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https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ADVANCEDWDGANN/conversations/messages/1040

Here is the picture. AB swing was used for fan construction and it projected point C.

The secret is to know which combination of lines is important per situation, what to look
first, second,...

It works every time the same way, but in different variations.

Most people get lost in lines and misuse them. They are action/reaction lines, not your
fantasy lines.
That's the basic idea.

Those should be constructed first to grasp the pattern, and then point per day angles
should be constructed.

That proves to be very effective.

If you do astrology, make astro chart for point A and another for point B, measure the
distance between Merc on first chart and second. Project arc into the future
and see Sun hitting that degree at point C. To figure smaller moves make astro chart for
every reversal and find moon pattern.

Can't say more than that. That's enough said to put Gann educators out of Biz or you
never learn even if you hire an educator.
Do your homework.

////////// olga morales

For instance Earth moves 1 degree per day so you plot $1 $10 10cent per day etc. Venus
moves what... 360/225days = $1.60 $16 16 cents etc. per day. This is what Lorin means
when he says: "S&P is moving at the speed of Venus". Some people say price bounces in
a channel formed by the slower moving outer planets at the speed(s) of the faster moving
inner planets. Perhaps is does for some issues.

One thing to keep in mind is the solar system does not stop moving for weekends and
holidays so if you do this right, your speed lines will be discontinuous on a trading day
chart.

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There are number of ways to use Gann lines:
One is relative, shown in recent post - means relative to the last price swing, where line
connecting swing high and swing low =1/1 in relation to the next swing.
The other one is kosher Gann, where 1/1 slope = 1 point per trading day. That's what you
are talking about.
Also there is a simple way of constructing those 1point per day angles even your software
isn't designed for that.

Here is how to do that:

There are about 250 trading days in a year, that means 1/1 line will travel 250 points per
year. So just draw a line from the first date of one month to the first date of the same
month but in next year from 0 to 250. If you look at it that way, it will be easy and
accurate enough because you deal with multi-month average.

Software isn't really a limitation. Your mind is.

According to Gann those are just the mathematical averages. It isn't necessary to make
1X1 look 45 degree geometrically on chart. As long as 1X1 retain 1 point per trading day
ratio you can resize the chart on your screen the way you want and angle would be valid
as long as it keeps aspect ratio. So it isn't actual 45*, rather virtual or mathematic.

Even lines drawn in latest excel keep aspect ratio with the chart.
That what it is - the aspect ratio, not geometrical angle.
What's so difficult to understand?

In similar manner you can construct any angle:

Let's say you want some exotic Venus planetary trend line. Let's say you decided go
Galactic, become sort of GalActor of the stock trade. Wow, that's like from sci-fi movies!
At least sounds cool. Do you think you need a special ware to look that cool? No. Just use
your brains, it's plain arithmetic - 5th grade or so:
Look up astronomical year tables:
Earth/Sun year 365 1/4 days per 360 degree. Means 360/365.25=0.9856
points per calendar day or simply draw a square 1 year long and $360 or $3.6 or $0.36,
etc, points high(depending on the market). Diagonal would be a Sun planetary line.

So what about Venus? Venus year is 0.62 earth or it would be a 1/0.62-1.6129 times
sharper line - 360X1.6129=580.64/year.
So here is your yearly average Venus speed, draw $580X1year square and use diagonal.
Real easy at least to construct and look cool.
Making money will take more then that.

Squaring time with price means several things in Gann's writing.

At certain places he refers to linear squaring - #days=#points in 1/1 ratio or other natural
ratios.
The other squaring concept refers to sq9 and to algebraic squares.

Last one is the most mysterious. Even Gann fully understood it he never clearly spelled it
out. Besides practical implementation would require modern computer technology as
relations are non linear and would be very difficult to draw on paper or calculate by hand
at times of Gann. All he came with is Sq9 and hexagon charts.

That's easy and works on swings.

But the true power is in merging both - linear and non linear concepts. I didn't see anyone
get to that point. At least it isn't published.
They tried in Gann trader something like that, but I don't think they connected all the
dots. At least nice try.

It is still a relatively new field. There are many white spots.

/////////////

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ADVANCEDWDGANN/conversations/messages/1
719

Take your astro prog & alter the ASPECT settings such that have a 3 deg orb with angles
(in degrees) thus:
24
48
72
96
120
144
168
Your astro chart will now show you all the harmonic aspects (at 24 degree steps) for any
given date using William Gann's schemata of Wheel of 24.

Now take a look at next week (W/E 27/11/04) with aspects set like this - noting also the
Mercury Pluto transit and the Venus Uranus trine.
Happy trading!

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/208

I need to give a little history of "Murrey Math". "Murrey Math” is based on a course
written by W D Gann. When Murrey put his mother into a rest home, he found the course
when he cleaned out her house. He used this material as the basis for “Murrey Math". In
the early days, he gave Gann credit for the material.
As the years passed, Murrey has "forgotten" where the ideas came from :-)
There are several ideas in the course which Murrey did NOT understand correctly. That
is why some of the techniques seem great and some seem a little "strange". The starting
point for the 4th quarter is actually the midpoint between the Earth's perihelion and
aphelion. This date is approximately October 2nd. The date can be shifted due to trading
days or lunar aspects (Full/New Moons, etc) which occur close to this date. Murrey’s
"birthday, etc" is pure nonsense. If you have a copy of this particular Gann course you
know EXACTLY where "Murrey Math” came from. I have "Murrey Math" charts which
I drew over 10 years before I ever saw the "Murrey Math" manual :-)

Best wishes,

Bonnie Lee Hill

This was a course taught one-on-one to a very small group of people. This course has
never been publicly printed.
In order to take the course, you submitted your natal information to Gann who then
decided IF he would teach you. The price was quite high for this course.

Best wishes,

Bonnie

Rule #1: Plot a stock/commodity in the units in which it is traded. Murry breaks this rule
in a BIG way. He wants to plot everything in the range from zero to $100. That makes the
charts for things like sugar look VERY silly. THM also plots commodities like wheat in
zero to $100. When you draw the charts, wheat walks right though the middle of the
Circles of Conflict. This PROVES that the scale is wrong. If you plot wheat prices using
zero to 100 CENTS, the price action looks much better. Bottom line, PLOT a thing in the
units you use to TRADE the thing :-)

Rule #2: How the starting dates for the four quarters are aligned. Murrey did not
understand this, and/or did not want to make it too obvious to the reader. Murrey Math
students have to contact THM once a year to be TOLD the start of the fourth quarter.
They wait with baited breath for THM's decree :-)

Rule #3: What price range to put on a chart. I can't explain it all here.

Several other basic rules.

Over 5 years ago, I sent THM a letter in which I listed over 60 errors in his book -- typos,
math errors, and errors in technique.
He ignored my letter, and never corrected a thing. I put up MY web pages on "Murrey
Math" before THM put up his first web site.
I attempted to provide something which would allow the reader to understand WHAT he
was trying to learn.

The original Gann course is not for sale at any price.

Best wishes,

Bonnie

Actually, quite a few courses/methods were developed by Gann, and have rarely/never
been seen by the public. Today several of these are stored in "the chest" (if you know
what I mean :-)

All researchers do the same thing. A few months ago, I wrote a long message on the natal
wheat chart at WITS. That message was only the preface to a "book" about wheat which
is stored in six 3-inch binders. That is one of my "courses" which has never been seen in
public :-)

Best wishes,

Bonnie Lee Hill

How have I gotten my material?

1. I have studied Gann for over 20 years

2. I live "close" to Gann's home
3. I have goodies to trade
4. I belong to several private networks
5. I am willing to buy "a pile of papers" in order to find a gem

Best wishes,

Bonnie Lee Hill

Yes, I agree that you must learn Astrology in order to understand Gann. Even Gann's
more technical books have phrases such as "Cardinal Cross". Without studying
Astrology, how can you hope to understand what Gann meant?

> Also would you recommend the Baumring course offered by SSI as
> a source of learning Gann secrets.
I would read the books on Gann's Reading List before I studied the Baumring course.

Best wishes,

Bonnie

There is a very simple reason as to why you are confused about how to define Murrey's
8ths. He is NOT consistent in how he does this. His software can be even MORE
inconsistent :-)

Let's pretend we have a stock which trades at less that $100 dollars. We know we quote
the price in dollar and cents. Therefore, the LARGEST square we could draw would be
one which showed the range from $0 to $100. However, either the paper would need to
be VERY big, or the plot would be a tiny wiggly line somewhere
on the page :-) We know that this large square is divided into 8 sections -- the lines are at
$0.00, $12.50, $25.00, $37.50, $50.00, $62.50, $75.00, $87.50, and $100.00.

So, let's save a little paper, and figure out WHERE in that big square our stock is trading.
Let's assume it is at $39.
The price is less that $50.00 and more than $25.00.
The next most reasonable chart would be drawn with the top line at $50.00
and the bottom line at $25.00. You will find that most of the time, charts with the ODD
lines at the top and bottom seem to just work better :-) Our price of $39 sits a little above
the middle of the chart. We will also have to set the time frame, but I am not worrying
about that at the moment. However, if we are near the middle of the time frame, we
DON'T want the price in the middle of the chart. This would put the price in the centre of
the BIG central Circle of Conflict -- a definite no-no :-)

The chart that runs from $25.00 to $50.00 is 1/4th the size of our big $0.00 to $100.00
(the REAL chart). We should always keep this REAL chart in the back of our mind. This
second chart may be great for daily price bars, but it is TOO big
for shorter term trading. Again, we either use VERY BIG paper, or we use a portion of
that price range. As the range gets smaller and smaller, we can't always keep the
odd/even relationship we started with. However, we CAN remember what numbers were
important from the BIG chart.

Let me write out a list of prices with odd/even characteristics:

9th line, Odd: $100.00 -- $50.00 -- $43.75 -- $40.62

8th line, Even: $87.50 --
7th line, Odd: $75.00 -- $43.75 -- $40.62 -- $39.06
6th line, Even: $62.50 --
5th line, Odd: $50.00 -- $37.50 -- $37.50 -- $37.50
4th line, Even: $37.50 --
3rd line, Odd: $25.00 -- $31.25 -- $34.37 -- $35.94
2nd line, Even: $12.50 --
1st line, Odd: $0.00 -- $25.00 -- $31.25 -- $34.37

You will notice that $37.50 is an important price in ALL the chart ranges listed above. It
is an important price in $0-100, and so we kept it as an important price in $40.625-
$34.375. We are CONSISTENT in the importance we attach to the 8ths.

As we move to smaller and smaller price ranges, there are two ways of looking at the
operation. Number 1: we are saving paper by only printing a portion of the BIG CHART.
Number 2: we are holding a magnifying glass over our BIG CHART and looking at only
a tiny portion. However, the BIG CHART is always there, and we don't change our
ranges so that we violate the characteristics of that BIG CHART.

You can find the Murrey divisions color coded at my web site. The
URL is http://www.flash.net/~blhill/pages/murrey.html

Best wishes,

Bonnie

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/278

Yes. Support and resistance in price can be calculated by measuring the difference
between the current price and some historical extreme and converting the result to an
angle using the square of 9. This was the basis of my approach to markets for quite a
while. One can build a successful trading method around this. Calculating support and
resistance in this way also led me to some important breakthroughs in understanding
some subtle points about the use of the square of 9.

However, what one would really like to know is the magnitude of the bounce to expect
once a support or resistance level is hit. I was only able to determine this after I learned
how to square time with price. In my opinion time plays no independent role in
determining market swings; it does however provide important information when
coordinated properly with price calculations via the square of 9.

Carl

The magnitude of the bounce is determined by the magnitude of the historical high/low
squaring current price & time. Concentrate on calculating inner angles
of the square of nine not outer(Carl provided the formula of outer angles in post 252).
(((square root of time diff in 2 dates) - (square root of price diff)) / .25) * 45.

Paras in post #284 gave a formula for "inside angles".

This formula differs from the one for ordinary angles in the square of 9 which I posted in
post # 252 in four ways, the second of which is only cosmetic.

First, Paras' formula looks at the difference of square roots instead of square roots
themselves; this is necessary if one is to compute the angle between price and time.

Secondly, instead of multiplying the difference between square roots by 180, Paras'
formula first divides by 1/4 and then multiplies by 45; this is only a cosmetic difference
because the result is the same as if we had just multiplied by 180.

Third, Paras doesn't subtract 225 from the result. This means that in contrast to the square
of 9 I use, Paras' formula places the squares of natural numbers on the 0 and 180 degree
angles.

Finally, Paras doesn't reduce the result "mod 360" to be sure that the answer is a number
between 0 and 360. I think this was just an oversight.

I don't use this "inner angle" formula in my work because I think it is important to
subtract 225 and thus put the squares of natural numbers on the 315 and 135 degree
angles.

Carl

I have yet to encounter an example of a market or stock that doesn't respond to support
and resistance calculated by squaring price with time in the square of 9.

Of course, a very thinly traded stock or commodity might fail this test but I don't pay
attention to these.

I am inclined to think that some sort of natural law is at work, but I can't for the life of me
imagine what it might be.

I did correspond for a while with a former member of the CBOT who used techniques
similar to mine. He was convinced that the only explanation for the square of 9's success
was manipulation. He believed that all markets were controlled by a gigantic, world-wide
financial conspiracy who manipulated markets for their own benefit.
I can understand why he believed what he did because of the uncanny performance of
one particular method of squaring price with time.
Moreover, one finds symbols which refer to the square of 9 and to this method on all
major exchanges in the Western world. Typically these take the form of a square divided
by two diagonal lines, a square divided into 4 smaller squares, oblique architectural
references to the number 45 and representations of the signs of the zodiac.

Personally, I don't believe in conspiracies. My opinion is that such a large conspiracy

could never keep itself secret for long. Too much money and power would be at stake.

Carl

> Hi Paras,
> Thankyou for sharing the information
> regarding the inner angle
> formula (below),...it was impressive that you knew
> of this & pointed this
> out while Carl had not .
> I wonder if I can ask you a question regarding
> your post below from GG.
> When you say the magnitude of the bounce is
> determined by the magnitude
> of the historical high/low squaring current price &
> time...I am trying to
> understand the full meaning of this statement.
> Would I be correct in saying that if the inner
> angle is 90 degrees (or a
> multiple thereof...then the magnitude of the bounce
> will be maximum ..since
> price /time are squared...strong bounces will also
> occur from multiples of
> 45 degrees....but the further the inner angle ls
> from a multiple of 90 (or
> 45 degrees)..the smaller (proportionally) is the
> bounce expected.
> Or is it only correct to derive Price time
> squared info from the inner
> angle (ie if close to a 90 degree multiple)...but
> distance from a 90 degree
> multiple is not proportional to the size of the
> expected bounce...ie I was
> wondering if the degree of the bounce or
> size/magnitude of the expected
> bounce was quantifiable from the inner angle number.
> For example .I did a calc this weekend & the inner
> angle was 92 degrees..so
> I would expect & important low at this point (it was
> calc on a low on 21/9
> for an Australian stock that I follow)
> But consider 2 other make believe answers just to
> illustrate my question
> ....one the inner angle is 32 degree while second
> example the inner angle is
> 85 degrees.....Can we say the bounce from the second
> inner angle (assuming
> it was true) would be stronger than a bounce from a
> 32 degree inner angle,
> because 85 degrees is closer to a multiple of 90
> degrees? ..or am I trying
> to read to much into the inner angle information.
> Thanks again for providing the "inner angle formula"
> Regards
> Michael

Michael,
Let me be honest here. I have not found a single method on Square of 9 which tells me
the magnitude in price and time going forward. Then again I have not learned all 14
ways. What I know from very credible sources from the Street is that the magnitude can
be calculated by the proportion of the pivot you are squaring the price and time with. If
you square it with bigger pivot then you get a bigger turn and so on. Then again this is
one technique. Other one is as you pointed out that 90,180,270... are stronger than 30s

As I mentioned before that there are 8 + 6 = 14 different ways you can calculate from
sq9. Above technique is only part of one way you can find price and time targets.

Where can you find all 14 techniques ?

Well, you have work the commodity pits - if you can pay for the seat : - )

Paras

Paras,

You have lost me here. I asked a simple question as to where you discovered there were
14 different ways to square time and price. I'm assuming your "8+6=14" has some
relevance here? Perhaps referring to 8 time and 6 price techniques?? But your reference
to the commodity pits and of course your NON answer, is actually the response I
expected. People love to give hints on these groups to tease, then we often find there isn't
much to back it up. To suggest an answer to my question will come by buying a seat on a
commodity exchange is the most ludicrous answer I have ever heard. That certainly
would be news to WD Gann and most other knowledgeable people on time/price
squarings.
I was hoping you'd be more mature and perhaps reference a book(s) or course or simply
hard work at expanding upon previous persons work...but no...you managed to stay at the
level of most people who have propaganda to spread.....that doesn't raise your respect
amongst people here, it does the exact opposite...perhaps you might like to contemplate
that.

Adrian

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/20

Good Morning Dr. Narayan,

1.) a. "Converting to degrees" is done by taking the time of a swing and multiplying it
by 180. This will give you the Time Angle of that swing in degrees.
b. "Converting to degrees" can also be done by taking the square root of the price
distance of a swing and multiplying it by 180. This will give you the Price Angle of that
swing in degrees.
2.) "Mod 360" simply means, if the angle you get from the above calculations is greater
than 360*, like 420, 720, etc..., then you want to divide that huge angle by 360 to see how
many 360's their are in that huge angle. Then subtract out all of the whole 360's and keep
only the fraction of the remaining 360 that is left over.
Example: Say you have a huge angle of 540*. You want to get the angle down to
something less than or equal to 360*. So, divide by 360*, (540*/360*) = 1.5, then
subtract out the 1 whole 360*, (1.5 - 1) = 0.5, this leaves .5 of one 360* which is gives
you (.5 x 360*) = 180*, and this is your answer. 180* is the angle you want to keep!
Hope this clears it all up for you. :-)
Carson

To briefly summarize (at least my understanding) of the concept behind this..during the
1920's & 30's there were several folks (of whom Gann was one) who observed that there
was a relationship between price moves and the square root of prices. Gann further fine-
tuned this idea by looking at the problem of predicting price moves in geometric terms of
circles, rectangles, triangles, etc. The square of 9 chart serves a couple of purposes along
these lines. First, it is a square root calculator (which came in handy before the days of
computers). It also, however, arranges these "squares" in various angles and geometric
forms.

ONE such geometric construct in the chart is a circle within a square. To illustrate, look
at the chart and find the number 21 in the lower right hand corner of the second square.
Now take the square root of this and add 2 and square the result. The answer
(approximately) is 43, which is located in the lower right hand corner of the THIRD
square, 360 degrees OUT (or up) from 21. This is the circle idea (360
degrees in a circle). Percentages of this circle are of course also located along the square.
Gann (and others of that era) observed that price frequently moved in increments of the
square roots of price. And that's what the square of nine chart is designed to represent.
You can create your own (more accurate) chart by using a spreadsheet to take the square
root of a pivot low/high and add or subtract the
relevant factor (from .25 for a 45 degree move to 2 for a 360 degree move) and square the
result.

The above explains WHY the poster used 2 for the cycle. A close examination of prices
for ANY chart shows that there are other factors besides 2 which are also relevant. That,
in a nutshell, is SOME of what the chart is all about. Gann, it turns out, was FULL of
observations on price moves, some of which are truly startling. Take a look at Michael S
Jenkins Chart Reading for Professional Traders (all of the techniques in the book came
from Gann and those are only the beginning).

In addition to Jenkins, other sources that I've found helpful are the egroups here. Just do a
search for Gann and examine the archived messages. You'll find many other ways to use
the chart. Other than Jenkins (and a few others), I'd be suspicious of some of the books
and software available until I was more acquainted with the subject.
Gann tends to attract the weirdest of the weird (no offence) and it seems most have felt
the need to write a book describing their interpretation of the mystical meanings behind
Gann's theories.

In general, keep in mind that most if not ALL of Gann's theories are solidly based on
growth/decay models of trading markets. THAT's why the square roots, divisions of the
range, etc work so well. NOT because Gann was divining some tunnel in the sky crap. Its
amusing but largely junk. IMHO, of course.
Carl

One approach is to look at price movement through a division of the range. Gann mainly
wrote about this from a highest to lowest range (from what I understand) but other ranges
work very well. Applying Gann's rules about the different price behaviours at these
divisions can put these swings into a perspective that makes a great deal of sense.

To answer your question about accounting for major swings in price...I think you need to
first understand HOW trading markets grow & decay & WHY Gann/Elliott analysis
works at all.

IMHO the reason that any of this works is that it is capturing a snapshot of the "golden
spiral" which explains this movement. The reason to look a snapshot rather than the spiral
itself is that the spiral is subject to a great deal of "torque" from indigenous & exogenous
factors and is ALWAYS twisting, turning & reversing direction. (So, analyst reports on
the semiconductor sector, for instance, can send prices in a completely different direction
& are an exogenous factor). However, the principle behind the golden spiral is that ALL
price movement is related to previous price moves (that's the reason that moving
averages, for instance, can sometimes be effective for future price moves.) This
relationship is what square roots, divisions of the range, Gann angles, fib analysis, elliott
waves, etc. is capturing.

Swings move in odd directions and mostly with a lack of seeming direction because they
are accounting for the actions/reactions of a diverse group of traders, each with his/her
own mindset. You can NEVER hope to understand where price is going specifically, but
you CAN hope to understand where price has been and the future relationships that that
might present (and, once again, that's where `these techniques come into play)

As for Gann's astronomical (not astrological) work, I have no question that it CAN work.
But the REASON for its effectiveness, IMHO has nothing to do with astrology,
mysticism, etc. Instead, EACH planet is on a patterned course through the universe.
These patterns are rhythmical & consistent & have fixed relationships. They can be
reduced, in other words, to mathematical formulas. Where these formulas HAPPEN to
interact with the growth/decay "Golden Spiral" is where you can get action. There's a
BIG difference between this, however, & claiming that "the influence of Saturn is
causing traders and investors to buy IBM". The end result, of course, is the same. But its
happening for an entirely different reason. Not understanding this causes folks to (with all
due respect to the Tunnel in the Air group here) invent all kinds of misleading crap.

Put another way, IF the movement of the planets was totally random AND planet
trajectories continued to interact with trading markets, THEN I'd believe in some
astroLOGical connection. Such is not the case

Carl

Dear Carson,

Thanks for your kind answer to Dr. Narayan's question on converting to degrees. As a
dedicated Square of 9 student, I understand the reason for converting Price and Time to
degrees (to evaluate both these variables in the same unit of measurement). What I'm
racking my brains on is the definitive meaning of "squaring" Price and Time. In other
words, what condition(s) constitute a bona-fide squaring of Time and Price? Perhaps I
can better explain myself via an example.

If we take the S&P 500 Cash Index (SPX)... on 3/22/01, the SPX made a Bottom at
1081.19. Then 61 calendar days later on 5/22/01 it made a Top at 1315.97. Based on
Gann's slogan of "When Price and Time are Squared, the Trend Changes", we can
rationalise that some kind of squaring occurred on 5/22/01 (because the trend changed!).

If I apply your degree conversion methodology to the above example I get the following:

Time in Degrees = 61cd X 180 = 10,980; Mod 360 = 30.50 Degrees

Price in Degrees = 1315.93 - 1081.19 = 234.74; then...
SQRT of 234.74 = 15.321; then 15.321 X 180 = 2757.78; then...
Mod 360 = 2757.78/360 = 7.6605; 7.6605 - 7.0 = 0.6605; then...
360 X 0.6605 = 237.78 Degrees

Now Time Degrees = 30.5 and Price Degrees = 237.78; What is the indication in these
two results that Time and Price have indeed squared? (we know it has because the trend
changed!) Again, what is the definitive indication that Price and Time have squared?

Greatly appreciate any additional insights,

Still toiling away...

Prakash

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/321

Members,

I've been applying these calculations to the bean market with some success and some
head scratching. Once I found the time degree, if space or price was off on a hard aspect I
reversed engineered the price degree based on the number of 360's I was removing to
arrive at the exact number that would square price with the time degree. But some ?'s
started poping up. How much time and or price movement did I have from the last low or
high ... ect.? It was tough to tell from just the degree numbers.

So then I remembered what I learned from reading some of Granville Cooley's work and
that is. If there is a relationship between two numbers and if that relationship is valid
across all numbers, then it must be there in the smallest numbers.

Now before I go on to what I found. Have any of you ever wondered why the even
squares didn't fall on an angle line on the traditional square of 9 chart. I myself just
excepted the explanations I've read. But in the back of my mind I always wondered why
it had to be that way. well if you start with 1 as the first number it just works that way.
But with zero occupying the first block then both even and odd squares are 180 degrees
apart. This is what I discovered when I worked with Carl's calculations on the smallest
numbers. What I was looking for initially was how many days or points was 360 degrees.
1 = 315*
2 = 29.55*
3 = 86.76*
4 = 135*
5 = 177.49*
6 = 215.90*
7 = 251.22*
8 = 284.11*
9 = 315*
As you can see 1 and 9 both odd sq's are at 315, 4 a even sq is now
at 135 which is 180* away. But lets go on.

10 = 344.20*
11 = 371.99*
I stopped there, knowing my number I was looking for was between 10 and 11. so I
reversed engineered the math. I took 360+225/180 left me with 3.25, resquared that
number and got 10.5625. I then got out my square of 9 chart and found the number 10. I
noticed 27 is one cycle away and thought then that well 27.5625 must be 720 degrees of
movement. All one has to do is sqrt that number and you have your answer.

Anyway by applying what I now know I was able to easily find every turn in may beans
and understand the squaring. At first I couldn't find the exact square on the lastest low
until I worked with the contract low. It's relationship to the low is an exact square with
Carl's calculation. Now as far as one's ability to project future
turns with this method I believe you'll have to be intimate with that market. Know
through back testing and lots of note taking to determine a markets movements in not
only reactions but bull and bear runs.

Stuart

I don't claim to be expert in the use of the Sq of 9 by any means, but I too have run across
some of the difficulties you mention. You say you picked a high and a low. I don't think
every high and low are related to each other by time/price, but swings are related to some
previous high/low by squaring. I have found it useful to calculate price and time from
several previous swing points - e.g. in an uptrend, calculate from major lows, retracement
lows, previous highs, etc. to find a relationship. Which point creates the T/P square may
have a lot to do with the overall structure of the trend - is this an intermediate wave or the
culmination of a major advance, etc. Retracement rallies may eventually square out with
previous highs within the larger trend, etc.

I just sat down with a bond chart from 1995 last night and worked out some of the
squaring in that major advance. Most highs had a relationship with the major trend low,
but some were also related to previous swing lows. Retracements seemed to vary
relationships with the previous swing, previous retracements, etc. I found the final top in
1996 to be related to the previous intermediate low, but not in any neat fashion with the
big low of July 1995. I have more work to do, but this opened up some new lines of
inquiry for me in trying to figure out how to anticipate the length of moves, expected
retracements, etc.

Another help in "finding the square" was Stuart's point about projecting price levels from
the known Time angle. I found that relationships that did not seem to be related at first
glance could be seen in a better light when I calculated that the ideal square to the time
angle was really only 2-3 ticks away from the actual price move. The math can make it
look like a bigger miss than it actually is (Gann's "lost motion").

Hope this helps in some way. I would love to hear what others have found in their travels
with the Sq9.

Greg Blus

thanks Stuart

What I have done so far for bonds is use number of ticks travelled as the price move to
sqrt. Being fluent in bond-ese, I use the decimal equivalent of each price (e.g. 111-17 =
111.531, 98-1 = 98.031) to figure the number of points in decimal and multiply by 32 (#
ticks in a point) to get total ticks. Normal people just have to remember that the contracts
trade in 32nds when calculating the difference in prices.

Example: 104-11 to 102-17 is 58 ticks. 104.344 - 102.531 = 1.813 x 32 = 58.016 (diff

due to rounding to 3 decimals). Or, 11 ticks down to 104, 32 ticks down to 103, 15 ticks
(32 - 17) down to 102-17. 11+32+15 = 58.

For bigger moves, I plan to examine number of points travelled and whether these square
with weekly or monthly time counts. I'll post results if I find anything of interest.

Greg

OK how about this? 10411-10517= 58tics. Square root of 58 = 7.615.

Add 1 and resquare 8.615 = 74.2. 9411-10200 today's low was 75 tics.

Square root of 75 = 8.66 x180=1558.84-225=1333.84MOD=253.84.

Number of days from 1/16(9411high)-1/23(10200low)=7.
Square root of 7 = 2.64 x 180=476.2-225=251.
Is that close enough?
I don't think today's low is supposed to hold though. I was thinking of a low this
weekend.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/329

While doing research on W. D. Gann in the Boston libraries recently, I

came across a copy of Karl Anderson's "Astrology of the Old Testament
or the Lost Word Regained" (1892) in Widener Library at Harvard. It
was given to the Harvard library by the author and dedicated to "the
students."
The title interested me immediately, because it embraced: a) Gann's
now-noted enthusiasm for astrology; b) Gann's much-proclaimed regard
for the Bible as a sourcebook; and c) Gann's interest in the "lost word"
of freemasonry, treated in his own last book, "The Magic Word."
What struck me in particular while examining Anderson's work was the
attached illustration. Indeed, I sat transfixed for many minutes,
looking meditatively at this picture in the silence of the reading room.
I note that Anderson has written on the left-hand side, at the 270 degree
point, "Mystery of the Pyramid," and we know that Gann was much
taken by studies of the Great Pyramid of Giza. On the bottom or 0
degree point, Anderson has written, "Mystery of 5 Pointed Star," or the
pentagram, which is alluded to among other things the symbol of the
Lone Star State (p. 1 of "The Tunnel Thru the Air").
Some Gann Squares of Nine have concentric circles on them such as
Anderson has drawn on his own illustration. There are also squares and
triangles in Anderson's picture as well. These facts are particularly
interesting in light of comments by Daniel Ferrera concerning the
Square of Nine:
"In Ganns Master Course for Stocks he said 'Within the circle forms the
square, there is an inner circle and an inner square, as well as an outer
square and an outer circle which prove the Fourth Dimension in working
out price movements.' So far, we have covered the inner circle (The
Earths Orbit around the Sun) and the inner square (Historic high & low
coordinates on the square itself). The outer circle includes all of the
planets and is the Zodiac starting at the left side of the square also on
March 21st. Moving from this point clockwise in 30 degree sections of
the circle will place all 12 zodiac symbols around the wheel. This
completes the outer circle and allows the analyst to examine planetary
longitude relationships to price coordinates on the Square of 9, which is
now an outer square. In this way, we can convert planetary positions to
prices relating to degrees of a circle (Zodiac longitude) and also to
coordinates on the Square of 9. We can also examine hard aspects to
both zodiac longitude and Square of 9 coordinates."
http://www.sacredscience.com/ferrera/gannwheel.htm
It is to say the least a very interesting drawing. To see a description of
the Anderson book, and a few pages from it, including my attachment,
go to:
http://www.kessinger-publishing.com
and type in Anderson Karl in the search box.
Any observations are welcome.
Super Roman

Super,
You might do your self a big favor and get a copy of Robert Lawlor's Sacred
Geometry, Philosopy and Practice.
I think this might go a long way to clearing up some of the "Mystery"
I never took DF's course, but check out with a paper and compass and ruler.
concentric square's and circles.... that is where .707 or the sacred cut comes from.

Good Reading.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/messages/105

I don't use triangle numbers. As I tell people all the time, too many tools spoil the broth. I
only use the square of 9.

With this in mind I note that the GE low of 28.50 on September 21 occurred 0.10 x
17.795 squared dollars down from the 60.75 high on August 28,2000. Also note that
September 21 was 19.975 squared days from the high. So time and price were conjunct
on the 135 degree angle at the September 21 low. Hmmm....

Carl

In my last post I should have said that the 28.50 low in GE on September 21 was 17.958
squared x 0.10 dollars down from the 60.75
high (not 17.795 !)

Carl

Triangular numbers are literally triangles.

.
1

.
..
3
.
. .
. . .
6
.
. .
. . .
. . . .
10

Consider that the progression of lighting of the candles of a Menorah over time results in
the same figure as the image presented by a Christmas tree, and that both of these are the
essence of the Pythagorean Tetractys.

The genesis of the series in Pythagorean style is done by adding the numbers. 1 + 2 = 3. 3
+ 3 = 6. 6 + 4 = 10. 10 + 5 = 15, etc. One of the examples for which you asked for
explanation was:

561 is the triangle of 33

If you add 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. and keep a running total as explained above, when you reach
the 33rd iteration (and have just added 33) your total will be 561.

Find the triangle of 36 and compare to the weights of gold which came in to Solomon in
one year. 1 Kings 10:14
Knowing that 561 is the triangle of 33, we have a shortcut in that we only have 3 more
numbers to add.
Interestingly, just as when we divide a geometrical square with a diagonal we get two
triangles, when we add two triangular numbers we get a square. For example, 6 + 10 =
16, which is the square of 4.

10 is a demonstration of the extension of the One as we see that 1 + 3 + 6 = 10.

These two examples are most compelling as we see that by understanding this, the
squares so commonly focused on can be seen in a different light.

Gann supposedly went to Egypt to study Fibonnaci numbers at the foot of a pyramid with
a square base.

36 is one of the special cases, a number that is both triangular and square.
36 is the square of the Sun, obviously round, and to the Egyptians, a triangle at the same
time.

Let's examine the triangular numbers that lead up to 36.

1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36

And the squares

1 4 9 25 36

Only 15 and 21 add up to 36, triangles within the square.

There are those who dislike esotericism because they only see their belief about what it
is. For them, I offer a suggestion of a practical example.

Take a look at the attached chart of GE and the marked triangular numbers. Price as of
now 35.95.

Numbers aspect in the same way as do planets. How many planets? How many numbers?
It could be that a belief in a difference between numbers and astrology is but a veil
concealing a greater understanding.

That wch I have said of ye apocalypse of ye golden mean and ye one male and female
god is hereby accomplished and ended. : )

---------------------------------------------------------
Darrin

"561 is the triangle of 33"

561 is the SUMMATION of all numbers from 1 to 33. The formula is n/2 x (n+1)

n=33, so n/2 = 33/2 = 16.5

n+1 = 33+1 = 34
multiply these together 16.5 x 34 = 561.

This summation theory was "discovered" by a 5th grader!!!

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/119

General ways to use Square of Nine!

1. THIS IS THE BEST ONE I HAVE FOUND - TIME:

- Take Two Dates say the birth day of yours and your wife.
- Get the difference of dates. Look it up on the Square of Nine
- If you are compatible the dates should fall on either the Cardinal Cross
line (like mine and my wife's) or the Fixed Cross

- You apply the same principles to Trend Change Dates in the markets
both past and future.

2. PLANETS - THIS IS THE WORST ONE I HAVE FOUND

(by the way this was the most expensive thing I have paid for in Gann)
- Take the Geocentric location of the Planets
- Lay those positions down on the Square of Nine
- Use the Angles or Rays to determine market Price and Time resistance
- If you want to really make a mess of the page you can use the Mean of the 5 Visible
Planets positions. Or the 6 planets closest to the sun or the 8 planets etc.
- Waste of Time but you can charge heaps for it!

3. MOST OBVIOUS ONE

Use it for price and time moves relatively and see if Changes Occur on Angles of 180 90
270 etc 120 etc degrees from other Price and Time Trend Change Points.

Try using that for your trading and you will come up with lots of possibilities for
confusion!

Regards
David Hunt
www.adest.com.au
I don't know of anyone who agrees with me, but it is my eccentric opinion that the square
of 9 is the key to the markets.

What's wrong with the examples in Sq of 9 posts # 105 and 106 and in Gannsghost posts
# 7459, 7460 and 7462?

Carl

As a general principle If you start any date calcs using the natural year you start at 21
March Equinox (Ingress) for northern hemisphere 21 Sep Southern Hemisphere. You can
also use Solar Degrees in place of Calendar Days of course.

Regards
David Hunt

You are right. The Square of 9 is a square root calculator. It converts numbers to angles
in a way that is easy to do with a hand calculator (the method I use). See my post # 5463
on Gannsghost.

I don't know how people can get away selling the square of 9 for hundreds of dollars
except by taking advantage of other people's ignorance (mathematical and otherwise).

I do believe that the Square of 9 holds the key to the markets and can be used to trade
successfully all by itself. I have a friend who claims that the uncanny ability of the square
of 9 to identify trend changes is proof that the markets are manipulated. He thinks that a
financial conspiracy uses the square of 9 as a mathematical signalling tool to coordinate
the trades of its members. (I do not happen to share this belief.)

I have never seen anything in print (including Gann's commodity course and my own
booklets published 20 years ago, etc.) which explains the deeper significance of the
square of 9 and I doubt that I ever will.

Carl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/172

Gann once wrote that every high and low is mathematically related to previous highs and
lows. I believe that this is the case. However, there are many highs and lows to choose
from, to say nothing of the numerous possible mathematical relationships which might
exist among them.
When doing research along these lines I have found that the best guideline to follow is to
keep things as simple as possible. Someone once told me that if a market technique is to
work it must be simple, because the truth about the market is basically simple. Also, I
have found it useful to imagine that the market is manipulated via a mathematical
signalling tool which coordinates the trades of "those in the know". Any such
mathematical signalling has to be simple and based on obvious price/time points. For
example, the S&P projections I make now are based in part on the 9/21 low at 939.

As I have said many times on this list and on Gannsghost, I don't believe that pure time
counts starting from some extreme and projecting some future trend change date are of
much use. Almost all the techniques I described in the two booklets I wrote 20 years ago
were of this type, and I don't use any of these today. Instead I have found a way to square
price with time using the square of 9. This is the only tool you need to trade any market.

Carl

In my own work with the square of 9 I don't use any tables, wheels or charts which
purport to display the square of 9. In fact, the only reason I even use the term "the square
of 9" is to be able to communicate with other people by using terminology they
understand.

The only "square of 9" I use is my TI-30 hand calculator and especially its square and
square root functions.

I think the dates one finds displayed around the various "square of 9" wheels sold to the
public are interesting but irrelevant to calculating support and resistance.

As to which way the numbers spiral around the chart, I think that they should increase as
one moves from 0 to 45 to 90 degrees etc. because this is the way that corresponds to the
calculations of square roots.

The only examples I can offer are those which I have posted on Gannsghost and
Gannsquareofnine during the past three months.

Carl

thanks for these very interesting messages on gann's square of nine.

if you were to use the square of nine for the futures of the principal indices in the market
(the dow, the nasdaq, and the s&p 500) -- and i'm thinking of the e-minis here -- what
value would you use to start with in the square of nine? what would be the right
"increment" (i'm thinking here of gann's passion for 1x1 charts, where one unit of time =
one unit of price)?
best regards, romeman

I do not think that there is a single "correct" answer to the question of just what price
increment should correspond to one unit in the square of 9.

As a general rule I choose increments that are powers of 10 (e.g. .01. .10, 1.0, 10, or 100
cents, dollar, points or whatever the basic unit of quotation is).

The increment you choose will depend on two things. First, what is your trading time
frame? Smaller increments are useful for analysing smaller trends, bigger increments for
bigger trends. Second, how volatile is the market? I think that when the S&P's were
trading in the low hundreds you would want to use increments which were smaller than
the ones you use now when they are trading above 1000.

There is no magic, right answer to this question. It all depends on what you are trying to
accomplish. My own choice of increments is not something I care to discuss because I
don't wish to make it easy for others to duplicate my analysis.

Carl

Lee & Carl:

Lee, a sq9 is a set of numbers starting from one and spiralling out till infinity. A Gann
Wheel is the same set of numbers but with a circle of dates around the sq9. These dates
can be used to compare time on the GW with prices in the sq9.

There are many possibilities for Gann Wheels and sq9. First the numbers in a spiral can
progress in either a clockwise manner or counterclockwise from the center. Next the
dates around the GW can also go clockwise or counterclockwise but in addition the
starting points for the dates can start in various places. One starts from March 21,
another from Sep 21 and a third from June 7th.

Carl, you stated: "The only "square of 9" I use is my TI-30 hand calculator and
especially its square and square root functions." I also use this technique but there has
always been a problem. I cannot tell when time and price are squared because I never
know what number (factor) to use. I end up with a series of times and prices after the fact
and try to verify that the last high or low was a turning point by comparing different
times with the prices.

If I use factors that are too small, I can verify any price with any time. If the factors are
too large, nothing can be verified. There is no way to know exactly what factor to use in
advance. This has always been an insurmountable problem which is why I turned to a
GW to hopefully determine another way to identify time or price. At this point I do not
see any way out of this dilemma.
Lynn

The basic principle underlying market movements is that they tend to occur in muliples
of 90 degrees. In the square of 9 this translates into adding or subtracting multiples of 0.5
to or from the square root of the starting point price.

Of course there are many multiples of .5 to choose from (to say nothing of many possible
starting points). This is why it is necessary to consider the time element by squaring price
with time.

I believe that it is possible to develop a profitable trading method using only price and the
square of 9. This is the route I took to "enlightenment". But to completely understand the
market and to be able to distinguish temporary halts from the end of the trend itself one
must learn to incorporate the time element as well.

Carl

In every Gann wheel I have ever seen the dates displayed around the circumference of the
wheel are of no real use in calculating support and resistance.

I just don't see how anyone can get away with selling such a thing for more than the cost
of materials.

I think it is very important to keep in mind the following basic fact.

The people who sell courses and books on Gann techniques most certainly do not know
the "secret of the market" (if there is such a thing- I for one do think there is). If they did
know of such a secret they certainly wouldn't reveal it to the public for a few hundred or
for a few thousand dollars!

Instead the seminar givers and course sellers know some things that work some of the
time, but when it comes to applying them to real time trading they always need to use
some form of standard technical analysis to assist the Gann techniques they know.

I think you have to approach this whole subject with that in mind. The materials, books,
seminars are just a starting point (a good one) for your search for the truth. By its very
nature the truth about how the markets work can never be given to you. You must
discover on your own if you find it at all. If you discover it the truth will remain safe with
you because you will have no reason to sell it to anybody. You will have worked too hard
for too many years to sell it for a few hundred or a few thousand dollars in a seminar or a
book or course. You will instead use what you have learned to make your living from
trading the markets.

Indeed, to sell what you know to somebody would run the real risk of destroying its
value, for markets can only accommodate a small minority of successful traders.

I might add parenthetically that I don't believe that Gann himself knew the truth about
how markets work. He knew only a small part of the whole story, and that part worked
for him only some of the time (for example, in 1909).Therefore you won't learn what you
really need to know from Gann's courses, books or those written by people who are trying
to capitalise on Gann's legacy.

Carl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/185

topos8

I measure time using the calendar time which elapses between two dates. As I have often
said on this list, I don't think planetary movements are of much use for calculating
support and resistance and especially not in conjunction with the square of 9.

Time is in some sense "coarser" than price. For example, I have never had any success
measuring time in minutes or hours as one might be tempted to do for day trading
purposes. This is consonant with my basic model of the market which is that it behaves as
if it were manipulated by people who share a similar mathematical approach to markets
and thereby coordinate their trades. This would be too hard to do if time had to be
measured in minutes or hours.

Intraday movements certainly are controlled by price-square-time calculations. However,

in my own work I also use pure price calculations to identify intraday turning points (for
the purpose of fading reactions against the bigger trend). So I guess I am saying that for
day-trading purposes you probably can rely only on price calculations using the square of
9, but to determine the direction of the bigger trend time must be incorporated into the
analysis.

Carl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/topics/188

Hello Carl,
First of all I want to thank you for sharing your vast experience and knowledge of this
enneagram thing. I have been studying your posts and have had some success
understanding them. May I ask how you calculate time degrees? Do I use the eqn. you
provided in GG 5462:

time deg = mod 360 ( 180 * (cd)^.5 -225 )

or do I use something along the lines of what Brian Skelenka showed us?

time deg = 180 * cd

where cd = calendar days. For example in your GE example:

H = 60.75 (on 7/28/2000)

L = 28.5 (9/21/2001)

where I get:
Trading Days: 289 = 315 deg or 52.02 deg using BJS method
Calendar Days: 420 = 224 deg or 75.6 " " " "
Price Range: 31.20 = 60 deg
High: 60.00 = 89 deg
Low: 28.80 = 21 deg

you said at the low time and price were conjunct at 135 deg. For the life of me I cannot
find that 135 degrees. Help! Also in your opinion, does it matter whether or not we start
the square with a one or a zero in the centre? For that matter, when/why would anyone
put a number other than 1 or zero in the centre of the sq of 9? I noticed your equation
uses zero.

Thanks
-Rick

Your first equation (copied just below) is the correct one.

> time deg = mod 360 ( 180 * (cd)^.5 -225 )

> where cd = calendar days.

The reason you cannot find 135 degrees is more complicated.

The main explanation is that I made a key punch error when I did the calculation (a
hazard of back-of -the- envelope calculation). In fact the day of the low is 389 (not 399 as
I had punched into my calculator) days from the GE high on August 28, 2000 (not July
28, 2000 as you wrote below!). The square root of 388 is 19.723 which is on the 90
degree angle, not the 135 degree angle.

The price difference 60.75 high to 28.50 low is 32.25. Multiply this by 10 and you get
322.5. Square root of this is 17.958 which is on the 135 degree angle as I said in the
original post.

SO, the bottom line is that I SCREWED UP and the GE low did NOT square time in the
manner which I originally claimed. Time was on the 90 degree angle while price was on
the 135 degree angle.

"Sin in haste; repent at leisure."

My sincere apology to all who were confused by my error.

Carl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsquareofnine/conversations/messages/198

I think the point I was trying to make in the paragraphs which preceded the one you
quoted below in my post was this. The "secret", if it exists, couldn't possibly be found in
print. No one who knew such a secret would have any possible reason to write about it or
to explain it to anyone else for the reasons I cited.

I first saw a copy of the square of 9 in 1979. Billy Jones sent one to me in response to an
inquiry of mine about Gann.

It took me many years to learn how to use this tool. The booklets I wrote about the square
of 9 in 1981-1982 had some interesting ideas but, like all things in print on the subject,
they don't contain the key technique because I didn't know it then. If I had known it I
wouldn't have written any booklets about it.

I make my assertions about what Gann knew for two reasons. First I can compare what I
know to what Gann wrote about in his courses and books. Secondly, I observe that Gann
was basically an astrologer and played the markets for himself using astrology as his
basic tool. I can assure you that if he really knew how to apply the square of 9 he would
never have needed to use financial astrology in the first place.

Moreover, I personally don't believe that a man who knew the secret to the markets
would, even in his late 60's and 70's, continue to sell courses and books to the public. I
think he did this because it was easier for him to make money this way than to take it
from the market.
Carl
--- In gannsghost@y..., "leonoliver" <leonoliver@y...> wrote:
> "I might add parenthetically that I don't believe that Gann himself
> knew the truth about how markets work. He knew only a small part of
> the whole story, and that part worked for him only some of the time
> (for expample, in 1909).Therefore you won't learn what you really
> need to know from Gann's courses, books or those written by people
> who are trying to capitalize on Gann's legacy."
>
> Carl,

[email protected]

Haytham

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/messages/5463

I've noticed a lot of discussion on Gann's square of 9 so I thought that the group might
enjoy learning a bit more about this chart.

The square of 9 is known in occult circles as the enneagram (from the Greek "enneas"
meaning "nine"). I understand (second hand) that a certain Hindu guru (since deceased)
asserted that whoever unravels the secrets of the enneagram " will enjoy riches and
wealth and be sexually fertile".

From a mathematical point of view the square of 9 is just an ancient graphical method for
calculating square roots of numbers. As such it goes back thousands of years before
Gann.

It is easy to write down an exact formula for the numbers in the enneagram which
correspond to any given degree in the cycle of 360 degrees.

Suppose you want to figure out which numbers in the square of nine (the enne- agram) lie
on the angle of X degrees where X is any number between 0 and 360.

The answer is (2n + 5/4 + 2X/360 )squared. Here n is any whole number (e.g.
0,1,2,3,4,...).

This formula gives the cardinal and fixed points on the square of 9 as follows:

0 degrees: (2n + 5/4)squared

45 degrees: (2n + 6/4)squared
90 degrees: (2n + 7/4)squared
135 degrees: (2n) squared
180 degrees: (2n + 1/4)squared
225 degrees: (2n + 2/4)squared
270 degrees: (2n + 3/4)squared
315 degrees: (2n + 1)squared.

EXAMPLE 1: Suppose we want to calculate the numbers on the 225 degree angle. Using
the formula above for n=1 we get (2x1 + 2/4)squared = 6.25. For n=2 we get (2x2
+2/4)squared = 20.25. For n=3...etc.

EXAMPLE 2: Suppose we want to calculate the numbers that correspond to 108 degrees.
Substitute X = 108 in the first formula in this post. Then for n=1 we calculate (2x1 + 5/4
+ 216/360)squared = (2 + 5/4 + 6/10)squared = 14.82. For n=2 we calculate (2x2 + 5/4 +
216/360) squared = (4 + 5/4 + 6/10)squared = 34.22.

Those of you who have a paper copy of the square of 9 will notice that the calculations
above correspond to the numbers on the square of 9 chart if one places the number 0 in
the central square and spirals out from there.

In my opinion this is the most useful way to convert angles to numbers using the square
of 9. It requires only a hand calculator with a square root and a square function.

It is silly to spend $$$ to purchase software or copies of the square of 9 when these
calculations can be done so simply.

Hope this helps.

Carl Futia

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/5483

Hello Carl,

Thank you for accepting to answer some questions regarding your work publicly. I
have 4 questions:

1. Do you have other work beside "The Principle of Squares"and " Predicting Market
Trends With Periodic Number Cycles"

2. In the Principle of Squares, you have presented the method by squaring the "natural
numbers", what about ratios such as 0.382, 0.618, 1.618,...? I found them also to be
significant for time and price cycles.
3. You have used different formula for time than the price formula, I use the same
formula for price also for time by adding the natural numbers(or fib ratio) to the time then
resquare, this was able to predict Nasdaq bottom on 4/4/2001, My question: is there a
reason for using different formula for price?

4. In "Predicting Market Trends With Periodic Number Cycles" you have presented
several other methods, my question: how and when do you use these other methods you
have mentioned, the point I am trying to reach: it is difficult to use all the methods you
have mentioned because trader may have different projected days by using them all.
Personally I use the price method you mentioned for both time and price as a part of the
important things I always look at in making my decisions.

Regards,

Haytham

The answer to your first question is easy: the two booklets you mentioned are the only
ones currently in print.

I'll answer the last three questions in this way.

When I wrote the "Principle of Squares" and "Predicting Market Trends..." twenty years
ago I was convinced that predicting the timing of future highs and lows was the key to
success in speculation.

About 70% of what I wrote in those two booklets concerns such "timing" methods.

But I eventually concluded that, at least for my own purposes, timing methods were too
unreliable. I was interested in making trades at prices as close to the actual highs and
lows as possible. Even a day's error in an S&P timing prediction would preclude making
such an exact entry or exit.

So I began to focus solely on understanding support and resistance in price. I eventually

concluded that the highs and lows of market swings do not occur at random prices but
instead can be anticipated using, for example, the square of 9. Nowadays time
calculations play no role in my market approach.

I might add that studying Gann put me on the path to understanding how the market
really works. But I spent many years being confused by all the innumerable techniques
one could use. This hindered my progress a great deal. The truth about markets only
started to emerge from the mist after I abandoned all efforts to forecast the dates of future
highs and lows and instead focused on understanding why price swings stopped at the
levels they did.
So my advice is simple: study support and resistance and forget timing forecasts. I know
that most Gann aficionados will disagree with me, but then I never had much success
doing things the way others thought they should be done.

Hope this helps.

Carl

Hello Carl,

Thank you for your reply, do you think that "understanding why price swings stopped at
the levels they did." related to because "price" at certain levels has a relation to "time",
for example, measured moves, balancing time and price, square of 9 when converting
price and time to degrees..

Regards,

Haytham

No I don't.

There are many interesting coincidences where price extremes appear to be controlled by
some sort of time count (as for example in some sort of squaring of price with time). But
I myself have never found a method incorporating time counts that CONSISTENTLY
detects such tops and bottoms.

In my opinion a useful trading method must be consistently accurate and simple to use.
Otherwise a normal person won't be able to apply it successfully.

I believe the truth about market is to be found in simple calculations. If you are doing
something complicated, it probably won't work with enough consistency to enable you to
follow it mechanically.

Carl

Hello Carl,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. To my knowledge there is no simple method which
can be consistently accurate and simple to use, do you have such method you are willing
to share.
I have studied and traded all the technical analysis methods from stochastic to RSI to
Candlestick to everything out there, all works to a certain degree but not consistently,
when I start studying "time" my performance improved significantly.

I believe mass psychology reactions and counter reactions are repetitive(cyclical in

nature)and if we know the vibration rate of specific market it will be easier to evaluate
the importance of price level, vibration rate has a relation to time, even square of nine
angles has a relation to time.

Regards,

Haytham

Haytham;

If your methods work for you why bother trying to improve them or find better ones?
After all, the name of this game is to make money from the market, not to show the world
how smart we are.

I think a good trader is like a good athlete or a good gambler.

Barry Bonds can't tell you which pitches he will hit out of the park before the game starts.
He isn't interested in prediction. He is a great player because he REACTS
APPROPRIATELY to the CURRENT SITUATION, not because he can forecast the
sequence of pitches he will see or their location in the strike zone.

A good blackjack player can't tell you before he sits down at the table just which hands
he will be dealt or whether he will win or loose that day. But he succeeds because he
REACTS APPROPRIATELY to the hand he holds.

So it is with trading. I calculate support and resistance by measuring from historical highs
and lows and using the square of 9 to covert prices into degrees. When the market
reaches forecast support or resistance I will fade it if the main trend is in the opposite
direction. Otherwise I will look for some indication on my hourly charts that support or
resistance is actually working. That's all there is to it.

I should say that when I first learned about Gann 20 years ago I tried something similar
but couldn't make it work for me. Part of the reason was that I didn't understand the
significance of the various angles and consequently didn't calculate correctly. But the
other reason was that I was so enamoured with the idea of predicting the times when
trend changes were due that I overlooked phenomena which were in fact staring me in the
face. So many wasted years!
Carl

Haytham:

This is a postscript to my last response to your response to....

My own trading education followed a course similar to the one you described.

First I learned all the techniques of standard technical analysis.

Then I learned astrology and Gann. I found that incorporating the time element did
indeed improve the performance of the standard technical methods.

But I found that my performance was not consistent. I would go through winning streaks,
and then loosing streaks of small losses but many of them. Even more aggravating was
the problem of missing big swings that my timing methods just didn't see. So finally I
resolved to apply the "180 degree" principle and do the opposite of what I had been
doing. So I abandoned standard technical methods, cycles, and 99% of the stuff I learned
from studying Gann. Instead I focused only on price support and resistance.

I remember some correspondence I had back then with a professional trader who had
been a member of the CBOT and many other exchanges. I explained some of my timing
methods and as an aside mentioned that I did a little work with support and resistance
levels. He responded by saying "If you understand how to calculate support and
resistance correctly what more do you need?" He was right. I only wish I had paid more
attention at the time!

Carl

[email protected]

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/1052

Brian-

In your instructions for converting price to degrees, we students are instructed to divide
the price by 0.0055555....

Rather than going through this exercise in division, I find it much easier to just
multiply the price by 180º. This I can do in my head, whereas I don't have enough of the
'little gray cells' to do the division in my head. What do you think?

I know you are getting a lot of praise for your generous sharing of your knowledge of
Gann and astro, but, hey, you deserve it! Thanks again!
Paul

Brian-

When you first started posting here, someone asked you where the 0.0055555
you were using came from. Another answered that it was the reciprocal of 180º.
You agreed that was true.

Therefore:

Price / 0.0055555 is mathematically the same as

Price / (1/180º) =

Price x 180º

I just noticed that by multiplying by 180º not only was easier for me, but that this also
eliminated the rounding error; i.e., 180º is exact!

Now if I could only remember those twelve funny looking symbols...

Paul Stein

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/1052

Means you make the program calculate time between last reversal and coming, convert it
to degree and calculate price on sq9. So you don't have to do it by hand old fashioned
way or even think about it, it just pops on the screen next to time reversal indicator as a
line.
No Gann labels, no bs.
Gann didn't invent it anyway, he couldn't even fully explain it, why bother..

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/7449

DJIA 11750 high - 8062 low = 3688 points. It's not a cardinal, corner or natural square.
But divide 3688 by 11750. It comes out to .3138 or .0001 from a corner
number on the Sq. of 9.

Further, 1/14/00 high to 3/22/01 low (9106) is 434 days and 2644 points. Divide the
smaller number by the greater: .1641 or a Sq. of 9 corner number.
495 days separates the high from the 5/22/01 price of 11350, another high. The
difference, obviously, is 400 points, a natural square. 495 is one point away from a
180 degree cardinal number of 496. Meanwhile, 400 is one degree from the
sesquiquadrate angle on the Sq. of 9, meaning time and price move were a semisquare
apart.

From the 3/22 low to the 5/22 high is 62 days. From the 5/22 high to 9/21 low, 123 days;
time doubled.

Wayne

Wayne:

According to my calculator, 60.75 squared =3690.56. Doesn't this mean that 3688 is on
the cardinal angle of 270 degrees in the square of 9? I might also point out that
September 18 (3 days prior to the low) was 24.75 squared days from the Dow high at
11750 on January 14, 2000. Thus time and price were conjunct on the 270 degree angle at
the Dow low.

Unhappy experience has taught me to keep calculations as simple as possible. A toolkit

with too many tools is useless for trading purposes.

Carl

Wayne:

In the reply I posted below I forgot to mention that the price of 8055 is 89.75 squared.
Thus The dow low of 8062 was very nearly on the 270 degree angle from zero too.
Amazing coincidences!

Carl

Wayne;
Sorry, I made a small error.
The price of 8055 is 89.75 squared which is on the 90 degree angle from 0 (not the 270
angle) and is thus opposition to the configuration arising from measurement from the
11750 top.

Carl

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/7508
In June 2002 Eurodollar, there is a mathematical relationship based on time and price
between the contract low and the high posted today.

Time : 29 rounds of helio Mercury.

Price: 7.5 cycle from 90.930 low to today's 97.720 high converting price to rate then
using square of 9.

Fundamentally speaking, most of the economic numbers this month have been very weak
reflecting the Sept. 11th incident. Although, the economy has shown no sign of recovery
any time soon, the economic weakness of this magnitude is a bit over done. As a result,
short end is vulnerable to any economic number that shows unusual weakness in
expectation that the number will come back to more modest decline after the incident.

Still, the overall position of long the short end and short the long end to take advantage of
the yield curve steepening from FED easing has been the major play up to now. Once, the
sign of further weakness in the short end is confirmed, in tandem, expect buy back of
short position in the long end. This should keep the long end to retain value despite the
weakness in the short end which means
the yield curve should flatten for the time being.

Just my observation and not an investment advise of any kind.

Utaro

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/messages/8044

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One of the main reasons I joined this list was to help people avoid the many wrong turns I
made in my life-long quest to understand how markets really work.

With this in mind I thought there might be some interest in a brief history of my efforts to
come to terms with Gann and his legacy.

My first encounter with W.D. Gann occurred in 1966 in the stacks of a university library.
There I found bound volumes of the Ticker Magazine (later renamed the Magazine of
Wall Street). Paging through the 1909 volume I found the now famous article on W. D.
Gann which recounted his trading successes of that year.

My reaction was the same as yours: initial amazement followed by a determination to

figure out just how Gann did it.
I had no success until 1977 when I saw an ad for an annual stock market forecast put out
by Lambert-Gann Publishing. At the same time I had read a book by R.E. McMaster
entitled "Cycles of War".

In one chapter of his book McMaster recounted Gann's story (and started the myth that
Gann made $50 million). I wrote to McMaster about Gann. He wrote back saying that he
had studied Gann’s commodity course but didn't understand much of it. He added that
much of Gann's work was based on astrology.

I then decided to study astrology which I did extensively for 8 years. I first met Norman
Winski in 1980 in New Orleans and he was very helpful to me in many ways. Never one
to leave a stone unturned, I also obtained photocopies of many manuscripts published in
Latin by European and Arabic astrologers (Bonatus, Morinus, Abu Mashar, Placidus,
Masha Aallah to name a few- my 4 years of high school Latin came in handy here).

At the time I was publishing a stock and commodity forecasting letter, The Cyclic
Forecast. My principal technique for long range forecasting was astrology (although I
didn't tell my readers this), but shorter range forecasts were based on other Gann
techniques (more on this later).

After eight years of extensive experience with astrological forecasting I reached some
conclusions.

First, astrology has value- it is not a hoax as some would have it.
But my interest was not in assessing the scientific merits of astrology; it was in
forecasting and trading markets.

A realistic evaluation of my own experience in astrological market forecasting led me to

my second conclusion. Astrological forecasting was not consistently accurate enough for
my purposes. Remember, I spent 8 long years of extensive study and practice in real
markets before I reached this conclusion. To make astrology a useful tool in markets you
have to combine it with other things, usually some form of technical analysis. Once you
start doing this it is hard to see just what added value the astrological forecast gives you.

One can argue of course that I just didn't do astrology right.

Certainly this is a possibility. But one should consider also the experiences of the many
brilliant men and women who have studied and practiced astrology through the ages and
in modern times. If astrology were the key to the markets one would think that at least of
few would have become market legends. But, as far as I can determine, no astrologer has
become famous for his or her trading or investing prowess. The single exception to this
rule is W. D. Gann and, as member of this list know, I have serious doubts about him too.
So if astrology wasn't the answer what was? Back in New Orleans in 1980 where I met
Norman Winski I also met Phyllis Kahn, a charming and very smart lady who has written
many articles on Gann, has much practical experience applying Gann to markets, and still
puts out a newsletter, Gann Angles.

I asked Phyllis if it was worthwhile purchasing Gann's commodity course then published
by Lambert-Gann. She responded with an emphatic yes. This was the turning point in my
market career.

I studied the commodity course and came away with three main ideas.
First was the basic idea that trend changes occurred when price squared time (whatever
this meant!). Second was the technique of geometric angles, especially the 1x1 angle and
especially the angles from the price of 0 which start at the time of a major high or low.
Finally, and most important, was the square of 9 (or the octagon chart as I liked to call it
at the time).

In my market letter I used all of these ideas ( plus my astrological forecasts) to predict
highs and lows in stocks and commodities and to identify the direction of the main trend.
I had many successes and my share of failures too.

I shut down the letter in 1983 and went off on my own to trade and manage money. Here
too I had some successes and some failures.

For a time I even abandoned Gann ideas in my market work completely. But one very
peculiar and fortunate event had occurred in 1981 and it kept me returning to my old
Gann work periodically, wondering whether I had missed something.

While still publishing the Cyclic Forecast I wrote my two booklets, "The Principle of
Squares" and “Predicting Market Trends with Periodic Number Cycles". One of my
subscribers wrote to me after reading "The Principle of Squares" and asserted that the
market was an exact mathematical science. He said that Gann knew only one true thing
and hinted that it was related to the Square of 9 (I didn't catch this hint until a number of
years later). He asserted that all other Gann techniques worked only some of the time and
were not effective enough to rely upon in trading.
Since this man had been a member of the Board of Trade as well as a number of foreign
exchanges he had some credibility with me. It took me many years before I understood
what he had only hinted at.

Meantime I had been experimenting again with techniques for squaring price with time. I
was measuring price using the harmonics of 360 ( Gann students call this the square of
90). I was close to what I now understand to be the key to the markets but was using the
wrong tool.
Then I again got sidetracked and started to study planetary support and resistance. This I
did for several years. I concluded that this method has value, but it doesn't tell you what
you really need to know: just how big a reversal should one expect once a support or
resistance level is hit.

Finally, after these many detours I returned to my first love, the Square of 9. One day I
was sitting at my desk mulling over my history of working with Gann ideas. A flash of
inspiration led me to look at a recent market extreme to see whether it showed a squaring
of price with time using the square of 9. It did and that started
me on the road to developing the method I use today.

The problem with Gann is that there are many "doors" to choose from. Each one opens
onto a path of study which can take many years. Yet I think that only one door leads to
the truth about market. All the others lead to techniques which work only some of the
time and are not reliable enough to trade with.

I know most people on this list have commitments to this or that Gann technique. But if
you choose badly you will search many years and never get where you want to go.

I hope my own story will serve as a warning and as a cautionary tale.

Carl

alblak1940 (Allan Blakstad?)

HI CARL

I have read ur story with great interest.

For some reasons I cud not respond to it b4 now.

U made following statement :

>>>>Astrological forecasting was not consistently accurate enough for my purposes....To
make astrology a useful tool in markets you have to combine it with other things, usually
some form of technical analysis.
>>>

I think that goes for Mr Gann too.

In his yearly forecasts he had a tendency to expect turns within a short time-frame of
some 2-3 days. If u check some of them u will find that sometimes his time-frame was set
even wider. The reason for this is that the forecasting method which I believe Gann used
was not at all accurate all the time despite the fact that he also averaged the cycle turns to
get what he called a vibration point.
These vibration points he used as guideline for his yearly forecasts. He then zoomed it in
later when using his key cycle for shorter term action as described in one of his books
(TTTA) Even the short term cycle sometimes gives u a headache when deciding what the
key vibration point shud be.

One good example is the current action in may wheat/2002 contract.

If the market hasn't made an inversion (which occur from time to time) since dec 13/2001
low we have likely seen a dec 28 top. The problem is that the vibration top dec 28 was
very early. Best wud have been a dec 31st high.
Now we are already talking jan 2nd and if the cycle is overdue we have a possibility to
endure the cycle top until 2morrow.
As u can see that is a very wide range tho it is not at all uncommon that the vibration
point comes in at a slightly lower top (or higher low).
So I agree with u that following strictly astrological timing must be used with utmost care
to which u may add tech. analysis.
In fact Gann himself in his 1921 book "Truth of the Stock tape" wrote
: " I am considered an expert tape reader"...Yes, one statement went even further using
the expression "intuitive tape reading “
I believe he knew what he was talking about as he knew that his astrological method
sometimes cud be slightly off. Of course that is why he also put so much emphasis on
stop losses in his writing.

For those who may have an interest in May wheat it shud follow the downside when the
last minor swing low has been broken or even today's low. Assuming that we have not
made an inversion I believe that is the next direction of wheat.
The next cycle low shud come in around jan 16.
From there it shud go up until jan 28 before a reaction shud take us well into feb or the
11. The next top after this shud be around feb 18/2002.
These dates serve as guideline in the forecast just the way I believe they did for mr.
Gann.( I have not worked out the exact short term action points for confirmation)
Funny enough many of the dates mentioned coincide well with new and full moon dates.
This is not always the case but when they do it may add further confidence to a forecast.
Some readers may see that the moon set up in this case may be opposite of what
suggested by Burton Pugh.

Finally Carl: Im not so sure that only one door leads to the truth about markets.
However ...if that door is cyclic repetition I do agree but remember that he also advised
us to follow "all" of his rules "all" the time.
I don't think he meant "all" tho !
I prefer to use some of the key cycles as he mentioned specifically in Tunnel for
confirmation.

Tks for writing.

Kindest regards
Allan

Yes u are rite.

In fact May wheat did make an inversion late dec.01
The base wud therefore be that dec 31st actually was the turn date for the low despite a
slightly higher one. It was a difficult set up I admit as described in my earlier mail. The
forecast called for the next turn to be around jan16. An average of previous med-term
cycles I have tested in fact prefer jan 17 as best for a top.
Jan 28 shud then turn out to be a low while the feb 11 shud be a high.
In fact rechecking this last one...a feb 14 maybe 15th wud be a better turn date for this
particular high.
Feb 19/20 shud be very important for May wheat.
In fact the whole period feb 14 - feb 21 is very important.
The forecast calls for an important move of considerable time and possible also in price
to follow when this period has passed.
Speaking of prices I am only able to give u a few points that I have worked out so far. U
may take it for what it is as the working out of percentages is something I still need to do
more work on.
Well here goes.
The current move shud end ideally at 311...hope to see that completed 2morrow or the
day after. U may have noticed that we saw 309 1/2 on the 14th.
A low on jan 28 has a price target of 291 1/2 in may wheat while the feb 14 high
indicates 323.
I hope this helps tho I warn u that futures trading is a risky business.

Have a great day.

Allan

Yes, I believe May wheat is running out of time to the downside. After the top in mid jan
the forecast was down to jan 28 for a low of 291 1/2. We saw 288 1/2 today and I take
that on account of lost motion.
The cycle is now 2 days overdue according to what I believe was the yearly forecast
cycle Gann used in his days.. As I have pointed out b4 it can vary slightly from its
vibrational mean despite methods available that may zoom it in.
I believe a move of some 30 cents is waiting for us on the upside in may wheat as the
next vibration mean is feb 14 or 15 for a price of 320 1/4 which is a few points below my
original forecast of 323.
U have asked me how I use percentages.
Unfortunately I can only give u one clue which is much importance tho.
On page 32 in "Profits in Commodities " Gann wrote : " You must apply time cycles and
time rules in connection with figuring percentages on the bottom"...and I will add also to
tops as just above this passage he wrote : "each top or bottom…. comes out in accordance
with an exact mathematical proportion to some other top or bottom"
As u may be aware of most people use percentages from any top or bottom that may add
up to something. In this case Gann tells us to use specific tops and bottoms according to
the time cycle....That is a great difference.
When that is done, and only then u may add up percentages from other tops and bottoms
of importance. I guess it shud not be hard tho to find many confirmations in doing so.
In addition to this I use the sq9 and the "master 360 price and time chart" to find
confirming angles to my forecasted price.
I believe it wud also be helpful to look at planetary lines tho Im very careful not to rely
too much upon them.
I still work hard to improve the percentages work Im doing in order to make them better
and better. The set up can sometimes be disturbing on account of lost motion. Best in
those cases is to get confirmation from other contracts like wheat december which I use a
lot.
I will update again in mid feb as I know u pay attention.

Kindest regards
Allan

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Thanks Carl. I've been tinkering around with calculations, but wasn't hitting the numbers
you posted, so I wondered whether it was a contract difference, e.g front month high was
112-19, while USH2 high was 111-17. I keep front month charts for weekly and
monthly, but , like you, dial down to the current contract month for daily swings.
Unfortunately, this means that its my methodology, not contract choice, that's creating the
difference!

FWIW - using 4 ticks/day as a measurement, the 50% level on the square of 144 price-
wise is also 98. The top of 144 is 107 which was significant resistance in Jan. and March
of this year, and 111 1/2 was 1.25 X 144 (missed the high price, but high close on USZ
was 111 1/2), so it has been worthwhile to follow.

Thanks for your posts.

Greg

Carl
Your levels seem to be holding for now. I am curious - are your calculations based on
the March contracts or continuous front month contracts? Or doesn't it matter because
you're working on ticks travelled rather than absolute prices?

Greg

Greg:

The answer to your question is a bit complicated. I could't give you a complete answer
without explaining details of my calculations which I prefer to keep to myself.

However, I will explain the general guidelines I use. For longer term work (intermediate
term trends and major trends) I usually use continuation contract numbers while for
shorter term work the current contract extremes.

If by continuous contracts you mean those which are weighted averages of two or more
nearby contracts, just let me say that I have never found these useful for my calculations.

Carl

Vedic sources:
Sidereal Astrology(make sure you get Parasara Hora Sastra- bible of Vedic Astrology):
http://www.jdrventures.com/

Gregory

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Being British my knowledge of American history is sketchy to say the least but as I
understand it the war of independence started because of the taxes imposed by king
George to pay for the war against the French.
This is a naive piece of propaganda imo and the continuance of slavery was closer to the
hearts of Benjamin Franklin and others who were wary of British politicians who wished
to dispense with it.
To illustrate the conspiracy it is interesting to note that the war against France was
actually triggered by the shooting of French civilian prisoners by British troops. However
the officer who ordered the shooting, and I have no doubt he knew what would become
of it, was none other than George Washington himself who was a serving officer in the
British Army at the time.
George Washington was a freemason, so was Benjamin Franklin but their connections
run deeper than just simple freemasonry. Franklin was a member of the hellfire club with
links through its founder to esoteric societies, the Templars and the Illuminati. The
illuminati funded Rosicrucian and Freemason lodges in Germany and elsewhere.
The 'poor' knights Templar saved Scotland from defeat by England when a troop of their
knights arrived on the battle field at Bannockburn at just the right moment to save the
Scots who were being hard pressed. This troop of knights appears to have 2 years
previously fled papal persecution in the Languedoc region of France in the Templars own
private navy to Scotland, which was not under papal domination at the time. Eventually
their stay was an embarrassment to the Scots and they faded out of sight thereafter. Its
possible the Templar's navy went to America in the 1300s and took many of the knights
with them. It is rumoured that one St Clair family member went to America about that
time. The St Clairs (Sinclairs) were/are heavily involved in these mysteries all the way
back to the excavations of Solomons temple after the first crusade.
The Templars were far from poor. They effectively created an international banking
system and accumulated absolutely vast wealth. It was this wealth that made the French
king seek papal authority to persecute the Templars. The excuse was the gnostic heresy.
Unfortunately for him all the treasure disappeared before he could get his greedy fingers
on it. The Templars had paid spies and sympathisers everywhere including inside the
Vatican and were tipped off about Simon de Montford's plans.
The game that is being played is a very long one indeed, so long it stretches into the pre
christian era, even before the time of Osiris.
Astrologers have always wielded great power and influence. One example of this was the
astrologer to the King Raja Raja who persuaded him to build thousands of temples in
southern India. This particular astrologer may have been one of the seven sages as it
appears he was instrumental in ordering an expedition to build the temple of Angor Wat
in Cambodia. This temple is connected with the pyramid at Giseh and others including
one now subterranean just off the shores of Easter island which all lie on particular
longitudes around the world.
I believe this society of sages with its power and influence over the millennia has
spawned a myriad of other organisations, including the Royal Society? the Bildeburg
group? which themselves have no idea of the true end game. These astrologers with a
vast knowledge gleaned from 40,000 years of stargazing, observing and manipulating
human events have accumulated vast wealth and are well placed to take advantage of
todays electronic systems to control and manipulate the worlds markets.
They also spread disinformation and are always represented on both sides in any conflict
so that no matter who loses they are always on the winning side. For example, Mao Tse
Tung was a master freemason so were Santa Anna and Huston.
There is a long game imo and we are all potential victims of it.
(btw nothing I say should be taken too seriously)

Andrew

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/2374
Hello everyone,

I don't regularly do the ellipse analysis (I'm lazy) but when you do it I think it quite often
reveals the underlying cycles visually. I find it to be very useful when you are in doubt or
unsure of any cycle (astro or geometry) change that is about to take place. If you look at
the chart, I think you can see that the ellipse can work together with many other tools. I
used Excel 2000's built in auto shape function. I used to use Adobe Illustrator and it can
do a lot of 2 dimensional ratio analysis and overlay all kinds of shapes to a chart but it
wasn't user friendly (after all it is an illustration software!). Unfortunately, the Excel 97
doesn't have this function of ellipse that let you tilt the axis, only Excel 2000 does, so be
careful. I think when you are at a critical stage of making trading decision based on
cycles, this analysis might help to fine tune your trading strategy. The basic concept came
from Brad Cowan and George Bayer's ellipse analysis but this one has been drawn totally
by my eyes and feel. No math. In my opinion eyeball and feel works just as good as
anything. This is an ongoing development of just another type of market analysis and I
am in no way an expert. So please tell me if there are any improvements that can be
made to the technique or any opinion is welcomed.

Best regards, Utaro Hayashi

Utaro,

Thank you for sharing this with us, I find your post very interesting because you are able
to "rotate" the ellipse to fit chart, I know ellipse method is "very" important, in fact
George Bayer described it as "the most important method shown in this book".

What has prevented me from doing further research on ellipse using Bayer work is the
"scale" problem, George used chart paper made by Keuffel & Esser of New York, this is
not exist anymore(I think) and he did not talk about the scale when he describe the
dimension of the ellipse.

I would highly appreciate if you share with us how did you use excel 2000 to generate
ellipse and what software did you use to draw this picture and ellipses.

Regards,

Haytham

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/2088

As some on this list know I trade Nasdaq daily swings(rarely intraday), I do not post
much anymore because I am busy trading, I am revealing for the first time some of my
proprietary methods based on astro analysis. The vertical line represent days projected
into the future for potential turning point.

My method is simple: I watch the days of these vertical lines and mid point between 2
vertical lines for reversal using 60 min bars, MACD, RSI, volume and candlesticks, I
increase my accuracy by using bar count, measured move, square of nine and other
squares, Gann angles,...

The gif pictures is what I saw yesterday.

Regards,

Haytham

As you all know squares of natural numbers(1,2,3,..) represent important "time"

resistance levels need to be watched.

Some other evidence of 6/29/2001 turning point:

5/24/2000 L to 9/1/2000 H is 70 trading days X 4(natural square of 2) = 280 add this to

5/24/2000 will equal 6/29/2001
3/7/2001 to 4/4/2001 L =20 trading days X4=80 added to 3/7/2001 = 6/29/2001

Natural number squares: 5/24/2000 to 6/29/2001 is 401 calendar days(400 is square of

20)

Last, 4/4/2001 to 6/29/2001 is 60 trading days.

Regards,

Haytham

P.S. I hope some has benefited from my previous messages(5/13/2001) # 5704 on RTsite
when I posted 5/22/2000 as a turning point for Nasdaq(it was actual turn) and recent
message on WITS site (6/17/2001) # 456 for projected turning point on 6/19/2001 -/+ 1
d(6/20/2001 was the actual low)

[email protected]

Gann said to watch for turning point on the 98th day (2 x 7squared).
6/29 @98 solar degree is 99 days from 3/22.
6/15 to 6/29 = 14 c. days
= 5/22 to 6/5

5/22 @61 solar x phi = 98.6 solar degree 6/29

--- In gannsghost@y..., leonoliver@y... wrote:

> Gann said to watch for turning point on the 98th day (2 x 7squared).
> 6/29 @98 solar degree is 99 days from 3/22.
>
> 6/15 to 6/29 = 14 c. days
> = 5/22 to 6/5

Excellent follow up, I never thought of it.

Haytham

[email protected]

> Some other evidence of 6/29/2001 turning point:

>
> 5/24/2000 L to 9/1/2000 H is 70 trading days X 4(natural square of
2) = 280 add this to 5/24/2000 will equal 6/29/2001
> 3/7/2001 to 4/4/2001 L =20 trading days X4=80 added to 3/7/2001 =
6/29/2001

This is the 100 trading day cycle everyone's following. 5/24/00L +

100 = 9/1/00H + 100 = 12/10/00H + 100 = 3/20/01L-2 + 100 = 6/28/01.

> Hi,
> Could you tell me the rules for selecting the
> turning dates and the numbers used to compute
> your time projections.
>
> Thank you,
> Seymour Schatz

Hello Seymour,

The rules are related to the seven principles of Hermes(Master of Masters), Gann(the
great master of the this century taking Galileo work to another dimension) and Natural
laws. Price and Time are expected to meet(balance) by the date mentioned(+/- 1 trading
day).
Also it is the natural square of 10 from major low for nasdaq on 4/4/2001 and end of
measured move down.

Regards,

Haytham

Now you know why. According to Gann it is sort of Rosa Christian superstition.
According to Vedas it is moon trine exaltation cycle to the stars. If you
add planetary aspects to this cycle, you get complete picture.

Gregory.

This business of subtracting 225 after multiplying the square root by 180 seems to cause
endless confusion.

But there is really nothing mysterious about it.

The point of subtracting 225 is to put the squares of even numbers on the 135 degree
angle and the squares of odd numbers on the 315 degree angle. If you didn't subtract 225
you would find, for example, that the number 16 (square of 4) would be on the 0 degree
angle (instead of on the 135 where it belongs). Similarly, if you don't subtract 225 you
will put the number 25 (square of 5) on the 180 degree angle
(instead of on the 315 where it belongs.

I've never had any success interpreting the numbers in the square of 9 as percentages.

Carl

Guys,

I need your help with some simple maths.

Michael Jenkins in one of his book; say's that when drawing the following angles on a
chart, you are infact drawing the divisions of price and not angles:

90/2=45
45/2=22.5
22.5/2=5.625

He says that half of a 45 Degree angle is an angle of 26.75 degrees

and not 22.5 degrees.
In fact Gann protractors have the 26.75* line.

Can anyone explain the rational behind this in laymans terms please.

Ron

This is just a matter of high school trigonometry.

Gann trend lines are drawn by choosing a starting point and then
moving to the right by N units of time and then up(or down) by K units of price.

Let's call the number N the "run" and the number K the "rise" (or the "fall" if the
trendline slopes downward).

In Gann theory we usually have the ratio of the "rise" to the "run",
i.e. the number K/N, as some power of two.

For example, a trendline that slopes upward might have the "run" be 1 and the "rise" be
equal to 2. This is what I call a 2 x 1 angle. It slopes upward 2 units of price for every 1
unit of time. So the number K/N in this example is 2.

As another example, the "run" is 2 and the "rise" is 1. This is a trendline that is the Gann
1 x 2 angle, it slopes upward 1 unit of price for every 2 units of time. So the number K/N
in this example is 1/2.

Now suppose we want to measure these trendlines by the trigonometric

angles they make with respect to any horizontal line. In other words,
we want to measure them with a protractor.

What trigonometric angle will the protractor measure?

From high school trigonometry we know that the TANGENT of any angle
is the given by the "rise" divided by the "run" of the sloping line
defined by the angle. (Here the TANGENT is a mathematical function
which you can find on your calculator by looking for the TAN key.)

So we know that our number K/N is the TANGENT of an unknown angle.

To find this unknown angle look for the ARCTAN or TAN^(-1) key on
your calculator. Then key in our number K/N and then press the ARCTAN
key. The answer will be in degrees. So you will find that for the 1
x 2 angle, K/N = 1/2 and ARCTAN (1/2)is 26.565 degrees as desired.

Carl
Hi Ron,

Hope you don't mind my butting in here but... you can find the answer to that question in
PD Osupensky's In Search of the Miraculous (which is on Gann's reading list) Chapter 7
where we talks about Octaves. One octave up is x2 one octave down is X1/2 etc.

Also here is a little memory tool Mrs. Burns taught me years ago:

Oscar => Opposite

------------------------------- SIN
Has => Hypotenuse

A => Adjacent
------------------------------- COSINE
Hat => Hypotenuse

On => Opposite
------------------------------- TANGENT
Always => Adjacent

-Rick

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/gann-square-of-nine.4129/page-2

Hi folks,

..... very busy right now, but while dinner is cooking, let's
look at the contruction of Gann's Sq09, so that everybody
is starting on the same page .....

Firstly, Sq09 is simply a primitive square root calculator, if

we start with 1 in the centre and use a 9 x 9 = 81 square

Yes, we can use significant highs or lows, like 13032003 low,

but in that way, we should be using it a little differently, as
we must also consider some longer time cycles, in the
equation.

Most of the commercial Gann Wheels (Sq09) are not really

complete, in the sense that he used many different overlays
to align price, time and geometry.

Technically, many Sq09 charts are inverted in their

construction, but it does not matter, until it comes time
to marry price and time together, with the planetary
overlays.

From 1, the count should be to the left for 2, then in

anti-clockwise mode for the rest of the count to 81.

Now, if you look at the chart, there should be a vertical and

horizontal lines across the centre, this is the Cardinal Cross
and represents one season of solar movement or 90 degrees
on a 360 degree dial.

That is, Gann's trading year started on March equinox,

represented by the horizontal axis and marked on the
left-hand side of your square ..... from there, every
90 degrees of solar movement finds a solstice or an
equinox, on the Cardinal Cross.

Next, we have another cross shown across the diagonals

of the square chart, known as the Fixed Cross.

Both crosses serve as support and resistance for the price

as it approaches each level, targetted by the crosses.

This also divides the circle into 8 x 45 degree segments,

just as Gann divided the RANGE of market moves by 8
to establish common support and resistance levels, as
used in Murrey Maths, etc.

=====
So, the daily increment commonly used is a step of 1 ... that
represents markets that move about one cent or dollar per
day, like corn and oats (1 cent) or gold (1 dollar),for
example.

For markets that move more than 1 unit/day, we adjust the

step-up to the appropriate value ..... you can find a list of
these for many commodity markets, in some Gann-related
books.

So, all that is fine, if we simply want to use a 360 degree

dial to represent a trading year and measure the time by
movement of the Sun.

=====

Two more overlays, that are important for the wheel,

feature a square and a triangle, pointing to the degrees
on the outer edge of the wheel ..... these are used to
determine 60/120 degree moves (trine), with the triangle
and 45/90 degrees moves (square), with the square overlay.

So, by having the overlays pivot around a common centre,

we can adjust each one to align with the planets marked
on the outer degree wheel, according to their current
positions, daily.

On some wheels, an additional overlay will show the calendar

for an entire year.

-----

When planets reach critical points on the dial, on the same

day as price hits support or resistance on the square, then a
market reversal may be imminent.
-----

Another use for the wheel is to gauge the price, as it

approaches "natural squares", within the number count,
on the wheel. ie 8 x 8 = 64.

-----

Most markets will be easy to read on the wheel, if the

correct "run-rate" is used ... ie x units/ day.

-----

Truth is, Gann tried a similar approach, using many different

geometric shapes, like hexagon and decagon charts as well.

-----

For more reading about Magic Squares, just google it or

refer to Abra Mehlin's works, along with several others,
like Granville Cooley, W.S. Andrews, Hyerczyck, etc .....
.....there's hundreds of different configurations, really.

-----

If you wish to delve further into the ancient history, then

read up on the Pythagorean Numbers and the Tetractys .....

..... absolutely fascinating stuff from the ancient world

of Socrates, Plato and the esoteric schools of Pythagoras.

-----

Suffice to say, most traders only use Sq09 as a mechanical

method of determining price against solar time of one
degree per day (roughly speaking).

However, by using different overlays for the inner and outer

planets, we can easily appreciate how price movements of a
particular stock, align with one particular planet, on Gann's
Sq09 Wheel.

For example:

TIM = Saturn's movements.

AZZ = Neptune's movements

There's lots more too, but that's enough before dinner ... lol

happy days

yogi

..... oooops, missed out these bits .....

By using the triangle and square on the planetary overlay,

we can optimize the planetary aspects, against the price
movements underneath, as well.

-----

Left-hand side of the chart at March equinox, also marks

zero degrees on the 360 degree dial and East on the zodiac,
for mundane purposes.

(See Sepharial's Cosmic Symbolism and “Geodetic

Equivalents").
happy days

yogi

Plotting the geometric positions of the plannets as they

rotate through the wheel allows us to pinpoint where an
opposition or grand trine alignment will occur at a particular
time in the future . Gann talked about live angles which is
where the longitude of the major plannets came into square
trine or opposition points on the 360 deg wheel . Certain
major opposition points could have a higher electromagnetic
influence as compared to smaller scale plannets in opposition
so the question of individual correlation is a difficult one to
estimate . A commodity might respond more consistently and
have larger scale long lasting movements when say two of
the major plannets align 180 deg . If we break this down
further how can I establish ( calculate ) the timing componet
( approx ) when these two majors will be in 180 opposition .
The two plannets could move into opposition on the 1st jan
2005 and as the opposition continues these two plannets
might not reach exact opposition till 15th jan and then fade
out of opposition on the 20th . so there is a timing window
which is in direct proportion to the scale and speed of the
plannets orbit .
Using this long time window to position into any given
instrument seems like a difficult task and as the plannetary
tables are accurate we have no problem there but accurately
co ordinating this imformation to position yourself at a low or
a cntr trend move has me a bit perplexed .
In an idealised situation we might find that our commodity
exhausts into low and turns trend on the 15th jan ( 180 deg
point ) which would provide us with a clear indication to
position long .
This cycle could also be confirmed further by two minor
plannets moving into aspect ( merc mars 126 deg
respectively ) .

But what happens if the trend continues down into the 20th
day which is at the tail end of the opposition and then starts
to turn up as the cycle fades and loses its influence . I can
appreciate that the major astronomical alignments do take
time to setup and move into exact alignment but from a
timing perspective there is a large window and the trend
could turn at any point within the cycle . there are wheels
within wheels and within this primary opposition a faster
moving planet might intersect the 180 deg point or a cluster
of plannets might move into conjunction which could be the
trigger and turn trend mid way or 3/4 through the cycle .

I need to spend alot of time with this stuff , not esoteric

dribble , it is too open to interpretation and unscientific . on
the other hand smaller oppositions can take place within the
wheel involving smaller planets , I guess it is all relative , you
might have the moon square jupiter and this cycle might only
run 2 days with excat opposition point occuring and fading
rather quickly compared to our last example .

It is very difficult to establish a precise link between the

geometrical position of the planets and their directional
influence on price . Each instrument has a set of unique
properties that defines its molecular makeup . Lets take NAB
as an example . its incorporation date is 2361893 . we can
see the exact planetary degree , house and astrological
ascendant on that date .
These are the signature properties that make up NAB . Gann
would create a horoscope from this imformation and we see
his reference in TTTA where he says " I am unable to make
up a presidential forecast because I do not have the full
names of the candidates " this has a higher meaning and
could possibly suggest that he was using Pythagorean
Numerology to code the names down to single digit ( Tokyo J
) so I think he was looking for a symmetrical balance
between the astrological data , the name of the instrument
and how this imformation could be used and integrated
alongside his planetary analysis . It is easy to reverse
engineer cause and suggest that a major opposition between
saturn and uranus will turn trend on all gold stocks because
uranus is the primary controller of gold and is located 20 deg
45 min into taurus . This is a discretionary form of astro
economics as it doesnt scientifically relate planetary
longitude to the signature properties of that instrument .
Markets expand and contract at different points on the
astrological grid . A 90 deg square between saturn uranus
jupiter neptune is a major planetary event and perhaps the
increased magnetic frequency between these planets might
affect a broad range of instruments across several
international mkts -/+ 1 due to the magnitude of the
configuration .
Integration of fixed and astrological cycles is an interesting
area to look at . it setups a a range of possibilities but then
again I guess we are only able to decode a segment of what
is driving the mkt at any given point
Any help is appreciated
Will talk tonight Yogi .

1632007 : Was this a a significant planetary event ?

looking at the zodiac wheel :

mars and jupiter forming an opposition , this cycle started

1182007 with the strongest 180 deg opposition point on
2282007 and from there the cycle faded out .
The close conjunction between mercury 144 deg venus 145
deg and saturn 147 deg trine pluto looks interesting . these
three conjunctions are in leo and in some situations market
major mkt lows seem to occur when three or more planets
are in conjunction under one sign , this cant be statistically
proven of course but it is just a general observation from
what I have studied so far .

The major low came out on the 16th so I dont think we could
really draw a precise correlation between the point of the low
and the exact degree between the opposition as they were
several days apart , the strongest point of the opposition was
the 22nd and the low came in on the 16th so from a timing
perspective it would be hard to to say that the opposition
was the primary trigger to turn trend up due to the timing
discrepancy .
Jupiter was in Sagitarius at this point which is the sign
equivalent but this line of information is sketchy and doesn't
really provide us with any tangible information to base our
decision on .

Conjunction trine Pluto does look strong with the three

planets in close aspect . breaking this down further we can
see the first two planets to form conjunction were Venus and
saturn on 1382007 and then our fast moving planet mercury
88 days came into alignment with venus and saturn on the
16th which marked the low which might indicate that when a
fast plannet comes into alignment with two larger plannets of
the same degree it could serve as a directional trigger on
certain stocks , I dont know , this has been discussed on may
beans so there might be something there ?

I guess there are several ways to use this information and

project it fwd
Gann says to mark your major lows in red and your major
highs in green and then move fwd 30 45 60 90 120 deg . I
have just realised what he was doing and it is not using
geometric time and price scaling .

Merc 144.66 + 30 deg = 174.66 sept 1st

Venus 145.65 + 30 deg = 175.65 nov 4th
Jupiter 250.07 + 30 deg = 280.07 feb 1st

will pick this up next week .

Gazzelle

Your request for a chart is appreciated although it is quite

difficult to post one as I work between two mediums . The
trading platform I am using is Gann Trader which is quite a
cumbersome old programme that works on a DOS basis and
doesnt have the capabilities or functions to take a screen
shot and save it to a file . I have unsuccessfully tried to do
this on several occasions and unlike metastock it will not
allow it but that doesnt matter as I can provide a detailed
commentary on each trade or forecast that I am preparing .
Lets not allow small trivial technicalities to interfere or
detract from our analysis and besides I dont really like to
post my charts and calculators within the public domain . My
decision to remain private in my research and calculations is
not through that of ignorance but some of techniques and
principles that I have discovered over years of patient and
meticulous study have been deservedly achieved and even
though some of methods are consistently accurate in
prognosticating market turning points well in advance of the
event taking place , sometimes in certain instances the
calculations and alignment of time cycles into a projected
date will not work out in the expected manner which is why I
have a well structured trading plan laid out in advance that
estimates projected risk on each trade and how I can exit
that position if the market doesnt conform to my measures
and principles . perhaps this is due to gaps within my
knowledge base or lack of understanding certain sections ,
but sometimes I just sit back and wonder how Gann was able
to consistently prognosticate nearly every turning point
within the wheat or beans market before that physical
movement actually took place with such a high degree of
accuracy .

Gann said that all market movements occur as the result of a

Natural Law and the Cause exists long before the Effect takes
place and if we can identify and understand how those forces
will exert themselves upon the market or a particular
commodity then we can begin to build a conceptual
framework into how these deterministic laws prevail and
exert themselves upon certain instruments at a particular
point in time . If we have the appropriate knowledge and
information before us then we should be able to predict or
estimate how this force or field of electromagnetic energy will
impact the instrument under observation and whether it will
have a positive or negative impact .

Being able to consistently predict accurate turning points

within the soybean market or The FTSE is really only one part
of the equation . Lets look at the Top on Lumber 27th
December 316 1/4 . On this date certain Timing influences
moved into directional alignment and cumulatively exerted
their line of influence on the Lumber Market so for an astute
observer who is trained in the principles of Natural Law he
was able to interpret this information and apply it to the
movement in Lumber but these Laws are universal and can
mostly be applied to almost anything , but picking the Top is
only a small component within the overall trade . how strong
is the influence and how far in time can we expect this
movement to decline before we can exit our position . How
far in price will the movement carry down . and how much of
this movement can we realistically expect to capture . My
initial estimate indicates that price could trade down into the
11th January before a mild upward swing which would
provide us with a 14 - 15 day campaign but at this point in
time I dont have the knowledge or skills to estimate a price .
90 degrees = 298 180 degrees = 281 270 degrees = 265
and 360 degrees = 249 as potential estimates . From there
you could project the Geometric Angles and note them as
support points . I am also looking at a Top in the FTSE on the
31st December 2010 .

Robert Gordon

Nice cat Ruby . My friend has one identical called Bubbles

and he is approaching 17 years old . I suppose in the eye of
the practitioner all analytical techniques are credible and as
Tech has pointed out it is very important to keep your
approach as simple as possible and ensure that you have a
comprehensive and intuitive understanding of the techniques
or methods that you employ and how they perform over a
range of market conditions . Whether you are looking to
trade counter trend reactions within an established long pull
trend utilizing the retracement levels and timing projections
of RN Elliot as your primary trading mechanism , at least you
are approaching the market with a well constructed plan that
would incorporate risk assesment on the given trade , what
stage of the market are looking to trade and how far can you
expect price to move against you before you activate your
stops and or if you have a re entry strategy .

I think it is very important to differentiate and recognise the

difference between a forward point in time that is projected
on a purely arbitrary basis . What I mean by this is just
beacause a stock has a historical tendency to turn trend
every 30 days doesnt neccesarily mean that it is an absolute
timing mechanism because you are really only observing the
effect and therefore you are only seeing one side of the
equation without developing an understanding into the
underlying principles and force structures that actually cause
the market to change trend at that given point in time .
This is what Gann was doing , he was studying and
projecting forward timing points in wheat or corn based on a
detailed examination of causes , the cause exists long before
the effect takes place and it is just as easy to go forward 30
days or one year and look for symetrical alignment between
timing and price co ordinates but gee it is hard . it is akin to
looking at the face of a watch and you can see the minute
and hourly hands and the seconds ticking past but as the
watch is a closed mechanism you cant see or understand the
timing mechanics unless you take the case off the watch and
peer inside and then we can truly identify and understand the
magnetics or revoultions that really create time .

Just because Corn is 90 days from low to high doesnt

necesarily constitute a change in trend although this is one
quarter of the earths revolution and sometimes important
timing points to co incide with winter or summer equinox
points . The proportionate parts of the circle are an important
timing mechanism and when multiple civil time frames move
into directional alignment it is an important place to look for
a possible change in trend but still we are not investigating
the natural principles of cause that determine prices to top
and bottom and Gann did leave clues and imformation on
how he applied these elements but its a long and tedious
process to fit the pieces togethor and if you think it is more
important and pertinent to discuss or restructure my writing
style than discuss timing techniques and natural law you are
really just treading water and have no interest in Gann which
is the way he intended somewhat .

Robert Gorden

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversat
ions/topics/2779

In the Bible look for this verse

Ecclesiastes 1 : 2-11.

It appears in all Holy Books..just look for a similar worded verse

stephen

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversat
ions/topics/5553

I have been studying Gann rules for some time and am confused with
one particular Gann calculation maybe someone could help clarify.

...and I quote from his letters...

"Example: Dec 2, 1953, May Soybeans high 311-1/4. This equaled 18
degrees 45' in Pisces."

Would this not be 18 Degrees 45' prior to Pisces? 18 Degrees 45' in

Pisces is 348.75 degrees.

He goes further to say "... or 90 degrees of Jupiter" Since Jupiter is 82.85 Geo and 80.46
Helio, squaring the 348.75 to the Jupiter Helio is within a 2 Deg orb.

appreciate any advice.

thanks - Duane

Duane:

I know the answer to this question because it is covered in Mr. Ferrera's "Gann Unveiled
course." The problem you are having is that Gann is not doing a straight longitude
conversion. Gann is using the circle chart for these calculations, which is based on the
number "24", i.e. the number of hours it takes for the Earth to rotate 360-deg on it's axis.
As a straight longitude, 311.25 would equal 11-deg 15-min Aquarius. On the circle chart,
this number is located in Pisces. Take a look at the "Circle Chart". This should help.

Vera ([email protected])

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/1892

If you just read Gann's work you will find all the answers....there are no real secrets. Take
the S & P 500 cash index.......Major low 1st week January 1950 at 16.65.......March 24th
2000 All time High.........Helio Jupiter moved 1531 * (degrees) plus 16 gives 1547,
Saturn Helio moved 614*....at 2.5 points per degree gives 1535 + 16 =1551.........602
months at 2.5 points per month = 1521.
October 1999 Low 1232......2/8 plus mini 1/8 gives 1552. Recent low March 22nd at
1081........when price fell below 1232 it moved back into the previous range of 923 -
1552.......range 2/8ths plus 923 gives 1080.25. Also 1 year from High. 1081 is also part of
an octave from both 1552 and lower top of 1530 (September). All you have to remember
is Gann used 1/8ths and 1/3rds......and an octave has 8
UNEQUAL divisions. Also divisions of octaves can themselves be divided into mini
octaves....up to 6 times according to PD Ouspensky.
I hope this has been useful.

Neil

Here is a good website on explaining scales and modes.

http://www.kent.wednet.edu/staff/dyadon/scales_modes.html

Scales are classfied into different types based on their interval pattern.
Most people are familiar with the Major scale such a a C Major = C D EF G A BC
However, as you will see at the referenced website, there are as many modes as there are
notes.
This in part is determined by where the scale is started, as it doesn't have
to start on the same note as indicated by its key, such as C Major, which is
in the key of C, starts on C and ends on C with no flats or sharps. If one
starts a C scale three notes away and plays the same notes but ending one
octave from where you started this would be a C minor. So you see major or
minor are only two of several possible modes. All Major scales follow the
above pattern, regardless of key, whole step, whole step, half step, whole
step, whole step, whole step, half step. Above, please note (pun alert!)
the intervals between the letters. Where the letters are touching, this is a
half tone which = 1.0594631. This number is based on all half tones of a
chromatic scale which is all possible half tones in an octave = 12 notes. If
you multiply 1.0594631 12 times you will get approximately 2. An octave or
the same note one octave higher is two times the frequency of its lower
note. For example, a symphony tunes to the Violin open A string (one of 4
strings on the violin) = 440 cycles per second. 880 cps is also an "A" and
so is 220 cps. One can use these principles to figure out what tune the
market is playing. For example, I recollect that the cash S&P 500 topped on
March 24, 2000 at 1563? (I could be off by a few points - correct me if I am
wrong). You can use A 440 as a base. Go down two 1/2 intervals or divide 440
by 1.0594631 two times = 392 which is G . Now go up two octaves by
multiplying 392 by 2 and then again by 2 = two octaves = 1568 So you can
see that the top for the S&P 500 was near G. Now the question to ask is, in
what mode will the ensuing bear market be, such as will it decline ala G
Major, G Minor etc. One can tell by the first major levels on which it stops
or bounces. It would not be surprising for the market to chose a minor
scale for its decline becuase this is the scale for sad or "bluesie" type
music. Bull markets are probably in Major keys. But, that would just be my
first guess in our Name That Tune analysis. Anyway, have fun with this and
please share any inspriations you may get with the list.

Now, for a story as how to get good at this stuff. One day a young
musician was rushing down a New York City sidewalk to get to his concert
with violin case in hand, . He suddenly and unknowling crashed into famed
violinist Isaac Stern. Startled, he looked up and hurriedly said,
"Sir, could you please tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?" Isaac Stern
replied with paced deliberation, "Practice...., practice...., practice!"

That's our music lesson for today. Remember, practice..., practice...,

practice!!

Musically,

Norman

P.S. Please feel free to correct any facts that may be wrong. I started
violin at age 8 but was mostly taught only how to play the notes in front of
me and almost no music theory. Most of the little bit of music theory I
know I learned on my own in the past few years. Isaac Stern wasn't
available.<G>

Serge,
Just stick with the simple scale.....do = 1, re = 9/8, mi = 5/4, fa =
4/3, sol = 3/2, la = 5/3, si = 15/8, do = 2.
You can see each of these equates to Gann's 1/8ths and 1/3rds. Can
you see the retardation in the increase between mi and fa and si and
do? Now reread Gann's Ticker Tape interview when he talks about
vibrations and stocks at times becoming slow and other times becoming
active and leading the market. Also the space between do and re, re
and mi etc can also be divided into octaves ( up to a maximum of 6
times according to PD Ouspensky). PD Ouspensky also says that a
vibration can begin anywhere at a point in time (read price), Gann
used the all time low as Do and followed forever on and upwards. I am
amazed at how people want to make things regarding Gann so
complicated.........just read his Profits book and buy either his
Commodities Course(which I use) or his Stock Course, they seem to be
self explanatory.
> Norman ,

Hello Neil,

I appreciate your posts. Can you please help me by specifying in which

book Ouspensky wrote about vibrations and scales ?

Cheers

Ola

Ola.....Hi,
In Search of the Miraculous........pages 122 - 140….read last 2 lines of page 124 and first
paragraph on page 125.....then reread Gann's Ticker Tape interview.......uncanny.
Also page 128 shows how a vibration returns to its starting point after 6 full octaves......a
completed circle. Hope you get as much from it as I did.

Neil

Alex,
I believe you can buy the tape of her presentation for $89 from the MTA
A quick search of my files found this description of her presentation;
Constance Brown, CMT, CPO, of Aerodynamic Investments Inc., delivered a
multimedia marvel that tested the limits of PowerPoint and demonstrated what
lies at the edges of research in the discipline of technical analysis. Brown began
with an overview of Gann's Square of Nine and explained how it overlapped
some of the ratios that occur in the Fibonacci Square that creates the well-
known spiral. She then promised to decode the mystery behind the Square of
Nine. The bottom line is that we learned that Gann's price wheels are calculators
that identify harmonic frequencies.
Beginning her proof in ancient Greece, most of the audience learned for the first time that
Pythagoras discovered the Golden Ratio in 560 BC by means of sound. He heard metal
banging against metal while walking past what could be considered a blacksmith shop
and that discovery led to his belief that mathematics and music defined universal laws.
Pythagoras further postulated that celestial and acoustic motion have the same methodical
basis. Brown explained that within the cult-like following that developed around
Pythagoras, only propositions proven by math were accepted as universal truths.
Brown explained that Galileo the astronomer was in fact trying to study motion and
harmonic relationships in our solar system from the musical propositions defined by
Pythagoras. Galileo's work in music was later continued by the famous Swiss
mathematician named Leonard Euler, which Brown explained led to the equal tempered
twelve-tone musical scale with logarithmically equal intervals between each tone that we
are familiar with today. This is when we saw mathematical evidence that all of Gann's
Angles used to define critical trendlines in charts were in fact cyclical octaves. But
Octaves alone would not define all the numbers within a Gann Wheel so we had to learn
more about the mathematics of historical music scales and there construction to decode
the Square of Nine.
The modern day music scale has major harmonic flaws and we learned how only an
ancient scale retained perfect relationships that surprisingly duplicated the ratios within
the Fibonacci Square. Brown then used advanced geometrical concepts to convert a linear
music scale into a three dimensional matrix and we saw how it transformed into Gann's
Hexagon Wheel. This concept evolved further and we saw how the Hexagon Wheel was
in fact an icosahedron, a three dimensional model incorporating the Golden Ratio and a
model first described by Plato. Obviously, we operate with some good company.
Adding another layer of proof to her thesis, Connie displayed copies of the original pages
of Galileo's work on motion that introduced in 1609 the "Theorem of Equivalence." We
had thought Gann had first defined this concept, but what Gann called price/time
equivalence was in fact Galileo's Theorem of Equivalence applied.
cheers
TS

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gannsghost/conversations/topics/2024

Just a thought. If planetary influences affect human emotions (activity) shouldn't or

wouldn't that be reflected in volume levels rather than price action? TA's who know
volume say that Volume leads price action. Gann also says that no Bull or Bear market
can take place before adequate accumulation or distribution takes place, we are all aware
how market makers can manipulate prices to reflect their own holdings but they can't hide
volume. Maybe someone should look at volume levels during the waxing and waning of
orbs. If anyone has done any work on this I would be interested in discussing this with
them.

Hi Gentlemen,
The reason I mentioned volume was as follows, if astrology works as people say on this
site, then say, take the Natal chart of IBM when Jupiter or Saturn etc approaches the Asc,
MC Sun or Moon or an important trine or square is formed surely activity(emotion) in the
form of increased or decreased volume should occur. For those who ignore Natals and
just use the mass psychology at times of angular transits then surely that should also
show up in increased or decreased activity, ie increased volume on down days due to
negative influences etc. I'm not decrying astrology because as you've seen I have used
Heliocentric degrees in getting price targets for the S&P 500. We seem to have a similar
argument on this site as that between Stock fundamentalists and technical analysts, if all
knowledge is encapsulated in the price why worry about a companies potential future
earnings etc ( read astros). None of these comments are meant to inflame anyone's
feelings, on the contrary, if the comments come back help then I guess we all benefit.

Some time ago I wrote about being excited by a book I had bought called Selected
writings by George Lindsay......one section was called Interpreting the Stock Market Day
-By-Day. He explained a method of trading the Dow without using any indicators or
timing signals that could be completed in a few minutes per day......pretty cool I thought!
I started tracking his method on 6-22-01. I trade the S&P so I used his method on that
index because it was roughly at the same level the Dow was in his example from 1979-
1980. Only the volatility levels ie: the days spread was changed to allow wider ranges.
These are the results to date.
Buy 6-27.........Sell 7-2.......Buy.....7-10...1 day early on S&P500 exact on
Dow........Sell.......7-19....The next bit was tricky but with more data and a bit of logic it
would be obvious (thank heavens for stops!)......No signal but 7-25 was way above any
previous level in terms of up-down volume and near equal highs of advances - declines....
Sell 8-2-01. Still short until new signal appears. No MA's, no stochastics no cumulative
volumes etc etc......no astrology!
I'm sure this would also work on the Nasdaq because that has its own advances, declines
and up down volume figures.
On a side note I came across a $10 book called Sun, Moon, & Earth...only a small book
but really an eye opener....especially in regard to how the ancients knew phi and its
relation to the above cycles over 4500 years ago.....it may also inadvertently have given
the clue to the Biblical 40 days and 40 nights.....the moons apsides move 40* each year
and also mentions a lot about sq roots angles etc etc.....ISBN 0-8027-1381-5.....another
companion book is Sacred Geometry also $10 (again an amazing eye opener- an 8 sided
star in a square can exactly divide it into 9,16, or 25 - the squares of 3,4 and 5.....I never
knew that!!).....ISBN 0-8027-1382-3.
Happy Trading

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TunnelThruTheAir/conversations/topics/5698

I am not certain if I have said it before or not but my back and forward testing have
shown that with the DJIA and certain other international equity market indices TTTTA
operates as a gigantic formula containing a sequence of calendar day cycles which yields
tops/bottoms with predictability of inversions . This formula is transposed into the future
or past for testing on a sliding scale based on a set angle motion heliocentrically by a
major planet . The exact dates for tops and bottoms are modulated by planet positions , I
have not yet found out those planetary conditions essentially because I have not started
the work , what I do have is the approx dates of the main tops/lows within 2 weeks plus
or minus . It works to a T on the DJIA from before WW I to well after the story ends . In
some overseas markets like the EGX 30 Egypt it works to a T for a period from 1997 to
2018 with jaw dropping accuracy .
I would have liked to supply details but if I ever want to write and publish something
outrageously expensive the news would be out :( .
I have not found any solution to the Bible quotes , poems , spelling mistakes yet nor to
the inventions , nor have I correlated the timing with prices yet .

Regards,

Serge

Hi Harvey ,

I want to give one example only to illustrate one point . It will be a question
to you about paragraph number 2 on page 199 . Have you worked it out at the
superficial level ?

Regards,

Serge

Hi, Serge!

On 8/4/18, teknalko astrostrata@... [TunnelThruTheAir]

<[email protected]> wrote:
> I want to give one example only to illustrate one point . It will be a
> question to you about paragraph number 2 on page 199 . Have you worked it
> out at the superficial level ?

Two parts to my response:

(1) A technicality of English grammar is that a paragraph on a page means a paragraph

that STARTS on a page (sometimes referred to as a "full paragraph"). Thus,
*technically*, the 2nd paragraph on page 199 begins, "Days, weeks and months...."
However, a lot of people would consider the paragraph that begins, "October, 1927...", to
be the 2nd paragraph. Which "paragraph" are you referring to?

(2) In either case above, the answer to your question is "no". An online market friend and
I are plugging away at "decoding" TTTTA, but other topics seem to catch our attention,
too. I know bits and pieces of TTTTA, and I have been learning more and more little by
little since 2009--at least until now. I say that because I am now a "student"/participant in
Lorrie Bennett's LOV by the Patterns and LOV by the Numbers (the first 2 volumes of
4--the other two are LOV by the Planets and LOV by Geometry), published by Sacred
Science. These are quite a large amount of information to absorb and apply, so it's going
to take me a long while. (Besides, at age 72, I'm in the middle of a multi-month project of
moving in with one of my daughters.) As you most likely already know, there are NDAs
(non-disclosure agreements) for these, and so I 'm not permitted to talk about anything in
these volumes.

I realize my "no" answer to your question may be disappointing, but that's all I can
honestly say at this point, given the holes in my knowledge of TTTTA. If my friend and I
get to "decoding" that portion of the book, I'll be happy to perhaps give you a different
answer at that time.

Thanks for your inquiry! (I thought this group had "died", but I'm so glad that you seem
to have resurrected it again!)

Harvey

Hi Swagman,

The code Peter wrote had no meaning and my response with Jupiter/Uranus
trines had no intended meaning either 😂.
Now back to business reading Gann , he referred to October and sunshine
and the previous October in 1926. Take it from me you are not meant to
interpret or decode anything , you are meant to find FACTS Gann left for
you because anything that anybody decodes and interprets without FACTS
which cannot be disputed is utter BS.
1. Look up the Geo ephemeris for October 1926 you find Sat/Uranus trine on
30/10 , in the Helio ephemeris the Sat/Uranus trine is on 24/10 the day
after the date he gives on 23/10 with sunshine again.
2. In Oct 27 in Geo there is nothing and in Helio there is on 28/10 a
Jupiter/Uranus Conjunction .
3.In Ch 5 Gann mentions the end of troubles to be on 15/7/32 however on
15/7/27 there is the Geo Jupiter /Uranus conjunction. On 9/7/1932 you
have the Jupiter/Uranus trine the day after the Crash Low. In Helio the
Jupiter/Uranus trine comes on 22/02/1932 .
4.In the File section you will find Promotional Material from Gann and one of
his customers said that Gann in Feb 1932 called the end of the bear
market ......was this related to what is written above ????
5. The key to unravelling all this is to painstakingly work out time intervals
between story events and market events and relationship to facts and not
people's interpretations and opinions to get testable events with reliable
recurrence.
More than that I will not divulge.

Happy Digging .