Peter, interview 3, 19.09.

19 (at Peter’s home)

Information about Peter (names and places have been anonymised throughout):
Peter* is a 29 year old white British father. He and his partner, Malcolm, conceived their
young daughter with the help of an egg donor and surrogate. They have now started the
process of having a second child, using eggs from the same donor and a different
surrogate. Peter makes limited use of social media and is wary of public social media,
especially where his daughter is concerned (he avoids sharing information about her
publicly). However, he has a tight network of friends and family, who are closely involved
in his life. He has worked hard to build a local network of friends, who he sees regularly,
and to sustain relationships with more distant family and friends. He is close to his mum
and she is in the process of moving to live nearby, so she can spend more time with him
and Lucy, and offer more practical support with childcare. He keeps in touch with his
family and friends largely through WhatsApp and other mediated channels such as
telephone and Skype. Peter has a Masters in Music and works part-time as a musician,
spending the rest of the time with his daughter.

*all information is true as of May 2019, the mid-point in data construction.

Notes: timestamps are given at regular intervals. J = Jai Mackenzie, the interviewer. P =
Peter, the interviewee.

04:26
J: I was going to ask as well how your second surrogacy was going

P: er it's ticking along we are at the IVF stage

J: oh ok

P: so we're just going through IVF cycles until we

J: ok

P: fall pregnant

J: and have you stuck with this person who y you were talking about before

P: y er yes s so

J: can't remember their name

P: we s it was it's c Rose

J: yes

P: so Lucy's surrogate was Jess

J: mmm

P: so Rose is is erm er we're working with her w to carry for us this time erm so yeah
we've had a er yeah the first cycle her erm uterus lining didn't thicken enough so
J: ok

P: they didn't implant and then we've had one failed implant

J: ok

P: so we'll now do one more and then er if that doesn't take there's now a new test assay

J: ok

P: if that means anything to you

J: no

P: erm which they can do which allows them to know t erm th that assay they basically
do it on a mock cycle and then from that they c well they but they do it on a cycle which
they don't implant

J: mmhmm

P: and erm from that they can tell the optimum time plus or minus twelve hours ter erm
give progesterone

J: oh wow

P: erm ter make t ter really optimise fertility

J: yeah

P: but he said that it'll tell me whether y'know I should do it like six hours earlier six hours
later so wow

J: yeah that's really specific

P: I mean really really specific so erm if if we then aren't pregnant then we would look to
another surrogate

J: ok

P: hopefully (laughs)

J: yeah

P: [inaudible] the next three months

J: cos this is her first one isn't it

P: it is erm so yeah I mean he said that the surrogacy s the IVF success rates for
surrogacy in our kind've where there are no natural fertility problems

J: mmhmm
P: it's around er seventy to eighty per cent

J: mmhmm

P: so it's quite high erm did she say eighty per cent I c er yeah but it's high

J: mmm

P: it's significantly higher than a man and a woman going to it as a last resort

J: yeah

P: so

J: yeah

P: fingers crossed

J: yeah [whispers - inaudible] but yeah I can imagine it's I don't know well I know what
it's like y'know trying for a a baby the the kinda usual way and it's only kind've

P: yeah

J: waiting and

P: well and the waiting and also I cos I'm quite a big sharer and I had told maybe more
people than I should've done

J: ok

P: what we're doing

J: yeah

P: and then they were asking and

J: yeah

P: like asking really excitedly and bounding up

J: mmm

P: and I was like ah god I and I's really I hadn't seen this coming because with Lucy it
was first try and we fell pregnant on the first cycle it was s just everything fell into place
and yeah that er I thought idiot why did I

J: mmm mmm

P: why did I tell people I just shouldn't have done that

J: yeah
P: because then I had to explain to people who frankly I didn't really wanna explain to

J: yeah

07:18
P: erm and we've just sort've gone with the party line of oh we're just going through IVF
cycles and then I just kind've stop talking (laughs)

J: yep

P: erm and not really commenting for detail other than but er it's just made me think
y'know we shouldn't've

J: yeah

P: just shouldn't

J: it's a difficult one isn't it

P: it is difficult and as soon as you have your first people then start saying oh so when
are you having your second

J: mmm

P: and they can't and it's this sort've dog with a bone and maybe it's people that I don't
know so well so it's just something to talk about

J: mmm

P: but yeah that's kinda so

J: yeah

P: that's kind've where we're at with number two

J: yeah yeah ok

P: I'd just like ter be pregnant now (laughs)

J: yeah yeah

P: erm

J: I totally get that

P: not that it's been long I mean it's been such a quick process we started (clicks with
tongue) where are we oh we're on September so I think we started couldn't be more
than six months ago

J: mmhmm
P: I mean not long

J: yeah cos I think it's about five or six months since I saw you and you you were at the
beginning of me of meeting

P: yeah

J: Rose

P: yeah so maybe six to eight then

J: yeah

P: but it's still it's not been long

J: yeah no

P: and in fact yeah I mean two of those months have been yeah er no three of those
months have been IVF-ing

J: yeah yeah

P: erm so yeah we're we're sort've got to the point of let's go pretty quick

J: it's all so like far away like physically far away

P: mmm

J: what what's it feel like when all that's going on like er miles and miles and miles away

P: I don't think it feels any different being on the west coast to if they were on the east

J: yeah

P: the diff what makes it noticeable is the cultural differences

J: oh ok

P: so things like I mean they're just so irritating and poor at customer service erm which I
wonder if because it's I I think I probably would feel the same if we were going with
private healthcare in this country

J: mmhmm

P: I wouldn't feel like this with the NHS

J: mmhmm

P: for obvious reasons but erm so when this tr when this IVF erm run didn't take erm our
our clinician was on holiday and so they we they sort've left us a voicemail saying oh
please can you phone the office so we phoned the office and this this woman said oh w
what nurse was it that rang and left a message oh w dunno sorry didn't make a note of it
oh right long pause and so w'like (laughs) so could you go find out who it was that rang
us please she's like oh yeah sure ok I'll go do that y y'know and and it's like so that then
happened then so Nate Nate’s not available so then no one else was offered to offer us
some consultation

J: mmm yeah

P: when we did then have a consult with him which was er a week er l l l this week

J: mmhmm

P: erm a coupla days ago he said erm oh yeah no difference whether you go back-to-
back cycle erm you don't need to have a clear cycle in between IVF attempts

J: yeah

P: you can just go back-to-back it doesn't make any difference we're like oh well that's a
real shame then Nate because we've missed Rose's cycle for this month now because
you because we couldn't get any response out of your office and we did complain to him
about how poor his admin is he's one of the partners after Lucy cos we had problems
there as well

J: yeah yeah

P: erm so I think all of that sort've stuff and the fact that they just and then they when
we're trying to say like we're not happy with this they don't see why it's a problem and
that's that's immensely frustrating

J: yeah

P: erm

J: yeah

P: and it and it just feels like something's getting lost in translation

J: yeah yeah

P: despite us both being English but (laughs) all being English but y'know erm that

J: is that the person that you liaise with based in America

P: yeah so e everyone is based in Holt except for erm a guy called Aidan who is

J: yeah

P: the co-ordinator of the surrogacy

J: yep

P: and he basically erm we met him at the alternative parenting show now like fffour
years ago
J: mmhmm

P: erm and er he had twins and then set up a consultancy to help people with their
surrogacies in the states

J: yep yep but now you I imagine you'd don't have as much contact with him now you're
rolling

P: well this for for for subsequent surrogacies he's he halves his fee

J: oh nice

P: which is really nice

J: yeah yeah

P: because we know that much more about the process

J: yeah yeah

P: he knows that much more about us and it is significant it is it is less work for him

J: yeah

P: without doubt

J: yep

P: but erm basically we keep him CCed to everything and he oversees and he's there as
a a kind of advisor when we don't know but also when we're like we feel like this level of
service isn't really acceptable he then can fight that on our behalf

J: yeah

P: erm and that's quite nice because he's a step removed

J: mmm

P: from both sides

J: ok yeah yeah

P: so erm so it does feel like it's a long way away

[talking to builders]

P: erm so i it all it I am aware of the distance I guess I think Rose's finding it quite hard

J: mmm

P: it being her first and the fact that it hasn't gone a hundred per cent smoothly
J: yeah

P: I think she's taken that quite hard

12:38
J: yeah

P: er which I can understand (sighs)

J: yeah you said I think you said that you thought that one of the reasons she wanted to
do it with you was cos you had more chances and that that might be less worrying for
her

P: yeah

J: so she might feel less pressured

P: I mean we've still got seven embryos

J: yeah yeah

P: and and yeah I think that's completely legitimate

J: yeah

P: erm yeah because when you've got a couple coming in and they've only got one
maybe two embryos that's a lot of pressure

J: yeah mmm

P: and if yeah there isn't a guarantee if if their crop to get those was so small in the first
place it's no guarantee they'd be able to get any more again

J: yeah

P: so erm so yeah

J: yeah makes sense

P: mmm

J: ok so terminology

P: mmhmm

J: (laughs) erm so the first kind've the first kind've terminology that I'm thinking about is
w what words I use to describe everybody together so all of my participants so got only
you who's done surrogacy quite a few have used adoption erm quite a few have used
donor conception one who's used kind've an infor more informal co-parenting
arrangement erm there's people who are who are lesbian gay bi single erm I think got
only one heterosexual couple so there's sort of quite a big range of people who are all
kind've got different kinds of families

P: mmm

J: but what I want to look at is sort've across everybody and what h what what people
have in common and what people don't have in common and and to find some language
to to capture everybody

P: difficult

J: so yeah when I started the project and I I called it Marginalised Families Online and
that's what I called it f from the start so this this word marginalised was what I used
partly to be honest with a view to funders and what funders want to see

P: yeah

J: and to emphasise the fact that these are marginalised groups in society erm but
actually it's one that people themselves have not always liked could be they're people
may not see themselves as mar marginalised

P: mmhmm

J: erm don't think it applies to them or perhaps think it's negative erm so there's various
reasons that people don't like marginalised erm I think alternative is a bit more er less
negative

P: yep

J: t so sort've alternative families has been used or new families has been used erm but
some kind've a term that I've been sort've thinking of using is extra-ordinary families
because

[builders interrupt]

J: erm so this term extra-ordinary families kind've captures captures the extra-ordinary
beyond the ordinary element it's more positive erm and it kinda captures the kind've
extra-ordinary lengths that everybody has gone to so I think in your case probably those
extra-ordinary lengths are in actually sort've conceiving Lucy and then your hopefully
next child (laughs) erm and then for others those extra-ordinary lengths have really
continued on into kind've raising their children to adulthood some of them so some of
them have got quite o got older children

P: ok

J: erm especially adopters have really had to continue to go to really extra-ordinary

lengths to kind've

P: yeah
J: give the children the best that they can so that possibly that term is something I'm
playing with as something that kind've captures lots of different elements of different
families it's much more positive

P: mmm

J: but I wonder whether whether people might feel a bit uncomfortable about it seeming
a bit too positive

P: erm yeah

J: (laughs)

16:26
P: I mean I I think I I'm I don't particularly think marginalised really fits to my experience

J: yeah

P: erm er I like alternative

J: mmhmm

P: families I think that er encapsulates it er quite cleanly I mean I I'd have no problem
with extra-ordinary

J: mmm

P: and I completely see the rationale it sounds slightly disneyfied

J: yeah that's what I s I wonder

P: but (laughs) erm so that would be my only thought but I mean like in the context I
think it's

J: yeah

P: it's understandable

J: yeah it's one some terms go too far one way kinda sounding too negative and then
some terms sound almost too too positive

P: mmm

J: so I don't know I think it I think people probably have a natural tendency to sort've
think to downplay as well what they do oh gosh no I'm not not that good no I'm not not
extra-ordinary so I don't know whether that might be something that people don't feel
comfortable with

P: yeah er and and I think that's why of all those terms that you've just said I think
alternative would be the one that resonates the most for me

J: mmm
P: erm but it's not something I would I wouldn't pick it up and be like oh god well I'm not
gonna read it because it's been called this

J: (laughs)

P: like erm

J: yeah ok ok erm what and what kind've like language do you use around describing
your family if you were explaining your family

P: (groans)

J: to someone who really had never come across anything but the standard nuclear
family

P: erm I don't have anything particularly succinct and to be honest I find it hard enough
finding language to just say that 'm gay (laughs)

J: yeah really

P: erm yeah I erm I mean gosh I was singing with someone a a while ago and he said oh
what's your wife do and oh god I just sort've fumbled around for language to sort've say
oh well this is that's y'know and it was just so ridiculous because y'know Mark's just
gonna have absolutely y'know wasn't even gonna blink at it

J: mmhmm

P: like it was just so not like an issue but the language is and I guess that's because erm
I think Malc has struggled with finding language for his sexuality

J: mmm

P: and so that's sort've filtered through

J: oh ok

P: erm to er me having language around our relationship hm that's not really I just wish
we could get married

J: ok

P: because then it's just be like oh because then some erm traditional words would fit

J: mmm

P: or that that anyway this is really wandering off you asked

J: no no it's not at all it's

P: a question I suppose how I'm describ I mean my instincts to describe it when we were
first asked is when Lu was a couple of weeks old and we were still in the States and
some bloke we were walking down the street we were living on and some bloke shouted
across oh where's the mother

J: mmhmm

P: I think I've told you this

J: yeah you did

P: erm and I said erm oh it's j it's just us and that's I think basically how I see it just oh
we're just two dads that's it

J: mmm mmm mmm

P: erm and I have no-one's ever said like who's her mother or ever like pressed on that
point

J: mmm

P: no one's th that's never happened erm I think you never know when people ask you
never know what people go home and say to their friends like oh I met these people and
r r r r and the questions that they know they shouldn't ask

J: what language they use

P: what language they then use

J: yeah yeah

P: er when they're not around us I dunno erm (sighs) the language is just all so clunky

J: yeah

P: for all of it er erm this is really this is not answering your question (laughs)

J: no it no it definitely is it definitely is that's kind've yeah that's kind've what I'm getting at
really but but the fact that you haven't found the language is a perfectly fine answer
(laughs)

P: yeah I I find the language really hard around it

J: yeah yeah

P: erm but I guess because I guess it's because we're different from the norm

J: mmhmm

P: but I don't see us as being any different we're just it's just it just is who we are

J: yep yeah

P: so yeah that i that's it

J: yeah

P: in a nutshell so I guess it's more why do we need the language for this er I c I guess I
almost don't want the language for it

J: yeah

P: because having another term solidifies the fact that we're in some ways different from
the majority norm which we are

J: mmm

P: but I don't really care that we are

J: mmm

P: does that all make sense

J: yeah yeah

P: erm

J: y you d don't you're perhaps you're perhaps seen as different by others but you don't
see yourself as different

P: yeah yeah

J: so what about as as Lucy grows older

P: yeah

J: and there's probably gonna be more of these encounters where both you and she are
perhaps gonna be put in situations

P: mmm

J: where you and or she feel the need to explain themselves

P: mmm

J: what how do you think you're gonna talk to her around the kind've what she says to
others

P: (sighs) erm I don't know I am acutely aware that we need to have those conversations
with her

J: mmm

P: probably w she's just about to turn two so

J: mmm
P: probably about the time she's about 3 because if not 2 and a half

J: yeah

P: because it's gonna you know well actually no the flag the the flag will come at
mothers day next year

J: yeah

P: when she will have considerable language she's now in a room at nursery of two to
three year olds

J: yeah

P: so there will be a lot of language a around that room

J: mmm

P: and yeah er an erm s so yeah er but even then even then though that's I think that's
overthinking it because actually what's going to happen they're going to sit down to
make mother's day cards and the staff'll say oh Lucy you make one for your granny and
then you know if a kid if a kid says oh w where's your mummy they'll just say she'd say
oh I don't have one actually I've two daddies

J: mmhmm

22:19
P: and then kids being kids i I would have faith in

J: (laughs)

P: childish innocence that they'll go oh ok

J: yeah yeah

P: and that be that

J: yeah

P: erm I think kids preconceptions of things like this are entirely just whatever their
parents think

J: mmm

P: so as long as it's only gonna happen where the the the issue will come when a kid
hear it they go home and say it and then their parents say something and then that
brings an attitude back into the environment

J: yeah
P: erm and so it's kind've trying to second guess when that'll happen and when we need
to arm her against that

J: mmm

P: in advance of it happening but not too early because I don't want her to have a thing
about it she doesn't need it I dunno I mean our neighbours they well um lots of them a
six-year-old a six-year-old [inaudible] a while ago now maybe six months ago a six-year-
old was round and said erm the older kid of some friends said erm where's Lucy's
mummy she said you know we've talked about this she doesn't have one is she dead

J: mmm

P: erm so he to his mind was all he could see was if that parent's not there they must've
died

J: mmm

P: so I I'm gonna have to think about this

J: (laughs) y yeah

P: erm er because I think f I spose for some children this is age dependent but for some
children I just have two daddies will be an insufficient answer

J: yeah

P: because well then why

J: yeah

P: I came out of my mummy's tummy where did you come out of

J: yeah

P: erm (sighs) w how old was b er a kid at a birthday party said to us to me and Malc
very sweetly erm she would've been nearly seven said erm are you two married oh no
no we're not oh because I know that when a man and a woman get married they get a
baby so how did you get Lucy

J: (laughs)

P: (laughs) er long pause whilst I think carefully about what a seven year old would know
and I said well some doctors erm helped us and a lady was pregnant for us and then she
gave us the baby and that was Lucy and that's how Lucy came to be and that was fine
and then she went oh ok cool and wandered off

J: yeah

P: so er we need to find w a age appropriate language as

J: yeah
P: I think anyone any parent does with erm the birds and the bees

J: mmm

P: the they need ter find age appropriate language to the child so that they've got
enough information so they don't feel that they're being fobbed off

J: yeah

P: it's just working out what that is (laughs)

J: yeah yeah

P: erm

J: yeah and it's difficult as they as they're learning language and it's not ok at what point I
guess you hope it just comes out organically but

P: mmm I mean we do have there are lots of baby photos around and baby photos of
her in Holt

J: yeah yeah

P: there's a little map of of Blue coast Bay on the wall so that she can point to things and
that can invite the questions

J: yeah

P: (sighs) but that might be slightly overthinking cos she's not gonna look at that and
think that's a map where's that

J: no

P: she's gonna look at it and just see some shapes yeah

J: I guess when she's a bit older maybe

P: mmm

J: be nice for her to visualise it

P: yeah

J: yeah yeah so the the point about children asking you that that was something I
wanted to ask about is that quite recent that a couple of children have sort've said that to
you

P: that was er one of those was over a year ago

J: oh ok
P: and then the Eliza asking about preg er marriage

J: yeah

P: and Olly asking about death (laughs) was about six to eight months ago

J: ok yeah cos I was gonna ask about whether anything had changed in terms of
because you said right at the beginning I think on our first interview which to be fair is
quite a while ago now (laughs) erm so you've had like y'know probably another half of
Lucy's life but erm I remember you saying you know

P: mmm

J: you'd had a really positive response that you'd had very few sort've inappropriate
questions or anything like that and I just wondered whether that'd continued to be the
same or whether you'd had any other encounters that y that you can recall

P: it's all sort've continued much as it was

J: yeah

P: erm yeah just a coup just I think twice two two people have pushed r just far too hard
on who the genetic dad is

J: ok yeah

P: s'like not gonna tell you and I said look we're just keeping that to us and we were like

J: is that recently

P: no it was quite a while ago now

J: oh ok yeah

P: one was er yeah one was when Lu was maybe under a year erm both were at least a
year ago

J: ok and then people have you haven't since

P: just hasn't come up

J: yeah ok

27:27
J: erm yeah was I going to ask you anything else about that erm ah yes I was gonna ask
you kinda sticking around the theme of kind've being LGBT and you were saying kind've
how you find it difficult to find the the language for it

P: mmm
J: I was wondering whether you see any tensions between being gay and being a parent
like do those two things come together easily for you or do you find any tensions with
them

P: hmm no tensions

J: no

P: not really it's not really a I don't really see any link

J: yeah

P: at all

J: yeah I got that impression probably from our first interview but I think I just wanted to
check because it's

P: yeah no for sure

J: something that has come up with others

P: er fer yeah er no for me I er as not yeah but I think I've had a very easy time of being
gay

J: mmm

P: erm coming out was very easy yeah it's just not been a problem

J: yeah did you used to find it difficult before kind've you settled down with Malcolm
before you had Lucy to sort've find the language it was it was it easier then in the past

P: possibly yeah er I think it's because we say I think it's because we say we're partners

J: (laughs)

P: (sighs) that was me making a repulsed face for the tape

J: yeah yeah (laughs)

P: er (laughs) and er and then but that doesn't imply gender

J: yes and it could be misconstrued

P: and that and I think that's that term has been adopted I know my mum referred to her
ex as her partner

J: yes

P: erm er and she is heterosexual and that has so I think that term has really been
adopted

J: yeah
P: as not related to sexuality

J: yeah yeah

P: it's not I don't it's not a euphemism I don't think any more

J: no I don't think it is either yeah

P: erm so yeah I think because we talk about that I can't say my husband although
actually in I have sometimes for people that I don't know very well and I know I'm not
going to get to know I've just said we're married because because it's just so much
easier

J: yeah

P: b sometimes sometimes people just assume you are anyway

J: mmm

P: so that i it just says oh my husband that just ties everything up

J: yep explains your relationship yeah yeah and the gender (laughs)

P: yeah

J: yeah yeah that makes sense ok erm yeah I might ask you more about that later but
shall we have a look at this

P: let's

J: erm so oh yeah I've got a a a sort've a finished one as well so this is a this is about the
second bit of terminology

P: ok

J: erm which is around what I call and how I kind've theorise the networks that people
have erm sort've around oh I've got all my papers here I don't know why I'm looking in
there around themselves basically so this is kind've my example one which is like a not a
fully formed thing but I just it's just an example really so at the minute I'm kind've thinking
about these networks as people's villages erm so people have used terms like
communities erm or networks or social networks or sometimes people talk about like
their tribe or their people so pe different people have used different language erm village
is something that a couple of people have mentioned and I've sort've seen online and it
rings true for me because it's kind've something people build around themselves and it
can have lots of different parts to it but it all kind've revolves around them and helps
them

P: mmm
J: and because of the association with raising children the saying it takes a village to
raise a child because it's just got that association that so at the minute I'm thinking of of
calling like those kind've networks villages

P: yep I like that

J: so and I guess the first question is yeah w w what you think of that and whether that
kind've fits for you

P: I think that's fine yep

J: yeah

P: fits really well yeah

J: I guess because something like community usually implies a group who are
connected and your village might not be you are the connection to everybody rather than
they might not necessarily know each other and things

P: yep

J: erm so that's that's a diagram of g an example of starting to figure out like my village
and erm these circles represent kind've their significance

P: ok

J: so if they're very close to me if I put them very close to me then I see them as very
important to me a really important connection erm and if they're fur the further away they
are then perhaps they're less important I'm not sure I think I perhaps should have started
a bit closer but never mind

P: (laughs)

J: (laughs) my mum's out here but anyway erm you can define what the circles mean

P: for sure for sure

J: it's not pre-defined

P: (laughs)

J: erm so I've got me and then I've got circles for different people

P: ok

J: erm s and then the the lines represent how often I have contact with them so that's
daily that's weekly that's occasional erm and then these ones represent how I have
contact with them

P: mmhmm
J: so whether it's face-to-face whether it's telephone Twitter erm text message
Messenger so on so on erm so then I've got a separate line for each one so it might be
that I only see them occasionally but I WhatsApp with them daily

P: yep

J: so erm and then I think the only other thing is that if they're linked then I've got a line
between them so it doesn't have to just be people erm it can be like I've put here like
Facebook page which is y'know a aaaa might contact a lot of people that way might
have connections with a lot of people that way but the the page is the central thing or it
could even be a website if there's a website which I found like really I looked at daily to
get information about things then I might even put a website on there it doesn't have to
be people who make up a village

P: sure

J: it's kind've resources in a way

P: yep

J: erm and then I've put like erm I'm not actually in a parents' Facebook group to be
honest but lots of people are so I thought I'd put it in erm a a Facebook group which then
people I know and have individual contact with may also be in

P: ok

J: so that's the kind of the the basic the basic idea erm so what I thought we could do
first I've got a bigger version for you

P: cool

J: so that you're not kind've w writing in tiny letters (laughs) ok so I've got a bigger
version for you erm and I thought we could kind've take it step-by-step

P: yeah

J: so if we start with the people

P: yeah sounds good

J: or groups or erm I've even got some stickers

P: oooh

J: oooh I don't know you're the first person I've done this with so we'll see how it goes I
thought it might be easier if you could first move them around erm

P: sure I mean I was thinking I might

J: and decide where to position them

P: I was gonna say I might write a list of all the people to go on it and then place them
J: yes or you can write them on here if you want and then

P: I can write them on there do they stick er are they stickers

J: they're sticky so you can kind've write them on and then stick them ar put them around
and then we can decide where they go

P: that sounds sure

J: does that make sense that's kind've what I thought

P: that sounds good that makes sense

J: and then if you actually think nah you can chuck em away (laughs) so I'm thinking
probably you know not we're not going to fit everybody in

P: for sure

J: it's kind've just those that are important to you

P: yeah

J: can I give you a kind've a criteria for including people

P: yes

J: so if you share or discover important things from or with them erm if you go to them or
it regularly and if you would go there for help

P: ok can you say that one more time

J: so if you share or discover important things so it might be that you're sharing or you're
finding important things from them

P: yep

J: erm if you go to them regularly

P: mmhmm

J: and if you go to them for help

P: ok

J: so I think probably from our discussions most of yours would be people

P: yeah

J: but if there are sort've groups or or other things that aren't people strictly speaking
they can be included but I think I get the impression from you that i i i it's mainly sort've
one-to-one things that
P: yeah

J: aah I've got so many pencils

P: (laughs)

J: pencil good

P: thank you ok

35:45
J: have I got any more of these I’ve got more stickers if you want them

[from this point we are creating the mediagram]

P: so mum er so we

J: so just put one person per thingy [referring to the circular stickers]

P: sure yeah and we WhatsApp er individual slash group [inaudible mumbling whilst
creating the mediagram]

J: don’t worry if you can’t fit them on there cos once you stick it on we can write it around
so don't worry if it doesn't all fit

P: for sure ok er just thinking about lines to it as well this is fun

J: (laughs) that’s what I was hoping

P: (laughs) erm mum has now moved

J: oh has

P: yeah

J: she that’s a question I’ll come to w w we don’t have to put everything on but then you
can explain things and I can fill in the details afterwards

P: sure

J: but one thing I was gonna ask is where they’re based

P: yeah she’s really excited

J: that is really exciting

P: erm ah ha Andrea when people are in when I communicate with them both in groups
and individually so do you want that on one sticker

J: yeah (sighs) so so for example with for me these two for example I tend to see these
two together
P: ok

J: erm and we have a WhatsApp group together but then like with you and your friends I
might also Whats WhatsApp them individually so I've I’ve put them individually and then
I’ve put them next to each other so that I can then draw a circle round them

P: yeah ok

J: erm so I think if you do have a lot of contact with them individually for now

P: (laughs)

J: I know that’s why I thought this first cos then we can shift them

P: (laughs) yeah definitely

J: cos then if people are connected then we need to put them close to each other so we
can circle them or draw connections between them

P: dad

J: so that just means they know each other

P: sure

J: whereas the circle means I actually we are in a group together

P: socially or [inaudible]

J: so er we actually see each other together we actually chat together as a three

P: they would see you without you there

J: they would

P: would they they would see each other without you there

J: yes they would yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so I guess your two friends would be like
that as well your Amanda and erm your neighbour

P: Amanda and Jo yeah absolutely

J: yeah so like you see them individually but then they then they know each other but
you are very you are a group as well

P: erm I feel like I’m gonna forget people (laughs)

J: (laughs) well you can add people later

P: erm Alex
J: and you’re unlikely to forget someone who actually was really really important aren’t
you

P: I dunno (laughs)

J: (laughs)

P: erm yeah ah Malc (laughs)

J: (laughs) well there you go

P: (laughs) that’s funny

J: you don’t have to put Lucy she’s in there with you

P: yeah oh sh that's you read my mind I was just thinking I was like mmm yeah

J: yeah

P: there’s no need for that [inaudible – mumbling about looking for contacts on his
phone]

J: yeah I’ve done that before as well looked on my phone like who do I know again

P: yeah who who's in my life er

J: yeah but it may be that some more who are more peripheral we don’t put on anyway

P: for sure yeah how comprehensive do you want this to be

J: I don’t go right out just those who are important to you you know like I think yeah
thinking back to the criteria do you go to them regularly

P: mmm

J: are you sharing important things with them are they sharing important things with you
if you’re in trouble who would you go to

P: mmm yeah it’s quite useful to go how far back (laughs)

J: (laughs) yeah it’s like if you’ve not spoken to somebody for like ages and ages then
probably

P: yeah probably not

J: I would’ve I would expect to probably have about 10 how many have you got now
you’ve got 11

P: that one is a group in fairness

J: yeah yeah yeah and you haven’t put people individuals you mainly see them in a
group yeah that’s fine
P: I certainly think of them as a group

J: yeah yeah

P: yeah I think that probably is everyone yeah I’m just going [inaudible whisper] (laughs)
fine ok

J: [inaudible]

P: [inaudible] Facebook North Yorkshire for Europe

J: yeah and that’s that’s all the I think that's all the people whose WhatsApp things you
shared and that you chose them on the basis that they were the kind of people you

P: yeah

J: had the most contact with as well

P: mmhmm ok

J: so we don’t need those

P: don’t need those

J: yeah so before we stick em down we might want to think about so you can define how
close this is

P: yep

J: so that so that you can use the space basically

P: yeah

J: so you don’t wanna end up putting everyone there

P: no so because I (laughs) I’m gonna u I’m gonna put them on the three lines

J: yeah

P: because (laughs) have you ever done your Myers-Briggs

J: yeah

P: cos I am a mega mega J

J: ok

P: this is nice and binary and

J: yeah yeah although there's the line’s quite faded here so you’re gonna struggle it
sort've ends
P: yeah [inaudible] that one I’m gonna I’m gonna put NCT out there yeah I am that’s
realistic because that’s more just become obligation

J: yeah

P: it’s one of those (sighs) it’s because I’m in the a the y’know how it’s socially awkward
to leave a WhatsApp group

J: yeah it really is cos it says so-and-so has left the group yeah I know do

P: I do ooo [cringe noise] I I’m pretty sure so basically when

J: they need to invent a way that you can leave without it being an announced

P: c'mon leave subtly

J: yeah

P: when I whenev when all our kids became roughly a year and everyone went back to
work

J: yeah

P: my work days didn’t coincide with all

J: yeah

P: of theirs so I st I basically didn’t see them for like 6-8 months and and like I really
sort’ve when I have now seen them more recently I've really felt like they have gotten a
lot closer and moved on and I don’t I don’t know them as well

J: yeah yeah

P: and I am so ok with that I like I really don’t like any of their husbands

J: oh ok

P: and they're all like they’re all lovely

J: yeah

P: but y’know I have nothing in common with them so erm anyway I’m almost certain
they’ve created another WhatsApp group

J: oh really

P: because a plan was made

J: (gasps)
P: and then Carmen invited me to Carmen said to me are you doing anything in the day
d’you wanna come to this place at this time this is er I’m really sorry I just can’t I’ve got w
first day back at work tomorrow I need to do some work and then I saw a load of photos
on Facebook and it was the NCT group

J: mmm

43:10
P: that had gone

J: mmm mmm

P: so that’s really weird

J: yeah

P: so they've made that plan somewhere else

J: yeah

P: so I don’t have a problem with it

J: yeah yeah yeah

P: y’know I don’t care but I I guess I feel slightly bad because I think maybe they think
that I don’t like them it’s not that

J: yeah

P: it’s just that I’m just I have other people in my life

J: it’s just that they’re at the edge (laughs)

P: erm yeah and that kind’ve does it

J: yeah so I guess the next thing to think about is who knows who and whether they’re in
groups together so that we can represent the connections between people

P: s yeah so

J: and if you spread em out more you’ll have some space to do the lines

P: yeah for sure I was slightly doing that thinking of who knows who

J: yeah yeah

P: so erm no none of these people know my NCT group

J: ok

P: erm Malc knows my university friends

J: mmhmm

P: my university friends know each other my neighbours [inaudible]

J: oh who are your university friends Alex

P: these three erm Alex Al and Andrea

J: ok yeah yeah yeah

P: Malc does also in fact Malc knows everyone

J: he probably knows everybody

P: can that be

J: it might I mean it might be worth just moving him right here [moves to the very inner
circle – next to CGS; throughout this exchange we are moving Malcolm’s ‘circle’ around]

P: yeah we are quite close (laughs)

J: yeah cos I think

P: yeah cos

J: I think that can p’rhaps be be just I think (sighs) it’s up to you actually

P: no that does make sense

J: if you think it makes sense to just put him in there with you and you know not do him
as a separately oh I see him face-to-face daily because you live together and I realise
that (laughs) erm so he could just go in there with you it depends how you how you feel
about it

P: it’s interesting (sighs) and this is this is now oh this now feels like marriage
counselling (laughs)

J: (laughs)

P: I er we it’s like er y’know we’re absolutely like the one and e erm best friends

J: mmhmm

P: and all and all the good things and everything’s fine so don’t

J: (laughs)

P: this isn’t going down that route erm but er (laughs) erm I because he’s at work
J: mmm

P: and has immense pressures I I don’t

J: mmm

P: there are some things that I don’t lean on him for

J: no I think that’s normal (laughs)

P: yeah I think that’s normal yeah yeah erm

J: that you don’t get everything from one person do you

P: no that’s it

J: so then it might make sense to put him outside a bit but we could just make a note
that he knows everybody not (laughs) not a line to everybody because then you know
being honest about how you know you can be honest then do you y’know is he is he do
you go to him as much as you would go to some of these people p’rhaps p’rhaps the
answer's not so he might be further away than you think

P: no I think the answer is that I think he is I think he is the cl the person I am closest to

J: mmhmm

P: yeah yeah

J: ok and are they all

P: anyway it’s erm so then my brother mum and dad

J: oh ok obviously they all know each other (laughs)

P: Julian is a friend from school

J: yep

P: who does also know my parents and my brother

J: ok

P: but actually I might move him there because he more knows Christopher and Malc
actually

J: yep

P: er so yeah

J: and then so would it be easiest to

P: and I have put my dad a step away partly because I don’t see him as often
J: yeah

P: er but I’m just not as close to him as I am ter ter the other to the people closer

J: so he’s on the same level as like Jo and Amanda those people

P: yeah I think that’s fair yeah

J: so would it be easier to draw the line between that’s Andrea isn’t it

P: that’s Andrea so like that

J: yep they’re like a three aren’t they

P: that’s a three that’s a two

J: yep

P: erm that’s a three in fact I could do that

J: mmhmm

P: so then I can put some lines down the middle that’s a three they’re not as close Julian
is from school

J: yep

P: I think that feels does that comply with your terms (laughs)

J: I think it does yeah (laughs) yep so what what are how would you describe these
levels of closeness

P: so Malc’s my other half

J: yeah

P: yeah er these are the people that I would go to

J: so that’s the first layer of the circle

P: the first for (sighs) erm with the most personal problems

J: mmhmm

P: the most personal support

J: mmhmm

P: erm and just an anything and everything

J: ok

P: and then we I suppose then the next ring out I would go to (sighs) er (groans) for
making more like discussion so I might go to Jo and Amanda to talk about parenting stuff

J: mmhmm

P: or erm and Al and Alex talk to about and well certainly Julian about work cos he’s in
the same industry about work stuff but also family relationships I don’t speak to them as
often

J: yep

P: actually that’s I think that’s probably the defining factor I speak to Andrea almost
every day

J: mmhmm

P: and my mum I probably don’t speak to Christopher that often but we are the same
level of he is that close

J: yeah

P: despite not speaking to him as often

J: yeah

P: erm yeah

J: yeah

P: so yeah [inaudible]

J: yeah yeah that makes sense so this is fading contact (laughs) but they’re still on there
interestingly because I bet you st I bet you have a lot of people did you put them there
because you because we talked about them before or cos you must have lots of people
at this level

P: I think yes erm clearly yeah I think I probably did put them there because we talked
about them before

J: yeah yeah and cos it’s to do with parenting

49:10
P: how yeah but actually I think I would still talk to them about things like potty training

J: mmm mmm

P: y'know or like just the the because w our kids are roughly at the same stage and
actually y’know not all of my friends have kids

J: mmm
P: like only Jo and Amanda have kids

J: yeah

P: and I don't wanna bore everyone

J: yeah and I guess they have been more important to you in the past as well haven’t
they

P: yeah also I’m increasingly now don’t like talking to mum about parenting things cos
she’s really irritating the way she responds

J: ok

P: (laughs) so we've just gotten our dummy

J: yeah

P: which is great erm and she had the being like talking to her mentioned it in passing
like oh we must do that at some point soon and she go and her response is like the best
the best time to do it is at Christmas to give it to give it to father Christmas well let's just
break that down

J: (laughs)

P: the best way it's blatantly not two she’s gonna be just over two she’s not gonna know
who some creepy white man is with a big beard like go away just shut up erm

J: yeah

P: creepy man with a white beard

J: I guess you’re likely to get a much bigger range of responses as well views from a
group aren’t you

P: yeah

J: (laughs)

P: er yeah

J: ooh (laughs)

P: there we go (laughs)

J: shall we stick em on then

P: yeah
J: I reckon we can go

P: erm

J: do you think it helps to do them on stickers

P: yeah I do yeah

J: cos er initially I was gonna draw it like this and then I was struggling with getting the
circle size right and I thought (laughs)

P: no it’s a really nice way to do it you can just you can just play with it

J: mmm

P: and discussion means that things move around

J: mmm good old Amazon next day delivery w one inch stickers (laughs)

P: [inaudible] it’s a bit sad how excited we are about our new heating system but it is
pretty cool

J: yeah

P: it’s all renewable it's a renewable system

[some talk about the heating system]

P: I’m starting to give in to the idea that I might be willing to enjoy craft

J: (laughs)

P: begrudgingly

J: (laughs) ahh

P: [inaudible]

J: Julian was out there yeah yeah yeah he was what sort of craft

P: erm just toddler craft painting and

J: ok yeah yeah

P: making things out of toilet tubes and that sort of thing

J: you quite like it

P: I aggressively hate it

J: oh do you ok
P: but I’m starting to come around to the idea that I might be willing

J: oh ok you might be willing ok I think it’s good to have a parent who’s in to it because
there’s quite a lot of it demanded and when they go y'know to nursery and when they go
to school as well it's kind've they think it’s fun homework to be like go home and make
this thing so it is good to have someone who enjoys it for sure I I’m not a craft lover
either but

P: I had there is a book on Amazon that I now intend to buy it’s such a like well marketed
title and it’s

J: oh really

P: erm the book of craft for the parent who think they don’t like craft or something like
that

J: ok there you go

P: that is me

J: yeah that’s you

P: once again Amazon knows me (laughs)

J: there's clearly a lot of us the if they've written a book for that

P: yeah exactly erm cool

J: nice yeah that’s looking good so probably the most logical thing to do next is well first
how you how you stay in touch with them because then the lines might be different
depending on

P: sure so (sighs) yeah cos that's just not the same [inaudible]

J: so the yeah the the phone without the circle is the telephone and the phone with the
circle is WhatsApp [inaudible] (laughs)

P: I phone dad because he's [inaudible] incompetent

J: (laughs)

P: he said to me it’s like oh we’re we’re big electric car enthusiasts and dad was just like
ah I just can’t do it there aren't enough charge points

J: (laughs)

P: and there's like I just thought I was like ok dad there are but you can’t even use
WhatsApp so (laughs) the idea of you navigating this is not going to happen
J: yeah

P: [inaudible muttering about his diagram drawing] I do phone Alex and face-to-face my
ftf is getting increasingly weird but there’s nothing else

J: yeah that’s all right no there’s nothing else that looks like it I generally tried to avoid I
tried to keep the symbols simple but sometimes

P: and we WhatsApp

J: I think drawing a little face seemed a bit more difficult (laughs) than just writing ftf

P: we phhhhone we WhatsApp we email cos we’re tragic (laughs)

J: (laughs) who’s that oh Malc aww

P: Malc (laughs) it's just for organising stuff

J: yeah is that I was gonna say is that more organisational than

P: yeah er we WhatsApp for some reason Julian messenges me and it always annoys
me

J: Facebook messenger yeah

P: he only very few people in my life use it so I forget to look at it when they message
me on it

J: oh ok

P: oh I have done that stupidly I’m gonna have to bend the lines

J: it’s fine no it’s fine

P: oh well too late

J: I I’m going to have to I’m going to have to re-do these digitally anyway because I’m
going to have to anonymise it all so I’m not d this is just a

P: oh ok ok

J: working document (laughs)

55:53
J: as long as I can tell what it’s meant to be then it’s fine

P: WhatsApp er yeah [mumbling about diagram] the occasional SMS (laughs)

J: (laughs)

P: erm NCT's just WhatsApp that’s a nice simple one that is just a group erm Jo is
J: oh yeah there are some that are WhatsApp that’s individual

P: yeah sorry I’ve not specified so I was gonna ask you if if I’ve got both I should’ve just
put i slash g

J: if you could just put i g that's what's on there

P: [inaudible mumbling] I’ve done that for mum dad isn’t there Malc is just individual
(laughs)

J: (laughs)

P: erm Julian is just individual and that’s also just individual that’s quite difficult to fit in
but I think you'll know what that means

J: yeah

P: that is I slash G that is I slash G Al is it's my awful handwriting [inaudible] that would
help

J: I think I’ll know

P: I do actually occasionally see Julian face to face

J: yeah I guess if it’s so ridiculously occasional then you don’t you don’t have to put it on

P: this is so how I work just like la la la

J: (laughs)

P: no actual system and

J: I thought you were working through the types so you were putting like face to face
[inaudible]

P: I was and then it got random (laughs)

J: ok (laughs)

P: (laughs) just get distracted erm er I slash G cos they’re the same these are ah I can’t
believe Lucy is sleeping through that racket WhatsApp so er ok oh and I just sometimes
I just [inaudible]

J: [inaudible] (laughs) there’s gonna be a lot of lines aren’t there (laughs)

P: I think so yeah er ok so if we do frequency for er erm mm mm mm I hardly ever see

her [whispered] see her like once a year would you call once a year face to face would
you call that occasional

J: you can shall we shall we say if it if it’s once a year we don’t put it on
P: sure

J: we’ll make that the the cut off

P: that’s useful er in fact can I have a rubber please

J: yeah yeah I’ve got all the stationery see how this one test it yeah it’s alright not leaving
a horrible mark

P: (laughs)

J: you see him less yeah more like once a year

P: yeah once a year ish erm that’s pretty much it I think so shall we do some linking

J: yeah yeah [inaudible]

P: ooh I dunno about these

J: Jo and Amanda yeah

P: Amanda and these two and these two (sighs) mmm good old divorce how does that
er

J: yeah are you still gonna link them (laughs)

P: eeeeee kind'veeeehow do I do that

J: well you could link them but not put them in a group together so you don’t they’re
linked so they know each other but you don’t put them in a group because you don’t see
them together

P: well I actually do

J: oh you do

P: I see them at Christmas

J: are they actually

P: oh they’re very very amicable

J: oh ok then definitely you have to link them then (laughs)

P: but they would never see each other independent they’d never ring each other and be
like sh'we go for a drink

J: no no yeah

P: I mean they now live 200 miles apart but like (laughs)
J: no

P: when they lived 3 miles apart

J: yeah

P: they wouldn't socialised together so erm so then I mean Julian knows my brother but
he wouldn’t he wouldn't see him independently of me

J: does he only know him through you

P: yes

J: hmm

P: he only knows him because he’s my brother

J: hmmm

P: I don’t think they’re linked

J: we’ll leave it for now cos I’ve got I you’ve explained it so I can always I can think about
it and add it later

P: that’s fine erm so and it’s on that Malc knows everyone

J: yes yep we’re we're assuming that yep

P: that's assumed erm so I think that’s kind’ve it really

J: ok yep

P: so I think those lines actually do away with circles

J: yeah they do in a way don’t they yeah

P: it’s fine

J: and I and I know that you’re in a that you see them three together Alex and

P: Al and Andrea

J: Al and Andrea you’re in a group with them two together

P: yeah and erm and I’m in some groups with all three of them but I see them all
independently as well

J: yes yep yeah and the same with Jo and Amanda that you’re in a group with them
together you also and you see them together but you also see them individually

P: yep
J: and and message them individually ok

P: ok so now frequencies

J: yeah that’s that bit’s gonna be the

P: so

J: (laughs)

P: I mean Malc is implied

J: yes ok so all very regularly

P: yeah I think I’ll do that so erm I think I’m gonna do it for we probably speak by one of
those methods weekly but we occasionally see each other face to face [speaking about
his brother Christopher]

J: ok

P: is that clear

J: yeah and you’ve explained it so if it’s not then we’ve got the tape

P: erm

J: oh this oh it’s Christopher

P: my brother yeah

J: that you you by either phone or WhatsApp you speak

P: yep yeah

J: is that weekly yes

P: yep and mum we see each other at least weekly

J: and this is new right

P: which is new

J: since she’s moved closer

P: she moved about six weeks ago

J: ok

P: and then we individually WhatsApp daily

J: mmhmm
P: we probably ah why am I spreading this out this is really oh I wrote face to face twice

J: (laughs)

P: I’m glad you said this is a working document

J: yeah yeah

P: erm yeah I think that’s probably it sufficient is that alright actually or do you want to
know specifically how frequently I use each contact method

J: so do you mean

P: cos so with mum I would erm I daily WhatsApp her individually

J: yeah

P: I probably weekly WhatsApp her in a group with Christopher and I speak to her at
least weekly on the phone do you want that detail

J: I think if they’re different then then put them yeah I think if they’re different then put
them but if it’s the same for all of them then it can be one

P: [inaudible mumbling whilst completing the diagram]

J: so it’d be useful to know like if you’re WhatsApping them more than you are
telephoning them or the other way round

P: and that’s an occasional line to group

J: ok

P: so er that’s weekly that’s phone isn’t it

J: yep

P: that’s just phone the phone is the face to face is weekly phone’s weekly WhatsApp is
individual daily but group is er that’s occasionally in group

J: ah ok so who are you in a group with with your mum

P: just mum and Christopher but we've kind've stopped we haven’t been using it very
much recently

J: ah ok ok and is that so for Christopher is that the only group WhatsApp you’re in just
him and your mum

P: yes yeah

J: ok goddit

P: shall I just write that as a note I can’t remember if we talked about that before
J: what that you’re

P: yeah

J: it’s ok because you’ve said it

P: ok cool fam

J: fam ok (laughs)

1:04:50
P: erm so dad (sighs)

J: that one's gonna be difficult isn’t it

P: gonna go around

J: because he’s all the way round yeah yeah yeah that's fine

P: so face to face d d d d d d is occasional (sighs) and then by one of those means I’m in
touch with him weekly

J: yeah is there one that you use more than the others

P: no

J: no d’you wanna just put a line to all three then so that you can see that it’s there yeah
there we go

P: I prefer that like this one round the edge of the sticker [he is drawing a line around the
circular sticker]

J: (laughs)

P: erm Julian

J: see this is the kind’ve attitude that doesn’t work with children and craft they’re like
blaaargh (laughs)

P: (laughs) it’s not that I can deal with the like bleurgh on the page

J: yeah

P: it’s the like peripheral bleurgh I can’t deal with

J: ok yeah (laughs)

P: (laughs) erm (clicks with tongue)

J: and this is Julian I think he’s the only one that you haven’t mentioned to me before
P: ok he’s a friend from school

J: yeah

P: and erm I we’re working together now have been for the last (clicks with tongue) er 18
months or so

J: ok

P: doing some artist management work for me

J: ok

P: basically an administrator

J: mmhmm

P: yeah it’s it’s slightly frustrating he wanted my help because he had too much work to
basically to run his own career

J: mmhmm

P: and he wanted me to just put his name out for lots of choral societies which are all run
up and down the country by amateur by by erm committees of volunteers from choirs
erm but it’s just been really difficult they j they just never reply

J: mmm

P: erm so er I literally in 18 months haven’t actually gotten him a single gig

J: ah

P: and I have sent out so so many emails ter so many people ter ter promote him and
then just don’t you don’t get anything back

J: so he’s a colleague and a friend

P: primarily yeah I mean friend but

J: yeah

P: we’ve ended up working together

J: ok and you know him since school

P: yeah

J: whereas these three are from university right

P: yeah correct so see ah we do those three daily and that one occasional we’ve had a
lot of weddings this summer so groups have
J: oh yeah did they happen

P: yeah they did

J: did they all go well

P: they were all good so I see Alex occasionally I see Al occasionally erm can I just
splinter off another occasionally line

J: yeah yeah oh this is very nice this is very professional

P: (laughs)

J: I’ll have to use yours as an example oh no I can’t cos it’s anonymised I’ll have to
anonymise it then use yours as an example

P: (laughs) oh I've done myself [inaudible] cos I can’t get round without no that doesn’t I
I’m gonna have to draw another full line

J: you could always change where you’ve put these

P: I could that’s the obvious that’s the solution here

J: yeah (laughs) you could put them cos you could write them on the paper if you want it
doesn’t have to be in the circle

P: oh it does

J: yeah [inaudible] so I can see that

P: are you erm d’you watch the circle on channel four

J: no

P: oh it’s so good (laughs)

J: I saw the film called the circle

1:09:03
P: this is not related

J: with Emma Watson

P: no this is a reality TV show

J: oh ok

P: and it’s so we saw the ads for it last i it was on last year first as a new thing and o
we’d seen the ads for that and that looks awful and I came in from work and it was the
first night and Malc he was like a giddy child he’s like this is
J: (laughs)

P: the best thing

J: oh really

P: so it it’s like big brother

J: ok

P: but everyone lives in their own flat

J: ok ok

P: in a block of flats which they have and they only communicate for five six weeks
through erm a TV screen based messenger platform

J: ah oh I have heard of this I’ve heard of it yeah

P: and they can lie about who they are

J: yeah that is really [inaudible]

P: it’s so oh it was so fascinating and the guy that won erm pretended to be his girlfriend

J: oh right

P: and people were just livid cos he pretended to be this girl and he was a guy

J: isn’t that the whole point that everybody knew that you could lie

P: yeah

J: so why were they angry (laughs)

P: well because he well exactly he just played the game and yeah oh it was he he then
won their vote and the public vote

J: wow

P: really interesting

J: do the public not know who they are either

P: no the public oh the public can see it all

J: oh

P: so they voted for him as

J: [inaudible]
P: it was just really interesting erm so what was I saying so what they say so yeah I do
speak to Alex occasionally by phone oh my god I'm actually having a meltdown

J: (laughs)

P: this is maybe this is why I never got much work done at school cos I was too busy

J: perfecting it yeah [inaudible] circles yeah

P: [inaudible] so we occasionally call and we occasionally WhatsApp group (clicks with

tongue) and then we probably weekly WhatsApp individually that's about right a d I did a
thing last time and now I want to do the same

J: (laughs)

P: [drawing around the circular sticker] [inaudible] then erm so Jo (sighs) erm actually I
mean ok sorry how would I classify someone who I see twice a week

J: ooh

P: (laughs) weekly

J: d'you know I haven’t got anything for that have I p’rhaps p’rhaps p'rhaps just do like
the daily going into the with a oh we can make a new thing why don’t you do a a zig zag
for the for twice a week specifically

P: (laughs)

J: or something in between

P: yeah erm (clicks with tongue)

J: we can yeah that is why I left some space so if we d if we haven’t covered something
in my key we could cover it

P: I'm not very good at zig zags

J: oh it’s fine it doesn’t look like anything else so (laughs)

P: no exactly erm (laughs) erm erm so Amanda now Amanda’s gone back to work

J: ah

P: which is so great for her so pleased she’s gone back to where she used to work erm
she’s had a I think since I last saw you she’s separated and then got back together with
her ex

J: ooh

P: yeah
J: ooh

P: yeah it’s really it’s been really difficult to watch from the sidelines

J: yeah

P: because y’know (sighs) maybe four weeks later she’s go she’s sort’ve like just like I
just don’t know when it’s gonna end and it’s just like well of course it’s all still awful it only
happened a month ago

J: yeah

P: like her perspective on time and I think this is partly because she didn’t have a job

J: mmm

P: at the time erm she just everything was so sudden and she was just behaving as if it
had been going on for years

J: ok

P: and not giving any time for dust to settle not giving any time to establish any kind of
new normality

J: mmm

P: before erm it was all like during the I think they were separated for about er eight
months and in that time they slept together three times

J: mmm

P: they a yeah just it’s been weird to watch

J: yeah

P: erm anyway so we now see each other weekly

J: ok

P: erm we WhatsApp individually weekly but occasionally group text

J: and is that less than before

P: it is a bit the because work’s

J: I got the impression you were sort’ve Whats I know you were seeing each other face t
but even WhatsApp I thought it was almost daily [inaudible] some of the messages

P: it was yeah I think things changed now that she’s gone back to work

J: yeah
P: the boys are older erm and

J: and if she’s back with her partner as well

P: I think mum moving up has changed

J: mmm

P: the way I’m spending my time I spend quite a lot more seeing her quite a lot and
which is really nice erm and so that’s cha that’s changed the amount that I

J: yeah yeah

P: also Jo's boys have gone to school so she’s in a slightly different place

J: yeah

P: yeah things change (laughs)

J: yeah

P: erm we weekly WhatsApp occasionally group is that ok

J: yes yes [inaudible]

P: and NCT

J: probably gonna be occasional I guess

P: er face to face definitely (clicks with tongue) it's hard I said to Carmen like I s I said to
the group oh I I’m gonna start Lucy at a baby ballet class

J: (laughs)

P: erm because we were doing music on this on this Monday and I wanted to find
something more physical

J: yeah

P: so we went and did that erm which is down towards Brassage

J: mmhmm

P: erm in like on the edge of Brassage and erm yeah so a couple of them said two of
them said yeah we’d love to do that that sounds really great then it hasn’t followed
through to anything

J: ok

P: so [inaudible] I dunno
J: it’s a fizzling relationship

P: fizzling yeah completely and then probably weekly WhatsApp cool

J: yeah so I very much get the impression that this although some people might be quite
static

P: mmhmm

J: like I bet your uni friends have not changed very much in how but but some of these
people

P: yeah that’s true

J: if we if I’d done one every time I interviewed you they would’ve moved

P: yeah the newer friendships

J: yeah the newer friendships are shifting yeah

1:15:59
P: yep that’s definitely true
J: yeah yeah that’s interesting
P: yeah
J: ok so some have we done them all
P: so we just need to do direction
J: oh yes yes so it’s whether whether you are giving more to them or they are giving
more to you or it’s equal so it could it doesn’t have to be just support it could be just
information
P: mmm so that line is both ways
J: yeah
P: I think they're mostly both ways really
J: yea
P: erm
J: and it may be different for different media as well potentially
P: yes for sure
J: (laughs) you’d be amazed how many times there’s been workmen round
P: really
J: when I’ve been doing interviews in people’s houses it’s kind of the day you know
you’re at home you’re like yeah come on that day and (laughs) everybody arrives
[workmen calling in the background] (laughs) could be worse probably be worse if you
weren’t here
[some talk about the builders]
P: erm yeah that’s both (sighs) these are all both directional
J: they all are ok
P: to be honest
J: it's all er there’s no-one who you’ve been giving more or they’ve been giving more
P: no
J: no
P: well it no yeah
J: all right
P: can I just I’m just gonna put that as a footnote
J: all right (laughs) you really wanted to put a footnote didn’t you (laughs)
P: I yeah (laughs) I’ve got a friend a friend a uni friend texted a group saying erm the
person says I just put a footnote in word and I’ve rediscovered my shortcut he’s yes an
IT geek and he well he actually works in IT and he’s very into his shortcuts
J: mmhmm I’m not very good at shortcuts but I do get the excitement when you discover
one
P: (laughs)
J: you’d been going the long way round for ages and it’s suddenly (gasps)
P: completely erm so I think
J: yep it’s fine it’s fine I don’t need to put them all on individually if they’re all the same
P: daily [muttering about diagram]
J: (laughs) just to be clear
P: just to be clear [inaudible] I just wanna be clear
J: yeah (laughs)
P: cool
J: ok awesome it looks ver it looks very pretty I have to say (laughs)
P: you have to say that that was fun wasn’t it (laughs)
J: yeah ok so a bit more on this but we don’t have to draw any more
P: yep
J: erm I just wanted to check some things about people and the kind’ve relationships you
have with them so I think I know who these all are
P: yep
J: you’ve already you’ve just explained Julian to me but let me just check so
P: I’m surprised sorry d'you know I’m surprised I hadn’t mentioned him because I was
his best man last year in Newtown I had to go to Newtown for a wedding
J: maybe you just didn’t say his name
P: may maybe erm yeah and it was just it was a really weird wedding so it was his his
wife’s Newtownian and erm
J: oh maybe you did
P: they met here she was here on a Visa for being an au pair stopped that work and then
the only way she could stay would be for them to get married
J: ok
P: and they were going to get married eventually anyway so they just said let’s do this
J: mmm

P: and so they did erm because it was all this way and it was like two months notice so I
was I and his parents were the only people from his side so it was a wedding of like th
well three for the groom
J: aw
P: and fifty for the bride
J: in Newtown
P: in Newtown
J: oh ok that's kind of fair enough
P: and s'pretty unusual yeah anyway yeah erm
J: yeah ok maybe you did mention but you didn’t say his name I tend to remember
names because I’ve had to do pseudonyms for everybody so I
P: sure
J: y'know it kinda sticks
P: well don't read anything into if I haven’t mentioned him t before that’s not to read
anything in to it
J: ok
P: that’s just er yeah
J: noted
P: we’re all good yeah
J: ok so can I check so Alex Al and Andrea are all friends that you know from uni
P: correct
J: erm Jo is your immediate neighbour or just a close
P: immediate neighbour
J: immediate neighbour erm a friend and Amanda is someone you met at a er a group
P: baby group
J: baby group and a friend and in fact and Jo goes to the same group
P: yeah
J: yeah ok right so NCT you had a friend who was in that group Carmen
P: yeah Carmen
J: who introduced you to them
P: yeah
J: ok
P: [inaudible]

J: erm we know who Malcolm is

P: yeah
J: erm Christopher is your brother that’s your mum that’s your dad yeah ok so I’m clear
on who they all are the next question is where they all live so if you just go you don’t
have to write it on if you want to you can but I don’t wanna spoil your lines cos [inaudible]
C: no I just noticed an error I I accidentally drew that to the wrong circle
J: I was wondering if you’d notice that
P: well I hadn't and in fairness I thought like well oh that’s that's not meant to mean
anything even though it possibly sub-consciously did
J: yeah yeah yeah (laughs)

1:21:29
P: shall I make a rough note of where they all live is that helpful

J: it’s it’s it’s either you say it or you put it on

P: ok

J: I just thought we might not fit fit it on on the diagram

P: erm er locally er within (breathes out) fifteen miles

J: yeah [inaudible]

P: Newgate Duffield with me er

J: and where did your mum live before

P: Dorwich

J: Dorwich ok can you put like Dorwich and an arrow to Duffield cos I do know that she
moved but I wasn’t sure where she was before

P: that's fine erm [inaudible muttering about the diagram]

J: (laughs)

P: Arnfield Millburn Newgate

J: so those friends have kind've dispersed [inaudible]

P: yeah they actually all moved to Newgate and then they’ve moved moved back

J: ok erm and so then the final one is kind’ve what kind’ve relationship you have with
them what kind of support you've got from each other I’ve got some categories that I
wrote down

P: brilliant

J: based on what you've told me so far and kind’ve the interaction so the things I’ve got
so far are practical support emotional support fun erm political engagement probably
doesn’t apply to you information probably does

P: [inaudible] political erm political does I mean my brother and I

J: [inaudible] I just thought probably not

P: discuss politics but I don’t think that's quite what you’re getting at [inaudible]

J: erm I guess I'm er it's probably more applies to people who are on social media on
Twitter sort’ve kicking up a storm about things being sort’ve y’know either politics y'know
with a big p or just kind’ve small politics and more we think these kind of families should
be recognised that’s what I mean by political engagement and I don’t think it applies to
you

P: no

J: and then probably networking doesn’t apply to you so probably the main ones but tell
me if you want me to add any

P: sure

J: so practical support emotional support you don’t have to write these on by the way we
can just talk through them

P: fun
J: fun I think is definitely one (laughs) having looked at your WhatsApp

P: yeah

J: and then information are there any others any other kind’ve characteristics of what
you get out of your relationships with them

P: erm no I think that’s I think that's probably everything

J: well we can add some if we think of some later

P: what’s the difference between practical support and info information

J: I guess with practical support I’m probably thinking of things like helping you with
childminding or you know like when you’ve you know you’ve swapped car seats with
your neighbour

P: ok

J: whereas information is like I need to know what time this thing’s on or er I need to find
out

P: ok

J: so practical might be can oh I borrow your car seat whereas getting information might
be what’s the best car seat for this age group

P: yeah

J: so that does that make sense

P: yep

J: so if we get if we go through each one so practical support and you tell me who you
get that from that might be quicker than going through the people

P: er yeah c can I actually can I do it person by person actually do you mind if I do it the
other way around

J: yeah yeah if that’s better for you no go for it

P: so I’d say Julian so emotional support and professional support

J: ah ok so that’s an extra one professional support

P: which is yeah not networking

J: ok

P: but

J: what’s the difference between

P: because I wouldn’t erm it’s w we discuss problems at work that we’re because we
both work doing similar stuff erm I would ring Julian to say like I’ve got this problem at
work how er with l've got this issue that I need to sort how you know what would you do
how would you rehearse this erm

J: ok yeah yeah that makes sense

P: erm or where would you find this kind’ve resource that sort’ve stuff

J: mmhmm

P: so that’s Jul I mean I so that’s Julian erm daaaad errrr emotional support erm yeah J
Christopher emotional support and fun

J: mmhmm

P: mum practical support emotional support

J: (laughs)

P: and then she sends me things that I think she thinks that I will think are fun

J: (laughs) yeah

P: (laughs) like a picture of a toddler with cake on their face

J: yeah

P: like I don't care about this mum er (laughs)

J: it sounds like she also sends you information which you p’rhaps

P: yeah she's (laughs)

J: rejects also

P: yeah that’s also fair erm

J: (laughs) so this is an example of the one way (laughs)

P: yes I erm a er yeah those are really specific examples generally she [inaudible]

J: yeah er I’m not saying we should change the arrows

P: (laughs) erm so yeah so mum I’d say practical emotional fun and informational yeah
yeah yeah erm NC

J: but less so with the fun and information

P: but less so yeah yeah

1:27:05
P: erm NCT would be (sighs) yeah this is where the yeah so that would be I think initially
that was emotional support but as I’ve as we’ve sort've drifted that is not so much now

J: mmm

P: erm in both directions

J: yeah

P: although occasionally still that does still happen erm this is all too grey to be a line

J: it’s all too

P: it's all too with this with this group I felt there’s there's a lot of variants like that’s

J: yeah

P: so I’m aware that I’ve written that and now I’m saying something else

J: no no

P: feel free to interpret that however you want

J: what do you mean you’ve written that and now you're saying something

P: well I’ve written weekly that we oh I suppose that is no actually no I'm not I'm I’m
might make things yeah because that is just how you contact isn’t it yes

J: yeah

P: so erm with the NCT group it’s practical i i it’s it was emotional but it’s now less in both
directions practical support

J: mmhmm

P: and info in both directions that’s still happening and then some of them send things
round thing that they think fun and I do not

J: (laughs)

P: erm right let me give you an example cos this is too [inaudible]

J: (laughs)

P: it’s stuff that’s like oh this is kind of funny I just don’t really need that in my life

J: (laughs)

P: twenty-two ways to prepare for a baby one set an alarm for every two hours

J: what’s that is that meant to be funny or information

P: yeah it’s one of these funny things

J: oh right ok yeah

P: that just harp on and on and I I could really just

J: yeah I get ya

P: yeah ok

J: so it’s they’re they’re sending out things that are meant to be funny but you’re not
really engaging with it

P: yeah

J: yeah

P: yeah

J: whereas like in some of the stuff you shared for me w with Amanda you were clearly
both engaging

P: completely

J: it was fun for both of you and you were both it was ban it was banter

P: (laughs)

J: I think I qui I used the code banter quite a lot

P: yeah

J: in your messages

P: like I I forwarded my brother a picture of outside a VW dealership come on in and get

a 69

J: (laughs)

P: which (laughs) and Alex sent to me and it’s like it’s not it’s just silly

J: mmm

P: and you know that anyway and but they’re just I guess a lot of the NCT group the stuff
they send through tends to always be like fun things to do with parenting

J: mmm ok

P: erm ok Jo erm is erm definitely emotional in both directions

J: mmhmm
P: erm and some practical support as well

J: mmhmm yeah

P: erm occasionally info but our kids are at different stages so

J: yeah

P: not so much erm and things that she had problems with with her kids were basically
sleeping and eating and it’s fine for Em so we don’t tend to talk that much about that erm
Amanda emotional in both directions fun yeah erm particularly like when there’s
something going on like on telly or something that we're something external

J: yeah yeah

P: that we’re both engaged with

J: yeah I noticed you messaging a lot about that [inaudible] things I was gonna as I’ll ask
you about a couple of those [inaudible]

P: (laughs) [inaudible] really embarrassing

J: (laughs)

P: (laughs) erm erm er so yeah occasional practical support but not that often

J: ok

P: Andrea fun emotio no emotional fun emotional support very much fun erm and
occasional info yeah I mean she

J: you’re listing these in order of importance aren’t you

P: I am yeah I am

J: yes yes [inaudible]

P: erm I cos I was thinking about I’m thinking about when her so her sister she she w so
she rang to talk about her sister was gonna was thinking about starting an er a er a
business an app

J: mmhmm

P: erm and she wanted ter talk it through and and well it was slightly awkward because
she explained it and I didn’t underst I I either and or didn’t understand or thought it was
rubbish (laughs) [inaudible] erm anyway erm so yeah then Al emotional support and fun
Alex emotional support and fun and and I think Alex is probably the person that I have
like a hobby with

J: mmhmm
P: and er in terms of having an interest of we talk a lot about cars and like car news

J: mmhmm

P: erm so stuff like that erm so yeah

J: ok

P: and then Malc er h heavily for emotional support in both directions erm fun fun things
we would just share verb like the fun support is just verbal

J: yeah it can be face to face I think

P: i I wouldn’t ever really share stuff with him on his phone because

J: yeah

P: er that said he did he k kicked up a bit of a a stink about not being me not adding him
to facebook groups that I was added in in these contexts

J: yeah

P: and I was like Malc it’s a load of tosh you don’t wannit in you I really just don’t think
you wannit in your life

J: mmm

P: he was like if their husbands are in or partners I should be in s’like ok here you go

J: (laughs)

P: cue fifty notifications of absolute garbage

J: yeah yeah

P: like erm so that is yeah that’s [inaudible] yeah I think that’s everyone well that is
everyone

J: ok yeah yeah that is cos you started here and worked around so w we covered this a
little bit but I was gonna ask whe whether and how this changed since you had Lucy so
we already talked about the fact that these the NCT Jo Amanda would not have been on
here

P: mmm

J: and I assume the others would’ve been roughly where they are now that that
everybody else would’ve been roughly the same before you had her

P: yes the only person who errrr who would’ve been on here so yeah there's there’s
definitely a little sort’ve line there

J: yep yeah yeah

P: erm but Jo is

J: ah yes

P: close I would’ve known Jo because she is my neighbour so she has become closer
because of Lucy

J: ah she’s moved so has she moved from that outer circle

P: yeah

J: to to the next layer in

P: yeah I mean she's a qui er she’s twelve years older than me

J: yeah

P: you know erm there’s not much in common there

J: yep

P: erm so yeah

J: and is there anyone who would’ve been on here before you had Lucy say I don't know
twelve months before you had Lucy who is now out (laughs)

P: erm I don’t think so no

J: no so it would’ve just would’ve been smaller it would’ve just not had those people but
no-one’s moved out

P: yeah

J: I think I know this d I think I know the answer to this question but any are any of these
people LGBT I don’t think they are but I thought I’d check

P: only Malc

J: obv yes obviously (laughs)

P: not really erm possibly my dad but we don’t know

J: oh ok but it’s not like a known thing

P: we don’t

J: oh I won't mention that (laughs) no I was just wondering cos I got the impression that
you didn’t really have any LGBT friends but I just wanted to check whether that was the
case
P: yeah I mean I have one of my friend Niall who is a bassoonist and a teacher who I
haven’t seen I have I mean we didn’t see each other often but we’d occasionally go for a
drink

J: mmhmm

P: but I haven’t seen him since Lucy’s been born because he’s really busy with work

J: yeah

P: every school holiday he’s away erm but then now I only g I actually got back in touch
recently cos I needed him to fill in for like a gig this weekend

J: yeah and has that always been the case that you sort’ve haven’t tended to have other
friends who are gay

P: pretty much er yeah er yeah I mean Julian questioned when he was at school

J: yeah

P: but er not a er er not with or to me erm I only know that actually like years after

J: mmm

P: erm

J: but there’s

P: so no not really not really

J: so there’s other there’s no one sort've who you are connected with because like
you’re both LGBT like having been in like a an LGBT group together you know like
somewhere where you actually kind've sought out

P: I don’t think I’ve ever well when I went to university I did go to like the first meeting of
the LGBT society

J: mmm

P: but I immediately felt that I didn’t really need what it offered

J: mmm

P: which I think was trying to be support

J: yeah

P: it was trying to offer a support network and a sort’ve network of people with this thing
in common

J: yeah
P: and I didn’t feel much er link to that

J: yeah so what do you think it is about your your life that makes you feel that you don’t
need that

P: erm I think it’s just that I don’t really feel defined by my sexuality nor my experiences
of sexuality

J: mmm

P: er and I think because I’ve never f had any sense of rejection because of it or any
kind’ve problem I don’t really I don’t then feel the need to find people who might have
that shared experience

1:36:55
J: yeah

P: erm yeah

J: yeah makes sense how are we doing for time by the way I didn’t check how whether
you’ve got any engagements that you need ter

P: erm m mum’s coming over at half three

J: oh yeah that’s ages away definitely be done by then

P: yeah be alright erm I think I mean the only thing that has kind’ve come to light this
summer is that that Malc and I are both Christian

J: mmhmm

P: and we can’t get married in the church

J: mmm

P: and we could have a blessing but we cannot have and then have a registry office ma
marriage but we cannot have a marriage in church

J: ok

P: because the ch because that law

J: yeah

P: so erm gay people can get married

J: yeah

P: and it’s legally called a marriage but that wasn't imposed on the church of England

J: yeah
P: erm er and I mean nor n n it wasn’t imposed on any ch church but C of E tends to be
[inaudible - undersighted?] and maybe it’s because

J: mmm

P: there’s the link between C of E and government but

J: yeah

P: that erm and so anyway because Gethin’s got married this summer uni friend Al’s got
married this summer Soph another one of our old housemates has got married this
summer so we’ve had lots of weddings and erm Al Al structured his wedding a so that’s
kind’ve just made us it’s made us just aware of how we’re not married

J: mmm

P: and that we would like to be

J: mmm

P: but can’t and then what i ha all so erm all three of them their main weddings were erm
secular in hotels or erm outdoors and and it’s really sort’ve affirmed to us that we’re
doing the right thing in waiting

J: mmm

P: and that actually we don’t we don’t want that like it really is a erm for us about a union
in the eyes of god

J: mmm yeah

P: and that’s what we want to do erm but I Al’ wedding they ended up structuring it that
they had a t church wedding for instead of having a registry office thing they had a
church wedding to please the wife Bethan’s mum his his wife’s mum who wanted that
and they had it just for the we just for the bridal party so really small

J: ok

P: and then they had their main wedding in a field

J: yeah

P: with all their friends and the minister came again they blessed it erm but anyway they
were really really blasé about this church wedding and I just quietly said to Al at one
point so just bear in mind that we can’t do this

J: mmm

P: and we actually do believe it

J: mmm
P: and you don’t and you can so can you just calm it down a little bit and just (laughs)
keep just bear that in mind

J: yeah

P: erm which I think is the closest I have ever come to saying to anyone who is white
straight male just rein it in a bit

J: yeah yeah

P: yeah

J: would you say that to everybody or do you think that’s that’s something you can say to
him that you wouldn’t say to others

P: er w er well I said it to him I said it to him because they were being a bit

J: yeah

P: they were being a bit insensitive erm and er but I would have said it to anyone else
had they been

J: mmm

P: being

J: doing the same

P: and I did I said ter y’know I said ter most people in y’know just when we were just
chatting about the weddings like oh yeah it’s been lovely but y’know weird this summer
and it’s made us think like we do want to get married when we can

J: yeah

P: cos most people don’t really know that you can’t get married men erm sorry gay
couples can’t get married in church

J: yeah yeah yeah

P: cos I think because there was press coverage when it was changed I think everyone
just thinks ah that one’s done now

J: yeah yeah

P: we’ve sorted that no we haven’t so

J: no no so you wanna wait until hopefully you can

P: yeah I mean the Al and Bethan’s the lady who married the vicar who married them
she er I said I chatted to her and she said she re she said 6 months

J: really
P: so presumably that means the coming sinod of the Church of England it’ll be sorted er
I’m not entirely convinced but

J: promising though yeah

P: she knows more about it than I do I know it is promising I mean when we moved to
this village the vicar of the church here who was the curate at the time for the for our
village church erm cos it’s part of a

J: mmm

P: broad network of churches erm he said he would love to marry us but just can’t

J: yeah

P: so it’s not like yeah I there’s a there is definitely a will there

J: mmm yeah yeah it’s exciting (laughs) yeah six months

P: believe it when I see it

J: yeah we’ll see we’ll see I guess it’s just a bit like the whole waiting for your IVF it’s
kind’ve hold off on getting too excited about it

P: yeah

J: ok errrm is there anything I wanted to ask you about this specifically I think I was just
gonna ask you sort’ve generally what kind’ve effect having that network which from from
what you’ve said to me seems very tight and close and supportive

P: mmm

J: what what impact that’s had on you becoming a parent and on like on your family if
any (laughs)

P: erm well I don’t think I could’ve gotten through the challenges of er er the challenges
that a baby presents

J: yeah

P: I don’t think I could’ve gotten through them on my own

J: mmhmm

P: erm yeah which I spose is what becoming a parent is er as Lu gets older I’m finding
more and more that the stuff that I really think of as parenting

J: mmhmm

P: rather than keeping a bag y’know keeping this thing alive

J: yeah (laughs)

P: when it comes to like actually influencing because she’s now a person

J: mmm

P: it’s now far more down to instinct er it feels to me that it’s more like I’m now parenting
by instinct

J: ok

P: so what do I think is right how do I think I want ter raise my child whereas before it
was far more like this is the symptom I’m seeing what do I do

J: yeah

P: my instinct is this what do you think

J: mmhmm

P: now that it’s so now that it’s less the practical things of keeping her alive

J: (laughs)

P: and it’s more the practical things that shaping her and rai raising her it’s become more
erm [inaudible] and maybe that's maybe that’s a confidence thing that’s come with time
over the last two years or maybe it’s because of the change in what we’re what I’m doing
with her as she grows

J: yeah

P: I dunno erm what was the original question

J: like

P: I’ve done that in interviews more times than I really should’ve done

J: (laughs) no no fair enough so what what does having this network do for you as a
parent and in terms of raising your family I guess also in terms of making that decision
that to have to have a family in the first place as well

P: I do remember when we were first applying for a surrogacy for Lucy y’know and one
of the thi one of the questions on the form was about a support network

J: yeah

P: and saying ah we’ve got this network around the village and it I felt slightly fraudulent
almost because I thought we we’re entirely hoping that this network is gonna come
together when she’s born because I’m gonna put myself in these situations

J: yeah
P: with her and then it’ll go from there which it has erm but that was a bit of a gamble

J: yeah

P: erm oh Malc’s home

J: so you were relying on this local network working out

P: yeah

J: a little

[Peter’s partner comes in to the room; some chat]

P: erm the effect of yeah er of having a network

J: oh yeah you were saying that they asked about your network and you were sort’ve
said you had this local network before you actually did

P: yeah kind’ve assumed it would come together

J: yeah

P: erm I mean I'm quite out y outgoing and gregarious so so it wasn’t I wasn’t too
worried

J: mmm

P: about it I was just aware that it’s just like a hollow answer

J: yeah

P: erm but I don’t I don't think I could’ve gotten through some of the h harder bits of baby
of the baby stage on without y’know oh no I w I I would’ve done it’s partly not having erm
the gran either of the grandparents locally

J: yeah

P: not having that one that and I think I think mmm hypothetically I probably would’ve
gone down to Dorwich or Newgate for a week

J: mmm mmm mmm

P: or something which would’ve been really really poop because Malc’s very engaged
erm it’s

J: yeah

P: there’s no sort’ve imbalance there between us

J: mmm
P: erm and h I er had I r had I removed us me and her from here to have more support

J: mmm

P: I think he would’ve found it immensely difficult

J: yeah

P: erm and in fair y’know and actually there was one instance where where when would
it have been maybe January so [inaudible] about four months he came home and the
next day he’d been due to go to Spain for ski work

J: yeah

P: but only for four nights and I just I was a real I think the lowest I’ve ever been with her
erm and he just cancelled it on the spot so erm yeah I think h I mean I guess it’s M Malc
is the foundation of my support

J: mmm

P: network through life

J: yeah

P: so I think that’s why I knew it would be ok because no matter what happened to the
size of that network th he was always there

J: yeah yeah yeah I think that you represented that very nicely [inaudible] (laughs)

P: I’m very pleased very pleased (laughs)

1:48:03
J: you’ll have to take a photo of this before I take it away by the way (laughs) ok let me
have a look if I’ve got anything else that I wanted to ask you I think they’re just very short
things now oh an important one actually erm so I sent you the that paragraph in the
questionnaire and you were all right with that and I corrected this [inaudible]

P: (laughs)

J: erm I just wanted to check whether you’re happy with the level of anonymity I’ve given
you because I can make you more anonymous by changing details so I could change
things I mean I may not I may or may not even mention this stuff I just wanted to give
you an idea of how I was going to write about you but I can not mention things like what
job you do and I can you know I can easily not mention what job he does I can
anonymise you more is what I’m saying if you want me to

P: that would be good [pointing to detail about Malcolm’s occupation]

J: yeah

P: if that’s ok
J: yeah definitely

P: erm o er yeah other than that it’s fine actually yeah

J: like you know you being a a musician for example I don’t

P: it’s just so vague

J: it is vague yeah it is vague and then I and I wouldn’t include any more detail it’s
probably you’re less recognisable than some other participants I I’ve got who are sort’ve
more in the public eye or just kind’ve visible in their communities

P: mmhmm

J: but it’s still y’know it could happen that somebody’s like

P: (laughs)

J: oh I bet that’s so and so oh there you go (laughs)

P: (laughs) yes it does [he is reading ahead to questions I have about specific digital
interactions with his friends – e.g. what abbreviations like bbz mean and why they call
each other things like ‘sugar tits’]

J: yeah ok yeah

P: yes it does erm (laughs)

J: sorry (laughs)

P: (laughs) it just yeah all it’s very embarrassing [referring to ‘pet names’ between him
and a particular friend] erm it all came about because I think we just when we lived
together it all just became we just became overly affectionate

J: yeah

P: and it's just carried on from that

J: I'll just explain this question for the tape yeah yeah so we're

P: [inaudible] it’s just our like nicknames for each other our like sugar and and obviously
the other two

J: (laughs)

P: erm Hazmat so Amanda’s son is called Hayden and my phone I put Haz in and it put
it to Hazmat and so I (laughs)

J: oh

P: it just [inaudible]
J: it’s an autocorrect fail

P: it’s an autocorrect fail and I just

J: ok

P: and I thought that I think Hazmat is something to do with like hazardous material I
think it’s hazmat is hazardous material

J: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

P: and that’s why it amused me

J: ok ok so it is ok

P: erm so that’s where that came from

J: I did think is that his actual name it’s a very strange name

P: y you never know

J: ok

P: errr is just screenshots of comments from Facebook posts

J: yeah so I think I’ve since found this group blow your horn Carville it it’s a local group

P: it’s a local group

J: but I think I had another question

P: so it

J: what do you mean when you talk about yeah so tell me about this blow your horn
Carville and the fact that you talk about it

P: ok yeah so BYH is erm so Carville Carville [in a posh/’knowing’ tone]

J: yeah

P: erm has so it has every night erm the horn the a person

J: yeah

P: takes a horn and goes up to the square and blows their horn at the four corners of the
obelisk to sound that everything is ok and this is a

J: w that this actually happens

P: this actually happens every night

J: yeah wow
P: and this has happened I think it’s for something like a thousand years according to
Wikipedia

J: wow ok

P: but it’s a very very old tradition

J: ok

P: of the hornblower so around Ca so the symbol for Carville is the is the horn erm so
that’s where that c and so blow your horn is the community group for Carville erm to

J: mmhmm

P: promote er business er Amanda and I (laughs) just laugh at it and Malc and Malc and
I have been in stitches because it’s the general public at their best

J: (laughs)

P: of just (laughs) spouting off utter rubbish

J: yeah yeah

P: about n completely inconsequential things so that's and so we just sometimes if

things amuse us like k I can’t believe that this person has taken the time out of their day
to go online to make this thing and

J: yeah yeah I had a feeling that that’s what it was I just wanted ter check

P: that’s what that is [looking at the next question] blue ticking is

J: isn’t that when somebody’s like registered user

P: yeah so er no er no no so it means er that so Andrea has seen my message and all it

means is when you open

J: oh that blue ticking

P: yeah the message

J: ok

P: and so the sender knows that you’ve read it

J: yes ok

P: and so she’s obsessed with blue ticking and when she was separated she was seeing
like a Gavin who

J: what do you mean she’s obsessed with blue ticking with checking that people h
P: no no it’s a slightly different thing

J: I don’t know what that me

P: so erm so she was seeing this guy Gavin and he kept blue ticking her which means

J: yes

P: that he would see her mess he would open her messages

J: yeah

P: presumably read them

J: yes

P: but then not reply

J: yes ok

P: so you know that he's read it but not replied and so erm she’s like oh but he’s working
he says he’s working but he’s got time to look at the message so can't he just type a
reply r r r

J: oh ok

P: and it’s like (sighs) yeah

J: (laughs)

P: sure he I’m sure he probably is working

J: yeah (laughs)

P: erm so y'know erm so that’s what that is

1:53:03
P: erm we are mortgaged

J: oh yes yep mortgaged that was I think I think I might not have included it in your
questionnaire and I meant to

P: ok erm anonymity

J: yeah

P: we've just slightly amended it pseudonyms are fine erm

J: ok that's the only one that I was kind of interested in whether y whether E Lucy was
starting to call you different things

P: oh very much so yes so I'm Dad and Malc's Daddy

J: yeah

P: and she definitely calls us two different things

J: oh ok

P: and she's obsessed at the minute with it's Dad's it's Dad's cup it's Dad's coffee it's
Dad's shoes

J: yeah

P: Daddy's this that and the other

J: yeah

P: so she's a bit possessive she's become really interested in I should go get her
actually she's just woken up

J: that's all right good timing (laughs) she can demonstrate

[some talk around Lucy. Both she and Malcolm come in to the room and we chat briefly
about how her talking is coming along whilst she is babbling]

1:58:19
J: did you choose that or did that kind've just

P: we chose that yeah

J: ok

P: er yeah

D: she might change it later but

J: yeah

D: she does do that at the minute so (laughs)

J: yeah yeah yeah

P: we tried quite hard to be a yeah consistent with it

J: yeah

P: to get our parents to be consistent so I know mine found it challenging

D: yes (laughs)

J: oh really

P: well yeah just weird cos she'll say oh Daddy oh no sorry bleurgh
J: ok yeah ok yeah I guess when they're younger Daddy Daddy and Mummy is more
common isn't it

P: I think so we found that slightly confusing but

J: yeah yeah

1:59:00