Talk:Bildungsroman

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2018 and 18 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sleepvertical.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Capitalization

Why is the word inconsistently capitalized? Should it be capitalized or not? I don't think it should be, but I'm not sure. Spectralancer (talk) 04:38, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It should not be, per MOS:CAPS. ENeville (talk) 18:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It is capitalized by the Oxford English Dictionary. See: [1]. 32.218.33.5 (talk) 04:45, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The link leads to: "the book is a bildungsroman of sorts". This seems to be US usage (see link address above) and "The word Bildungsroman is typically capitalized because of its German origin (in German, all nouns are capitalized)"([2]). The full OED online, that I accessed from a Canadian university library, capitalizes the word. Rwood128 (talk) 00:32, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

How the word is capitalized in German (and the spelling of its plural) is not relevant to this page on English Wikipedia. It is common for English words that were taken from other languages to not follow all the grammatical and other rules of their parent language. The Encyclopaedia Britannica does not capitalize it, nor does the American dictionary Merriam-Webster. Also crucially, the relevant Wikipedia guideline specifies that literary genres are not capitalized. --Noren (talk) 23:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Translation to German possibly incorrect?

After looking at the german version (I'm a native german speaker), I think that the english article uses the wrong translation for "bildung". Instead of "education", the meaning in this case is most likely "formation"/"forming". http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=GI6fAA&search=Bildung It's a hard one to translate, but I think the ideas and connotations of the word "Bildungsroman" are better expressed by "novel of formation". A "Novel of education" would be the "Erziehungsroman", which deals with the ideal way to educate a person. The "Bildungsroman", however, doesn't deal with the education of the charachter, but instead with his "forming" and development. TheTrueRandomness (talk) 00:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC) This is correct; the English term "education" is far broader than what is meant by the German "Bildung" and "formation" is more accurate. The reflexive verb form "sich bilden," "to form oneself," is also useful here. I'm not a native German speaker, so TrueRandomness may have better suggestions here.--Kbrewer36 (talk) 02:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It is superfluous and disingenuous to suggest "citations needed" for examples of the Bildungsroman from 19th Century English writers onward. I suggest that bit of superfluousness be deleted, from what is otherwise a useful introduction to the genre. English is my first language. (...encompassing a PhD emphasizing modern literary tools for analysis: N.B., "A Concordance To The Poems Of Ben Jonson.")

German, with others, is perhaps my second; and I can assure Kbrewer, that a valid and common standard meaning of "Education" in English is often a subset of the larger phenomena he refers to. A subset of "Education" is indeed "formation", and many generations of literary critics have not been off-base by using Bildungsroman to represent in the individual depicted, a portion of education, and/or formation of personality and perspective.Sidney Orr (talk) 17:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Could "Construction Story" be an alternative translation? I also wonder if "novel" is adequately qualified here. A novel is a book containing a (single, book length (...)) story. I wonder if that is captured in "story" if what is meant is both the physical book and the story it contains?173.189.76.88 (talk) 16:06, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Harry Potter

Really? REALLY??? I think every example in that list that isn't cited should be removed.69.250.117.1 (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is, Harry Potter fits perfectly in with most all the listed characteristics listed. Sherick (talk) 05:04, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with those questioning the inclusion of Harry Potter. The character goes through several years at a school, true--but what 'growth' does he go through other than the physical? He knows more magic spells at the end than in the beginning, but what's different about his values or character? Another point (not Potter-related, but I didn't want to begin a new section): I'm surprised that the page uses "Tom Sawyer" instead of "Huckleberry Finn," particularly given that the specific features mentioned in that section appear to describe the latter novel more closely.Gheelnory (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

In Harry Potter, Harry changes significantly from the Philosopher's Stone to the Deathly Hallows. It seems impossible to think that anyone would ever consider the idea that Harry Potter is not an example of the Bildungsroman. One very clear example of this is his journey with death. At the end of the Deathly Hallows he realises that everything he has done in destroying the horcruxes has been in vain. He has gotten Voldemort closer to death, however he realises that he must die in order for Voldemort to die. There is a very significant growth in character if you look at the moments when he realises he has to die, where he realises that he is not supposed to fight death any longer, he's supposed to embrace it. Then if you look at after he has spoken with Dumbledore and has come back alive again, his whole way of thinking has changed. Instead of fearing death, he realises there is far worse in this world than dying. This is just one example of many throughout the books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.226.139.28 (talk) 07:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Salinger

Is Catcher in the Rye a bildungsroman?

Most definitely so.

Not really. I had to smile at the notion that Harry Potter is a bildungsroman. Very funny. When one talks about an education novel, one does tend to mean a character's sentimental education, not his literal one. Ah well. James James 09:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I came to this page to dispute the very same thing, Catcher is not a bildungsroman on many grounds but one can pithily sum it up in the fact that it all takes place at one point in his life, indeed over the course of a few days, whereas a bildungsroman should cover a lengthy span of life to see the character realised as a fully grown adult. Tony2Times 13:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Tom872 (talk · contribs) just reverted my removal of Catcher in the Rye, and I don't want to get into an edit war over this, so I'm bringing it here for broader attention... is this an accurate example of a bildungsroman? -- nae'blis _(talk) 04:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No. It is not. The events of two days, however eventful, are not equal in scope to the long, gradual process of maturation and self-cultivation described in true Bildungsromane. Any definition of the Bildungsroman that includes The Catcher in the Rye is too diffuse to be meaningful. Hubacelgrand (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've taught *Catcher* in a course on the Bildungsroman, but Tony2Times' point is well-taken. Re Harry Potter, Joyce's *Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man* focuses heavily on the main character's formal education, and is usually considered a Bildungsroman. *Harry Potter* might be dismissed on other grounds, though.--Kbrewer36 (talk) 02:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see Catcher as a Bildungsroman, because Holden Caulfield has serious personal/emotional problems, and does not progress. To the extent that I understand the novel, Holden "understands" society so well that he cannot make the kinds of rational adjustments needed to live in it. QED. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 14:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I tried to erase Catcher in the Rye. It is not a Bildungsroman but some troll put it back on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.172.193 (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

DOES IT HAVE TO HAVE ONLY A SINGLE PROTAGONIST?

OK. Harry Potter definitely looks like a Buildungsroman.The evolution of the hero is complete in the seven volume collection.But does Buildungsroman have to be the tale about a single hero undergoing metamorphosis or can One hundred years of solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez be termed as Buildungsroman?Olipou.kk (talk) 06:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Parvathi

Well, it needs to be one single book, and yes, a single protagonist, and the protagonist must reach wise mature adulthood within the book, via various trials or experiences. Softlavender (talk) 04:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Make the article better by looking at the german and the french article

The headline says it almost. This article is not good! The articles in french and german are much better. The easiest way to make this one better is to look at the other and learn from them. I cant do it because I am german and my english is not so good. I would suggest that someone, who is native english speaker but can understand german or french, does this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.32.206 (talk) 14:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to second this motion.--Awaler (talk) 19:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced examples

I'm wondering if only sourced samples, samples that have an attached ref from a useable source that says this work is an example of Bildunsroman, should be kept on the examples list. I noticed that there are a bunch of unsourced examples on that list and it seems improper to call something Bildunsroman just on the opinion of an editor although I can't remember the policy that backs that off the top of my head. Cat-fivetc ---- 03:26, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I removed all unsourced samples after I saw that there was already an HTML note giving fair warning that they'd be removed at any time. There's a few major works that I removed that should be added back if a source canb e found that confirms that they fall under Bildunsroman. The edit is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bildungsroman&diff=526824677&oldid=526782650 here, if anyone wants to go back and see what was removed. Cat-fivetc ---- 05:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

This issue has come up again since Cat-five's last comment and edit, even though the 'Examples' section explicitly asks for sources when it is edited, and several discussions on this Talk page and the Archive page seem to have resulted in a consensus to cut down the list and always provide sources for examples. I have provided sources for some of the major examples and removed all uncited ones. Charlios (talk) 03:08, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

What's the difference?

The article here states that a bildungsroman is a coming-of-age story, but up until a couple of days ago it also said (and the coming-of-age story article still does say) that bildungsroman is a subset of the genre.
So, is that no longer the case? Is bildungsroman just a technical term for/synonym of/pretentious way of saying “coming-of-age story”? Or does calling a story a bildungsroman add something to the description, in a way that that the English term does not? And if they are different, the article (in fact, both articles) should spell out for us simple folk what the difference is, and the copious "Examples" section should only include items that meet that criterion, and/or are actually described as such by a reliable source.
Also, the article states that the term was coined in 1819, and the birth of the genre dates from Weiland's novel of 1767, yet the coming-of-age story article, and the list here, have about a dozen examples that predate that; so how accurate in fact is that claim? Swanny18 (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

There seem to be two main issues here.

Firstly, I agree that the difference between a Bildungsroman and a coming-of-age novel, if there is any, needs to be made clear. The Catcher in the Rye and To Kill a Mockingbird, for example, are included despite not matching the definition of Bildungsroman given in this article (see discussion on The Catcher in the Rye above; the characters do not progress from youth to adulthood in the course of the novel) because the terms Bildungsroman and coming-of-age novel were used interchangeably in the source.

Secondly, I would argue that it makes sense for a term to only be coined after the first examples of the genre are published, but I see your point about the examples predating Wieland's novel. I cannot judge whether these are indeed classified as Bildungsromane in literary criticism, but given that no sources were provided for most of them, I would propose to delete them, along with all other unevidenced examples, to avoid further confusion (except for the precursors where sources are given). It is true though that Wieland's novel is considered the "first 'true' Bildungsroman" by many literary critics (and it would probably be easy to find more sources than the one provided), so examples identified as a Bildungsromane later on by individual authors might not necessarily contradict the current wording. Charlios (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Expanding Examples?

Would it be applicable to give examples of how the Bildungsroman works within the texts rather than just giving links to the page? Would anyone be opposed to extensively expanding the examples section to convey how the Bildungsroman functions within their respective stories? For example, if I expanded how important the Bildungsroman concept/genre is within Charlotte Brontë's Jane Eyre (with reputable scholarly sources of course). Perhaps this would invite others to expand on the other examples listed on the Bildungsroman and raise the class of the article? Sleepvertical (talk) 00:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The problem with this is that there are too many examples and new ones keep getting added, so the expansion might get a bit too extensive. However, a brief discussion of some of the most notable ones, such as the one you mention, might be a good idea. Harold the Sheep (talk) 22:29, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for responding Harold the Sheep! I think that is a fair compromise. Possibly creating a section of the most notable examples of the Bildungsroman. I certainly believe that Jane Eyre is one of the notable examples for various reasons (the novel is well read, has a lot of scholarship written on it, its major place in feminist literature, and so on...). I'd also love and encourage if others were willing to bring up what other examples they thought were most important. Perhaps the start of section that is 3-5 notable examples would work? With Jane Eyre being one and possibly the start. Thank you for your help and do you have any other suggestions?

Sleepvertical (talk) 00:10, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Jane Eyre is a good suggestion. Emile or Candide might be good as an early example of the genre. Maybe Great Expectations and a couple from the 20th and 21st centuries. I guess it doesn't particularly matter which ones, as long as they are well known and good for demonstrating the qualities of the article subject. Harold the Sheep (talk) 04:30, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I question the inclusion in 21st century examples of Words of a Shaman, by Nkwachukwu Ogbuagu (2019). All the recent examples have an independent source as reference to explain why they can be considered examples of Bildungsroman. Words of a Shaman links to a Goodreads page with one review, and no mention of the word "Bildungsroman". (Also the book and author have no Wikipedia page). RameausNiece (talk) 16:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Italic?

Why the term is Italic? — Hamid Hassani (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I would guess that it is because the Wikipedia Manual of Style demands that foreign terms that are not in common usage in English are italizised. Charlios (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Except that it further clarifies what it means by common usage and the English word bildungsroman qualifies - "Rule of thumb: do not italicize words that appear in multiple major English dictionaries." --Noren (talk) 00:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Engel

If anyone know what Engel citation should exist here, please help by adding it. Note a and Reference 5 both refer to Engel but there is no citation template or any other Engel on the page. —¿philoserf? (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

This seems to be have been resolved. The note and reference both refer to the Engel text in the bibliography. Charlios (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Fanny Hill??

How is a novel about a 14-year-old girl becoming a teenage prostitute a good example of a Bildungsroman?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.34.147.100 (talk) 10:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

There is, in fact, scholarly criticism describing Fanny Hill as a Bildungsroman, though I could not find many sources, so this might be disputed. I just added sources to the article. Charlios (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Anne of green gables

Described as a bildungsroman or novel of education in several articles 177.18.213.205 (talk) 18:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)