Talk:Crowded House

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Crowded House (inactive)

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Australia: Melbourne / Music Mid‑importance

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Biography: Musicians

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Rock music Mid‑importance

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New Zealand: Music High‑importance

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Crowded House was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 18, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
September 9, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 17, 2009	Good article reassessment	Delisted
February 23, 2010	Good article nominee	Not listed
Current status: Delisted good article

Archives

1

Intriguer Timing

The section on the new album states it will be ready in June (it is now out) but more troubling it suggests it would be ready for the band's appearance at the West Coast Blues and Roots Festival in Perth. The Festival actually happened in February so while they may have been able to debut some of the songs, the album was still a few months away from release at that point. Not sure about how to go about making the necessary changes but I thought it should be mentioned here. 119.15.65.1 (talk) 05:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

An IP editor has been changing this article and Saturday Sun to say that Crowded House are a New Zealand band, based on a claim (in the Saturday Sun edit summary) that "they are based in New Zealand, and the frontman is a New Zealander". However, only the singer is from New Zealand - the other members are from Australia and the US, and the band formed in Melbourne. As such, I don't think it is right to choose one specific criterion and label the band with one specific nationality, and so I have removed the addition of "New Zealand" from the lead of this article - the article appears to describe the national origins of the band and its members quite adequately. Any comments? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I note that the IP who made the edit is from New Zealand -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the band were based in Melbourne in the earlier part of their career, but now are based in New Zealand. they formed after New Zealand band Split Enz disbanded. the band's frontman and songwriter Neil Finn is a New Zealander, and they refer to themselves as a New Zealand band. of course, the Aussies are going to claim Crowded House their own. but the Aussies do that to anything relating to New Zealand: they claimed our pavlova, they even recently claimed the All White's magnificent draw with Italy as a victory for "Australasia", not New Zealand.

I've found many sources that say Crowded House are a New Zealand band

http://www.last.fm/music/Crowded+House http://www.lyricsfreak.com/c/crowded+house/

even their myspace page says they're a New Zealand band: http://www.myspace.com/crowdedhouse

surely this is all the evidence I need?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the last.fm and lyricsfreak.com words seem to be a copy of your version of the Wikipedia article after you added "New Zealand" to the lead, so I think we have to discount those (and neither is a reliable source, as both are user-generated). If the band describes themselves as a New Zealand band, I think that would be fine. However, all I can see on their own Myspace page is the words "New Zealand" next to an image of an album cover, and that does not seem to be sufficient to define them as a New Zealand band. Can you provide any unequivocal statements by the band in which they call themselves a New Zealand band, or any reliable third party sources (not blogs, forums, or other sites that can be freely edited by anyone) that describe them as such? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I suggest you omit the anti-Australia rhetoric - that's only going to damage your own arguments, as Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written from a neutral point of view. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the albums have been recorded in new zealand as well. i'm guessing, Zebedee, that you are an australian yourself hence your anti-New Zealand rhetoric. why else would they have premiered their new album in Auckland town hall in April of this year? the list goes on. the only austraian member of the band doesn't even live in australia, he lives in Dublin!

hope i've made my argument clear

PS- "The success of Crowded House and Split Enz prompted the New Zealand Government, in June 1993, to recommend to the Queen to bestow an OBE upon Tim and Neil for their contribution to the music of New Zealand".[3][4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 09:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not Australian - you can tell that if you'd care to check my User page. Please have a read of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, and try to avoid making personal attacks. Please also try to remember that your personal reasoning is irrelevant - the content of Wikipedia articles should reflect what is said in reliable sources, and not the reasoned opinion of individual editors. I'll be happy for Crowded House to be described as a New Zealand band if you can provide reliable third-party sources that describe them as such -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment: You say "the only austraian member of the band doesn't even live in australia, he lives in Dublin!". However, I'm not arguing that the band is Australian, I'm just suggesting that it appears to be multi-national - it current has one NZ member (Neil Finn), one Australian (Neil Seymour), and two Americans (Mark Hart and Matt Sherrod) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted: I have reverted the latest change, which changed the lead to describe Crowded House as "primarily a New Zealand rock group", because that is personal judgment. We could only describe the band like that, especially in the lead, if they were actually described that way by multiple reliable sources. So if anyone wishes to add a specific nationality statement to the lead (or elsewhere in the article) in the light of the multi-national elements of the band's makeup and history, they need to find reliable sources that attest to the band being described that way -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've just been doing some more searching for sources, and I found a relevant discussion on the band's website from a couple of years ago - it's at [1]. As we can see from that, there was no clear agreement. I think the best comment was "I just don't think putting a nationality label on Crowded House is really necessary. I think they even said so themselves on a Jools Holland interview way back." -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

that's find, if for wikipedia purposes, you want to keep their nationality covert, but as far as I'm concerned they are a New Zealand band. the frontman has said himself that they are a New Zealand band. I have just emailed his advisor to see what he says, so the jury is out in this one until he emails me back :)

It's not about being covert, and "As far as I am concerned" is irrelevant - Wikipedia requires references from reliable sources (see WP:RS) in order add information to an article - the personal opinions of editors cannot be used, as that would be original work, which Wikipedia prohibits (see WP:OR). The reply to your email will be interesting, but even that cannot be used as a source for a Wikipedia article - unless Crowded House are publicly referred to as a New Zealand band and that is attested to by reliable sources, we cannot say so in the Wikipedia article. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i can see where you're coming from- it's not 100% clear, but they're definitely not an Aussie or American band. a lot of their songs are about New Zealand, they previewed their new album here first, and they recorded it here in Neil Finn's studio. sure, they may have been initially based in Melbourne but they are based in NZ now and well & truly a kiwi band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 09:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They recorded their first two albums in LA and their third album in Melbourne. It doesn't really matter as lots of bands record albums in different countries. The Police and the Stones recorded albums in Jamaica but it doesn't mean they are Jamaican bands. --Mutley (talk) 10:30, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm suggesting is that, in the absence of any definitive description in reliable sources, we should omit any nationality labels from the leads of the relevant articles (there's another album article that says "Australian", and I think that should be removed too - I'll be happy to do so when we are concluded here). It's too complex for a single label, and so a description in the body of the text saying where they were formed, the nationalities of the members, and where they are currently based (all of which can be supported with reliable sources), is a much better approach. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

is there a wiki project for New Zealand music articles? i notice down the bottom it says there's one for Australian music but there doesn't seem to be one for New Zealand. that's a shame for a country wwhere we are proud about our musical prowess

No, I can't see a NZ one either, and I agree it's a shame -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i noticed you have never been to NZ.. why not? is the travel time the issue?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 11:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a combination of time and money, and my limited supply of both - but both NZ and Oz are high on the list of places I'd like to visit -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

yes it is very expensive to travel across the world, but do come to NZ if you get the chance. beautiful country. can't wait for the rugby world cup here next year! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 12:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

yo zebsta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To the person that is arguing about Crowded House being a New Zealand band - anonymous @ 122.57.177.86 can you tell us exactly what part of the article your argument is about? The article says that the band was ** formed ** in Melbourne and it says ** origin** Australia which can be confirmed in the definitive reference of the band. Please point us to where it says that it is an Australian band. This topic was discussed shortly after the article was created and crops up every now and then. If you want to add a comment to the effect that they are now based in New Zealand please do so (citing refs of course). --Mutley (talk) 11:22, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. The IP editor in question has agreed that the band should not be specifically described as a New Zealand band (if not here, then on one of the other Talk pages that this got sidetracked to), and I think we have a reasonable consensus that they should not have a specific nationality label attached to them - statements regarding their origin, current base, and nationalities of the members can be made factually in the article. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the band formed in Australia, it would be considered an Australian band, especially since the band's original rhythm section was Australian (i.e. Nick and Paul), and we consider anything to be of where it formed, not from where the sum of its parts came from. Having said that, the band themselves claim no allegiance to any particular place, playing most of their gigs in Europe in their current incarnation. It'd be false to claim they're really from NZ, given that only Neil Finn is from there, and for the blip of time Tim and Eddie in the band also. I think "band formed in Australia whose members are from New Zealand, Australia and the United States" summarises it. If you don't want something clunky like that in the lead, don't put anything. --rm 'w a vu 08:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amen to that! The first paragraph says it all and in my view shouldn't be changed any more. Formed in AUS, led by someone from NZ, now made up of 1 NZ, 1 AUS and 2 USA. Time would be better spent adding new info (with citations) rather than fighting about nationality. At least no one has tried to claim CH are now American...give it time! Iangurteen (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Once again this problem has arisen with a contributor asserting that this is an "Australian - New Zealand" band. I have reverted this edit. The lead paragraph appears absolutely fine to me. It explains where the band was formed (Melb, Aus) and that it's leader, Neil Finn, is a New Zealander. With the line up now 1xNZ, 1xAus and 2xUSA this is surely adequate. CH are truly a global act! Can I suggest (again) that any proposed changes on this subject are put up for discussion on the talk page first.Thegraciousfew (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think part of the problem could be due to people getting Crowded House confused with Split Enz as most of the members of Split Enz are from New Zealand so it may be worth mentioning the next time someone changes the article.--Mutley (talk) 10:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the claim that they are an Australian band is absolutely absurd. Yes, they formed there because Finn was resident at the time as Split Enz fell apart, but they were always a vehicle for Finn’s music so the breakdown of members is largely irrelevant to this. Finn has hired and fired members over the years as he sees fit. They (he) have been resident in NZ for almost all their years, some 34 now, and Finn regards the band as a New Zealand artist. They were mostly US based between the time he formed the band and his relocation back to New Zealand. Logic can be a very distant friend sometimes on wiki.

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Use of past tense

Early on, this article tells that the band re-formed in 2006. Should it not then say "are a rock band" and not "were a rock band" in the opening sentence of the article?Vorbee (talk) 21:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Years active

How can Crowded House have 2020 as an active year? Sdreich (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sdreich:

Fixed Thank you, - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 23:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality compromise

I've been thinking about the best way we can incorporate nationality into the lead (and indeed, throughout the article). I think the best way to cover both origins would be to replace "Australian / New Zealand band" is to include "Oceanian" or "Australasian", but I'm open to other suggestions. Please discuss (and ping me if you reply). Sean Stephens (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reviving this discussion. I would support going the Bee Gees and omitting nationality altogether, if it weren't for the first source in the article with Neil Finn himself declaring them an Australian band whose songs were largely inspired by Melbourne. I suggest "Australian" since it's an official description from the leader of the band, but add a sourced note explaining the debate around their home country. ToQ100gou (talk) 09:19, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToQ100gou: I agree with labelling them Australian primarily based on Neil Finn's description. I'm sure some editors think that it doesn't matter because at this point most of the band's members weren't born in Australia but if somebody born in New Zealand calls the band they formed in Australia Australian, that's enough for me. Ss112 13:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, if the sole New Zealander in the band calls the band formed in Australia, that is two-thirds Australian, 'Australian', and says that many of their songs were inspired by Australia, then that should be enough, though I still think maybe the nationality debate should be mentioned somewhere if there are reliable sources. ToQ100gou (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]