Geniuses Of Copywriting

Kyle Milligan -Copywriter at Agora Financial

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About Your Genius

Kyle Milligan is a rising star at Agora

To hear Kyle's podcast episode go to

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Full Podcast Transcript
Announcer
Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. A peek into the minds and strategies of
the world's greatest copywriters, marketers and persuasion experts. And now here's your
host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian
Welcome to another Geniuses and Copywriting podcast and it's a real privilege today to
interview a guy who I rst heard about, so many guys will be on this weekly Agora call.
Once a week and on that call, you have had some amazing insights and had some amazing
speakers on there.
Brian
And got some good friends who tune in every week and one guy that I rst saw in there is
for today's guest named Kyle Milligan. He's one of the top copywriters at Agora. I can't
wait to nd out how many millions you've written in promotions. Seems to be over there.
Brian
But what are you talking about on that call was really fascinating. I really wanted to have
my listeners get into that, especially if they're interested at all in copywriting or
persuasion, but not just the same old how to stuff that everyone else teaches.
Brian
You've got to have something with a difference. So that's really exciting to me. So thanks
for coming on the call, Kyle. How are you man?
Kyle
I'm doing great. It's really cool to be here. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Brian
So let's go back to that call. I don't want to keep hopping back to the call. But this is where I
found out some really interesting stuff, which I'm starting to use my own copy now about
the language of copywriting.

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Kyle
Yeah, so I just read that. I'll talk a little bit about how I kind of got into this and how I
gured it out a little bit. So rst, I wanna say what's up copy squad? It's your boy Kyle
Milligan. It's like usual sign on.
Kyle
And to answer your earlier question, I grossed 7.1 million in 2018. So that was how many
sales I brought. And I unfortunately didn't get to bring that home. But a lot of what this all
stems from is when I got to Agora Financial
Kyle
I had virtually no experience and people ask me, how do I get to manage it when I don't
have any experience. Your guess is as good as mine, because I had no experience when I
came in. And one of the things that I use early on, I was told this really quick for the people
out there who always say I don't have enough experience.
Kyle
I basically just use whatever I had in my arsenal, I worked with what I had, I had sales
experience, I leaned on sales experience. I said I really I had psychology degree and Veena,
my psychology degree and history.
Kyle
I brought that up because they were so anti school, the attitude was, you don't really need
a job. You don't need an education to get a job or what the hell was it a degree to get a job.
But use what you have in your arsenal you have experience even if it's copywriting
experience.
Kyle
Like in the door, and I asked the typical question, which is like what book should I read? I've
read the boron letters by Gary Halbert. I've read Adweek, copywriting handbook by Joe
Sugarman.
Kyle
And they're like, No, no, no, no, no, that is plenty. I don't read anymore of those. Stop doing
that. Now read about cut, don't read about copy, read copy. And that was a big turning
point for me.

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Kyle
So all of a sudden, I'm no longer reading about copy, no one reads covering three books
just sitting there reading copy. And, at rst, you don't really understand what you're
looking at or what you're looking for.
Kyle
And I had some help and some guidance on that. But what happened was, is I like to
bingeing like a TV show where you kind of get the plot gured out, and you kind of nd that
the writers are a little lazy
Kyle
You like, for me, it was like The Walking Dead. I couldn't watch the walking dead. After I
binge, like two seasons, I could never watch it again. I was okay, I know exactly what's
going to happen, and how it's going to go down.
Kyle
And it was the kind of the same thing with bingeing all this copy, instead of reading about
how they just said, Here, read all these promos that made all this money. And it's like, oh,
my god, they're just saying the same things over and over and over.
Kyle
And no matter what they were selling, how much it costs, and always came down to like, I
just got to tell you that basically, this is a brand new thing, that it's super easy to use, or to
like basically, I have a system that you can use
Kyle
So those are like the big four points, It was new, easy, safe, and big and big as to be like
something that's like this is going to change the game. Like your whole life is going to be
different after you take advantage of the solution. So that was kind of like the element of
that system.
Kyle
It's just like you place one trade. So super easy mechanism to utilize. And it's safe and that
it's credible, like other people are vouching for this and it's vetted. And the last thing is
that it's very big.
Brian
So new, easy, safe and big.

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Kyle
Yeah, NESB.
Brian
Yeah NESB, sounds good. So that's kind of the thing that looks like the template to apply
to a copy. You touch all those four points. And you haven't had a chance to win.
Kyle
So yeah, it's kind of one of those things where I have to one of the things I'd like to talk
about. It's that people take it very literally and it's not literally what it is, it's the emotional
appeal that you have to make.
Kyle
So the templates are always like, headline, lead, body copy, and then the offer section.
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
And within each of those, like the headline. The headline, I think, is changing these days,
and it used to be that all the headlines of four was in use, urgent, unique, ultra speci c and
useful.
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
And now I'm saying things that don't have any urgency at all, that are doing well. And so
those are kind of evolving the lead, you gotta make your big promise, and you got to hype it
up, right.
Kyle
That's the whole function, lead, and body copy, until you start telling them what you're
selling them as all objection claim proof, bene t, Objection, claim proof bene t.
Brian
Yeah.

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Kyle
That's what every section is, and then use the offering that you're offering, you tell them
what's inside, you offer testimonials, you give them some bonuses, and you sign off, you
said choices,you gotta make this choice.
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
And so what you want to do it within that framework, is you want to, like write the copy.
And you can write it very boring, or factual, which is sometimes I have to just get the
words on the page.
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
But then you want to gure out, okay, I've said all these things. Now, how do I take that
fact? That boring, dry, like, otherwise just piece of information, and make it sound like it's
the newest thing that's ever happened? Right?
Kyle
Then you might take that line as well, in the last three months, we've seen this exciting
trend, or explosive trend and CNBC says, This is the most incredible thing we've ever seen.
So right there, you have, this brand new thing that just happened, the last three months,
it's explosive, it's huge.
Kyle
And even CNBC says it, so if they say it's credible, it's safe, like even the big media outlets
have acknowledged it. And, we've talked about this a little bit before we started the call is,
I don't believe copywriting is so much a how to, I already gave you the How to, like, just a
second ago is headline, lead body copy offer.
Kyle
It's more of a language. It's a language that you speak. And just like if I want to
communicate to you with any sort of English, German, Russian, whatever the language
may be, the words will not always come out the exact same order, right?

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Kyle
It won't be like the new noun, verb, or something like it won't be the red apple. It might be
Monsanto hot, right?
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
So each language is kind of unique. But just communicating this apple is red, or I want to
go get a cheeseburger, or something like that.
Brian
Yeah.
Kyle
So it's not a how to. right? You don't just place this here and then place that there and then
place this here, and then all of a sudden, you're persuaded. You have to know how to
communicate. And that means speaking that speci c copywriting language.
Kyle
And I think that's the whole message I really want to spread is there is no right or wrong
way. As long as the words convey those emotions as something new, easy, safe and big.
You can get a lot of people behind your idea, like you say, It doesn't guarantee a winner, but
it does heighten your chances for sure.
Brian
Yeah, sure. It's really interesting. So where do we go from there with the language of
copywriting? How can we implement that in our copy?
Kyle
I think what I would do is rst,is I would start picking up how other people do it. Joe
Trevor is our publisher at Agora. He always uses this line, give me as he says do ve hours
it's like a blink in line says give me ve hours to chop down a tree and I'll spend four then
sharpening the axe.
Kyle
And it's the same thing with this new technique, it works for you or you want to make it
work for you. Just read a couple of other promos. Basically what that line means
sharpening the ax is doing the research and like sharpening your skills or your wits or like
building up like your arsenal of materials.

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Kyle
So my research process for any promo always goes the same way where I'll nd ve
promos that are selling something similar. I'll read them. And I'll take notes. And I'll throw
away two of those. And then I go super heavy in depth with the last of the remaining three
and like really go line by line, like what did they say?
Kyle
And why did they say it? Now throw away two of those. And then I've got left with my
favorite one, maybe two. And my favorite one I'll model I'll say this is the guy that I want
to be like when I grow up
Kyle
I want to have a sales letter that is as cool as the sales letter. And I'll borrow all the things I
learned from the other four. So if you want to make new, easy, safe and big work for you, I
think one easy fast way to do it is simply start recognizing it in another copy.
Kyle
Because Another thing I preach is like, I'm not creative or clever, I am not a quote quote
with like master Jedi copywriter, I'm just a dude. And that in this works. that's why I like it
so much, you know?
Kyle
So I think that what I would do is I'd nd other examples of how other people are doing it
in my niche for my similar products similar to mine and they're like, Oh, well, that's just
like my product, my product I can explain that my product is new using a similar angle, and
they use it to make sure your product is unique. And you kind of spin it, you know?
Brian
Yeah, yeah. And would you say because you guys at Agora Financial read so much copy. Is
your copy end up looking and feeling different from other people's? Or does that not even
matter?
Kyle
Does other people's copy seem different? What was the question, I don't remember.

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Brian
Does your copy end up looking different? Like if someone was telling you look at your
primer before its launch? And like I mentioned Joe Schriefer, who's the copy chief there, he
would look at everything before it's launched.
Brian
And if you sort of get a gut feeling of its chances of success, to Hey, did you notice
differences between your two different houses? Or does that not matter? Just get it out
there and see what happens? Like a different system for you?
Kyle
Yeah, I can't speak to that. I mean because that'd be what Joe's experience would be. I'd like
to think I do have a bit of a unique look and feel about my stuff. I think everyone does, too.
And I know that when working with copy chiefs, I've worked with all the copy chiefs that
have gone now.
Kyle
And it can be dif cult to like that I've learned that one person can not, like transmit exactly
what they want to see in a sales letter into another person's brain. So when one copy chief
tells me to go do XYZ
Kyle
And I come back having completed XYZ, and he looks at it, he's like, well, that's not what I
thought it was going to look like at all I was like, but this is what she said. And he's like, nah.
Kyle
So that just goes to show that we all have our own unique way of sitting down with the
keys and typing something out and saying what one person was to say one way, we can say
another way, but what I think what really matters is not what you're saying the words on
the page do not matter.
Kyle
I think what matters is the emotion that you communicate, just like we were talking
about, you can say this apple is red, or you can say give me that red apple, or you just at the
end of the day, you kind of get the message across.

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Kyle
And if you take it out of this, how to write copy, like, and the technical aspects, and you
make it about those big emotions and transmitting those your reader. I think that should
be the main goal for everybody.
Brian
Yeah. And that's a really amazing distinction that you made just that. We're talking about
how copy should look and with an experienced expert thinks it has a chance or not. But the
reality, it's about the emotions
Brian
And quite often the person reading the copy is not in that type of market. So if I've seen it
at seminars where they showed two ads for carpet cleaning, and they asked the crowd, you
know which one which headline from phone better
Brian
And the only person who got a chance of getting it right is somebody who needs carpet
cleaning at that particular moment. So it's impossible to go by look or feel. But it's that
emotion that you're talking about there. And that's where it that's the important part
where the stuff you've been talking about today really come through.
Kyle
Yeah, I think it's so huge. I think it's so huge that it's, it's kind of like my soapbox that I
stand on is quit asking me like how to do anything. Yeah, start asking how do I
communicate this emotion? Or how do I rile up?
Kyle
And that's the thing too, because everyone's I think another huge knowledge gap is people
will read like child Dinis in uence, right? And they'll have all these bright ideas for like
mind control. And then, you know, they'll read about the example of the monks handing
out owers at the airport to spark reciprocity. And they're like, How the hell do I do that?
Brian
I don't know, sound attached a ower to the top of the childhood. Good, very good.
Kyle
Dear reader, take a look at this ower.

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Brian
Yeah, that's, that's true. You know, we, this is a problem with, you know, people, a lot of
people teaching copy now and they rely solely on templates. I look at templates as a
product. But, you know, people like my copy mentors avoids. It's always been about the
emotion about the about what the results of what we say in the copier, not what not
speci cally, what the copy actually says. So it's still a brain dominant emotion.
Kyle
Yeah. And we should and not and not to, you know, we're here Pooh poohing all over
templates or anything like that. Because at the end of the day, hey, you know, I laid out a
template that very started this call, you know, headline, lead body templates template in
the discussion and but the emotions are the meat on the bone.
Brian
Yeah. That's the difference between, you know, average copy, which might succeed, you
know, based on a brand like I've written for a few, a big brand marketers recently, and you
could pretty much done a video in your pop in and the catalyst of buy versus copy
using this method.
Kyle
Right. I think for people who don't like know exactly what Agora is, it's just this word like
out there on the internet. But basically, we sell these nancial newsletters. So that in itself
is a chance and that nobody wakes up and thinks, man, I really want to buy a newsletter
subscription.
Kyle
So that's one challenge. The other challenge is, like you said, we don't have a big brand
recognition. We're most famous with copywriters. Like not even like people looking for
nancial publishing.
Kyle
So our gurus are generally guys who like worked on and we get when I say gurus or editors,
right, the guys who we have we have the newsletter for this guy and that guy and that guy
and that guy, and they're generally guys off of Wall Street who know their stuff.
Kyle
But again, they're not willing to have a couple, I'd say household names. We're nancial
where you can lean on that name and that reputation and again

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Kyle
We have to create that credibility and we have to create that excitement around basically
a regular guy trying to sell you a monthly email. That's why Agora i think has gotten its
reputation for being very powerful at copy because that's hard make a stranger want that
Brian
And within the nancial industries, regulations as well so you can make all the claims that
you'd want to and then that sort of stuff.
Kyle
Yeah, that's another cool thing. Another point where beginner copywriters like I there's a
couple things I see on repeats. One is like, I don't have any experience, which is bull
malarkey.
Kyle
Like if you've ever sold baseball cards at your school or something that you do ever Gary
Vee, your hustled, if you ever did like an SEO blog post, you have experience.
Kyle
Brian
What we get out of our nancial where it's not so much the brand recognition, the power
of the emotions in your your copy that's why you've written all this money, millions of
dollars in sales,
The other thing I see is, how much of this Can I make out? Like where am I crossing the line
when I start making stuff up? And I'm you're always crossing the line if you make anything
up it has to be back with research.
Brian
Yeah, true.
Kyle
And we still have to work within those parameters of SEC regulations and legal
compliance and there are a lot of boxes that we have to work inside of.
Brian
Yeah, so I'm excited to to keep going down this path as well. I mean, after I heard you on
the Agora call.

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Brian
I went to check out your website and I grabbed your book while I was there as well and
that's that's amazing. I've got that book next to me when I'm writing promos now so I'm on
the screen anyway because it's an E book version on it.
Kyle
When on video, you can see my face turning red right now, that's awesome. That's really
cool to hear. That's so humbling or honored, that's just cool man. Thanks for saying that.
Brian
I really enjoyed hearing about all the same stuff you've talked about in this call when I was
on that Agora call. I sometimes miss those, if I have to record that one. So what's your
website where people can check your stuff out?
Kyle
Yeah, it's kylethewriter.com.
Brian
Kylethewriter.com, so I'll check a link to that on the site itself. If you're listening on iTunes
go to kylethewriter.com or the info to the book, there's a link to the book there. But yes,
it's worth checking out because I think you have a fresh approach to learning copy
Brian
I think without much speci c copy experiencing sort of came in with fresh eyes and
without a lot of the BS and baggage that a lot of copywriters come in with so and I guess
that's a good thing about that is you can sort of see in black and white what works and
obviously it does for you, so that's awesome.
Kyle
Yeah, that might be a good way to look at it and I have never thought of it like that but yeah
basically maybe coming in with no experience was my advantage, that was my edge.
Brian
Yeah because most of us are up with the standard how to stuff which works to an extent
but we get weighed down with a lot of baggage which we'll never use and probably holds
us back anyway

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Brian
So that's why I'm interested to start really test what we've been talking about in today's
call. So thanks for that. Everyone on the call if you're listening to iTunes go to
kylethewriter.com.
Brian
It's got a lot of stuff there you can get his book so if you want to. I thank you for coming on
the call it's been very valuable. And I think I'm sure that should be dollar signs in this call
for a lot of people.
Kyle
Nice I really appreciate you having me on. This is really great and just love spreading the
gospel right?
Brian
Keep spreading them, man. Talk to you later.
Kyle
Alright peace out, God is good.
Announcer
Thank you for listening to Geniuses of Copywriting with Brian Cassingena. To get the full
transcript in all the resources mentioned on today's show go
www.geniusesofcopywriting.com now.

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