Talk:Killing Time

Build editor

While I appreciate Quasar has inside knowledge on this, given the interview explicitly says the levels were converted to the Doom level format, I do not see how a lack of Build level information in the finished source code contradicts the word of someone who was actually involved AT THE TIME. It would be no different than if the pre-ZX DEU builds of the 3DO levels were not archived. Further, Lutynski is not the only developer to refer to using Build in the game's development.

See here:  https://youtube.com/watch?v=_Us1MZ4yPC8&lc=UghxLv8K3McKDHgCoAEC&si=zWsQE4BzA8r9MoGB

Technopeasant1994 (talk) 08:17, 19 December 2024 (CST)

There is no evidence in any of the material I have (which includes over 40 CD-R images of every version of the games' development resources) that BUILD was ever involved. The BUILD editor and its map format were not open source at the time; the development team did not leave any evidence of access to the BUILD engine - its source code is not included. I believe they were either misinformed or misunderstood as to what technology they were working with at the time. Every bit of evidence I have suggests that the levels were created with a modified Doom editor, most likely a version of DEU - which was GPLv2 - which was used (without modifications) by the 3DO team as well. --Quasar (talk) 08:31, 19 December 2024 (CST)

Certainly interesting, but I admit I am bit puzzled by how the tools lead (as per interview AND credits) could be so unsure of what tools they used. For ease of anyone else reading, here is the full quote:

"Mainly, I supported the level designers by making tools they needed. Cleverly, we came up with re-using the Build engine's wonderful level editor (from Duke Nukem 3D) and converting those maps internally to our Doom-style map."

I am not sure if we could get in touch with Lutynski again and see if he has more information on the converter he says was used. If it was used immediately upon saving the maps it is possible no trace would survive. Technopeasant1994 (talk) 09:52, 19 December 2024 (CST)

This quote from Burger from the same interview seems to back up Quasar's contention.

"So there were many similarities, mostly because we were using DOOM level editors. So I had to read DOOM data, with a lot of extensions... My engine had a lot less limits than DOOM. Which was why we were able to do levels that would crash DOOM (We used DOOM when I was writing the new engine as a stop gap)"

I am going to email Lutynski for comment. Technopeasant1994 (talk) 10:47, 19 December 2024 (CST)

Clarification from Killing Time PC programmer

Hello! I would like to clear up any misconceptions around this issue as I, Michael Lutynski, was the programmer for the tools used during the development of Killing Time PC.

The Killing Time engine that powered the game that you all played was an in-house custom variant of the Doom engine used in the Jaguar port of Doom. The KT internal data structures were nearly identical to Doom's data structures with minor differences for extra abilities over Doom, such as teleportation tricks.

It would seem to make the most sense that the level designers would prefer to use a Doom-style level editor for the KT levels, but that did not happen. In the office, we relished playing LAN deathmatch Duke 3D games and soon found that the Build level editor was far superior to any Doom level editor we could think of.

In the interest of getting the game built and shipped as fast as possible, which meant appeasing the level designers, I was personally tasked with creating a command-line tool in C++ that took the Build level files and converted them to WAD files. Then a second, pre-existing tool was used to convert the WAD file to the engine-specific KT file format. That's all there is to it.

You won't find any code in the KT engine that indicates Build data structures, because they were all converted away with my tool.

Fun fact: before we settled on using the Build level editor, I was pushing to use Lightwave 3D as the KT level editor because one feature that we wanted in the KT engine was "level over level" stacking designs, which no level editor could do at the time. It was a major hack of the Doom-style rendering code, but the programmer thought it was feasible and would set us apart. However, there just was no time for it and the shipping deadline was coming up fast so that feature was axed. Stacking levels in Lightwave also wasn't as nimble production-wise as we'd like, another reason to get rid of this potential path. In the end, which amounted to a short conversation, speed and simplicity won, and the Build level editor worked out great for us. Back to Lightwave: I created a prototype tool that could take a Build level and convert it to a Lightwave file. It was a trip to be able to visualize Duke's levels in true 3-D and discover extra secret areas, which I used to my advantage in our LAN deathmatches :)

I've seen commentary on the preferences of the art assets used in the 3DO version versus the PC version. The PC assets were redone by Chad Max because the designer and artists were dissatisfied with some of the 3DO character assets (like the tickle clown) and decided to redo them all, but I believe in higher resolution. Chad also did all the music and sfx as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michaellutynski (talk • contribs) .

Thanks for chiming in! Forgive my skepticism, I usually assume devs will take the path of utmost least resistance w/o evidence to the contrary but this makes more sense. It's a shame that your tool doesn't seem to have survived in the backups :( A few of the discs wouldn't even mount, and of those that did, many had corrupt files, so the remaster project had to happen now or never, basically. --Quasar (talk) 05:16, 23 December 2024 (CST)

Some very interesting tidbits from an artist from the game! Thank you for this utterly bizarre trip down memory lane: Using the Doom Engine, and using the Build Editor to make levels. I for one would be VERY interested in your conversion tools and see how things were made back then. If anything, it may also help existing Build editor users to take a stab at Doom. It seems that (judging other games at the time) making converters from the major 3D rendering programs (like 3D Studio, Lightwave, etc..) was a easy way of getting to make maps for new games fast. Definitely a forgotten concept, at that. --Redneckerz (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2024 (CST)

3DO Campaign Routing

Posted these in the NightDive Studios official Discord server, mirroring them here because someone else suggested I add them to the page. IDK how to get the formatted wiki-ready (mostly because I don't want to remove my personal touch and wit) but I agree with the preservation angle so here yas goes. All entries are written verbatim to my comments.

1: Quickest route through the 3DO Actually, now that I think of it, is there a list detailing all the locations of the keys/vessels and what they requite for KT 3DO? All I remember is the quickest path to the end in Any% (Enter the sewers via the teleport in Pyramid of Pain, navigate to the Yellow-Green Key in Elevator Shoes, trek back through the sewers and exit via the courtyards, Unlock the east wing, complete the switch puzzles in Egyptian Switches and Pyroglyphics, get the Orange Key in Gangster U, use that to unlock the Green Key in Byron's Library, head on through to the Purple Key in the hedge maze, then unlock the and beat the game)

2: Observation on how a one-way shortcut in Pyramid of Pain: Osiris Hunting works as a sequence break Without the sewer shortcut, the progression makes more sense. You'd need the Yellow-Orange Key from Columns of Seth, to unlock the upper west hall and by extension the Blue Key in Room Service 4 Tess, which then allows you into Elevator Shoes (Meaning you have to explore a good chunk of the east wing and visit the upper west hall an extra time). Problem is, one of the two maps connected to Columns of Seth is Pyramid of Pain, the very same level with the sewer shortcut. Even with this stipulation, three keys are skippable: Red Key (Unlocks the Violet Key and Chest Vessel) Violet Key (Unlocks the Arms Vessel) Yellow Key (Unlocks the secret upper east hall) Not to mention the fact you don't need any of the vessels to compete the game

3: Detailing which levels are mandatory and which can be skipped Thusly there are levels you can skip entirely: Pyramid of Pain: Osiris Hunting (Tess' Temple is mandatory due to being the only way to access Dining Hall: Lingering Guests and by extension the kitchen maps) Circus Mortus (Merely serves as a connection between Tess' Temple and Columns of Seth, can be swapped for Pyramid of Pain: Osiris Hunting depending on route taken) Ballroom: Ghostclock (Story location, lets you loop back around to Columns of Seth from Pleased to Meat You) Dankmosphere, Necropolis, Sewer Rats, & Have A Ball (skipped by backtracking through the wine cellar after getting the Yellow-Green Key) Assyrian Experience: Go East (skipped by solving the puzzle in Egyptian Switches) Old Foundations: Tess's Secret Path (skipped by backtracking through the hedge maze after getting the Purple Key) Mike's Retreat: Guard No More & Bonus Blast: The Roaring Twenties (Secret maps) And with Sewer Shortcut: Tess' Temple, Columns of Seth, Dining Hall: Lingering Guests, Hell's Kitchen: Chef's Night Out, Pleased to Meat You, Parlor Games: 20 Ways To Die, Hopscotch on the Rocks, & Lydia's Mummy Dearest can now be skipped (due to the aforementioned Sewer Shortcut) >Pyramid of Pain: Osiris Hunting is now mandatory ('cause that's where the shortcut is) >Dankmosphere, Have a Ball, & either Necropolis or Sewer rats are now mandatory (Without the Blue Key the only way to exit the wine cellar and sewers after getting the Yellow-Green Key is through the surface tunnel to Outer Patio: Invitation to Death)

Cheers. MargaretThatcher (talk) 11:14, 10 April 2026 (CDT)

Corrections:

• Assyrian Experience: Go East is always required due to having the Orange Key.
• Another shortcut exists in Maids in the Shade that takes you to Assyrian Experience: Go East. This cuts out Pyramid of Pain: Osiris Hunting, Dankmosphere, Necropolis, Sewer Rats, Have A Ball, and Egyptian Switches, at the expense of adding Old Foundations: Tess' Secret Path due to lacking the Yellow-Green Key.

Cheers once again. MargaretThatcher (talk) 02:13, 11 April 2026 (CDT)

Weapon and enemy stats

Writing these down in case we ever write down the enemy stats. It's a Google Doc because of how big it is. https://docs.google.com/document/d/11DI_1QehjOa3jW28GzZOUHWR907hRpes_0VGPo5QxZ8/edit?usp=sharing Not sure how the Damage variable enemies have is translated to the damage you take due to KT changing damage taken depending on player difficulty (and that's before even getting into the inscrutable workings of P_BurgerRandom). MargaretThatcher (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2026 (CDT)