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 BY CHARLES DUHIGG

ION
The Power of Habit
T
T R IBU
Smarter Faster Better
D I S
F ORSupercommunicators
T
NO

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 SUPERCOMMUNICATORS
T ION
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 SUPERCOM M
iv 

SUPERCOM M
SUPERCOM M
SUPERCOM M
SUPERCOM M
T ION
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SUPERCOM M OR
DI ST RIB
U T ION

SUPERCOM M
OTF
N

SUPERCOM M
SUPERCOM M
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M MUNICATORS
M MUNICATORS  v

M MUNICATORS
M MUNICATORS
M MUNICATORS
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M MUNICATORS How to Unlock the TION

OR
D
TRI
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Secret Language ofISConnection

M MUNICATORS
T F
NO

CHARLES DUHIGG

M MUNICATORS
M MUNICATORS R A N D OM HOUSE | N E W YO R K

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 Supercommunicators is a work of nonfiction. Nonetheless,
some names and characteristics of individuals or events have been

ION
changed to disguise identities, to maintain anonymity, or for other reasons.
T
Any resulting resemblance to persons living or dead is
U
RIB
entirely coincidental and unintentional.

D IST
Copyright © 2024 by Charles Duhigg
FOR All rights reserved.
OT in the United States by Random House,
NPublished
an imprint and division of Penguin Random House LLC, New York.
Random House and the House colophon are registered
trademarks of Penguin Random House LLC.
T ION
U
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l i bra ry o f co ng r e ss cata lo g in g - i­ n -­p ub lic at ion d ata

Title: Supercommunicators: how D

T
Names: Duhigg, Charles, author.
S
I the secret language
to unlock
O
of connection /R
F House, [2024] | Includes index.
TRandom
Charles Duhigg.

Identifiers: LCCN N
O
Description: New York:
2023025671 (print) | LCCN 2023025672 (ebook) |
ISBN 9780593243916 (hardcover) | ISBN 9780593243930 (ebook) |
ISBN 9780593732236 (international edition)
Subjects: LCSH: Interpersonal communication. |
Communication—­Psychological aspects.
Classification: LCC BF637.C45 D858 2024 (print) | LCC BF637.C45 (ebook) |
DDC 153.6—­dc23/eng/20230721
LC record available at https://lccn.loc.gov/2023025671
LC ebook record available at https://lccn.loc.gov/2023025672
Printed in the United States of America on acid-­free paper
randomhousebooks.com
246897531
first edition
Book design by Casey Hampton

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 6 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 To John Duhigg,
Susan Kamil,
and T ION
U
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T Oli,
DISHarry,
T FOR and Liz
NO

T ION
U
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DI
OR
OTF
N

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 T ION
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 CONTENTS

T ION
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Prologue xi
N
U TIO
ST RIB
THE THREE KINDS OF CONVERSATION
DI 1

T FOR
NO
Chapter One: The Matching Principle
How to Fail at Recruiting Spies 3

A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part I

The Four Rules for a Meaningful Conversation 29

THE WHAT’S THIS REALLY ABOUT? CONVERSATION 35

Chapter Two: Every Conversation Is a Negotiation

The Trial of Leroy Reed 37

A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part II

Asking Questions and Noticing Clues 68

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 9 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 x CONTENTS

THE HOW DO WE FEEL? CONVERSATION 77

Chapter Three: The Listening Cure

Touchy-­Feely Hedge Funders 79

Chapter Four: How Do You Hear Emotions No One Says Aloud?

The Big Bang Theory 104

Chapter Five: Connecting Amid Conflict

Talking to the Enemy About Guns 131

A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part III

Emotional Conversations, in Life and Online 161
N
TIO
T R IBU
R DIS
THE WHO ARE WE? CONVERSATION 169
O
O
Chapter Six: Our T F Identities Shape Our Worlds
Social
N
Vaccinating the Anti-­Vaxxers 171

ION
Chapter Seven: How Do We Make the Hardest
U T
RIB
Conversations Safer?
ST
The Problem Netflix Lives With
DI 198

T FOR
NO
A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part IV
Making Hard Conversations Easier 228

Afterword 235

Acknowledgments 247
A Note on Sources and Methods 249
Notes 251
Index 293

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r2.w.indd 10 11/2/23 1:34 PM

 PROLOGUE

T ION
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DIST
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If there was one thing everyone knew about Felix Sigala, it was that
IO N
he was easy to talk to. Exceptionally easy. People
U T loved talking to
IB
STR a little smarter, funnier,
him, because they always came away Ifeeling
D
FOR nothing in common with Felix—­
more interesting. Even if you had
T
NO the conversation inevitably revealed all
which was unusual, because
kinds of opinions or experiences or friends you shared—­it felt as if
he heard you, like you had some kind of bond.
That’s why the scientists had sought him out.
Felix had been with the Federal Bureau of Investigation for two
decades. He had joined after college and a stint in the military, and
then had spent a few years as an agent in the field. That’s where his
superiors had first taken note of his easy way with others. A series of
promotions soon followed, and eventually he landed as a senior re-
gional administrator with a mandate to serve as an all-­around nego-
tiator. He was the guy who could coax statements from reluctant
witnesses, or convince fugitives to turn themselves in, or console

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 11 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 xii Prologue

families as they grieved. He once persuaded a man who had barri-

caded himself in a room with six cobras, nineteen rattlesnakes, and
an iguana to come out peacefully and then name his accomplices in
an animal-­smuggling ring. “The key was getting him to see things
from the snakes’ perspective,” Felix told me. “He was a little weird,
but he genuinely loved animals.”
The FBI had a Crisis Negotiation Unit for hostage situations.
When things got unusually complicated, they called someone like
Felix.
There were lessons that Felix would share with younger agents
when they asked for advice: Never pretend you’re anything other
than a cop. Never manipulate or threaten. T ONlots of questions, and,
IAsk
U
IBcry
when someone becomes emotional, T R or laugh or complain or cel-
D IS
F R ultimately made him so good at his job
ebrate with them. ButOwhat
T
was a bit of aN O
mystery, even to his colleagues.
So, in 2014, when a group of psychologists, sociologists, and
other researchers were tasked by the Department of Defense to ex-
N
plore new methods for teaching persuasionUand TIOnegotiation to
military officers—­essentially, how doIwe TR IB
train people to get better
D S
at communication?—­ OR sought out Felix. They had
the scientists
F
T
learned about him from NOvarious officials who, when asked to name
the best negotiators they had ever worked with, brought up his
name, again and again.
Many of the scientists expected Felix to be tall and handsome,
with warm eyes and a rich baritone. The guy who walked in for the
interview, however, looked like a middle-­aged dad, with a mustache,
a little padding around the middle, and a soft, slightly nasal voice. He
seemed . . . ​unremarkable.
Felix told me that, after introductions and pleasantries, one of the
scientists explained the nature of their project, and then began with
a broad question: “Can you tell us how you think about communica-
tion?”

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 Prologue xiii

“It might be better if I demonstrate it,” Felix replied. “What’s one

of your favorite memories?”
The scientist Felix was speaking to had introduced himself as the
head of a large lab. He oversaw millions of dollars in grants and doz-
ens of people. He didn’t seem like the kind of guy accustomed to
idly reminiscing in the middle of the day.
The scientist paused. “Probably my daughter’s wedding,” he fi-
nally said. “My whole family was there, and my mother died just a
few months later.”
Felix asked a few follow-­up questions, and occasionally shared
memories of his own. “My sister got married in 2010,” Felix told the
N
TIO which was hard—­but
man. “She’s passed away now—­it wasUcancer,
B
TRI how I try to remember her.”
she was so beautiful that day.SThat’s
I
R
It went on this wayOfor
D
the next forty-­five minutes. Felix would ask
T F
O
the scientistsNquestions, and occasionally talk about himself. When
someone revealed something personal, Felix would reciprocate with
a story from his own life. One scientist mentioned problems he was
having with a teenage daughter, and Felix responded T IONby describing
BU
TRI no matter how hard he
an aunt he couldn’t seem to get alongISwith,
R D about Felix’s childhood, he ex-
tried. When another researcherOasked
F
T
NO painfully shy—­but his father had been a
plained that he had been
salesman (and his grandfather a con man), and so, by imitating their
examples, he had eventually learned how to connect with others.
As they got close to the end of their scheduled time together, a
professor of psychology chimed in. “I’m sorry,” she said, “this has been
wonderful, but I don’t feel any closer to understanding what you do.
Why do you think so many people recommended we talk to you?”
“That’s a fair question,” Felix replied. “Before I answer, I want to
ask: You mentioned you’re a single mom, and I imagine there’s a lot
to juggling motherhood and a career. This might seem unusual, but
I’m wondering: What would you tell someone who’s getting a di-
vorce?”

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 xiv Prologue

The woman went silent for a beat. “I guess I’ll play along,” she
said. “I have lots of advice. When I separated from my husband—­”
Felix gently interrupted.
“I don’t really need an answer,” he said. “But I want to point out
that, in a room filled with professional colleagues, and after less than
an hour of conversation, you’re willing to talk about one of the most
intimate parts of your life.” He explained that one reason she felt so
at ease was likely because of the environment they had created to-
gether, how Felix had listened closely, had asked questions that drew
out people’s vulnerabilities, how they had all revealed meaningful
details about themselves. Felix had encouraged the scientists to ex-
N
IOproven
plain how they saw the world, and then U Thad to them that he
R I B
had heard what they were saying.
D IST Whenever someone said some-
thing emotional—­
T FORwhen they didn’t realize their emotions
even
NO Felix had reciprocated by voicing feelings of his
were on display—­
own. All those small choices they had made, he explained, had cre-
ated an atmosphere of trust.
T
“It’s a set of skills,” he told the scientists. “There’s ON magical
Inothing
U
about it.” Put differently, anyone can learn ST RtoIB
be a supercommunica-
D I
tor. O R
OTF
N
Who would you call if you were having a bad day? If you had screwed
up a deal at work, or had gotten into an argument with your spouse,
or were feeling frustrated and sick of it all: Who would you want to
talk to? There’s likely someone that you know who will make you
feel better, who can help you think through a thorny question or
share a moment of heartbreak or joy.
Now, ask yourself: Are they the funniest person in your life?
(Probably not, but if you paid close attention, you’d notice they
laugh more than most people.) Are they the most interesting or
smartest person you know? (What’s more likely is that, even if they

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 Prologue xv

don’t say anything particularly wise, you anticipate that you will feel
smarter after talking to them.) Are they your most entertaining or
confident friend? Do they give the best advice? (Most likely: Nope,
nope, and nope—­but when you hang up the phone, you’ll feel
calmer and more centered and closer to the right choice.)
So what are they doing that makes you feel so good?
This book attempts to answer that question. Over the past two
decades, a body of research has emerged that sheds light on why some
of our conversations go so well, while others are so miserable. These
insights can help us hear more clearly and speak more engagingly.
We know that our brains have evolved to crave connection: When we
N
“click” with someone, our eyes oftenUstartTIOto dilate in tandem; our
pulses match; we feel the same S RIB and start to complete each
Temotions
D I
other’s sentences within
F O R our heads. This is known as neural entrain-
ment, and it N OTwonderful. Sometimes it happens and we have no
feels
idea why; we just feel lucky that the conversation went so well. Other
times, even when we’re desperate to bond with someone, we fail
again and again. T ION
BU
TRI
For many of us, conversations canISsometimes seem bewildering,
R D
FO biggest problem with communi-
stressful, even terrifying. “The single
T
O
cation,” said the playwright
N George Bernard Shaw,“is the illusion it has
taken place.” But scientists have now unraveled many of the secrets of
how successful conversations happen. They’ve learned that paying at-
tention to someone’s body, alongside their voice, helps us hear them
better. They have determined that how we ask a question sometimes
matters more than what we ask. We’re better off, it seems, acknowledg-
ing social differences, rather than pretending they don’t exist. Every
discussion is influenced by emotions, no matter how rational the topic
at hand. When starting a dialogue, it helps to think of the discussion
as a negotiation where the prize is figuring out what everyone wants.
And, above all, the most important goal of any conversation is to
connect.

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 xvi Prologue

This book was born, in part, from my own failures at communicat-

ing. A few years ago, I was asked to help manage a relatively complex
work project. I had never been a manager before—­but I had worked
for plenty of bosses. Plus, I had a fancy MBA from Harvard Business
School and, as a journalist, communicated as a profession! How hard
could it be?
Very hard, it turned out. I was fine at drawing up schedules and
planning logistics. But, time and again, I struggled with connecting.
One day a colleague told me they felt their suggestions were being
T ION
ignored, their contributions going unrecognized. “It’s incredibly
I BU
R
frustrating,” they said.
D IST
FOR them and began suggesting possible solu-
I told them that I heard
T
tions: Perhaps O should run the meetings? Or maybe we should
Nthey
draw up a formal organizational chart, clearly spelling out every-
one’s duties? Or what if we—­
“You’re not listening to me,” they interrupted. T ON don’t need
I“We
BU
clearer roles. We need to do a better IjobSTRofI respecting each other.”
D
They wanted to talk about how
F ORpeople were treating one another,
OT fixes. They had told me they needed
but I was obsessed withNpractical
empathy, but rather than listen, I replied with solutions.
The truth is, a similar dynamic sometimes played out at home.
My family would go on vacation, and I would find something to
obsess over—­we didn’t get the hotel room we were promised; the
guy on the airplane had reclined his seat—­and my wife would listen
and respond with a perfectly reasonable suggestion: Why don’t you
focus on the positive aspects of the trip? Then I, in turn, would get
upset because it felt like she didn’t understand that I was asking for
support—­tell me I’m right to be outraged!—­rather than sensible ad-
vice. Sometimes my kids would want to talk and I, consumed by
work or some other distraction, would only half listen until they

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 Prologue xvii

wandered away. I could see, in retrospect, that I was failing the peo-
ple who were most important to me, but I didn’t know how to fix it.
I was particularly confused by these failures because, as a writer, I am
supposed to communicate for a living. Why was I struggling to con-
nect with—­and hear—­the people who mattered most?
I have a feeling I’m not alone in this confusion. We’ve all failed, at
times, to listen to our friends and colleagues, to appreciate what they
are trying to tell us—­to hear what they’re saying. And we’ve all failed
to speak so we can be understood.
This book, then, is an attempt to explain why communication
goes awry and what we can do to make it better. At its core are a
handful of key ideas. T ION
U
T RIB are actually three different
The first one is that manySdiscussions
I
Dpractical,
conversations. ThereOare
F R decision-­making conversations
that focus on T
O This Really About? There are emotional conver-
NWhat’s
sations, which ask How Do We Feel? And there are social conversa-
tions that explore Who Are We? We are often moving in and out of all
three conversations as a dialogue unfolds. However, T IOifNwe aren’t hav-
ing the same kind of conversation asIour
IBU at the same mo-
TRpartners,
S
ment, we’re unlikely to connect
F R D each other.
Owith
What’s more, eachN OTof conversation operates by its own logic
type
and requires its own set of skills, and so to communicate well, we
have to know how to detect which kind of conversation is occurring,
03 and03 understand how it functions.

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 xviii Prologue

Which brings me to the second idea at the core of this book: Our
goal, for the most meaningful discussions, should be to have a “learn-
ing conversation.” Specifically, we want to learn how the people around
us see the world and help them understand our perspectives in turn.
The last big idea isn’t really an idea, but rather something I’ve
learned: Anyone can become a supercommunicator​—​and, in fact,
many of us already are, if we learn to unlock our instincts. We can all
learn to hear more clearly, to connect on a deeper level. In the pages
ahead, you’ll see how executives at Netflix, the creators of The Big Bang
Theory, spies and surgeons, NASA psychologists and COVID research-
ers have transformed how they speak and listen—­and, as a result, have
managed to connect with people across T ION vast divides. And
seemingly
U
you will see how these lessonsST RIBto everyday conversations: our
apply
chats with workmates, R DI romantic partners and our kids, the
friends,
FO
Tshop
N O
barista at the coffee and that woman we always wave to on the bus.
And that’s important, because learning to have meaningful con-
versations is, in some ways, more urgent than ever before. It’s no se-
IOweN
cret the world has become increasingly polarized, U Tthat struggle to
IB
R down together, listen to
hear and be heard. But if we know howIStoTsit
each other and, even if we can’tO
D
R every disagreement, find ways
T F resolve
to hear one another and O what is needed, we can coexist and thrive.
Nsay
Every meaningful conversation is made up of countless
small choices. There are fleeting moments when the right question,
or a vulnerable admission, or an empathetic word can completely
change a dialogue. A silent laugh, a barely audible sigh, a friendly
smile during a tense moment: Some people have learned to spot
these opportunities, to detect what kind of discussion is occurring,
to understand what others really want. They have learned how to
hear what’s unsaid and speak so others want to listen.
This, then, is a book that explores how we communicate and con-
nect. Because the right conversation, at the right moment, can change
everything.

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 THE THREE KINDS OF CONVERSATION
AN OVERVIEW

Conversation is the communal air we breathe. All day long, we talk to

our families, friends, strangers, coworkers, and sometimes pets. We
communicate via text, email, online posts, and social media. We speak
via keyboards and voice-­
to-­
text, sometimes with handwritten letters
and, occasionally, with grunts, smiles, grimaces, and sighs.
But not all conversations are equal. When a discussion is meaningful,
T ION
U
it can feel wonderful, as if something important has been revealed. “Ul-
RIB
IST
timately, the bond of all companionship, whether in marriage or in
D
FOR wrote Oscar Wilde.
friendship, is conversation,”
T
NO conversations, when they don’t
But meaningful go well, can feel
awful. They are frustrating, disappointing, a missed opportunity. We
might walk away confused, upset, uncertain if anyone understood any-
T ION
thing that was said. U
ST RIB
DI
What makes the difference?

FOR
As the next chapter explains, our brains have evolved to crave con-
T
NO
nection. But consistently achieving alignment with other people requires
understanding how communication functions—­
and, most important,
recognizing that we need to be engaged in the same kind of conversa-
tion, at the same time, if we want to connect.
Supercommunicators aren’t born with special abilities—­
but they
have thought harder about how conversations unfold, why they succeed
or fail, the nearly infinite number of choices that each dialogue offers
that can bring us closer together or push us apart. When we learn to
recognize those opportunities, we begin to speak and hear in new ways.

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 T ION
U
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DIST
T FOR
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

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 1

THE MATCHING PRINCIPLE

N
TIO Spies
How to Fail at Recruiting
BU
I STRI
D
OR
TF
NO
If Jim Lawler was being honest with himself, he had to admit that he
was terrible at recruiting spies. So bad, in fact, T ION
that he spent most
IB U
nights worrying about getting fired Ifrom
D STRthe only job he had ever
loved, a job he had landed two R earlier as a case officer for the
FOyears
T
NO
Central Intelligence Agency.
It was 1982 and Lawler was thirty years old. He had joined the
CIA after attending law school at the University of Texas, where he
had gotten mediocre grades, and then cycling through a series of
dull jobs. One day, unsure what to do with his life, he telephoned a
CIA headhunter he had once met on campus. A job interview fol-
lowed, then a polygraph test, then a dozen more interviews in vari-
ous cities, and then a series of exams that seemed designed to ferret
out everything Lawler didn’t know. (Who, he wondered, memorizes
rugby world champions from the 1960s?)
Eventually, he made it to the final interview. Things weren’t look-
ing good. His exam performances had been poor to middling. He

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 3 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 4 The Three Kinds of Conversation

had no overseas experience, no knowledge of foreign languages, no

military service or special skills. Yet, the interviewer noted, Lawler
had flown himself to Washington, D.C., for this interview on his
own dime; had persisted through each test, even when it was clear he
didn’t have the first clue how to answer most questions; had re-
sponded to every setback with what seemed like admirable, if mis-
placed, optimism.
Why, the man asked, did he want to join the CIA so badly?
“I’ve wanted to do something important my entire life,” Lawler
replied. He wanted to serve his country and “bring democracy to na-
tions yearning for freedom.” Even as the words came out, he realized
how ridiculous they sounded. Who says T ION in an interview? So
yearning
U
IBthe
he stopped, took a breath, and T R
said most honest thing he could
D IS
F R ” he told the interviewer. “I want to be
think of: “My life feelsOempty,
T
NO meaningful.”
part of something
A week later the agency called to offer him a job. He accepted
immediately and reported to Camp Peary—­the Farm, as the agency’s
IO N
training facility in Virginia is known—­to be tutored
U T in lock picking,
IB
dead drops, and covert surveillance. ISTR
D
The most surprising aspectOofRthe Farm’s curriculum, however,
T F
was the agency’s devotionNO to the art of conversation. In his time
there, Lawler learned that working for the CIA was essentially a
communications job. A field officer’s mandate wasn’t slinking in
shadows or whispering in parking lots; it was talking to people at
parties, making friends in embassies, bonding with foreign officials
in the hope that, someday, you might have a quiet chat about some
critical piece of intelligence. Communication is so important that a
summary of CIA training methods puts it right up front: “Find ways
to connect,” it says. “A case officer’s goal should be to have a prospec-
tive agent come to believe, hopefully with good reason, that the case
officer is one of the few people, perhaps the ONLY person, who truly
understands him.”

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 4 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 5

Lawler finished spy school with high marks and was shipped off
to Europe. His assignment was to establish rapport with foreign bu-
reaucrats, cultivate friendships with embassy attachés, and develop
other sources who might be willing to have candid conversations—­
and thereby, his bosses hoped, open channels for discussions that
make the world’s affairs a bit more manageable.

Lawler’s first few months abroad were miserable. He tried his best to
blend in. He attended black-­tie soirees and had drinks at bars near
embassies. Nothing worked. There was a clerk from the Chinese del-
egation he met après-­ski and repeatedly T ON to lunch and cock-
Iinvited
IB U
tails. Eventually Lawler worked T R
up the courage to inquire if his new
D IS
FORto earn some extra cash passing along gossip
friend, perhaps, wanted
T
NO his embassy. The man replied that his family was
he heard inside
quite wealthy, thank you, and his bosses tended to execute people for
things like that. He would pass.
N
IOconsulate
Then there was a receptionist from the Soviet U T who
R IB
seemed promising until one of Lawler’s
D IST superiors took him aside
and explained that she, in fact,O R for the KGB and was trying to
F worked
T
recruit him. NO
Eventually, a career-­saving opportunity appeared: A CIA col-
league mentioned that a young woman from the Middle East, who
worked in her country’s foreign ministry, was visiting. Yasmin was
on vacation, the colleague explained, staying with a brother who had
moved to Europe. A few days later, Lawler managed to “bump into”
her at a restaurant. He introduced himself as an oil speculator. As
they began talking, Yasmin mentioned that her brother was always
busy, never available for sightseeing. She seemed lonely.
Lawler invited her to lunch the next day and asked about her life.
Did she like her job? Was it hard living in a country that had recently
undergone a conservative revolution? Yasmin confided that she

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 5 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 6 The Three Kinds of Conversation

hated the religious radicals who had come to power. She longed to
move away, to live in Paris or New York, but for that she needed
money, and it had taken months of saving just to afford this brief
trip.
Lawler, sensing an opening, mentioned that his oil company was
looking for a consultant. It was part-­time work, he said, assignments
she could do alongside her job at the foreign ministry. But he could
offer her a signing bonus. “We ordered champagne and I thought she
was going to start crying, she was so happy,” he told me.
After lunch, Lawler rushed back to the office to find his boss.
Finally, he had recruited his first spy! “And he tells me, ‘Congratula-
IO N
tions. Headquarters is gonna be overjoyed.
U T Now you need to tell her
R I B
you’re CIA and you’ll want S T
Iinformation about her government.’ ”
D
Lawler thought that O
T FwasR a terrible idea. If he was honest with Yas-
NOspeak to him again.
min, she’d never
But his boss explained that it was unfair to ask someone to work
for the CIA without being forthright. If Yasmin’s government ever
N
IOhad
found out, she would be jailed, possibly killed. U TShe to under-
R IB
stand the risks.
D IST
FORwith Yasmin, and tried to find the
So, Lawler continued meeting
T
right moment to reveal NOhis true employer. She became increasingly
candid as they spent more time together. She was ashamed that her
government was shutting down newspapers and prohibiting free
speech, she told him, and despised the bureaucrats who had made it
illegal for women to study certain topics in college and had forced
them to wear hijabs in public. When she first sought out a job with
the government, she said, she had never imagined things would get
this bad.
Lawler took this as a sign. One night, over dinner, he explained
that he was not an oil speculator, but, rather, an American intelli-
gence officer. He told her that the United States wanted the same
things she did: To undermine her country’s theocracy, to weaken its

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 6 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 7

leaders, to stop the repression of women. He apologized for lying

about who he was, but the job offer was real. Would she consider
working for the Central Intelligence Agency?
“As I talked, I watched her eyes get bigger and bigger, and she
started gripping the tablecloth, and then shaking her head, no-­no-­no,
and, when I finally stopped, she started crying, and I knew I was
screwed,” Lawler told me. “She said they murdered people for that,
and there was no way she could help.” There was nothing he could
say to convince her to consider the idea. “All she wanted was to get
away from me.”
Lawler went back to his boss with the bad news. “And he says,
‘I’ve already told everyone you recruited T ION
her! I told the division chief,
I BU
R
IST told D.C. Now you want me to tell
and the chief of station, and they
D
F theRdeal?’”
them you can’t close O
T
NOno idea what to do next. “No amount of money or
Lawler had
promises would have convinced her to take a suicidal risk,” he told
me. The only possible way forward was convincing Yasmin that she
N
IOprotect
could trust him, that he understood her and would U T her. But
R I B
how do you do that? “They taught me,
D ISTat the Farm, that to recruit
someone, you have to convince
T FORthem that you care about them,
which means you haveNto Oactually care about them, which means you
have to connect in some way. And I had no idea how to make that
happen.”

How do we create a genuine connection with another person? How

do we nudge someone, through a conversation, to take a risk, em-
brace an adventure, accept a job, or go on a date?
Let’s lower the stakes. What if you’re trying to bond with your
boss, or get to know a new friend: How do you convince them to let
down their guard? How do you show you’re listening?
Over the past few decades, as new methods for studying our be-

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 8 The Three Kinds of Conversation

haviors and brains have emerged, these kinds of questions have

driven researchers to examine nearly every aspect of communica-
tion. Scientists have scrutinized how our minds absorb information,
and have found that connecting with others through speech is both
more powerful, and more complicated, than we ever realized. How
we communicate—­the unconscious decisions we make as we speak
and listen, the questions we ask and the vulnerabilities we expose,
even our tone of voice—­can influence who we trust, are persuaded
by, and seek out as friends.
Alongside this new understanding, there’s also been a flurry of
research showing that at the heart of every conversation is the poten-
N
tial for neurological synchronization,Uan TIOalignment of our brains
and bodies—­everything fromST RIBfast each of us breathes to the
how
I
D that we often fail to notice, but which
goose bumps on our O R
skin—­
TF
influences howNOwe talk, hear, and think. Some people consistently
fail to synchronize with others, even when they’re speaking to close
friends. Others—­let’s call them supercommunicators—­seem to syn-
chronize effortlessly with just about anyone. Most T IOofNus lie some-
BU
TRI in more meaningful
where in between. But we can learn toISconnect
D work.
OR
ways if we understand how conversations
F
T
NO the path toward making a connection
For Jim Lawler, however,
with Yasmin seemed murky. “I knew, at most, I had one more
chance to talk to her,” he told me. “I had to figure out how to break
through.”

WHEN BRAINS CONNECT

When Beau Sievers joined the Dartmouth Social Systems Lab in

2012, he still looked like the musician he had been a few years ear-
lier. Some days he would rush to the laboratory after waking up, his
blond hair in a frizzy nimbus and dressed in a ratty T-­shirt from

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 8 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 9

some jazz fest, sprinting past campus cops who were uncertain if he
was a PhD candidate or a weed dealer servicing undergraduates.
Sievers had taken a circuitous route to the Ivy League. For college,
he had attended a music conservatory where he studied drumming
and music production at the exclusion of pretty much everything
else. Soon, however, he began to suspect that no amount of practice
would deliver the rarefied status of drummers-­ who-­can-­
support-­
themselves-­by-­drumming. So he began exploring other careers. He
had always been fascinated by how people communicate. In particu-
lar, he loved the voiceless musical dialogues that sometimes emerged
onstage. There were moments when he was improvising with other
musicians and suddenly everyone would T ON as if they were shar-
Iclick,
T R IBU as well as the audience, the
ing one brain. It felt as if the performers—­
D IS
guy at the mixing board,
FO R even the bartender—­were suddenly all in
T
NO felt the same thing during great late-­night dis-
sync. He sometimes
cussions, or successful dates. So he signed up for a few psychology
classes, and, eventually, applied to a PhD program with Dr. Thalia
N
Wheatley, one of the foremost neuroscientistsU TIO
researching how hu-
R I B
mans connect with one another.
DIST
“Why people ‘click’ with Fsome OR people, but not others, is one of
T
NO of science,” Wheatley wrote in the jour-
the great unsolved mysteries
nal Social and Personality Psychology Compass. When we align with
someone through conversation, Wheatly explained, it feels wonder-
ful, in part because our brains have evolved to crave these kinds of
connections. The desire to connect has pushed people to form com-
munities, protect their offspring, seek out new friends and alliances.
It’s one reason why our species has survived. “Human beings have
the rare capacity,” she wrote, “to connect with each other, against all
odds.”
Numerous other researchers have also been fascinated by how we
form connections. As Sievers began reading science journals, he

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 9 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 10 The Three Kinds of Conversation

learned that in 2012, scholars at the Max Planck Institute for Human
Development in Germany had studied the brains of guitarists play-
ing Scheidler’s Sonata in D Major. When the musicians played their
guitars separately, with each person focused on their own musical
score, their neural activity looked dissimilar. But when they segued
into a duet, the electrical pulses within their craniums began to syn-
chronize. To the researchers, it appeared as if the guitarists’ minds
had merged. What’s more, that linkage often flowed through their
bodies: They frequently began breathing at similar rates, their eyes
dilated in tandem, their hearts began to beat in similar patterns. Fre-
quently even the electrical impulses along their skin would synchro-
nize. Then, when they stopped playing T ON
Itogether—­ as their scores
I B U
R
IST the “between-­brain synchroniza-
diverged or they veered into solos—­
D
FOR ” the scientists wrote.
tion disappeared completely,
T
NO other studies showing this same phenomenon
Sievers found
when people hummed together, or tapped their fingers side by side,
or solved cooperative puzzles, or told each other stories. In one ex-
periment, researchers at Princeton measured the T IONactivity of a
neural
dozen people listening to a young woman T R IBU a long and convo-
recount
DI S
luted tale about her prom night. O R As they monitored the speaker’s
brain alongside the brainsO TofF her listeners, they saw the listeners’
N
minds synchronize with the narrator, until they were all experienc-
ing the same feelings of stress and unease, joy and humor, at the
same time, as if they were telling the story together. What’s more,
some listeners synchronized particularly closely with the speaker;
their brains seemed to behave nearly precisely like her brain. When
questioned afterward, those tightly aligned participants could distin-
guish between the story’s characters more clearly and recall smaller
details. The more people’s brains had synchronized, the better they
understood what was said. The “extent of speaker-­listener neural
coupling predicts the success of the communication,” the researchers
wrote in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in 2010.

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 The Matching Principle 11

SUPERCOMMUNICATORS

These and other studies make clear an essential truth: To communi-

cate with someone, we must connect with them. When we absorb
what someone is saying, and they comprehend what we say, it’s be-
cause our brains have, to some degree, aligned. At that moment, our
bodies—­our pulses, facial expressions, the emotions we experience,
the prickling sensation on our necks and arms—­often start to syn-
chronize as well. There is something about neural simultaneity that
helps us listen more closely and speak more clearly.
Sometimes this connection occurs with just one other person.
Other times, it happens within a group, T IOorNa large audience. But
whenever it happens, our brainsT R IBUbodies become alike because
and
IS
Dneuroscientists,
we are, in the language
O R
of neurally entrained.
01 TF
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

As researchers have scrutinized how entrainment occurs, they

have discovered that some people are particularly skilled at this kind

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 11 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 12 The Three Kinds of Conversation

of synchronization. Some individuals are consistently better at con-

necting.
Scientists like Sievers don’t call these people super­communicators—­
they prefer terms like high centrality participant or core information
provider—­but Sievers knew what these kinds of people looked like:
They were the friends everyone called for advice; the colleagues
elected to leadership positions; the coworkers everyone welcomed
into a ­conversation because they made it more fun. Sievers had per-
formed ­onstage with supercommunicators, had sought them out at
parties, had voted for them. He had even, at times, achieved moments
of supercommunication himself, usually without understanding ex-
actly how. T ION
U
T
None of the studies SieversSread, RIBhowever, seemed to explain why
I
Dsynchronization
some people were better
FO R at than others. So Sievers
T
NOan experiment to see if he could figure it out.
decided to stage

N
To begin, Sievers and his colleagues gathered U TIO of volunteers
dozens
B
I that were designed
and asked them to watch a series of movie
I STRclips
D
OR for example, were in a foreign
to be difficult to understand. Some,
F
OT scenes from the middle of a film, com-
language. Others wereNbrief
pletely decontextualized. To make the clips even harder to follow, the
researchers had removed all audio and subtitles, so what participants
saw were confusing, silent performances: A bald and irate man in
strained conversation with a blond heavyset fellow. Are they friends
or enemies? In another, a cowboy takes a bath while a second man
observes from the doorway. Is he a sibling? A lover?
The volunteers’ brains were monitored as they watched these
clips, and researchers saw that each person reacted slightly differ-
ently. Some were confused. Others were entertained. But no two
brain scans were alike.

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 The Matching Principle 13

Then, each participant was assigned to a small group and told to

answer a few questions together: “Is the bald man angry at the blond
man?” “Is the man in the doorframe sexually attracted to the man in
the bath?”
After the groups spent an hour discussing their answers, they
were put back into the brain scanners and shown the same clips.
02 This time, the researchers saw that participants’ neural impulses
had synchronized with those of their groupmates. Taking part in a
conversation—­debating what they had seen, discussing plot points—­
had caused their brains to align.

T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
02b NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

However, there was a second, even more interesting discovery:

Some of the groups had become much more synchronized than others.
The brains of these participants looked strikingly alike during the sec-
ond scan, as if they had all agreed to think precisely the same way.

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 14 The Three Kinds of Conversation

Sievers suspected these groups included someone special, the

type of person who made it easier for everyone to align. But who
were they? His first hypothesis was that having a strong leader made
synchronization easier. Indeed, in some groups, there was one per-
son who had taken charge from the start. “I think it’s gonna have a
happy ending,” one such leader, known as Participant 4 in Group D,
told his teammates regarding a clip of a child who appeared to be
looking for his parents. Participant 4 was talkative and direct. He as-
signed roles to his groupmates and kept everyone on task. Perhaps
Participant 4, in addition to being a leader, was also a supercommu-
nicator?
N
IOfound
But when Sievers looked at the data, U T he that strong lead-
R I B
ISTfact, groups with a dominant leader
ers didn’t help people align. In
D
F R neural synchrony. Participant 4 made it
had the least amountOof
T
O
harder for hisNgroupmates to sync up. When he dominated the con-
versation, he pushed everyone else into their own, separate
thoughts.
IO N
Rather, the groups with the greatest synchronyU T had one or two
R IB
people who behaved very differently from
D IST Participant 4. These peo-
T FOR
ple tended to speak less than dominant leaders, and when they did
O
open their mouths, itNwas usually to ask questions. They repeated
others’ ideas and were quick to admit their own confusion or make
fun of themselves. They encouraged their groupmates (“That’s really
smart! Tell me more about what you think!”) and laughed at others’
jokes. They didn’t stand out as particularly talkative or clever, but
when they spoke, everyone listened closely. And, somehow, they
made it easier for other people to speak up. They made conversa-
tions flow. Sievers began referring to these people as high centrality
participants.
Here, for instance, are two high centrality participants discussing
that bathtub scene, which featured the actors Brad Pitt and Casey
Affleck:

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 14 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 15

High Centrality Participant 1: What’s with that scene?*

High Centrality Participant 2: I have no idea. I was lost. [Laughter.]
Participant 3: Casey is watching Brad in the bath. Based on the
length of the stare, we think Casey is attracted to Brad. [Group
laughter.] Unrequited love.
High Centrality Participant 2: Oh, I like that! I don’t know what
“unrequited” means, but yeah!
Participant 3: Like, not returned.
High Centrality Participant 2: Oh, okay, yeah.
High Centrality Participant 1: What do you think will happen in
the next scene?
N
IOa bank. [Laughter.]
IB UT
Participant 3: I feel like they are gonna rob
R that! I like that!
High Centrality Participant 1:SITlike
I
D 2: Yeah. I was waiting for some other
O R
High Centrality Participant
TF
NO[Laughter.]
epiphany.

High centrality participants tended to ask ten to twenty times as

N
many questions as other participants. When a U TIOgot stuck, they
group
made it easy for everyone to take a quick
S T RIB by bringing up a new
break
R DI with a joke.
O
topic or interrupting an awkward silence
O T Fdifference between high centrality par-
N
But the most important
ticipants and everyone else was that the high centrality participants
were constantly adjusting how they communicated, in order to
match their companions. They subtly reflected shifts in other peo-
ple’s moods and attitudes. When someone got serious, they matched

* Because the transcript of this conversation is filled with asides and verbal overlaps,
I have streamlined this exchange for brevity and clarity. I have removed trip-­ups,
noises like “umm,” tangents, and dialogue unrelated to the issues at hand. I have
not altered the meaning of anything said, nor put words in anyone’s mouth.
Throughout this book, anytime a verbatim transcript has been edited in this man-
ner, it is mentioned in the endnotes.

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 15 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 16 The Three Kinds of Conversation

that seriousness. When a discussion went light, they were the first to
play along. They changed their minds frequently and let themselves
be swayed by their groupmates.
In one conversation, when a participant brought up an unexpect-
edly serious idea—­that a character in a clip had been abandoned, the
participant’s tone hinting that he might understand abandonment
firsthand—­the high centrality participant immediately matched his
tone:

Participant 2: How do you think this movie will end?

Participant 6: I don’t think it’s a happy ending.
N
TIOit’s a happy ending?
High Centrality Participant: You don’t think
BU
Participant 6: No.
I STRI
D
OR Why not?
High Centrality Participant:
F
6:O
ParticipantN T know. This movie seemed to be more
I don’t
darker than . . . ​
[Silence.]
. . . ​ T ION
U
T RIB
High Centrality Participant: How will itSend?
R DI
. . . ​ O
O TtheFnephew and the parents died or
N
Participant 6: It might be
something like this, and they . . . ​
Participant 3: He’s just been abandoned.
High Centrality Participant: Yeah, abandoned for the night. Yeah.

Within moments of that exchange, the entire group became

serious-­minded and started discussing what abandonment felt like.
They made room for Participant 6 to discuss his emotions and expe-
riences. The High Centrality Participant matched Participant 6’s
gravity, which nudged others to do so as well.
High centrality participants, Sievers and his coauthors wrote in
their results, were much more “likely to adapt their own brain activ-

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 The Matching Principle 17

ity to the group,” and “played an outsized role in creating group

alignment by facilitating conversation.” But they didn’t merely mir-
ror others—­rather, they gently led people, nudging them to hear one
another, or to explain themselves more clearly. They matched their
groupmates’ conversational styles, making room for seriousness or
laughter, and invited others to match them in return. And they had
enormous influence on how people ended up answering the ques-
tions they had been assigned. In fact, whichever opinion the high
centrality participants endorsed usually became the group’s consen-
sus answer. But that influence was almost invisible. When polled
­afterward, few people realized how much the high centrality partici-
N
pants had swayed their own choices.UNot TIOevery group had such a
person—­but those that did allS RIB closer to one another after-
Tseemed
I
Dshowed they were more aligned.
ward, and their brainO R
scans
TF
NO looked at the lives of high centrality participants,
When Sievers
he found they were unusual in other respects. They had much larger
social networks than the average person and were more likely to be
elected to positions of authority or entrusted with T ION Other peo-
power.
ple turned to them when they needed T
to
IBU something serious
Rdiscuss
DI S
O
or ask for advice. “And that makesR sense,” Sievers told me. “Because if
you’re the kind of personO T F easy to talk to, then lots of people are
who’s
N
going to want to talk to you.”
In other words, the high centrality participants were super­
communicators.

THE THREE MINDSETS

So, to become a supercommunicator, all we need to do is listen

closely to what’s said and unsaid, ask the right questions, recognize
and match others’ moods, and make our own feelings easy for others
to perceive.
Simple, right?

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 17 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 18 The Three Kinds of Conversation

Well, no, of course not. Each of those tasks is difficult on its own.
Together, they can seem impossible.
To understand how supercommunicators do what they do, it’s
useful to explore what happens inside our brains when we’re in a
conversation. Researchers have studied how our minds function dur-
ing different sorts of discussions and have found that various neural
networks and brain structures become active during different types
of dialogue. Simplifying greatly, there are three kinds of conversation
03 03dominate most discussions.
that

T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO

T ION
These three conversations—­ which T R IBU
correspond to practical
D I S
R
decision-­making conversations,Oemotional conversations, and con-
O TaFre best captured by three questions:
versations about identity—­
N
What’s This Really About?, How Do We Feel?, and Who Are We? Each of
these conversations, as we will see, draws on a different type of mind-
set and mental processing. When we have a conversation about, say,
a choice—­a What’s This Really About? conversation—­we’re activating
different parts of our brains from when we discuss our feelings—­the
How Do We Feel? discussion—­and if our mind doesn’t align with the
brains of our conversational partners, we’ll all feel like we didn’t
fully understand one another.
The first mindset—­ the decision-­making mindset—­is associated
with the What’s This Really About? conversation, and it’s active when-

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 18 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 19

ever we’re thinking about practical matters, such as making choices

or analyzing plans. When someone says, “What are we going to do
about Sam’s grades?,” our brains’ frontal control network, the com-
mand center for our thoughts and actions, becomes active. We have
to make a series of decisions, often subconsciously, to evaluate the
words we heard, but also to consider what motives or desires might
be lurking underneath.“Is this discussion serious or playful?” “Should
I offer a solution or just listen?” The What’s This Really About? conver-
sation is integral to thinking about the future, negotiating options,
discussing intellectual concepts, and determining what we want to
03b our goals for this conversation, and how we should discuss it.
03bdiscuss,
T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N
The second mindset—­the emotional mindset—­emerges when we
discuss How Do We Feel? and draws on neural structures—­the nu-
cleus accumbens, the amygdala, and the hippocampus, among
others—­that help shape our beliefs, emotions, and memories. When
we tell a funny story, or have an argument with our spouse, or experi-
ence a rush of pride or sorrow during a conversation, that’s the emo-
tional mindset at work. When a friend complains to us about their
boss, and we sense they’re asking for empathy, rather than advice, it’s
because we’re attuned to How Do We Feel?

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 19 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 03c2003c The Three Kinds of Conversation

The third conversational mindset—­the social mindset—­emerges

when we discuss our relationships, how T ION
we are seen by others and
R I BU
D IST
see ourselves, and our social identities. These are Who Are We? discus-

T FOR
sions. When we, for instance, gossip about office politics, or figure
NO
out the people we know in common, or explain how our religion or
family background—­ or any other identity—­ influences us, we’re
using our brain’s default mode network, which plays a role in how
N
we think “about other people, oneself, and the U TIO of oneself to
relation
T
other people,” as the neuroscientist Matthew
S RIBLieberman wrote. One
03d D I
03d1997 study published in the R
FOjournal Human Nature found that
T
NO

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 20 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 21

70 percent of our conversations are social in nature. During those

dialogues the social mindset is constantly shaping how we listen and
what we say.
Each of these conversations—­and each mindset—­is, of course,
deeply intertwined. We often use all three during a single dialogue.
The important thing to understand is that these mindsets can shift
as a conversation unfolds. For example, a discussion might begin
when a friend asks for help thinking through a work problem (What’s
This Really About?) and then proceeds to admit he’s feeling stressed
(How Do We Feel?) before finally focusing on how other people will
react when they learn about this issue (Who Are We?).
N
If we could see inside our friend’sU TIOduring this conversation,
skull
B
we would see—­ TRI greatly here—­the decision-­
and I’m simplifying
I S
making mindset becoming R D dominant at first, and then the emo-
O
TF
tional mindsetNO assuming primacy, and then the social mindset
asserting influence.
Miscommunication occurs when people are having different
T ION while I’m
kinds of conversations. If you are speaking emotionally,
BU
TRI different cognitive lan-
talking practically, we are, in essence,ISusing
D
guages. (This explains why, when
F OR you complain about your boss—­
“Jim is driving me N OT and your spouse responds with a
crazy!”—­
practical suggestion—­“What if you just invited him to lunch?”—­it’s
more apt to create conflict than connection: “I’m not asking you to
solve this! I just want some empathy.”)
Supercommunicators know how to evoke synchronization by en-
couraging people to match how they’re communicating. Psycholo-
gists who study married couples, for instance, have found that the
happiest spouses frequently mirror each other’s speaking styles. “The
underlying mechanism that maintains closeness in marriage is sym-
metry,” one prominent researcher, John Gottman, wrote in the Jour-
nal of Communication. Happy couples “communicate agreement not
with the speaker’s point of view or content, but with the speaker’s

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 22 The Three Kinds of Conversation

affect.” Happy couples ask each other more questions, repeat what
the other person said, make tension-­easing jokes, get serious together.
The next time you feel yourself edging toward an argument, try ask-
ing your partner: “Do you want to talk about our emotions? Or do
we need to make a decision together? Or is this about something
else?”
The importance of this insight—­ that communication comes
from connection and alignment—­is so fundamental that it has be-
come known as the matching principle: Effective communication re-
quires recognizing what kind of conversation is occurring, and then
matching each other. On a very basic level, if someone seems emo-
tional, allow yourself to become emotionalT IONas well. If someone is
intent on decision making, match T R IBUfocus. If they are preoccupied
that
IS
by04 R D their fixation back to them.
social implications,Oreflect
TF
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

It is important to note that matching isn’t mimicry. As you’ll see

in the forthcoming chapters, we need to genuinely understand what
someone is feeling, what they want, and who they are. And then, to
match them, we need to know how to share ourselves in return.
When we align, we start to connect, and that’s when a meaningful
conversation begins.

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 22 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 23

TO RECRUIT A SPY, CONNECT

After the disastrous dinner where he had revealed that he worked for
the CIA and Yasmin had fled, it didn’t seem to Lawler like there was
much hope left. This was his only potential recruitment after nearly
a year of work. He had completely messed things up and was fairly
certain this failure was going to cost him his job. Only one option
remained: To call Yasmin and beg her to join him for one last meal.
“I filled up a notebook with ideas for what to say to her, but I knew
it was pointless,” Lawler told me. “Nothing was going to break
through.”
Yasmin agreed to a final dinner. They T ON to a fancy restaurant
Iwent
where she sat, quiet and on edge, T R IBU the entire meal. Her anxi-
through
ety wasn’t just due toO R DIS proposal, she told him. She was flying
Lawler’s
F
home soon N OTwas nervous and discouraged. She had hoped this
and
trip would reveal something to her, show her how to live a more
meaningful life. But here she was, about to go home, and everything
was the same. She felt like she had disappointed T ION
herself.
U
“She was so sad,” Lawler told me. “So STI RIB to cheer her up—­you
tried
R DI
O
know, little jokes, funny stories. ”
Lawler talked about O
a
T F who had kept forgetting his name,
landlord
N
and reminisced about sightseeing trips they had taken together. Yas-
min remained glum. Eventually, it was time for dessert. A silence
crept in. Lawler wondered if he should try one more pitch. Should
he offer to get her a visa to America for her cooperation? Too risky,
he decided. She might just stand up and leave.
The silence extended. Lawler had no idea what to say. The last
time he had felt this lost was before he had joined the CIA, when he
had worked for his father selling steel components in Dallas. “I had
never sold a thing in my life before that,” he told me. “I was terrible
at it.” There was this one day, after months of discouraging sales calls,
when he had visited a potential client—­a woman running a small

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 24 The Three Kinds of Conversation

construction firm in West Texas—­who was on the phone when he

arrived, her five-­year-­old son playing with blocks alongside her desk.
When the woman hung up, she listened to Lawler’s pitch for steel
joists and thanked him for stopping by. Then, she began talking
about the challenges of juggling work and motherhood. It was a
constant struggle, she said. She always felt as if she was letting some-
one down, having to choose between being a good business­woman
or a good mom.
Lawler was in his early twenties at the time, and didn’t have chil-
dren. He had nothing in common with this woman, and had no idea
how to reply. But he had to say something. So he started rambling
N
IOfor
about his own family. It was hard working U T his dad, he told her.
R I B
His brother was a better salesman,
D IST and that had caused tension

F R honest with me, and so I was honest

­between them. “She’dObeen
T
O me. “It felt good to tell the truth.” He ended up
back,” LawlerNtold
sharing more than he intended, more than seemed appropriate, to
be honest. But she didn’t seem to mind.
Then Lawler returned to his sales spiel, and T IONtold me she
“she
BU
STRI
didn’t need any components, but she Iappreciated the conversation,”
R D
FO there’s another screwup.”
he said. “And I left, thinking, well,
T
Two months later the O
N woman called and placed a huge order. “I
told her, ‘I’m not sure we can give you the pricing you’re looking
for’—­that’s how bad a salesman I was,” Lawler told me. “And she
said, ‘That’s okay, I feel like we have a connection.’ ”
That experience had reshaped Lawler’s approach to sales. From
then on, whenever he spoke to clients, he listened closely to their
moods and concerns and enthusiasms, and tried to relate to them—­to
show that he understood, at least a little bit, what they were feeling.
He slowly became a better salesman. Not great, but better. “I learned
that if you listen for someone’s truth, and you put your truth next to
it, you might reach them.” His goal, during sales calls, became simply
to connect. He didn’t try to pressure or impress clients. He just tried

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 The Matching Principle 25

to find something they shared. “It didn’t work all the time,” he said.
“But it worked enough.”
Eating dessert with Yasmin, it occurred to Lawler that he had
forgotten this lesson. He had been thinking of recruiting spies as
very different from selling steel. But, at some level, they were the
same basic activity. In both situations, he needed to connect with
someone, which meant he had to show them he was hearing what
they were trying to say.
But he hadn’t done that with Yasmin, he realized, not in an hon-
est way, not like he had with the mother in West Texas. He hadn’t
proved that he heard Yasmin’s anxieties and hopes, hadn’t been au-
thentic about himself. He hadn’t shared T ON her the way she had
Iwith
with him. T R IBU
So, once the dishes R DIScleared, Lawler started talking about
were
O
how he felt. N T FYasmin he was worried he wasn’t cut out for this
HeOtold
life. He had worked so hard to get into the CIA, but he found him-
self lacking something, some kind of confidence that he saw in his
N
IOapproached
peers. He told her about all the times he’d clumsily
U T for-
R IB
eign officials, how terrified he was they
D ISTwould report him and he’d
get deported. He described hisO R
F embarrassment when a colleague had
explained that he wasN O T
trying to recruit a KGB officer who was simul-
taneously seeking to recruit him. He told her he was worried he was
a failure just for admitting all this to her—­but he understood, a little,
what she was feeling when she thought about returning home. He
had felt the same way back in Texas, when he was desperate for a life
that mattered.
Instead of trying to cheer up Yasmin, he talked about his own
frustrations and disappointments, the same way she had. It felt like
the most honest thing he could do. “I wasn’t trying to be manipula-
tive,” Lawler told me. “She’d already refused me, and I knew I wasn’t
going to change her mind. So I stopped trying. It felt good to stop
pretending I had all the answers.”

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 26 The Three Kinds of Conversation

Yasmin listened. She told Lawler she understood. The worst part,
she said, was that she felt as if she were betraying herself. She wanted
to do something, but she felt powerless. She began to cry.
“I’m sorry,” Lawler told her. “I didn’t mean to make you sad.”
This was all a mistake, he thought. I should have left her alone. He
would have to report this discussion, in detail, to the agency. It would
be one final embarrassment to cap off a humiliating year.
Then Yasmin gathered herself. “I can do this,” she whispered.
“What do you mean?” Lawler said.
“I can help you,” she replied.
“You don’t have to!” he said. He was caught so off guard that he
blurted the first thought in his mind. T ION
“We don’t have to see each
I BU
other ever again! I promise I’llST R
D I leave you alone.”
FOR important,” she said. “This matters. I can
“I want to do something
T
do it. I knowN O”
I can.
Two days later, Yasmin underwent polygraph testing and training
in secure communication methods at a CIA safe house. “You’ve never
seen someone so nervous,” Lawler told me. “ButU she ON with it. She
TIstuck
never said she was having second thoughts. ST RIB” Once she was back
I
Dmessages
home, Yasmin began sending Lawler
F O R detailing the memos
she had seen, the officialsO T
N the foreign minister had hosted, the gossip
she’d overheard. “She became one of the best sources in the region,”
said Lawler. “She was a gold mine.” For the next two decades, as Yas-
min’s career inside the foreign ministry thrived, she communicated
regularly with the CIA, helping them understand what was happen-
ing behind the scenes, putting context around governmental decla-
rations, making quiet introductions. Her assistance was never
discovered by the authorities.
Lawler still has no real idea why Yasmin changed her mind that
night. In the years that followed, he asked her to explain it numerous
times, but even she struggled to say what had caused the shift. She
told him that somehow, during dinner, when it became clear they

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 26 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 The Matching Principle 27

were both so uncertain of themselves, she suddenly felt safe with

him. They understood each other. She could hear, for the first time,
what he had been trying to tell her: This could be important. You
could make a difference. And she felt genuinely heard. They agreed
to trust each other.
When we match someone’s mindset, a permission is granted: To
enter another person’s head, to see the world through their eyes, to
understand what they care about and need. And we give them per-
mission to understand—­and hear—­us in return. “Conversations are
the most powerful thing on earth,” Lawler told me.
But matching is also hard. Simply mirroring another person’s
N
IOforge
gestures, or moods, or tone of voice doesn’t
U T a real connection.
Giving in to someone else’sST R I B
D I desires and preoccupations doesn’t
T F R
work, either. ThoseOaren’t real conversations. They’re dueling
monologues. NO
Instead, we have to learn to distinguish a decision-­ making
­conversation from an emotional conversation from a social conversa-
tion. We need to understand which kinds of questions T IONand vulnera-
bilities are powerful, and how to makeISour
IBUfeelings more visible
TRown
and easier to read. We need toOprove
F R D to others that we are listening
closely. When Lawler N OT to connect with Yasmin at dinner, it
managed
was more luck than anything else. Afterward, he would spend years
trying to repeat that success and failing, until he had polished his
skills and understood how to make authentic connections.
Eventually Lawler became one of the CIA’s most successful re-
cruiters of overseas assets. By the time he retired in 2005, he had
convinced dozens of foreign officials to participate in sensitive con-
versations. Then he began teaching his methods to other case offi-
cers. Today, Lawler’s techniques are woven into the agency’s training
materials. As one document on recruiting foreign agents puts it: “A
case officer creates an ever-­deeper relationship through the process—­
from becoming an ‘associate’ then a ‘friend’ in the assessment phases

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 27 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 28 The Three Kinds of Conversation

and then moving to the role of ‘sounding board’ and ‘confidant’ as

development moves to recruitment. . . . The agent then can look for-
ward to each meeting as a chance to spend quality time with a com-
rade he can trust with his life.”
In other words, CIA recruiters are taught how to synchronize.
“Once you understand how it works, it’s completely learnable,” an
officer trained by Lawler told me. “I’ve always been an introvert, and
so I hadn’t thought much about communication before I started my
training. But once someone shows you how a conversation works,
how to pay attention to what’s going on, you start noticing all these
things you missed before.” These aren’t just skills she uses at work,
this officer told me. She uses them with T ION
her parents, her boyfriend,
I BU
R
IST store. She notices when her col-
the people she sees at the grocery
D
FOR in everyday meetings: Nudging each other
leagues use their training
T
NO
to align better, listen more closely, speak in ways that make it easier
for others to understand. “From the outside, it seems like a Jedi mind
trick, but it’s just something you learn, and then practice, and then
do,” she told me. T ION
BU
TRI can use. The chapters
In other words, it’s a set of skills Ianyone
S
D
ahead explain how. OR
OTF
N

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 A GUIDE TO USING THESE IDEAS
PAR T I

The Four Rules for a Meaningful Conversation

T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO
Happily married couples, successful negotiators, persuasive politi-
cians, influential executives, and other kinds U ION
ofTsupercommunica-
T RIBThey are as interested
tors tend to have a few behaviors in common.
S
in figuring out what kind ofO R DI
conversation everyone wants as the
T F
N O
topics they hope to discuss. They ask more questions about others’
feelings and backgrounds. They talk about their own goals and
­emotions, and are quick to discuss their vulnerabilities, experiences,
and the various identities they possess—­and to ask others about
their emotions and experiences. They inquire how others see the
world, prove they are listening, and share their own perspectives in
return.
In other words, during the most meaningful conversations, the
best communicators focus on four basic rules that create a learning
conversation:

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 29 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 22alt_title
22alt_title
30 The Three Kinds of Conversation

22b

Each of these rules will be explored in a series of guides throughout

this book. For now, let’s focus on the first one, which draws on what
we have learned about the matching principle.
T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO
The most effective communicators pause before they speak and
ask themselves: Why am I opening my mouth?
Unless we know what kind of discussion we’re T ON for—­and
Ihoping
U
what type of discussion our companions ST RIB we’re at a disadvan-
want—­
R DImight want to discuss practi-
F O
tage. As the last chapter explained, we
calities while our partnerO Twants
N to share their feelings. We might
want to gossip while they want to make plans. If we’re not having the
same kind of conversation, we’re unlikely to connect.
So the first goal in a learning conversation is identifying what
kind of dialogue we’re seeking—­and then looking for clues about
what the other parties want.
This can be as simple as taking a moment to clarify, for yourself,
what you hope to say and how you want to say it: “My goal is to ask
Maria if she wants to vacation together, but in a way that makes it
easy for her to say no.” Or it might consist of asking a spouse, as he
describes a hard day, “Do you want me to suggest some solutions, or
do you just need to vent?”

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 A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part I 31

In one project examining how a group of investment bankers

communicated among themselves inside a high-­pressure firm, re-
searchers tested a simple method to make daily discussions easier.
Within this company, screaming matches occurred regularly, and
colleagues were in competition for deals and bonuses. Disagree-
ments sometimes led to prolonged fights, and meetings were often
tense. But the researchers believed they could make these battles less
fierce by asking everyone to write out just one sentence, before each
meeting, explaining their goals for the upcoming discussion. So, for
a week, before each gathering, every attendee scribbled out a goal:
“This is to choose a budget that everyone agrees on,” or “This is to air
N
our complaints and hear each otherUout. TI”OThe exercise never took
more than a few minutes. Some S RIB would share what they wrote
Tpeople
I
D did not.
R
at the meeting’s start;Oothers
TF
NO each meeting, the researchers studied what people
Then, during
had written, and took notes on what everyone said. They noticed
two things: First, the sentences that people had written out usually
N
TIO as well as a
indicated what kind of conversation they wereUseeking,
B
mood they hoped to establish. They Iwould
S TRItypically specify an aim
D
OR (“hear each other out”). Sec-
(“air our complaints”) and a mindset
F
T
NO their goals ahead of time, verbal argu-
ond, if everyone scribbled
ments declined significantly. People still disagreed with one another.
They were still competitive and got upset. But they were more likely
to walk away from a meeting satisfied, like they had been heard and
had understood what others were saying. Because they had deter-
mined what kind of conversation they wanted, they could convey
their intents more clearly and listen as others declared their own
goals.
Before we phone a friend or chat with a spouse, we don’t need to
write out a sentence about our goals, of course—­but, if it’s an impor-
tant conversation, taking a moment to formulate what we hope to
say, and how we hope to say it, is a good idea. And then, during the

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 32 The Three Kinds of Conversation

discussion, try to observe your companions: Are they emotional? Do

24they seem practical minded? Do they keep bringing up other people or so-
cial topics?
We all send clues, as we speak and listen, about what kind of
conversation we want. Supercommunicators notice these clues, and
think a bit harder about where they hope a conversation will go.

T ION
U
T RIB to ask students questions de-
Some schools have trainedSteachers
I
Dbecause
FO R
signed to elicit their goals, it helps everyone communicate
T
NOand need. When a student comes to a teacher upset,
what they want
for instance, the teacher might ask: “Do you want to be helped,
hugged, or heard?” Different needs require different types of com-
T IONhelping, hug-
munication, and those different kinds of interaction—­
U
ging, hearing—­e ach correspond to a T RIBkind of conversation.
different
S
25 I D
F OR
T
NO

25 con’t

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 A Guide to Using These Ideas, Part I 33

When a teacher—­or anyone—­asks a question like “Do you want

to be helped, hugged, or heard?,” what they are actually asking is:
“What kind of conversation are you looking for?” Simply by asking
someone what they need, we encourage a learning conversation, a
dialogue that helps us discover what everyone most wants.
Most of the time, when we’re talking to close friends or family, we
engage in these kinds of learning conversations without thinking
about it. We don’t need to ask what someone wants, because we in-
tuit what kind of discussion they are aiming for. It feels natural to
ask people how they’re feeling, and to provide them with a hug or
advice or simply to listen.
N
IOfact,
But not every conversation is so easy.
U TIn the most important
R I B
ones rarely are.
D IST
T FOR
In a learning conversation, our goal is to understand what’s
NOothers’ heads, and to share what’s happening within
going on inside
our own. A learning conversation nudges us to pay better attention,
­listen more closely, speak more openly, and express what might
N
­otherwise go unsaid. It elicits alignment by U TIO
convincing everyone
R IB
IST one another, and by re-
that we all want to genuinely understand
D
vealing ways to connect. OR
OTF
N

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 T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 34 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 THE WHAT’S THIS REALLY ABOUT?
CONVERSATION
AN OVERVIEW

The beginnings of conversations are often awkward and fraught. We

need to make decision after decision, at rapid speed (“What tone is ap-
propriate?” “Is it okay to interrupt?” “Should I tell a joke?” “What does
this person think of me?”), and there are lots of opportunities to miss

ION
something or fail to notice what goes unsaid.
T
T R IBUAbout? conversation can begin.
This is when the What’s This Really

DIStwo goals: The first is to determine what

What’s This Really About? has
R
topics we want toT FO what everyone needs from this dialogue. The
discuss—­
O
second is to N
figure out how this discussion will unfold—­what unspoken
rules and norms we have agreed upon, and how we will make decisions
together.
T ION
U
ST RIB start of a conversation.
What’s This Really About? often occurs at the
But it can also emerge mid-­discussion, I
Dparticularly when we are focused
O R
T Fplans, or thinking practically about costs
on making choices, considering
O
N
and benefits. As the next chapter explores, within every conversation
there is a quiet negotiation, where the prize is not winning, but rather
determining what everyone wants, so that something meaningful can
occur.
If the What’s This Really About? conversation doesn’t happen, what
follows can feel frustrating and directionless. You’ve probably walked
away from discussions feeling this way yourself: “We kept talking about
completely different things” or “All we did was monologue at each
other.” The solution is learning to recognize when a What’s This Really
About? conversation has begun, and then knowing how to negotiate
over how it will unfold.

Duhi_9780593243916_all_4p_r1.j.indd 35 10/19/23 12:52 PM

 T ION
U
RIB
DIST
T FOR
NO

T ION
U
ST RIB
DI
OR
OTF
N

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