AUTISM IN ADULTHOOD Interview

Volume 3, Number 1, 2021

ª Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.
DOI: 10.1089/aut.2020.29014.njw

Toward a Neuroqueer Future:

An Interview with Nick Walker

Nick Walker, PhD,1 and Dora M. Raymaker, PhD2

Keywords: neurodiversity, neurodivergence, neurocosmopolitan, neuroqueer, autism

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Introduction
In this interview, Autism in Adulthood’s Associate Editor Dora M. Raymaker interviews
Nick Walker about the state of neurodiversity scholarship and practice, past, present, and
future. Nick Walker is a queer autistic professor of psychology, a cofounder of the worker-
owned publishing house Autonomous Press, a longtime participant in autistic culture whose
ideas have influenced the emergent fields of neurodiversity studies and critical autism
theory, and a transdisciplinary scholar whose work explores the intersections of neurodi-
versity, embodiment, queer theory, and transformative practice. Raymaker and Walker
conducted the original interview through e-mail; Raymaker then added citations, format-
ting, and light copy editing.

Dr. Nick Walker

Dr. Dora M. Raymaker: You’ve been deeply involved in the groups. For example, researchers studying autistic people
neurodiversity movement and neurodiversity scholarship since always started from the unquestioned assumption that autism
the early days. Can you start with an overview of the concept of was a medical pathology and that being autistic was inher-
neurodiversity and the movement’s origins, particularly for ently inferior to being nonautistic; this assumption biased and
readers who might not be familiar with its genesis? warped autism-related research in much the same way that
sexist and racist assumptions have historically biased and
Dr. Nick Walker: In the early 1990s, thanks in large part to warped so-called ‘‘scientific’’ discourses about women and
the increasing availability of internet access, a growing num- people of color.
ber of autistic people throughout the English-speaking world This left autistic activists with the question of how best to
began connecting with one another and cocreating autistic describe the nature of our minority status. Being autistic isn’t an
community, autistic culture, and an autistic rights movement. ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or nationality—
The autistic rights movement emerged in response to certain so what sort of minority group were we? Autistic scholar Judy
prevailing conditions: first, autism-related discourse and praxis Singer, writing on this topic in the late 1990s, provided an
was (and still is) dominated by what I’ve termed a pathology answer when she coined the term neurodiversity.1 Just as hu-
paradigm, in which autism is framed as a form of medical manity is ethnically diverse, and diverse in terms of gender,
pathology or psychiatric ‘‘disorder’’; second, this pathology sexual orientation, and numerous other qualities, humanity is
paradigm consistently resulted in autistics being stigmatized, also neurocognitively diverse, and autistics are a neurominority
misrepresented, dehumanized, abused, harmed, and trauma- group. I coined the term neurominority a few years after Singer
tized by professionals and by their own families; third, autistics gave us the term neurodiversity2; it seemed like an obvious
seeking to improve this state of affairs were met with dis- extension of Singer’s concept, and I’m sure others also came up
missal, hostility, and/or violence. with it independently. Another essential term is neurodivergent,
Autistic activists began to recognize that autistics were an coined by Kassiane Asasumasu somewhere around the year
oppressed minority group whose oppression in some ways 2000; to be neurodivergent is to diverge from dominant cultural
followed similar patterns to the oppression of other minority standards of neurocognitive functioning.3

1
California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, California, USA.
2
Regional Research Institute, School of Social Work, Portland State University, Portland, Oregon, USA.

5
 6 WALKER AND RAYMAKER

Neurodiversity, simply put, is the diversity among human d/or poorly served and poorly accommodated by the pre-
minds. For 15 years or so after the term was coined, it was vailing culture?’’
common for people to speak of neurodiversity as ‘‘diversity I’d define the neurodiversity movement as the movement
among brains.’’ There still are plenty of people who talk to shift the prevailing culture and discourse away from the
about it that way. I think this is a mistake; it’’s an overly pathology paradigm and toward the neurodiversity paradigm.
reductionist and essentialist definition that’s decades behind The neurodiversity movement is by no means monolithic;
present-day understandings of how human bodyminds4 work. there are a lot of different ways that people are working to
Mind is an embodied phenomenon. The mind is encoded in bring about this shift in different realms and contexts, and of
the brain as ever-changing webs of neural connectivity. The course there’s some variation in how the neurodiversity
brain is part of the body, interconnected with the rest of the paradigm is interpreted by different groups and individuals
body by a vast network of nerves. The activity of the mind within the movement.
and body creates changes in the brain; changes in the brain Although autistic scholars and activists—and forward-
affect both mind and embodiment. Mind, brain, and em- thinking nonautistic scholars with an interest in autism—
bodiment are intricately entwined in a single complex sys- continue to make up much of the movement’s vanguard, the
tem. We’re not minds riding around in bodies, we’re neurodiversity movement has spread beyond its origins in the
bodyminds.4 autistic community and been embraced by members of other
A lot of people hear neuro and they think, brain. But the neurominority groups such as dyslexics and the folks who
prefix neuro doesn’t mean brain, it means nerve. The neuro these days are described as ‘‘ADHD.’’5 (I’m not a fan of the
in neurodiversity is most usefully understood as a convenient ‘‘ADHD’’ label because it stands for ‘‘Attention Deficit
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shorthand for the functionality of the whole bodymind and Hyperactivity Disorder,’’ and the terms ‘‘deficit’’ and ‘‘dis-
the way the nervous system weaves together cognition and order’’ absolutely reek of the pathology paradigm. I’ve fre-
embodiment. So neurodiversity refers to the diversity among quently suggested replacing it with the term Kinetic
minds, or among bodyminds. Cognitive Style, or KCS; whether that particular suggestion
In terms of scholarship, discourse, and praxis, there are two ever catches on or not, I certainly hope that the ADHD label
basic ways to approach the biopsychosocial phenomenon of ends up getting replaced with something less pathologizing.)
neurodiversity. Sometime around 2010, I started referring to
these two approaches as the pathology paradigm and the Dr. Raymaker: So that’s where we’ve come from; I’d like
neurodiversity paradigm.2 to shift now to talk about where we are. How would you
The pathology paradigm starts from the assumption that characterize the current status of the neurodiversity para-
significant divergences from dominant sociocultural norms digm, both in terms of scholarship and in terms of its
of cognition and embodiment represent some form of deficit, presence in the community, or as a factor in policy and
defect, or pathology. In other words, the pathology paradigm practice decisions?
divides the spectrum of human cognitive/embodied perfor-
mance into ‘‘normal’’ and ‘‘other than normal,’’ with ‘‘nor- Dr. Walker: In academia, the neurodiversity paradigm has
mal’’ implicitly privileged as the superior and desirable state. been generating some rich and vital scholarship across a wide
The neurodiversity paradigm starts from the understanding range of disciplines. To pick just a few recent examples off
that neurodiversity is an axis of human diversity, like ethnic the top of my head, there’s Yergeau’s work in the field of
diversity or diversity of gender and sexual orientation, and is rhetoric,6–8 Savarese’s work in literary studies,9,10 Bakan’s
subject to the same sorts of social dynamics as those other forms work in musicology,11–14 Gratton’s book on psychotherapy
of diversity—including the dynamics of social power inequal- with autistic transgender clients,15 and my own work on the
ities, privilege, and oppression. From this perspective, the pa- intersections of neurodiversity with somatic and humanistic
thologization of neurominorities can be recognized as simply psychologies.16,17
another form of systemic oppression which functions similarly The first Neurodiversity Studies handbook was just pub-
to the oppression of other types of minority groups. lished in the summer of 2020.18 I’ve been rather optimisti-
When we recognize neurodiversity as a form of human cally talking about ‘‘the emergent field of Neurodiversity
diversity, and recognize the pathology paradigm as a form of Studies’’ since about 2012, so it’s delightful to see reality
systemic oppression like racism or heterosexism, it’s easy to catching up to my optimism. There’s going to be a lot more
see that the concept of a ‘‘normal mind’’ is just as absurd and work in this direction emerging over the coming years. As
innately oppressive as the idea that white people are the default one can tell from the recent examples I’ve listed, though, part
‘‘normal’’ race or that heterosexuality is the one ‘‘normal’’ of the intrinsically queer and unruly nature of the neurodi-
sexuality. And the pathologization of neurominorities—the versity paradigm is that it can’t be confined within the
framing of autism, for instance, as a ‘‘mental disorder’’ or a boundaries of a single field, not even a field of Neurodiversity
medical ‘‘condition’’—is no more valid and no less oppressive Studies.
than the framing of homosexuality as a ‘‘mental disorder.’’ What’s striking about all of this scholarship is its vibrance
The two paradigms—the pathology paradigm and the and originality; each of the examples I’ve mentioned, and
neurodiversity paradigm—are as fundamentally incompati- many others I can think of, make unique cultural contribu-
ble as, say, homophobia and the gay rights movement, or tions with the potential to serve as foundations for con-
misogyny and feminism. In terms of discourse, research, and structive and creative praxis. It’s an enormously refreshing
policy, the pathology paradigm asks, ‘‘What do we do about change from the decades of scholarship generated within the
the problem of these people not being normal,’’ whereas the pathology paradigm, which all just boils down to a million
neurodiversity paradigm asks, ‘‘What do we do about the tedious variations of ‘‘what’s wrong with these people that
problem of these people being oppressed, marginalized, an- makes them not-normal, and how can we make them act
 TOWARD A NEUROQUEER FUTURE 7

normal?’’ There’s something innately oppressive and un- Second, we’ll need to train ourselves to recognize the
imaginative about the pathology paradigm, and something pathology paradigm in all its myriad manifestations. The
innately generative about the neurodiversity paradigm. nature of any culture’s dominant paradigms is that they’re so
On the downside, the growing popularity of the term neu- pervasive that they become normalized to the point of in-
rodiversity has led to its widespread appropriation as a buzz- visibility for anyone raised within that culture. This is why
word by a lot of individuals and organizations who don’t so many people fail to recognize sexism or racism when
understand its implications and are still very much thinking and it’s happening right in front of them. Waking up and
operating within the pathology paradigm. It’s far too common learning to see the pathology paradigm is like waking up
these days to see some website or article that uses the word and learning to see any other form of systemic oppression.
neurodiversity and then proceeds to talk about autism and/or When we hear someone refer to autism as a ‘‘disorder’’ or a
other forms of neurodivergence in highly pathologizing ways— ‘‘condition,’’ it should instantly set off the same sort of red
for example, referring to them as ‘‘conditions,’’ promoting the flags in our minds as hearing someone refer to homosex-
old pathology paradigm stereotypes and canards, or rating uality as a ‘‘disorder’’ or refer to an ethnic minority as
autistic people as ‘‘high-functioning’’ or ‘‘low-functioning.’’ So ‘‘inferior.’’ A pathology paradigm phrase like ‘‘individu-
it’s important to think critically and recognize that mere adop- als with autism’’ should register with us as inappropriate in
tion of terminology isn’t the same as actually making a mean- the same way that we intuitively recognize that there’s
ingful shift in mindset. something wrong with the phrase ‘‘individuals with ho-
In terms of the neurodiversity paradigm’s presence in culture mosexuality.’’
and community, it is very much a mixed bag. On one hand, the Third, we’ll need to get a lot better about holding the
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neurodiversity paradigm has been deeply meaningful and lib- boundary that the pathology paradigm is every bit as unac-
erating for many people. And we’re seeing more instances of ceptable as any other form of bigotry. And yes, I’m well
positive and nonpathologizing neurodivergent representation aware that this means rejecting almost all autism-related
in various media—the autistic character Entrapta, in the Netflix discourse and research produced over the past 90 years or so.
show She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, is one of my fa- I’m all for that. Up until the 1970s, nearly all scholarship
vorite recent examples.19 On the other hand, the same problem pertaining to homosexuality framed it as a mental disorder,
that’s arisen in the academic realm is also quite present in the and professional practice was geared toward figuring out its
broader culture: a whole lot of people have adopted some of the causes, treating it, and/or preventing it. Sound familiar? In
terminology of the neurodiversity paradigm, but are still 1960, it would’ve been unthinkable to most psychologists to
thinking in ways that are rooted in the pathology paradigm. throw out every bit of scholarship and practice that stigma-
Large organizations and institutions have a lot of inertia, so tized homosexuality and treated it as a pathology. And yet,
we’re not seeing the influence of the neurodiversity paradigm over the past few decades, the academic and professional
on policy and practice on any large scale yet. I’ve seen ex- mainstream has done exactly that—and the results have been
citing developments on a smaller scale, though, at a more entirely beneficial.
grassroots level of praxis—for example, individual psycho- Today, if a psychology professor at a major university
therapists and other professionals, or small organizations, gave a lecture advocating ‘‘curing homosexuality,’’
making the shift to the neurodiversity paradigm. And again, there’d be an outcry and likely an administrative repri-
there ’s that appropriation issue; neurodiversity is a popular mand. If a researcher wrote an article framing homosex-
buzzword in the tech industry these days, but it usually just uality as a medical pathology and advocating for gay
means, ‘‘How can we more effectively exploit the labor of the conversion therapy and submitted it to a journal dedicated
autistics who are good at software development?’’ There’s to queer studies or LGBTQ* health, it would be sternly
this brilliant sci-fi novel called Hoshi and the Red City Cir- rejected. And yet, even universities that put on a public
cuit20 that explores where that sort of thing can lead. show of embracing neurodiversity are still willing to em-
ploy faculty who speak of autistic people in pathologizing
Dr. Raymaker: Ha! Speaking of where the neurodiversity terms and advocate subjecting autistic children to abusive
paradigm—or the appropriation of it—can lead, that’s a conversion therapy techniques like Applied Behavior
perfect segue into talking about the future! As far as where Analysis—and that same sort of bigotry is still blithely
you think we should be going next, what’s the most pressing published by academic journals and publishing imprints.6
short-term work both in terms of scholarship and practice? This sort of thing will continue as long as we allow it to
continue—and we don’t have to allow it to continue. Overt
Dr. Walker: As I see it, the long-term aim of our work is a homophobia and racism are becoming increasingly unac-
cultural paradigm shift: a widespread supplanting of the ceptable and difficult to get away with in mainstream academic
pathology paradigm by the neurodiversity paradigm. For discourse these days, and that’s a positive development which
those who want to see this happen, there’s a set of crucial began with relatively small groups of people in academia de-
practices we’ll need to cultivate rigorously in the years to ciding that they weren’t going to silently accept that sort of
come: thing anymore. Challenging oppressive discourses is an uphill
First, need to be absolutely clear—in our own minds and in battle at first, but I take heart when I look at how much the
our written and spoken discourse—that the pathology para- academic discourse on homosexuality has shifted during my
digm is nothing more than institutionalized bigotry own lifetime.
masquerading as science, and that it’s illegitimate and
harmful in the same ways as racism, misogyny, and other
forms of bigotry that have also historically masqueraded as
science. *Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer.
 8 WALKER AND RAYMAKER

Dr. Raymaker: Are there any people right now who you autistic youth in collaborative creative processes; this book
feel are taking neurodiversity scholarship to this next level, stands out as an example of what ‘‘next level’’ neurodiversity
or bringing it into the future in interesting or innovative research in the social sciences can look like.26
new ways? What are they bringing to the discourse? In the realm of biomedical research, the most promising
development I’ve seen so far is the study conducted by the
Dr. Walker: The neurodiversity scholarship that’s most Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS)
exciting to me these days is the work that focuses on the on the use of MDMA{-assisted psychotherapy to treat social
creative and transformative potentials of neurodivergence. anxiety in adult autistics. I was a consultant, research associate,
A lot of neurodiversity scholarship so far has had a disability and coauthor on this study, which was published in 2018 under
justice focus; it’s been aimed at challenging the abuses en- the cumbersome title, ‘‘Reduction in Social Anxiety after
gendered by the pathology paradigm, and working toward MDMA-assisted Psychotherapy with Autistic Adults: A Ran-
societal accommodation and inclusion of neurominorities. This domized, Double-blind, Placebo-controlled Pilot Study.’’27
is necessary work, and we still need a good deal more of it. From beginning to end, I insisted that the research team keep
Especially in this present postnormal era of escalating chaos the study free of any taint of the pathology paradigm.
and uncertainty,21 though, it’s vitally important that we not just In terms of grounding biomedical research in the neurodi-
address current problems but also cultivate positive visions of versity paradigm, the MAPS study was exemplary in a few
better futures we can work toward. Neurodiversity scholarship ways. First, there was nothing about it that pathologized autistic
aims toward a future in which neurodiversity is embraced and people or that framed autism as inferior to neurotypicality. It
neurominorities are accommodated and welcomed, but the wasn’t in any way about ‘‘treating autism’’ (an innately op-
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most inspiring and engaging neurodiversity scholarship—the pressive concept that’s central to the pathology paradigm); it
work that’s taking things to the next level—aims higher still, was about treating social anxiety in consenting autistic adults
toward a future in which we engage with neurodivergence in who wanted their social anxiety treated because it was dimin-
ways that unleash previously undertapped creative potentials ishing their quality of life (and importantly, it was diminishing
of individuals, communities, and humanity as a whole. their quality of life according to their own assessment, rather
This is a central aim of my own work these days, which than according to some neurotypical’s opinion of what a high
focuses on the use of transformative embodiment practices to quality of life should look like).
foster realization of neurodivergent potentials for self- Second, we did the whole thing without using the language
actualization and creativity.16,17 Some other notable neurodi- of the pathology paradigm. We never referred to autism as a
versity scholars doing particularly interesting and innovative ‘‘disorder’’ or ‘‘condition,’’ and we said ‘‘autistic adults’’ and
‘‘next level’’ work include M. Remi Yergeau, whose book never ‘‘adults with autism.’’ And guess what? The study was
Authoring Autism6 is a masterful critique of the rhetoric of the approved by the FDA and the DEA{ (one needs approval
pathology paradigm but also extends beyond critique and into from the DEA to use a controlled substance like MDMA in a
exploration of how neurodivergent bodyminds can creatively research study), and eventually published in the very main-
expand and queer the boundaries of rhetoric, communication, stream journal Psychopharmacology, without the addition of
intentionality, and experience; Ralph Savarese, whose work any pathologizing language.
with autistic collaborators in See It Feelingly10 explores how And third, where researchers working within the pathology
neurodivergent perspectives can provide new layers of crea- paradigm would likely have framed social anxiety as a
tive insight into literature; Erin Manning, who examines the ‘‘symptom of autism’’ or a ‘‘comorbid condition’’ (thus im-
nature of autistic perception and its inherent creative potentials plicitly framing autism as a pathology), we made it clear from
in Always More Than One22 and other writings and projects23; the beginning that we recognized social anxiety as a symptom
and the team of Estee Klar, Adam Wolfond, and the ‘‘A of the extensive social trauma that neurotypical society inflicts
Collective,’’24,25 whose work explores the creative synergies upon autistics from early childhood onward—in other words,
that can emerge from the interrelations and collaborations of we acknowledged that the social anxiety we sought to treat was
autistic and nonautistic bodyminds. a symptom of oppression. This recognition of social anxiety as
It’s worth noting that these examples are largely situated a trauma symptom was central to the study: in fact, the whole
within the humanities (with the exception of my own work, reason we thought MDMA-assisted psychotherapy might be
which is in the field of psychology and thus technically falls effective in treating social anxiety in autistics was that previous
within the realm of the social sciences). Of course there’s studies had proven MDMA-assisted psychotherapy to be ef-
other research happening in the social sciences these days fective in treating nonautistics for post-traumatic stress. (By the
that’s grounded in the neurodiversity paradigm (some of it way, we turned out to be right: our study participants did show
published in Autism in Adulthood): research that explores the statistically significant alleviation of social anxiety symptoms
lives, concerns, and needs of autistics and/or other neuro- in the wake of their MDMA-assisted treatment.)
minority groups without pathologizing them. Such research To me, the MAPS study seems vastly more fresh and ex-
is certainly beneficial and we need more of it, but at the same citing than any of the myriad tiresome studies the pathology
time it’s not exactly ‘‘innovative’’ or ‘‘next level’’ scholar- paradigm keeps producing about putative ‘‘causes’’ of autism.
ship so far—it’s work that mostly just makes me think, It’s an inspiring example of the exciting directions in which
‘‘About time’’ or ‘‘At least they managed to steer clear of the biomedical research with neurodivergent populations (research
language of the pathology paradigm.’’ One notable exception with us, not on us) could take, once researchers free themselves
I’ve run across is Peter Smagorinsky’s anthology Creativity from the unimaginative agendas of the pathology paradigm.
and Community among Autism-Spectrum Youth, which bril-
liantly applies the developmental theories of Lev Vygotsky to {
methylenedioxymethamphetamine.
{
exploring the social and educational benefits of engaging Drug Enforcement Agency.
 TOWARD A NEUROQUEER FUTURE 9

Dr. Raymaker: I’m familiar with some of these folks but same way that more and more people are doing with their
not all; this is a wonderful group for me—and others—to genders. I should note here that part of the idea of neuro-
explore more. Would you be willing to push the futurist lens queerness is that heteronormativity and neurotypicality are
open a little further and describe how you would envision a inextricably entwined with one another, and to queer one is
future in which the neurodiversity paradigm changes the inevitably to queer the other to some degree. In addition to
world for the better—what would that look like and what embracing both gender-fluidity and neurofluidity, a neuro-
major pitfalls might need to be guarded against? You can queer culture would recognize gender-fluidity and neuro-
push it as far-future as you’d like. fluidity as being entwined and as synergistically interacting
with one another.
Dr. Walker: Whatever else it might look like, any future In terms of pitfalls to be guarded against, I’d say the big
society that has embraced and been transformed by the one these days is the far-too-common trend toward viewing
neurodiversity paradigm would be distinguished by two neurodiversity through a lens of neuroessentialism, in which
fundamental qualities: it would be neurocosmopolitan and it all people are seen as divided into rigidly defined, innate,
would be neuroqueer. and largely immutable categories or ‘‘neurotypes’’—that is,
Cosmopolitanism is the open-minded embracing of human each person is categorized as fitting permanently into the
diversity. The cosmopolitan individual—or the cosmopolitan box of ‘‘neurotypical,’’ or the box of ‘‘autistic,’’ or the box
society—is comfortable with the vast spectrum of cultural of ‘‘ADHD,’’ or what-have-you, depending on what ‘‘type of
and ethnic differences among people and appreciates and brain’’ they were born with. This sort of essentialism is n’t
welcomes those differences as sources of aesthetic, intellec- much different from the gender essentialism that seeks to
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tual, cultural, and creative enrichment. The cosmopolitan permanently assign each person to the narrow category of
individual engages with diversity in a spirit of humility, re- either ‘‘male’’ or ‘‘female’’ depending on the shape of the
spect, curiosity, and continual openness to learning, growth, genitalia they’re born with.
uncertainty, complexity, and new experience. Such neuroessentialism is inimical to neuroqueering, to
The term cosmopolitanism is generally used in reference to creative neurofluidity and creative hybridity. I’m already
the acceptance and appreciation of cultural and ethnic di- seeing some people criticize or reject the neurodiversity
versity. To be neurocosmopolitan—a term coined indepen- movement, or even the very concept of neurodiversity, be-
dently by Ralph Savarese and myself—is to extend that same cause it’s too associated with essentialism and with sorting
cosmopolitan spirit of open-minded acceptance and appre- people into rigid categories by ‘‘type of brain.’’ But that sort
ciation to the realm of neurodiversity.28,29 of essentialism is by no means inherent to the neurodiversity
A neurocosmopolitan individual accepts and welcomes paradigm; on the contrary, I think that to some degree it’s a
neurocognitive differences in experience, communication, relic of the pathology paradigm that the neurodiversity
and embodiment in the same sort of enlightened way that a movement just hasn’t managed to finish outgrowing yet.
cosmopolitan individual accepts and welcomes cultural dif- Until we do outgrow it, it’s a pitfall that has the unfortunate
ferences in dining habits. In a future society that’s truly potential to derail our journey toward a neuroqueer future.
embraced the neurodiversity paradigm, neurocosmopolitan- I’m not saying that it’s not useful for people to recognize
ism would be the prevailing attitude toward neurocognitive themselves as autistic or dyslexic or whatever. When not
differences among humans. pathologized or stigmatized, such categories can be enor-
Then there’s neuroqueer, a term originally developed by mously valuable. It’s certainly been useful to me to under-
M. Remi Yergeau, Athena Lynn Michaels-Dillon, and my- stand myself as autistic. I’m saying that our conception of
self.30 In the field of Queer Theory, gender is understood as neurodiversity shouldn’t be limited by such categories, just
an embodied performance: we’re trained from infancy to like our conception of gender and sexuality shouldn’t be
perform and embody certain narrow and specific hetero- limited by the categories of male, female, gay, and straight.
normative gender roles. When we speak of queering gender The differences between autistic bodyminds and non-
(or of being queer), we’re referring to actively subverting, autistic bodyminds are very real, and yet at the same time
disrupting, and deviating from the performance of hetero- autism is a culturally constructed category that won’t nec-
normative gender roles.31 essarily last forever or be culturally relevant forever.
Just as the prevailing culture entrains and pushes people A hundred years ago, in the days of Sigmund Freud, physi-
into the embodied performance of heteronormative gender cians and psychologists never imagined that the ‘‘illness’’
roles, it also entrains and pushes us into the embodied per- they referred to as ‘‘hysteria’’ was a cultural construct that
formance of neurotypicality—the performance of what the would someday be regarded as a laughably archaic bit of
dominant culture considers a ‘‘normal’’ bodymind. And just sexist pseudoscience.
as heteronormativity can be queered, so can neurotypicality: Will autism still be regarded as a useful and valid category
we can subvert, disrupt, and deviate from the embodied 100 years from now, or 300 years from now? I have no idea.
performance of being neurocognitively ‘‘normal.’’ That’s But I do believe that the concept of neurodiversity, understood
neuroqueering (or being neuroqueer).6,32 in a nonessentializing way that allows for fluidity and pro-
When I say that a future society that’s been transformed by motes neurocosmopolitanism and neuroqueering, has far-
the neurodiversity paradigm would be a neuroqueer society, reaching implications and transformative potentials that ex-
what I mean is that in such a society there would be no such tend beyond any given system of categorization. I can’t say for
thing as neurotypicality, no such thing as a ‘‘normal mind.’’ certain what scientific research on neurodivergence would
It would be commonplace for people to regard their own look like in a truly neurocosmopolitan and neuroqueer aca-
minds and embodiments as fluid and customizable, as can- demic culture—but if we keep doing what we can to move the
vases for ongoing creative experimentation, in much the discourse in that direction, someday we might get to find out.
 10 WALKER AND RAYMAKER

Authorship Confirmation Statement 15. Gratton FV. Supporting Transgender Autistic Youth and
Adults: A Guide for Professionals and Families. London
Dr. Nick Walker provided the content for this article in
and Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers; 2019.
response to questions from Dr. Dora Raymaker. Both authors 16. Walker N. Transformative Somatic Practices and Autistic
provided light editing to prepare the interview for print and Potentials: An Autoethnographic Expploration. San Fran-
approved the final version. This manuscript has been sub- cisco, CA: California Institute of Integral Studies; 2019.
mitted solely to this journal and is not published elsewhere. 17. Walker N. Somatics and autistic embodiment. In: Johnson DH,
ed. Diverse Bodies, Diverse Practices: Toward an Inclusive
Author Disclosure Statement
Somatics. Berkeley, CA: North Atlantic Books; 2018:89–120.
Dr. Nick Walker is the managing editor of Autonomous 18. Rosqvist HB, Chown N, Stenning A. Neurodiversity Studies:
Press, which has published works of fiction by Dr. Dora A New Critical Paradigm. London: Taylor & Francis; 2020.
Raymaker, including Hoshi and the Red City Circuit that is 19. Hermann B. ‘‘We wrote her that way’’: Entrapta and au-
mentioned in this interview. tistic representation in She-Ra. History Hermann. 2020.
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