STATE OF MICHIGAN

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF OAKLAND

FAMILY DIVISION

DEBORAH ANN FRAZIER,

Plaintiff, Hon. Karen McDonald

Case No: 2010-773215-DM

vs.

RICKY ALAN FRAZIER,

Defendant.

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DAVID E. TAYLOR, A/K/A THE APOSTLE

Taken by the Defendant at law offices of Colleen V.

Ronayne, located at 2055 Orchard Lake Road, Sylvan Lake,

Michigan 48320, on Tuesday, February 10, 2015, commencing at

10:00 a.m.

APPEARANCES:

For the Defendant: COLLEEN V. RONAYNE (P33560)

2055 Orchard Lake Road

Sylvan Lake, Michigan 48320

(248) 334-9938

For the Defendant: GREGORY M. YATOOMA (P68818)

Corporate Counsel 1605 S. Telegraph Road

Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48302

(248) 459-8832

For Third-Party DAVID W. POTTS (P19043)

Witness: 21 E. Long Lake Road, Suite 250

Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48304

 2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 2 Page 4
1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 1 Sylvan Lake, Michigan
2 Also Present: Rick Frazier 2 Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 10:41 a.m.
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: VIDEO ENTERPRISES, INC. 3 *****
4 RECORDED BY: REGENCY COURT REPORTING 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
3133 Union Lake Road, Ste. A 5 record. This is the videotaped deposition of David
5 Commerce Township, MI 48382
6 E. Taylor, a/k/a The Apostle. Today’s date is
(248) 360-2145
7 February, 10th, 2015. The time is now 10:41 a.m. My
6
8 name is Nick Houselander, I’m the video technician.
7
9 This deposition is being taken at 2055
8
10 Orchard Lake Road, Sylvan Lake, Michigan, 48320 in
9
10 11 the case of Deborah Ann Frazier v. Ricky Alan

11 12 Frazier, Case No: 2010-773215-DM in the Oakland

12 13 County Family Division. Could the attorneys please
13 14 briefly identify themselves for the record.
14 15 MS. RONAYNE: Go ahead.
15 16 MR. POTTS: Sure. I’m Dave Potts, I
16 17 represent the witness, Dave Taylor, and these are my
17 18 own clients.
18
19 MS. RONAYNE: Colleen Ronayne
19
20 appearing on behalf of Rick Frazier who is to my
20
21 left.
21
22 MR. YATOOMA: Gregory Yatooma, also
22
23 representing Rick Frazier.
23
24 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Can the court reporter

25 25 please swear in the witness.

Page 3 Page 5
1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 1 COURT REPORTER: Could I have you
2 WITNESS: PAGE 2 raise your right hand, sir. Do you solemnly swear or
3 DAVID E. TAYLOR 3 affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
4 Direct Examination by Ms. Ronayne 7 4 but the truth, so help you God?
5 5 MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
6 6 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
7 7 MR. POTTS: I have a preliminary
8 EXHIBITS: 8 matter.
9 Deposition Exhibit Number Three 220 9 MS. RONAYNE: Sure.
10 Deposition Exhibit Number Four 228 10 MR. POTTS: If I could just make a
11 11 statement. The Court rendered an opinion and order
12 12 regarding a motion dealing with the question of
13 13 privilege that was raised during the November 12th
14 14 deposition. The Court entered an order on January
15 15 28th requiring that the matter be held in the
16 16 courthouse. Pursuant to agreement of counsel and
17 17 pursuant to notice, the deposition is being held in
18 18 Plaintiff’s counsel’s office, certainly with my
19 19 permission and with my concurrence. But just so that
20 20 the record is correct, this is an agreed upon
21 21 relocation of the venue and we’ve -- we’ve done this
22 22 by consent.
23 23 MS. RONAYNE: That is correct,
24 24 although if we run into a problem I reserve the right
25 25 to have it relocated to the courthouse. Do you
 3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 6 Page 8
1 understand? You’re in agreement with that? 1 Q And who’s your son?
2 MR. POTTS: Yes. 2 A Joshua Taylor.
3 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. And that we’ve 3 Q And what’s his date of birth?
4 agreed that we are going to rather liberally just get 4 A The 12th, the 21st, and it’s 2000.
5 this deposition done, and I understand that we’re 5 Q And --
6 going to adhere to the opinion which may be on a 6 A I mean, 1999. I’m sorry.
7 question by question basis when it comes to spiritual 7 Q And who is his mother?
8 matters, but in a cooperative way, and if necessary 8 A Tabitha Taylor.
9 we’ll seek the guidance of the Court. 9 Q Now, you have older children; is that right?
10 MR. POTTS: Yes. It’s my intention 10 A No.
11 to try and live within the scope of the opinion. I 11 Q You live with --
12 read it. We’ve had an opportunity to discuss it. 12 A Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, my daughter Destiny Taylor.
13 It’s clear that the Court’s trying to give us some 13 Q And her mother is Tabitha?
14 direction and guidance but it may be that on a case 14 A Mm-hmm.
15 to case basis we’ll have to see where we go. But 15 Q You have to answer yes or no.
16 it’s my intention to be more cooperative than less, 16 A Yes, mm-hmm.
17 and to try to reason as expansively but as narrowly 17 Q Okay. So you’ve had full custody of Joshua?
18 as I can, that makes a quandary, but -- 18 A We have joint -- well, I think they give her the --
19 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 19 what -- what do the courts say if you got them --
20 MR. POTTS: -- I think we know each 20 custodial custody where -- I don’t know the
21 other well enough that we’re not going to -- 21 terminology for it, but I know that I have -- she
22 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 22 keeps them half of the week and then I keep them.
23 MR. POTTS: -- fight when we don’t 23 Q When you say “them,” who are you referring to?
24 have to have one. 24 A Joshua and Destiny.
25 MS. RONAYNE: Exactly. Okay. 25 Q Is Destiny an adult?

Page 7 Page 9
1 Mr. Taylor, you were here for a 1 A Yeah. Now, she is -- she just turned 18 this coming
2 deposition -- what was the date of -- 2 January.
3 MR. POTTS: The 12th. 3 Q Okay. So is Tabitha Taylor the primary custodian --
4 MS. RONAYNE: What was it? 4 A Yes.
5 MR. POTTS: November 12th. 5 Q -- of the children?
6 MS. RONAYNE: -- November 12th. 6 A Is that the terminology?
7 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. Sure. 7 Q No, I’m supplying some. I don’t know what it --
8 MS. RONAYNE: And we ran out of time 8 A Yeah.
9 and rescheduled it for today, ultimately through 9 Q -- where you got divorced and what language they use.
10 court order, and I’d like to clear up a couple of the 10 A Yeah, that’s right.
11 things that you said at the November 12th deposition. 11 Q But you believe you have 50/50 parenting time?
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 A Yes.
13 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 13 Q And you pay support?
14 DAVID E. TAYLOR 14 A Yes, mm-hmm.
15 SWORN AS WITNESS, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 15 Q How much do you pay?
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 A Seven fifty a month.
17 BY MS. RONAYNE: 17 Q A month?
18 Q Who lives with you at 2008 Victory Lane? 18 A Mm-hmm.
19 A No one. 19 Q Okay. You indicated that when you’re in St. Louis
20 Q No one lives with you there? 20 you sleep at two houses, two different places. One
21 A No. Other than my son. 21 is the Victory Lane that you rent, that’s a rental?
22 Q Well, I mean, he counts. 22 A Mm-hmm.
23 A Okay. Yeah. 23 Q You have to answer yes.
24 Q Whoever the human being is. 24 A Yes, mm-hmm.
25 A Yes, my son. 25 Q Okay. And one was where JMMI rents at -- I’m not
 4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 10 Page 12
1 sure how to pronounce the name of the street -- 1 Q You’ve had barbeques and pool parties at that house?
2 Timpaige? 2 A Yes, mm-hmm, for the ministry.
3 A Yeah. Timpaige. 3 Q For staff?
4 Q Timpaige? 4 A Yeah, for staff.
5 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Do you consider Debbie Frazier staff?
6 Q How much time do you spend at one versus the other? 6 A Yes, she has been on the staff, and I’m for sure.
7 A I’m not sure. I know that we just, you know, the 7 Q What is her title?
8 ministry just acquired that ministry residence now a 8 A There’s no title, we don’t keep titles.
9 little over a year, and so we were preparing things 9 Q She doesn’t have a -- any kind of reference to what
10 over there so I spent more time this past little year 10 her -- well, what’s her job description?
11 of helping that, but the majority of my time usually 11 A She’s basically a volunteer staff like most of the
12 is at the apartment which is my main residence. 12 other people, and they just -- they help in any area
13 That’s my residence. 13 where they can or they’re asked, so there’s no title.
14 Q So you’re saying that the Timpaige house -- what do 14 Q So to be considered on staff --
15 you call that with -- within JMMI? What have you -- 15 A Mm-hmm.
16 A A ministry residence. Residential center. 16 Q -- how much time do you have to spend volunteering?
17 Q Okay. Residential center? 17 A Well, that’s flexible according to each person, how
18 A Yes, mm-hmm. 18 much time they can give, because it’s a volunteer
19 Q And what do you -- have you purchased this? 19 staff.
20 A Yes, mm-hmm. The ministry -- 20 Q Well, I understand that. But -- because opposed to
21 MR. POTTS: He or the -- 21 somebody who occasionally volunteers as opposed to
22 THE WITNESS: The ministry. 22 someone who gets the -- the title of being on staff?
23 MR. POTTS: The evening master? 23 A We don’t have no distinctions like that. The only
24 MS. RONAYNE: Right. 24 thing is any time the person can volunteer for the
25 THE WITNESS: The ministry. 25 ministry, then, that’s, you know, that’s their

Page 11 Page 13
1 BY MS. RONAYNE: 1 contribution as a volunteer. That’s what volunteer
2 Q And you use that as a residential center? 2 means, to voluntarily use their free time to work.
3 A Yes. 3 Q So is every single person who volunteers in any
4 Q And so, when you you’re saying you had to fix it up, 4 manner considered on staff?
5 what were you doing to it? 5 A Not necessarily. They have to come in, say, well, we
6 A Well, I mean, moving again and that kind of thing. 6 would like to be a part of the integral -- the bigger
7 Q Moving what in? 7 workings of the ministry.
8 A You know, just possessions of the ministry and stuff 8 Q Okay. That’s what I’m talking about.
9 like that. You know, when you move in a new place, 9 A Okay. So what are you -- can you rephrase it or make
10 you take things and -- 10 it plainer so I can understand you.
11 Q But people sleep there? 11 Q All right. So she -- Debbie Frazier is considered on
12 A Not necessarily on a regular basis. If I have guests 12 staff?
13 who may come out of town, they may come and I may 13 A Yeah, mm-hmm.
14 take them over there for dinner or something like 14 Q Okay. And so, to have become on-staff she would have
15 that. 15 to come and ask to be an integral part for the
16 Q And do they sleep there also? 16 ministry?
17 A Yes, they have been able to do that. But usually I 17 A Yes.
18 have a hotel for them. 18 Q And it doesn’t matter whether she could participate
19 Q And Debbie Frazier has slept there? 19 once every three months or daily?
20 A No. 20 A Right.
21 Q Debbie Frazier has been there, hasn’t she? 21 Q Okay. Does she have any specific functions, locally,
22 A Yes, mm-hmm. 22 in Taylor?
23 Q With you? 23 A Well, anything that she’s probably told to do, like
24 A Our whole staff has been, yeah. It’s a ministry 24 the other volunteers that -- or that can be done
25 center. 25 through her, yes, you know, that would be
 5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 14 Page 16
1 appropriate. 1 Q So what -- what do you -- what kind of work do you do
2 Q So tell me some things Debbie does for the ministry. 2 there?
3 A The only thing that I’m aware of that she does is 3 A Now, you know, when you say -- doing ministry time or
4 more so ushering or, you know, being hospitable to 4 behind the scene time?
5 the people as they come into the doors. 5 Q Well, what kind of work would Debbie Frazier be going
6 Q But she goes to the Taylor location almost daily? 6 there to do on a daily or weekly basis?
7 A Yes. 7 A Like I say, I think that will be better answered by
8 Q So what -- 8 the person that I have over her because I’m not
9 A That’s the -- 9 involved in all the intricate details of those
10 Q You don’t have -- 10 things.
11 A That’s -- 11 Q You don’t know what Debbie Frazier does there?
12 Q Well, let me just say, you don’t have daily things 12 A No, I really don’t. Other than I know -- I’ve seen
13 where she would be ushering at that? 13 her doing the services when she ushers and doing
14 A No, no, no. Of course not. So those -- that will be 14 things like that.
15 more behind the scene work. 15 Q No, I’m -- I’m not really talking about services
16 Q All right. 16 because that’s really, what, once a month?
17 A So I don’t -- 17 A Well, that’s the time I see -- you know, because I’m
18 Q What is the behind the scene work? 18 basically in most of the time and out.
19 A I really can’t tell you, I honestly don’t know. 19 Q All right. Can you give an estimate as to the number
20 Q You have no idea? 20 of times you have seen or -- not ushering, but
21 A No. Because I have other staff who -- they are 21 personally seen or interacted with Debbie Frazier?
22 running that part of the ministry and they give 22 A It’s very rare. It’s usually in passing, very
23 orders to whatever volunteers come in and tells them 23 sporadically in a service or something like that.
24 what they should do. 24 Q Aside from an actual service --
25 Q Who’s in charge of that? 25 A Mm-hmm.

Page 15 Page 17
1 A Michelle Brannon. 1 Q -- describe your contact with Debbie Frazier.
2 Q Both in Michigan and in -- 2 A Well, I really don’t have any contact with her like
3 A Yes, mm-hmm. 3 that at all other than if I pass and see her among
4 Q -- St. Louis? 4 all the staff and I say hello to all of them and it’s
5 A Yes. 5 -- that’s basically it.
6 Q So how much time does Michelle spend in Michigan? 6 Q So you -- you never minister to her?
7 A Not that much. Most of it is in St. Louis. Our 7 A What do you mean minister?
8 Michigan base is like an adjacent base or you’ll call 8 Q Meet with her.
9 it a remote location, you know, that we are doing 9 A No, of course not.
10 business out of, too. But her main time is spent in 10 Q Well, why do you say of course not?
11 St. Louis. 11 A No, because you’re saying do I ever meet with her?
12 Q So who is in Taylor on a daily or weekly basis 12 Q Right.
13 directing Debbie Frazier with what work should be 13 A But, no, I don’t.
14 done? 14 Q Well, for example, a minister -- or someone may come
15 A Like I say, Michelle Brannon is the one over that. 15 to minister or a pastor or someone they perceive to
16 She’s the one that gives the orders -- allowed to 16 be a minister or pastor, with their troubles or
17 oversee that part of it as well. 17 concerns.
18 Q Even though she’s not here? 18 A Oh, ask for counsel? You -- that’s what you’re
19 A Right. She can call by phone from St. Louis and take 19 saying?
20 -- do that. 20 Q Right.
21 Q And what kind of work happens at the Taylor location? 21 A What you’re referring to?
22 What happens there? You’ve got an office there? 22 Q Right.
23 A Yes. 23 A No, I don’t. Actually, I have people set up to do
24 Q Okay. 24 that.
25 A Offices there. 25 Q And who are those people?
 6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 18 Page 20
1 A Michelle Brannon is really the key. 1 I -- I -- I -- so many places, I don’t remember all
2 Q It sounds like she does everything? 2 of them but these are just some of the places I
3 A Not everything, but she’s really the executive in the 3 remember.
4 ministry that helps keep the -- 4 Q Out of the country?
5 Q Who -- 5 A Last year I stopped my international travel to work
6 A -- administrative order. 6 on TV ministry but --
7 Q Who else besides, you know, I said she does 7 Q You stopped your -- I didn’t -- I didn’t hear you.
8 everything and you kind of laughed and said, no, not 8 A Yeah. I postponed my international travel so that I
9 everything. So who -- who fills in what Michelle 9 could -- well, I was supposed to pick up at the end
10 doesn’t do? 10 of last year but we were doing a TV launching so I
11 A Well, I don’t understand how to share this with you 11 needed to stay in the states for that.
12 other than that I have one point person who 12 Q A TV launching?
13 administrates the staff or the volunteer group of 13 A Mm-hmm.
14 people and they give out the orders, and she has a 14 Q You have to answer yes or no.
15 staff conference call every Tuesday and she gives out 15 A Yes, mm-hmm.
16 the orders that way. So, you know, it may look like 16 Q And what does that mean?
17 it’s difficult for her to do, but really with 17 A TV ministry, a national TV broadcast.
18 technology it’s -- it’s simplified. 18 Q And --
19 Q So your right-hand person, then, is Michelle? 19 A But the year before that, you know, and all the years
20 A Yes. 20 before that I did all the international travel, and
21 Q All right. And besides Michelle, who is the next 21 so I had to postpone most of the international travel
22 person that you rely on the most? 22 to this year -- back to this year again.
23 A Well, she’s the -- mostly the only one at this time. 23 Q And when you did travel internationally where did you
24 Q So you don’t have any contact with any other staff to 24 go?
25 delegate responsibilities or jobs? 25 A Korea, Jamaica -- I mean, not Jamaica -- I’m sorry --

Page 19 Page 21
1 A Well, that’s -- that was the point of making her the 1 the Bahamas, to Budapest, Hungry, to -- those were --
2 executive, to take on all that for me. 2 I think I spent the majority of my time in Korea last
3 Q So you don’t -- you don’t have contact with other 3 year, back and forth there so --
4 staff? 4 Q So when --
5 A Oh, it’s not that I don’t have contact. I don’t -- I 5 A -- I wasn’t --
6 don’t think it’s the kind of contact that you are 6 Q When you go there do you take other people from JMMI?
7 referring to. 7 A Yes, mm-hmm.
8 Q Well -- 8 Q Who goes with you?
9 A Mm-hmm. 9 A Michelle goes. It depends on who I choose to go or
10 Q -- differentiate, then, for me. 10 who she will choose to go for -- so Michelle went,
11 A Well, the kind of contact I think you’re referring to 11 Joseph -- Pastor Joseph goes.
12 is if I’m sitting with them, giving them orders like 12 Q How do you spell his name?
13 that, and I -- I don’t actually because I’m so busy, 13 A J-o-s-e-p-h.
14 honestly, and tired a lot of times, so this is why I 14 Q Who was he? What’s his last name?
15 hired Michelle to come in and to be the executive, 15 A Busch.
16 and I trained her so she could -- 16 Q B-u --
17 Q What are you -- you said you’re so busy. What are 17 A Mm-hmm.
18 you so busy with? 18 Q -- s-c-h or --
19 A Traveling. Itinerary. 19 A Yes. B-u-s-c-h, uh-huh. Then I’ll allow other
20 Q What do you mean? 20 constituents beside this administrative group, like
21 A Ministering. Traveling different places preaching 21 if they want to go on a ministry trip and -- of
22 the Gospel. 22 course, Debbie went on one of those trips and a few
23 Q Can you tell me places you traveled last year? 23 other people went.
24 A Yeah. North Carolina, Virginia, California, Ohio, 24 Q And which one did Debbie go on?
25 Florida, West Palm Beach. So many other places. 25 A Korea.
 7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 22 Page 24
1 Q And when there are these trips, who pays their way? 1 A Okay, great, then that probably Kim.
2 A Normally our ministry take care of it, but the -- 2 Q Okay. So the Koreans donate to your ministry, you’re
3 that’s for the administrative. But people who want 3 saying?
4 to volunteering go, they pay their own way. 4 A Mm-hmm.
5 Q So Debbie paid her own way? 5 Q You have to answer --
6 A I think so, yeah. 6 A Yes, mm-hmm.
7 Q So when you’re in these stateside locations, do you 7 Q Okay. So when you’re stateside, for example, in
8 rent or lease out a church to preach out of? 8 Florida or West Palm Beach, are you saying you’re
9 A No. I’m invited by leaders in different cities and 9 just a guest preacher?
10 countries. 10 A Yes.
11 Q So who would be a leader in Korea that would invite 11 Q And is the goal to get donations?
12 you? 12 A No. It’s to preach the gospel actually.
13 A There’s a number. I was with the Presbyterian 13 Q And do you ask for donations there?
14 leaders there, I don’t remember their names, and I 14 A Yes, we have before, mm-hmm.
15 was with Kim. 15 Q And do you receive cash from these areas?
16 Q Kim? 16 A Yeah.
17 A Apostle Kim. 17 Q Can you name one church you went to in West Palm
18 Q How do you spell that? 18 Beach?
19 A K-i-m. 19 A I know -- I don’t remember the name of the church,
20 Q Who -- who was that? 20 but the pastor I do. Pastor Artrick (phonetic) and I
21 A She is a leader over there that’s pioneered in Korea 21 can’t remember the name of his church.
22 for a long time. 22 Q So where do you physically spend most of your time?
23 Q What do you mean by leader? 23 A I’m sorry. I don’t understand what --
24 A Leader like -- 24 Q In what state are you most present physically?
25 Q Pardon me? 25 A St. Louis.

Page 23 Page 25
1 A A leader or a pastor. Just a pastor. She’s a pastor 1 Q And -- and would second be Taylor, Michigan?
2 over there. 2 A I wouldn’t say that because I’m traveling so much. I
3 Q So when you go there do they pay your way? 3 think most of my time is spent traveling around the
4 A Yes. Actually, they -- well, I pay my own way to get 4 nation and different parts of the world.
5 over there, but they -- they support the ministry. 5 Q All right. So you’re saying at Victory Lane, the
6 Q What does that mean they support the ministry? 6 only person that lives with you there is Joshua; is
7 A They give finances or whatever else support that we 7 that correct.
8 need, the place to stay, hotels. 8 A Mm-hmm.
9 Q So they pay for that? 9 Q You have to answer yes.
10 A We actually pay for it ourselves but they reimburse 10 A Yes.
11 or they’ll give a donation that will cover that 11 Q Okay. And has anybody else lived with you there in
12 expense for that. 12 the last three years?
13 Q Would that be Kim -- C-h-i-m? Chim? 13 A No. I’ve had people help me as the ministry got
14 A Yeah. Chini (phonetic) Kim. 14 bigger, and so I wouldn’t say people just live with
15 Q Pardon me? 15 me but they support it by coming to help me.
16 A Chini. Chini Kim. 16 Q Okay. I’m not sure what that means.
17 Q C-h-i-m Kim? 17 A Well, I mean, just I may have some staff come over
18 A Oh, okay. 18 and they may spend the night here or there, that kind
19 Q Chim Kim? 19 of thing, and help me out whatever I need for to get
20 A Yeah, yeah. 20 out of town or something like that.
21 Q Is that who that is? 21 Q You described the Victory Lane place as a very small
22 A I think -- yeah. Is that how it is -- 22 apartment.
23 Q That -- 23 A Mm-hmm. Yeah, a two bedroom.
24 A -- spelled there? 24 Q Okay. So you’re saying you have staff that come and
25 Q Yes. 25 spend the night there?
 8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 26 Page 28
1 A Well, they will if they have to if I’ve got to -- I 1 why it looks that, but that is not current. This is
2 got to get out of town the next day and we’re taking 2 what I know that the ministry rents out in our own
3 care of business and things like that, so it’s -- 3 name. Mm-hmm.
4 it’s -- it’s -- I wouldn’t say that they just stay 4 Q So can you give a timeframe for when the South
5 there, you know. 5 Branridge Road house was used?
6 Q Is there anybody that spends more than two nights in 6 A I can’t. I’m -- I’m not sure of that.
7 a row there? 7 Q All right. But is it your testimony that it has no
8 A No. 8 relationship to JMMI or you at this point?
9 Q What is JMMI’s relationship to the property at 11833 9 A No.
10 South Branridge Road in St. Louis? 10 Q Is it your testimony that --
11 A Say that again. I’m sorry. 11 A Yes. No, no, it doesn’t. I don’t --
12 Q The property at 11833 South Branridge Road in St. 12 Q It has no relationship to you?
13 Louis, you’re aware of that property? 13 A No, no.
14 A I’m not by the address. If you will give me a little 14 Q Now, this one on Trail Oaks, that’s the one you
15 bit more information which one. 15 referred to as the ministry house where you didn’t
16 Q Well, I’ll show you a picture of the house. 16 know the address before?
17 A Okay. 17 A Right, mm-hmm. I don’t.
18 Q I guess if that’s called a house. 18 Q Is this in a residential area?
19 A Yes. 19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Is that familiar to you? 20 Q And do you own this house?
21 A Oh, yeah, the ministry. That’s the ministry. It’s 21 A No. We’re leasing it.
22 -- that don’t even look like the house there. That 22 Q You lease. And what happens at this house?
23 don’t look like the -- yeah, that’s why I’m not 23 A Well --
24 knowledgeable -- knowledgeable that -- 24 Q It’s purpose?
25 Q JMMI -- 25 A Well, I think I shared last time, it’s a place where

Page 27 Page 29
1 A Yeah. 1 I allow those who may be volunteering and they come
2 Q -- is listed under them? 2 to the city to want to work for the ministry, and so
3 A Yeah. But that -- we probably use that like for a 3 they may not have a place to stay so I’ll allow them
4 start-up place for -- I can’t -- this was -- this is 4 to stay there if they want or if they need that, you
5 not where we are now. I -- I -- I can’t say. I 5 know, maybe one or two people. But it’s also a place
6 don’t know what place that is. I don’t know if that 6 where we have done like -- in St. Louis it’s one of
7 was just -- that really don’t look like the -- the 7 our start-up places until we build the facilities
8 house that we currently have as the ministry. I 8 that we are saving money for.
9 don’t -- 9 Q What do you mean start-up?
10 Q You don’t know? 10 A Well, like, you know a small business start in
11 A No. I mean, that -- that don’t look like the 11 garages, that kind of thing. Yeah.
12 location we have now. 12 Q Do you hold meetings there?
13 Q Do you have more than one ministry house? 13 A No, mm-uh.
14 A We have just one, that’s it, other than the 14 Q And this was in a residential -- it looks almost like
15 residential center that’s on Timpaige. We have one 15 a sub -- a subdivision kind of house?
16 other -- 16 A Mm-hmm.
17 Q Have you ever had more than one simultaneously with 17 Q You have to answer yes or no.
18 another? 18 A Yes, mm-hmm.
19 A Not really, no. 19 Q All right. And the subdivision allows you to run a
20 Q Is the house that’s 5209 Trail Oaks Drive, Black 20 ministry out of that house?
21 Jack, Missouri, is that -- 21 A Well, actually we’ve talked with them and it’s not
22 A Yeah, this is the one here. Yeah. 22 wrong that we are -- because we’re not doing no kind
23 Q So are you saying that at some time you may have used 23 of big operation out of it, it’s just like a start-up
24 the South Branridge home but you don’t currently? 24 business like many American companies start in
25 A Yeah, right. Maybe that’s what happened and that’s 25 garages here in this country.
 9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 30 Page 32
1 Q So when Debbie Frazier goes to St. Louis -- 1 Q I’m trying to figure out what the purpose of this
2 A Mm-hmm. 2 location is, and your -- is it your testimony that
3 Q -- does she stay at this residence? 3 this is an office where people go to work for JMMI?
4 A Not that -- no, not that I know of. I’m not positive 4 A Yeah. I mean, the only way -- I’m trying to explain
5 about that. I don’t -- I don’t think there’s room 5 to you what it is. Do you understand what a small
6 there for that. 6 business is in America?
7 Q What do you mean there’s not room? 7 Q Sir, that -- that’s not -- you don’t get --
8 A Room to stay there like that. 8 A Well, I’m trying to answer your question. If you
9 Q I thought you said you allowed people to stay there? 9 don’t listen to what I’m saying, then, you’re not --
10 A Yeah, I said, you know, if there’s room or -- but I 10 Q This is not a dialogue. I ask you questions and you
11 don’t think there’s room for nothing like that. 11 respond.
12 Q Okay. So what do you -- 12 A I’m answering them.
13 A I’m sure she may get a hotel when she’s in town. I 13 MR. POTTS: Do the best you can to
14 don’t know. But she -- it would be good if you could 14 answer the question. If you don’t understand the
15 ask Michelle because she deals with that. 15 question, you have to just -- if you don’t answer
16 Q So what is that place used for? What’s the 16 it --
17 residential used for if people don’t stay there? 17 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
18 A Well, I just shared what it’s used for. That it’s, 18 MR. POTTS: -- that’s one thing.
19 you know, one of our start-up locations to help the 19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 ministry save money as an overhead until we build 20 MR. POTTS: But you have to answer the
21 what we’re going to build there as the global 21 question that’s asked of you to --
22 headquarters. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 Q And so what happens at that residential house? 23 MR. POTTS: -- to the best of your
24 People don’t stay there. You said Debbie Frazier 24 ability.
25 doesn’t stay there. I thought it was for volunteers 25 THE WITNESS: And I’m answering the

Page 31 Page 33
1 to stay. So what do people go to that house to do? 1 only way I know to explain to you what we’re doing is
2 A Well, there are computers there that, you know, they 2 like a small business out of a garage.
3 just do minimum work, tasks to organize the ministry 3 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
4 or answer phones or stuff like that. 4 BY MS. RONAYNE:
5 Q It’s a work center? 5 Q So is it --
6 A I wouldn’t call it a work center. It’s more of a 6 MR. POTTS: That’s -- that’s an
7 start-up place like -- like a small business -- you 7 analogy. You can tell him, do you answer the phones?
8 know, like a small business that Americans do, they 8 Do you greet the greeters?
9 start up in the garage. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I just --
10 Q I -- I know, you keep saying that. But what is it 10 MR. POTTS: Do you send out mail?
11 that happens in there? Is it -- it’s work -- 11 Whatever you do.
12 A Yeah. 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
13 Q -- is that what you’re saying? 13 MR. POTTS: Things like that. What do
14 A It’s volunteer work, yeah. You could do -- you could 14 you do there?
15 say that. Every -- 15 BY MS. RONAYNE:
16 Q Okay. So it’s like an office? 16 Q So it’s an office?
17 A Almost, yeah, like a start-up. It’s the same thing 17 A I do -- we do minimum office work or answer phones.
18 of a small American company in a garage. 18 Q So it’s an office?
19 Q Okay. I’m not interested in small American 19 A I guess, if that’s what you want to call it. I don’t
20 companies. 20 know what --
21 A I’m just telling you -- 21 Q No. It’s not what I want to call it.
22 Q Sir. 22 A What --
23 A Yeah. 23 Q I’m trying to get a handle on --
24 Q We have to not talk at the same time. 24 A Well, that’s not what we call it so I -- I can’t -- I
25 A Okay, mm-hmm. 25 can’t --
 10 (Pages 34 to 37)
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1 Q What do you call it? 1 basis?
2 A I call it a start-up place. 2 A No.
3 Q Go to the start-up place -- 3 Q Are they staff members?
4 A Okay. 4 A They would be volunteers, yes. Yes. Someone who
5 Q -- is that what you say? 5 needs a place to stay.
6 A Yeah -- no, I don’t say that. I just call it a place 6 Q Was JMMI paying any of your auto expenses?
7 where -- you know, we don’t have a name for it. We 7 A Yes.
8 just know what we are doing with the place so. 8 Q And how much?
9 Q All right. When you are talking about somebody being 9 A Auto expenses? I wouldn’t -- I wouldn’t know exactly
10 there, how do you refer to this location? 10 how much.
11 A What do you mean? 11 Q You don’t know how much you got?
12 Q What do you call it, go to the office? Go to -- what 12 A No.
13 do you say? What do you refer to this place as? 13 Q Who would know?
14 A Well, we surely don’t call it an office. We just -- 14 A The board takes care of that.
15 we call it a house, you know, go to the place. 15 Q Who’s the board?
16 Q Go to the place? 16 A You can ask Michelle. She’s another person to refer
17 A House. Yeah, mm-hmm. 17 to.
18 Q But is there any activity that goes on at that house 18 Q What about your housing, does JMMI pay any of that?
19 that is not, in essence, office work for the 19 A Yes, mm-hmm.
20 ministry? 20 Q You get a housing allowance?
21 A No, not that I know of. No. 21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. So it’s an office where people are phone 22 Q And how much is that?
23 calling, doing mail; is that what you’re saying? 23 A I’m not sure.
24 A Yeah. Some of that takes place, yes. 24 Q And do you report these allowances as compensation on
25 Q Okay. And what else takes place? 25 your tax return?

Page 35 Page 37
1 A That’s it. That’s all I know for that, honestly. 1 A Honestly, I don’t know how all that work. I have
2 Q Because you’ve been there? 2 other people who does -- do that so you can refer to
3 A Yes, mm-hmm. That’s why I know what goes on. 3 Michelle all that.
4 Q When Debbie Frazier goes to St. Louis to do work for 4 Q Michelle does your taxes?
5 the ministry, is that where she goes? 5 A No. I have other people do it, but she’s over a lot
6 A She has been there, yes. 6 of that, the financial aspect, too.
7 Q Where else would she go to do work for the ministry 7 Q So who does your taxes?
8 other than this location? 8 A I -- some firm. I -- I don’t know. I have a
9 A That’s the only place I know she goes from my 9 financial board that Michelle runs and they have all
10 understanding. 10 that so you can ask her.
11 Q Are there any people who sleep at this house 11 Q So does she handle your personal finances in addition
12 regularly? 12 to JMMI’s finances?
13 A Yes, there are people that do sleep there. 13 A Yes, all of it.
14 Q Who is that? 14 Q Your personal and JMMI’s?
15 A Honestly, I don’t know those, you know, know who 15 A Yes.
16 does. It’s kind of -- 16 Q On the November 11th, 2014, JMMI Balance Sheet that
17 Q You have no idea who sleeps there? 17 you produced at your last deposition, that lists over
18 A No. So -- but you can ask Michelle, she should know 18 a million dollars as an asset labeled Collectibles.
19 those answers. 19 A Mm-hmm.
20 Q Do you know how many sleep there? 20 Q You have to answer yes.
21 A No. 21 A Yes, mm-hmm.
22 Q Are -- and this is a three-bedroom house? 22 Q And, What are those?
23 A Actually, I really don’t know how many bedrooms it 23 A Well, those collectibles that a donator, who donated
24 is. 24 over a million dollars in collectibles to the
25 Q And you don’t know who sleeps there on a regular 25 ministry. So it -- it comprises of all these
 11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 38 Page 40
1 different things that -- that values to that much. 1 MS. RONAYNE: Well, can’t you --
2 Q What kind of things? 2 MR. FRAZIER: It’s on the Balance
3 A Old toys, you know, stuff like that. Collectibles, 3 Sheet. It’s on the 990 which are public documents.
4 you know, the old things that people would spend 4 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. It’s on public
5 certain amounts of money for. 5 documents that the ministry has to file.
6 Q Is this an antique collector or something? 6 MR. POTTS: Well, if they’ve been
7 A Not an antique -- I don’t remember antiques. But 7 filed, that’s one thing.
8 baseball cards, you know, that’s -- things like that. 8 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah, it’s on their
9 Barbie dolls. 9 Balance Sheet, 2014.
10 Q Where are those things located? 10 MR. POTTS: Well, they don’t have to
11 A They’re in St. Louis. 11 file their Balance Sheet.
12 Q Where? 12 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. They have to file
13 A In -- I thought they were in a storage place. 13 their -- their financial information with the IRS,
14 They’re in a storage place. 14 and there’s --
15 Q And what’s the plan for those? 15 MR. POTTS: Well, they -- it depends.
16 A Oh, to liquidate that and -- for the ministry. 16 They have to file certain information with the
17 Q Well, who’s the person donated that? 17 return.
18 MR. POTTS: Objection. 18 MS. RONAYNE: Which includes donors.
19 MS. RONAYNE: We have an order that 19 MR. POTTS: Well --
20 he is required to disclose anybody that’s over 20 MS. RONAYNE: I can tell you the
21 $5,000. 21 November 12th, 2014, order covers only individuals
22 MR. POTTS: Can I see that? 22 who donate less than $5,000.
23 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah, but it will take 23 MR. POTTS: Well, if they’re required
24 -- I’ll forget it and then -- mm-hmm? 24 to file --
25 MR. POTTS: I have (inaudible) 25 MS. RONAYNE: He’s required to produce

Page 39 Page 41
1 objection. 1 the --
2 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah, what is the 2 MR. POTTS: If the entity -- no,
3 objection. 3 that’s not my --
4 MR. POTTS: Well, first of all it may 4 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah.
5 be -- it may be privileged. It may be somebody 5 MR. POTTS: -- my objection. My
6 else’s identification of who they are, so to the 6 objection is: If they are required -- if the
7 extent that it’s public, I have no problem. 7 ministry’s required to file any kind of forms, state,
8 MS. RONAYNE: It has to be public 8 federal, or otherwise, then I have no objection.
9 because it’s -- 9 MS. RONAYNE: It -- they are.
10 MR. POTTS: If it’s already been -- 10 MR. POTTS: All right. Now I need to
11 MS. RONAYNE: -- a charity. 11 see the scope of the order so that it defines what
12 MR. POTTS: -- publicized and 12 has to be produced. Just --
13 reported, that’s one thing. If it’s not, then, 13 MS. RONAYNE: Any -- it all has to be
14 that’s another question. I -- I just need to see it. 14 produced.
15 MS. RONAYNE: It has to be reported 15 MR. POTTS: Just because the Court
16 with the charity because they have to -- 16 decides it wants to order something to be produced,
17 MR. POTTS: But I don’t know that it 17 doesn’t mean that it’s appropriate. It --
18 has been, so I just -- I just need to know. 18 MS. RONAYNE: But a court order is a
19 BY MS. RONAYNE: 19 court order.
20 Q When did you receive these? Well, it’s on there. 20 MR. POTTS: No. Yeah. But --
21 2014. 21 MS. RONAYNE: It’s a court order.
22 MR. POTTS: It could be on a P&L, it 22 MR. POTTS: It is as far as --
23 could be a -- it could be somehow disclosed, being 23 MS. RONAYNE: If he has to disclose --
24 held by another entity. I just need to know what the 24 or JMMI has to disclose who their donors are, so
25 scope of this is because -- 25 that’s what I’m asking: Who’s the donor?
 12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 42 Page 44
1 MR. POTTS: Well, first of all this is 1 MR. POTTS: No, he’s represented on it
2 the witness. He’s not JMMI. 2 as well.
3 MS. RONAYNE: He -- for all intents 3 MS. RONAYNE: Well, if the order says
4 and purposes, he is JMMI. 4 that the only thing it protects are people that are
5 MR. POTTS: But he’s not. He’s not. 5 under 5,000 because they don’t have to be named,
6 MS. RONAYNE: He’s the president and 6 people that are over 5,000 get named.
7 CEO. 7 MR. POTTS: To the extent that they
8 MR. POTTS: Okay. We’ll allow this 8 have been disclosed in a form filed federally, then I
9 because this -- the order requires it not be 9 have no objection.
10 disseminated. 10 MS. RONAYNE: That’s -- that’s what
11 MS. RONAYNE: No, it only -- I can 11 happens if you do over five.
12 only not disseminate -- 12 MR. POTTS: To the extent that they
13 MR. POTTS: This information -- 13 have done that. I have no objection if they’ve been
14 MS. RONAYNE: -- the less than $5,000. 14 previously required to do -- forward to the federal
15 MR. POTTS: -- cannot be disseminated 15 government, state agency, or any reporting agency.
16 by defendant until -- it says this -- until further 16 MS. RONAYNE: This protective order --
17 order of the court, period. 17 MR. POTTS: Well, that’s if they did.
18 MS. RONAYNE: Let me read the whole 18 MS. RONAYNE: -- only refers to 5,000
19 thing, that’s not what it says. 19 and less donors. Otherwise --
20 MR. POTTS: Well, it says this 20 MR. POTTS: I see that.
21 information referring to the amount of the 21 MS. RONAYNE: -- it’s not protected.
22 definition. 22 MR. POTTS: Well, then, the objection
23 MS. RONAYNE: It says the protective 23 would only be to the extent that these have been
24 order shall be applicable to govern any and all 24 previously disclosed and they’re there, then, I have
25 information -- things that obtained, received, or 25 no objection --

Page 43 Page 45
1 regarding individuals who donate less than five. You 1 MS. RONAYNE: Well --
2 still have to supply it, but it will not be 2 MR. POTTS: -- to him answering the
3 disseminated. Only -- 3 question if he knows the information.
4 MR. POTTS: Okay. Fine. 4 MS. RONAYNE: I don’t know if he has
5 MS. RONAYNE: Only less than five. 5 filed 2014 returns and --
6 MR. POTTS: That’s my point. 6 MR. POTTS: I -- I don’t --
7 MS. RONAYNE: So if he’s over five, 7 MS. RONAYNE: -- he’s going to have to
8 it’s public information. 8 and disclose them.
9 MR. POTTS: It doesn’t say -- if it’s 9 MR. POTTS: -- know that yet, but I
10 public information. 10 know you got -- I believe you got ’12 and ’13. I
11 MS. RONAYNE: It is. 11 don’t know the Court’s --
12 MR. POTTS: Look, I need to know that. 12 MS. RONAYNE: It’s on their balance
13 I need to see that -- 13 sheet which we’ll -- I don’t think that there’s any
14 MS. RONAYNE: It’s reported on the tax 14 privilege. I don’t think that there’s any legitimate
15 returns who their donors are if they’re over five. 15 objection to it. The order covers only people with
16 MR. YATOOMA: If I can intermit. 16 less than five because they don’t have to be named or
17 MR. POTTS: Yeah. 17 given statements.
18 MR. YATOOMA: The IRS 990 requires 18 MR. POTTS: This is what I don’t want
19 charities -- 19 to do. I don’t want to go back and fight the war
20 MR. POTTS: I know what a 990 is and I 20 that apparently was or was not fought over disclosure
21 don’t represent he had any, that’s my concern. I 21 over what I think are irrelevant. It’s irrelevant
22 don’t -- Mr. Colon represents the entity, and to the 22 information. But I’m not going to fight that.
23 extent he has an objection on the 990 -- 23 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
24 MS. RONAYNE: Is he representing me on 24 MR. POTTS: I do want to make sure,
25 it? I thought that was just for show? 25 though, if you ask a question, that there’s already
 13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 46 Page 48
1 been a disclosure -- a public disclosure of the form 1 status. It’s a life --
2 -- it can be -- it could be a 990, it could be any 2 MS. RONAYNE: Right.
3 kind of mandated requirement that he or the entity -- 3 MR. POTTS: -- entity. He is an
4 not he, but the entity -- has to file because of its 4 individual here --
5 charitable status. I think it’s probably a not-for- 5 MS. RONAYNE: That’s true.
6 profit corporation. He files under some sort of 6 MR. POTTS: -- subject to subpoena.
7 charitable designation as to the federal agency -- 7 MS. RONAYNE: Who also is a CEO.
8 MS. RONAYNE: And they have to list 8 MR. POTTS: But he’s not --
9 them. 9 MS. RONAYNE: Of JMMI.
10 MR. POTTS: -- and they have to file 10 MR. POTTS: -- here in that capacity.
11 forms. If those are filed, then I have no objection 11 MS. RONAYNE: We didn’t differentiate
12 to the question. 12 what his capacity was.
13 MS. RONAYNE: Well, they’re going to 13 MR. POTTS: Well, you should have
14 be if they haven’t, so I don’t -- 14 because --
15 MR. POTTS: If they haven’t been, then 15 MS. RONAYNE: But I didn’t.
16 they -- you know, they can’t talk about something 16 MR. POTTS: Well --
17 that will be that hasn’t been done, hasn’t been 17 MS. RONAYNE: Nobody cared.
18 published. 18 MR. POTTS: I care.
19 MS. RONAYNE: But there’s no -- 19 MS. RONAYNE: You may but it hasn’t
20 MR. FRAZIER: He produced the last 20 happened so far.
21 balance sheet. They disclosed it so produce that. 21 MR. POTTS: Well, I’m caring and
22 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. I’m not -- there 22 making an objection --
23 isn’t a basis for your objection. It’s not 23 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
24 privileged. It’s not subject to a protective order. 24 MR. POTTS: -- that he’s not the real
25 I understand you don’t like it, but I don’t see that 25 -- the party to be -- he’s the witness. He is a

Page 47 Page 49
1 it’s not answerable. 1 witness. The entity can be brought here, if it could
2 MR. POTTS: Well, I can make a 2 be, or a deposition could be taken or documents
3 relevancy objection and then I could let you take it. 3 produced pursuant to something commonly referred to
4 MS. RONAYNE: Then he’s -- right. Go 4 like in Purgatory -- in Missouri. If you want to
5 ahead and object and let me take the answer. 5 bring that entity before some sort of body to get
6 MR. POTTS: Will you let me have a 6 orders and get information from him. If Mr. Poling
7 continuing relevancy objection to the form of the 7 were here, maybe he would or would not have had an
8 question, objection, or do I have to make it every 8 objection. If he’s not the entity even though he may
9 time you ask him. 9 be an officer of it, it has separate corporate
10 MS. RONAYNE: No. You’ve got it every 10 identity.
11 single -- they’re ongoingOTTS: So they’re ongoing? 11 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. All I want to
12 MS. RONAYNE: Yes. 12 know is if he knows who this person is that gave a
13 MR. POTTS: Okay. Then you can answer 13 million dollars in collectibles.
14 the question. Go ahead. 14 MR. POTTS: Yeah, that’s okay if it
15 BY MS. RONAYNE: 15 has been disclosed.
16 Q Who was the person that donated the -- 16 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah.
17 MR. POTTS: Let me just -- form 17 MR. POTTS: Give her that.
18 another -- form a response. He’s not the entity even 18 THE WITNESS: Elsie Clark.
19 though he’s the officer of the entity, so the 19 BY MS. RONAYNE:
20 questions aren’t posed to him in that capacity. He’s 20 Q Who is it?
21 not -- the entity’s not a party to these proceedings, 21 A Elsie. Her name is Elsie.
22 it’s not even a witness to these proceedings. 22 Q A woman’s name?
23 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 23 A Yes
24 MR. POTTS: It’s a separate entity. 24 Q E-l --
25 It’s a not-for-profit corporation, it has legal 25 A Yeah.
 14 (Pages 50 to 53)
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1 Q -- s -- 1 Q Okay. Have any of -- is there any inventory of the
2 A E-l-i-s-e. 2 collectibles?
3 Q E-l? 3 A Yes, there should be inventory.
4 A L -- E-l-i-s-e. 4 Q And who would have that?
5 Q Elise? 5 A Michelle would know that.
6 A I think Elsie. I think you put s after the l. 6 Q Have any of your ministries, including JMMI, been
7 That’s the -- 7 audited by the IRS?
8 Q All right. So spell it one more time for me. 8 A No.
9 A E-l-i-s-e. 9 Q Investigated by the FBI?
10 Q All right. And her last name? 10 A No.
11 A I’m not sure about that because she -- I think she 11 Q You or your ministries, that applies to?
12 was recently married so. 12 A No.
13 MR. POTTS: What was the name at the 13 Q So neither you nor your ministries?
14 time of the gift. 14 A No.
15 THE WITNESS: See, I was going -- I 15 Q Okay. And have you ever been arrested?
16 thought it was Clark but I don’t want to do what I 16 A No.
17 did here last time because I don’t want them to 17 Q Ever been charged criminally with any crime?
18 accuse me of -- 18 A No.
19 MR. POTTS: Do the best you -- 19 Q Ever been indicted by a grand jury?
20 BY MS. RONAYNE: 20 A No.
21 Q You thought it was who? 21 Q Have you ever been sued personally or in any other
22 A I don’t know. I really -- I just rather say I don’t 22 capacity?
23 know. 23 A No --
24 Q No, you don’t get a rather. What did you -- 24 MR. POTTS: Think about that, because
25 A I don’t know. 25 that’s a large --

Page 51 Page 53
1 Q You said you -- 1 THE WITNESS: Right. I don’t know.
2 A I don’t know. 2 MR. POTTS: I may need to object. I
3 MR. POTTS: Give your best estimate of 3 just don’t want to get involved in --
4 the name, if you recall. Go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: I need to kind of
5 THE WITNESS: Because I think I’m 5 understand what --
6 getting it confused with somebody else’s name. 6 MR. POTTS: A lawsuit. Have you ever
7 BY MS. RONAYNE: 7 been a defendant? Have you been a plaintiff? A
8 Q That’s okay. 8 party in a lawsuit? Were you divorced?
9 A That’s the thing. Elsie Clark, I think. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. So, yeah.
10 MR. POTTS: To the best of your 10 MR. POTTS: You were --
11 recollection. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. 12 MR. POTTS: You were involved in a
13 BY MS. RONAYNE: 13 divorce.
14 Q I think you -- 14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 A I’m just confusing it with another. I think that’s 15 MR. POTTS: That’s one lawsuit.
16 wrong. I’m mixing the two names. 16 THE WITNESS: That’s one. Okay.
17 Q Is that something Michelle would know? 17 BY MS. RONAYNE:
18 A Yeah, she would probably know that. 18 Q Did you file or did your wife?
19 Q And you think these collectibles are in some storage 19 A My wife.
20 center in St. Louis? 20 Q All right. Any other lawsuits that you were involved
21 A Yes. 21 in?
22 Q And ultimately it would be to liquidate them? 22 A Not that I know of.
23 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q Never been sued by anybody else but your wife?
24 Q Yes? 24 A No.
25 A Yes. 25 Q Never sued anybody else?
 15 (Pages 54 to 57)
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1 A No, I don’t think -- I don’t think I’ve ever been, 1 A I’m not sure. You’d probably have to ask Michelle.
2 not like -- 2 I’m not positive.
3 Q Has JMMI ever been sued? 3 Q So he was saying, in essence, he wanted the return of
4 A I think they have. 4 office equipment from JMMI?
5 THE WITNESS: Is that -- can I say 5 A No. I don’t know all the details of it so I can’t
6 that? 6 speak on it. I was not involved in that.
7 MR. POTTS: You can answer that. 7 Q What kind of equipment would it be?
8 THE WITNESS: I think they have. 8 A I don’t know. I don’t have any -- I really don’t
9 BY MS. RONAYNE: 9 have any understanding of the total thing, because
10 Q And when was that? 10 what he’s trying to do is really sue the church
11 A It was just recent. I think that’s what you will 11 before we got the building who -- that he was a part
12 call that. I don’t know if that’s what you’d call 12 of.
13 it. I don’t know. 13 Q Okay. Wait. Back -- back up.
14 Q All right. 14 A Because we bought the building, he’s -- I guess he
15 A But I know there’s a -- a -- a man named Jim Patrick 15 thought we had his equipment.
16 that -- that used to be a part of the building, and 16 Q So what building are you referring to that you
17 he was falsifying things about the ministry owing him 17 bought?
18 any money and a lot of it was, from my knowledge, was 18 A In Taylor, Michigan.
19 thrown out, so I don’t know if you’d call that a 19 Q What building?
20 suit. That was just -- 20 A Ministry bulk (phonetic), mm-hmm.
21 Q Well, was there a lawsuit filed in court? 21 Q What building?
22 A I -- yeah, I think we had to go to court so that’s 22 A On the 20320 Superior Road.
23 probably what it is. 23 Q So you own that building and you lease it to the
24 Q All right. So was Jim Patrick the plaintiff? 24 church?
25 A Yeah. 25 A Yes.

Page 55 Page 57
1 Q And he was suing JMMI? 1 Q And how much do you get in lease money?
2 A I guess that’s what you’d call it. Is that what 2 A 3k.
3 you’d -- 3 Q A month?
4 Q Well, you -- 4 A Yeah.
5 A I don’t know. I really don’t know, honestly. 5 Q And you also run offices out of there?
6 Q Did you go to court? 6 A Yes.
7 A No, I didn’t go to court. 7 Q What about the lawsuit filed in 2006 by GE Capital
8 Q Did you hire a lawyer? 8 Information Technology Solutions where you and
9 A Yes. The ministry, JMMI did, that is all. 9 Resurrection Media Ministries were named as
10 Q And did this occur in St. Louis? 10 defendants?
11 A No. Here in Michigan. 11 A I can’t remember everything that that was about. But
12 Q In Michigan. Do you know what -- was it downtown in 12 I do remember something like that and -- because I
13 Wayne County? Was it Taylor court? 13 filed bankruptcy, I think, in --
14 A I really don’t have the information. I don’t know. 14 Q Personally?
15 Q And what were the basic allegations that were made? 15 A Yeah, mm-hmm. And --
16 A Just that, you know, he -- he was owed so much money 16 Q When did you personally file bankruptcy?
17 for so much equipment. He said that it was -- he 17 A I think that was in -- was that -- I -- I don’t know
18 owns that he don’t have and it wasn’t true. 18 the exact year but I know we were having proceedings
19 Q I’m sorry. He was owed money for equipment? 19 around that.
20 A Mm-hmm. 20 Q Well, approximately? I understand you don’t know
21 Q You have to -- 21 exactly but --
22 A Not owed money for equipment, but he was trying to 22 A Maybe ’05, ’06, I don’t know (inaudible).
23 say equipment was his that wasn’t his, which they 23 Q All right. So you filed personal bankruptcy and was
24 found out to be not true what he was saying. 24 it the result of -- or in some way related to the GE
25 Q So is that resolved and over with? 25 Capital Information lawsuit?
 16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 58 Page 60
1 A I think. That’s been so long ago I don’t remember 1 mentioned you filed bankruptcy so I assume there was
2 all the details to that. 2 some relationship.
3 Q What was the essence of the lawsuit? 3 A I don’t think so. I just -- that came to me and I --
4 A That’s the thing, I don’t remember that. 4 I wonder what that was about so I’d just rather say I
5 Q No idea? Anything about it? 5 don’t know. I really don’t know. It’s been so long
6 A No. I remember the GE name, I just don’t remember 6 ago.
7 what it was about. 7 Q Do you -- if you were guessing, even would you say
8 Q But it was significant enough that you filed 8 that you had a judgment against you for that?
9 bankruptcy? 9 A I -- I think that was, I guess, for -- I -- I don’t
10 A Well, that wasn’t the reason why I filed bankruptcy. 10 know if that was for -- what that was about.
11 I just remember the bankruptcy thing happening around 11 Q And you have no recall of what that was? It was
12 that time. 12 about?
13 Q Why did you file bankruptcy then? 13 A No.
14 A Because of the -- the ratio to debt. 14 Q And at that time it was Resurrection Media
15 Q What kind of debt did you have at the time? 15 Ministries?
16 A I’m -- what debt did I have? I can’t remember all of 16 A Yes, mm-hmm.
17 it, but it’s not something I remember in detail. Mm- 17 Q And when did that name come into play?
18 hmm. I can’t -- I can’t remember. 18 A That came in 2000 -- I mean -- I’m sorry -- 1995.
19 MR. POTTS: Can I ask a question? To 19 Q To --
20 ask you -- 20 A Because it was legally filed in ’98 or maybe before
21 MS. RONAYNE: Mm-hmm. 21 ’98. I’m not sure. But around 1994 and ’98, around
22 MR. POTTS: -- where did he file 22 that time.
23 bankruptcy? 23 Q And when did it end?
24 MS. RONAYNE: Well, I’m going to -- 24 A I think 2007 or ’06.
25 MR. POTTS: Just -- if it was here, 25 Q And why?

Page 59 Page 61
1 that is fine. 1 A We just wanted to start a new name.
2 MS. RONAYNE: Well, I’m going to get 2 Q Were there debts against this ministry?
3 to that. 3 A Yeah, there was some debts.
4 BY MS. RONAYNE: 4 Q What was your role in this Resurrection Media
5 Q Were you residing in St. Louis when you filed it? 5 Ministries?
6 A Mm-hmm. 6 A I was the CEO, yeah.
7 Q You have to answer -- 7 Q Was Michelle involved in that one?
8 A Yes, mm-hmm. 8 A No.
9 Q And so did you file it in -- 9 Q Who else was on the board for Resurrection?
10 A St. Louis. 10 A I don’t remember. It’s been so long, honestly.
11 Q -- in the St. Louis Federal District Court? 11 Q So did you, in essence, just abandon that name and
12 A Yes, mm-hmm. 12 ministry?
13 Q And where was this lawsuit by GE Capital? Where was 13 A I don’t know what you mean by abandon.
14 that filed? 14 Q No longer called yourself that? No longer
15 A I think it’s in St. Louis, yeah. 15 participated under that label?
16 Q So would it be fair to say that there probably was a 16 A Right, mm-hmm.
17 judgment against you that you wanted to discharge in 17 Q And you believe -- and you believe that there were --
18 bankruptcy? 18 there were debts associated with that?
19 MR. POTTS: Don’t speculate. If you 19 A Yeah, that was --
20 don’t know -- 20 Q Was that part of your reasoning in changing the name?
21 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. 21 A No. I don’t think that was the reason, no.
22 MR. POTTS: -- don’t speculate. 22 Q Who else was part of the decision to change the name
23 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. 23 from Resurrection to JMMI?
24 BY MS. RONAYNE: 24 A No one but me.
25 Q Well, you started to answer questions about GE you 25 Q Just you?
 17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 62 Page 64
1 A Mm-hmm. 1 Q Was there a judgment against you and or your wife?
2 Q And so why did you do that? 2 A Yea, I think there was a judgment.
3 A I wanted to start under a new name. 3 Q So that may have also factored into your reasoning to
4 Q Why? 4 file bankruptcy, was it this judgment?
5 A I just felt we needed to start under a new name. 5 A I don’t think that was the only thing.
6 Q So there wasn’t anybody else on the board but you? 6 Q I’m not saying the only reason.
7 A No. I’m sure there was a board but I don’t 7 A Right, mm-hmm.
8 remember -- 8 Q But one of the factors?
9 Q Okay. 9 A It might be, mm-hmm.
10 A -- who they were then. 10 Q You have to answer yes or no.
11 Q And was there anything in between Resurrection and 11 A Yes, mm-hmm.
12 Joshua Media Ministries? 12 Q You had criminal charges filed against you in Clay
13 A No. 13 Circuit Court in 2007. What was that about?
14 Q So you went from one directly to the other? 14 A I don’t know. I don’t remember no criminal charges
15 A Mm-hmm. 15 against me.
16 MR. POTTS: That’s a yes? 16 Q You don’t remember any criminal charges in Clay
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, mm-hmm. 17 Circuit Court?
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 A No, mm-uh. I don’t ever remember going to any court
19 Q What about the lawsuit filed by All Winners 19 about no criminal activity.
20 Investments with you and CompuCom IT Solutions that 20 Q What about the criminal charges filed against you in
21 were named as defendants. Tell us about that one. 21 Pettis 18th Circuit Court in 2007 and 2013?
22 A I don’t -- I don’t remember anything about that other 22 A I don’t -- I don’t -- I don’t know what you’re
23 than that being a -- a company that my ex was 23 talking about. The criminal in 2007?
24 involved in. 24 Q 2007 and ’13, or any for that matter?
25 Q When you say your ex, who are you referring to? 25 A I don’t know. I have never been to court for no

Page 63 Page 65
1 A Tabitha Taylor. 1 criminal charges.
2 Q But you were named as a defendant. 2 Q Did you ever hire a --
3 A Probably, yeah. Because that’s -- that was a company 3 A I understand --
4 she was in or company she was working with her 4 Q Pardon me?
5 business. 5 A Go on.
6 Q And what’s the timeframe for that? 6 Q Did you ever hire an attorney to represent you in any
7 A Timeframe? 7 criminal defense manner?
8 Q When this lawsuit was filed? 8 A Yes, I have. And that was the only thing I could
9 A I’m not sure. I think it was around ’05. I think 9 think of in ’13 is me, you know, when I discipline my
10 when real estate dropped, because that’s what that 10 child and that was the only thing so I -- I don’t
11 was concerning, a real estate business or venture. 11 know anything other than that.
12 Q What is All Winners refer to? 12 Q Tell me about that one. Was that in St. Louis?
13 A I don’t know. 13 A Yes, mm-hmm.
14 Q You don’t know what the company is? 14 Q And which child was that?
15 A No, that -- that wasn’t her company, I don’t think. 15 A That was last year, I think, or the year before last
16 That was a company I said she was working with that 16 if I’m not -- ’13, that’s --
17 was -- 17 Q Which child?
18 Q Okay. And what was the name of her business? 18 A Destiny.
19 A I don’t know. 19 Q Your 18-year-old daughter?
20 Q Was it CompuCom? 20 A Yes, mm-hmm.
21 A I’m not sure. 21 Q And was this done through Children’s Protective
22 Q Would Michelle know about this one? 22 Services?
23 A No. 23 A I think so, yeah.
24 Q Was this in St. Louis? 24 Q And what were the allegations?
25 A Yes. 25 A Well, that -- that I had disciplined her because she
 18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 66 Page 68
1 skipped class 20 times and -- and they felt me -- my 1 concerned about it as well.
2 discipline measure of using a belt was abusive. 2 BY MS. RONAYNE:
3 Q All right. So you -- you used a belt in disciplining 3 Q Well, is this -- is this -- let me ask you. Did this
4 Destiny? 4 rise to the level of court intervention by the local
5 A I don’t know if I could speak on that. 5 court in St. Louis that -- that does --
6 THE WITNESS: Can I speak on this? 6 MR. POTTS: Don’t speculate if you
7 Because my -- my lawyer’s told me don’t -- 7 don’t know.
8 MR. POTTS: Then, not knowing the 8 THE WITNESS: I --
9 status of this proceedings -- 9 MS. RONAYNE: Well, please don’t
10 BY MS. RONAYNE: 10 testify for him.
11 Q Is it resolved? Is it all done? 11 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. I’m not
12 MR. POTTS: I’m going to object to the 12 sure.
13 question. 13 BY MS. RONAYNE:
14 BY MS. RONAYNE: 14 Q Did you go to court on it?
15 Q Well, let me just ask if it -- what the status is. 15 A What court? What do you --
16 MR. POTTS: If you know. 16 Q Any court? Did you ever go to any court about these
17 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. 17 allegations that you disciplined Destiny
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 physically --
19 Q All right. I’m not asking you to say what you did, 19 A I don’t --
20 I’m just asking if the allegations were that you 20 Q -- with a belt?
21 disciplined your daughter with a belt and caused -- 21 A So, what, would Family Court be --
22 just allegations. 22 Q Yeah.
23 MR. POTTS: You may ask, but I’m -- 23 A -- known as --
24 I’m going to pose a Constitutional protection on 24 MR. POTTS: If you know.
25 that. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, Family Court.

Page 67 Page 69
1 MS. RONAYNE: What’s the 1 BY MS. RONAYNE:
2 Constitutional -- 2 Q So you did go to Family Court, yes?
3 MR. POTTS: He said I don’t know. 3 A Yes, mm-hmm.
4 MS. RONAYNE: I’m not asking him to 4 Q And what was the outcome of that? Is it done? Is it
5 say what he did or didn’t do. 5 pending?
6 MR. POTTS: Anything that might lead 6 A I don’t know.
7 to or otherwise we might be considered incriminating, 7 Q You -- you have no idea?
8 I think he’s got a right to circumfit (phone -- 8 A No, I don’t know everything.
9 MS. RONAYNE: I think he can tell me 9 Q Is that why Destiny doesn’t live with you now?
10 what the allegations are. That is not privilege with 10 A Yes.
11 Amendment or otherwise. 11 Q When was the last time you were in the Family Court
12 MR. POTTS: Well, I think that it is 12 about this?
13 because he doesn’t -- if he doesn’t know. 13 A I can’t remember the exact day. It was last year
14 THE WITNESS: I don’t. 14 sometime.
15 MR. POTTS: He’s speculating and I 15 Q It don’t have to be the last --
16 think it’s privilege. 16 A Last year sometime.
17 MS. RONAYNE: Well, he’s not saying 17 Q The beginning? Do you know what season? Just
18 that. 18 approximate.
19 THE WITNESS: I just don’t know. 19 A I can’t remember. I really don’t know. But I know
20 MR. POTTS: Well, I’m going to say 20 it was in last year.
21 it’s privilege. It’s absolute. So if somebody wants 21 Q You have no idea if it is was in January versus
22 to take it -- you know, I don’t know -- I don’t know 22 December?
23 who the lawyer is. He doesn’t seem to know that -- 23 A Oh, I know it was not in January. But I really don’t
24 the condition of the matter, so to avoid any kind of 24 know what month it was.
25 drift, and I think maybe you -- you might be 25 Q Okay.
 19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 70 Page 72
1 A I don’t. 1 MR. POTTS: And we preserve it and
2 Q Is there any continuing court date? 2 we’ll see how we’ll produce it. But I don’t want to
3 A I think there is, but I don’t know when. 3 do that. I’m not trying to be obstructive.
4 Q Who would know that? 4 MS. RONAYNE: I know.
5 A Michelle would know that. 5 MR. POTTS: I’m trying to protect his
6 MR. POTTS: Do you have a lawyer in 6 rights, and I think we ought to be very careful about
7 these proceedings? 7 not knowing what’s going on in another jurisdiction
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 when he doesn’t know and he’s got a lawyer.
9 MR. POTTS: What’s the lawyer’s name? 9 MS. RONAYNE: He seems to know.
10 THE WITNESS: Mark. 10 MR. POTTS: Well, he doesn’t know. He
11 MR. POTTS: Do you got another name? 11 doesn’t know.
12 THE WITNESS: Uh? 12 MS. RONAYNE: I think he knows. He’s
13 MR. POTTS: Full name? Full name? 13 already said he was -- it’s alleged that he
14 THE WITNESS: His last name is 14 disciplined her for skipping class with a belt.
15 skipping me. I don’t always know his last name, but 15 That’s pretty straight forward.
16 if you need me to, I can get that for you afterwards. 16 BY MS. RONAYNE:
17 BY MS. RONAYNE: 17 Q On --
18 Q Was he court-appointed or did you retain him? 18 MR. POTTS: Well, then that ought to
19 A I retained him. Mark -- 19 be enough.
20 Q Did you retain him through JMMI or through your own 20 MS. RONAYNE: Well, I’m not done.
21 personal checking account? 21 BY MS. RONAYNE:
22 A I don’t -- 22 Q In April of 2014 you wrote a check for $3,000 and
23 MR. POTTS: Objection, relevancy as 23 another one for $382 to the Marks Law Firm.
24 to how he retained him. First of all -- 24 A Mark --
25 MS. RONAYNE: You can do -- 25 Q Which is a St. Louis law firm specializing in divorce

Page 71 Page 73
1 MR. POTTS: -- we don’t know who this 1 cases.
2 guy is. 2 A Okay.
3 MS. RONAYNE: You can do relevancy, 3 Q So is it his last name is Marks?
4 but I’m still asking -- 4 A Okay, yeah, that probably was. Jonathon Marks, yes.
5 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. 5 That’s his name now, good, exactly.
6 MR. POTTS: First of all, this whole 6 Q And you retained him?
7 line of questioning’s irrelevant. 7 A Mm-hmm.
8 MS. RONAYNE: That’s fine. Well, it 8 Q And JMMI wrote the check?
9 certainly does matter when he has pronounced in his 9 A I don’t know. I really don’t know.
10 last deposition that Debbie Frazier’s a fine mother. 10 Q I can show it to you as part of the discovery. So
11 So the fact that he’s involved -- 11 why would JMMI be paying for your personal legal
12 MR. POTTS: Well, that has nothing to 12 fees?
13 do with his sense of his -- 13 A I don’t know.
14 MS. RONAYNE: Sure, it does. 14 Q You don’t know?
15 MR. POTTS: -- experience. 15 A Mm-uh. I mean, I had -- you can ask Michelle. The
16 MS. RONAYNE: Sure. 16 financial board knows all the IRS laws and they know
17 MR. POTTS: It’s opinion. 17 what to be done and not to be done so.
18 MS. RONAYNE: Right. 18 Q They know the -- what did you say?
19 MR. POTTS: You can challenge his 19 A The IRS laws.
20 opinion, but you don’t have to -- I -- I think this 20 Q IRS laws, was that what you said?
21 whole line of questioning -- 21 A Yeah. I don’t -- yeah.
22 MS. RONAYNE: That could be. 22 Q So Michelle knows the IRS laws?
23 MR. POTTS: -- is really way out of 23 A Well, we have a firm who knows all of that. But it
24 line, frankly. 24 would be better to ask her because I don’t --
25 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 25 Q What firm are you talking about?
 20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 74 Page 76
1 A I don’t know, yeah. 1 Q Who has signatory power on the check -- checking
2 Q A law firm or an accounting firm? 2 account?
3 A Accounting firm. 3 A I know I’m one of them. I don’t know everybody we
4 Q And you think the accounting firm -- 4 do.
5 MR. POTTS: Well, clearly they can 5 Q You don’t know all the people that are authorized to
6 reconcile the distribution and give -- 6 sign checks?
7 MS. RONAYNE: I understand. 7 A No. I know one of them.
8 THE WITNESS: Exactly, yeah. So I 8 Q What is Miracles in America?
9 don’t know how they’re doing so I -- I can’t answer 9 A It’s -- it’s the name of the crusades I do in the
10 on that. 10 American country.
11 BY MS. RONAYNE: 11 Q Say that again.
12 Q Well, I’m going to show you two checks. 12 A It’s the name of the crusades that I do in the
13 A Okay. 13 American country.
14 Q Made out to Marks Law Firm and ask you if that is 14 Q In the American country?
15 your signature on both of them? 15 A Mm-hmm.
16 A Yes, of course. 16 Q What does that mean? What American country?
17 Q Okay. So you wrote the checks from an account that 17 A Well, that -- what we’re on right now.
18 is Joshua Media Ministries -- 18 Q Are you talking about the United States?
19 A Do it say that on -- 19 A The United States of America, yeah.
20 Q -- expense account. 20 Q So Miracles in America is the crusade?
21 A Where are you saying? 21 A Yes, the name of the crusade. It’s a title theme.
22 Q Right there. 22 Q Title theme? And what -- tell me about it.
23 A Yes, mm-hmm. 23 A Well, it’s just a campaign I do to love sick people.
24 Q So you wrote the checks to Marks Law Firm, signed the 24 (Inaudible, cell phone ringing.)
25 check from a JMMI expense account? 25 MS. RONAYNE: Do you want to take a

Page 75 Page 77
1 A Yeah. I think I signed the checks but, like I say, 1 minute.
2 Michelle would know better what these went for. 2 MR. POTTS: Can I do this, it’s Rich?
3 Q You don’t know what they went for? 3 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. Go ahead.
4 A No. I mean, well, I see what they went for, but, 4 MR. POTTS: Hey, Ricky.
5 like I say, it would be better to ask her because I 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the
6 don’t know. I have checks signed so they can deal 6 record --
7 with business or whatever, so I don’t know how 7 MS. RONAYNE: Yes.
8 they’re all allocating everything so it would be 8 VIDEOGRAPHER: -- at 11:54 a.m.
9 better to ask her. 9 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was held on
10 Q But you acknowledge that you signed this check to 10 the record at 11:54 a.m. to 12:12 p.m.)
11 Marks -- 11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
12 A Yes. 12 record, it is 12:12 p.m.
13 Q -- from an expense account at JMMI? 13 MS. RONAYNE: Ready?
14 A Yes, mm-hmm. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 Q Who is attorney Jeff Weisman? 15 BY MS. RONAYNE:
16 A I’m not -- that name isn’t registering with me. 16 Q All right. We were talking about Miracles in
17 Q JMMI paid a retainer of $2,000 to him in September. 17 America. So explain to me what that is.
18 A I don’t know. 18 A It’s a -- it’s a ministry outreach of -- that
19 Q You have no idea? 19 minister to hurting people.
20 A No. 20 Q What do you mean hurting people?
21 Q Would that be a check you also signed? 21 A Sick people, people on drugs who are in kind of a
22 A I don’t know. I mean, any checks that go out that me 22 form of hurt, emotional, mental, physical.
23 or my board can sign, then I’m not always notified on 23 Q So what does the ministry do?
24 every intricate detail of where the check is going. 24 A Pray for people. Feed the poor.
25 I have trusted people who make sure that is done. 25 Q Where do you feed the poor?
 21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 78 Page 80
1 A Well, we was doing it out of the building in Taylor 1 A Like every other ministry does in church.
2 up until last year. 2 Q Okay. What do you mean when it’s finished?
3 Q Until -- 3 A Well --
4 A The beginning part of last year. 4 Q I don’t understand this so you’re going to have to
5 Q Until early 2014? 5 explain it.
6 A Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 6 A Mm-hmm.
7 Q And why did it stop? 7 Q You say when it’s finished then you give them an
8 A It’s just that we needed new structure of people to 8 opportunity to donate?
9 run that part because the people who we had running 9 A Yeah. When I -- when we finish helping them, or
10 it left and went to another place. 10 whatever, we give people opportunity to give and
11 Q So does Miracle -- Miracles in America, is that a 11 donate to the ministry.
12 separate banking account? 12 Q So are you talking about at a specific gathering, for
13 A Miracles in America? 13 example, the Taylor --
14 Q Right. 14 A Mm-hmm.
15 A I don’t remember. I don’t -- I don’t understand. 15 Q You have to answer yes or no.
16 Q You don’t understand? 16 A Yes, uh-huh.
17 A Well, I mean, I don’t understand the question 17 Q That you -- what, you call people up who need to be
18 totally. 18 helped, is that what you’re talking about?
19 Q Does Miracles in America have a separate banking 19 A I don’t know if it’s just calling people up who need
20 account from JMMI? 20 to be helped. Only we -- we have X people to come --
21 A Not that I know -- I know of, maybe -- probably you 21 if they need help, prayer, needs to come up. But
22 need to ask Michelle, she would know. 22 that ain’t normally just the way we’re flowing that.
23 Q So do -- when you say it’s a crusade, tell me what a 23 But --
24 crusade is. 24 Q Well, tell me what you do in Miracles in America
25 A It’s just a campaign. 25 that’s different from your normal ministry?

Page 79 Page 81
1 Q What does a campaign mean? 1 A Well, there are many ministries that does what we do.
2 A A campaign is a -- a -- a purposeful ministry 2 I mean --
3 endeavor to achieve a -- a specific objective. 3 Q I just want to know about yours.
4 Q So is it a request for money? 4 A Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s normal, they pray for the
5 A No, it was not. That’s not what the campaign is for. 5 sick just like every pastor does in a church, they
6 It’s -- the campaign is to help hurting people. 6 pray for sick members and people who are hurting.
7 Q So what do you do to help hurting people? 7 Q So you say after you’ve helped them, is that -- are
8 A Well, we pray for the sick. We -- 8 you saying you helped them at one meeting, is that
9 Q When you say we, who are you talking about? 9 what it would be?
10 A Well, the whole organization. 10 A Well, we have multiple meetings so we offer
11 Q So do you ask for donations to help -- 11 counseling and all kind of other forms of ministry.
12 A Oh, of course. Yeah. 12 Drug rehab.
13 Q Okay. 13 Q You offer drug rehab?
14 A Donations, that’s normal in a charity. 14 A Mm-hmm.
15 Q So you ask for a donation -- 15 Q Where?
16 A Mm-hmm. 16 A There at the Taylor building.
17 Q -- and then you pray for these people that you think 17 Q You run a drug rehab?
18 are hurting? 18 A Well, not -- not something for -- more along the
19 A Mm-hmm. No, that ain’t how we do it. 19 spiritual lines of counseling and helping them to get
20 Q Okay. Well, tell me. I’m trying to figure this out. 20 off that kind of life, you know.
21 A Well, I mean, our objective is to help hurting people 21 Q Who does the counseling?
22 and in the process, you know, when most of that’s 22 A I think her name is Mary Jessikee (phonetic).
23 finished, we give people an opportunity to donate to 23 Q Mary?
24 the ministry. 24 A Jessikee.
25 Q You mean when -- 25 Q How do you spell that?
 22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 82 Page 84
1 A I don’t know. 1 A Yeah, of course. Yeah.
2 Q Jessikee? 2 Q What’s the name of that church?
3 A Mm-hmm. 3 A Kingdom Family Church.
4 Q And she offers drug rehab counseling? 4 Q So that’s not run by JMMI?
5 A Yes. 5 A Actually, no, it’s a separate entity. It’s run by
6 Q Is she a certified drug rehab counselor? 6 KFC.
7 A No. I don’t know. But it’s just ministry. I don’t 7 Q What’s KFC?
8 -- I think you are getting more technical into the 8 A Kingdom Family Church.
9 legal aspect of it where I’m talking about spiritual 9 Q Okay. So they’re -- they are separate unto
10 ministry and giving people advice to stop using drugs 10 themselves?
11 and to pray for them that they will be free from 11 A Yes. They’re just a part of the movement, you know.
12 that. 12 Q I don’t know.
13 Q Is she a minister? 13 A Okay. Well, JMMI is a movement. It’s a global
14 A Yeah, mm-hmm. 14 movement, and there are a lot of churches who are a
15 Q She is a minister? 15 part -- around the world is a part of what we do, and
16 A Yes. 16 they’re one of the churches that do -- they happen to
17 Q With what organization? 17 be leasing the building from us.
18 A Well, she’s with us, but I don’t know if she -- if 18 Q All right. So when you say that there is a drug
19 it’s an organization she’s a part of. 19 rehab component, you’re referring to that’s Kingdom
20 Q She’s a minister with JMMI? 20 Family Church, that’s not JMMI?
21 A Yes, mm-hmm. She’s part of the church that’s leasing 21 A Well, no, that’s not Kingdom Family Church. That is
22 the building from us. 22 JMMI.
23 Q Oh, she’s part of the church -- the Taylor church 23 Q So J --
24 that leases the building. So that’s JMMI, though? 24 A We just have somebody from KFC, who is a minister,
25 A No, mm-uh. 25 that we allow to run that.

Page 83 Page 85
1 Q Okay. So it’s not part of JMMI? This is something 1 Q Are you on the board of Kingdom Family Church?
2 that is done independently through the people that 2 A Yes.
3 lease the building from you in Taylor? 3 Q In what capacity?
4 A No. No. This is JMMI that has put that in place and 4 A I -- I don’t know. I know I’m on the board, but I --
5 I let ministers from that church be a part of it. 5 I don’t know what official title that you will say.
6 Q So do you pay for that? 6 Q So you’re saying that the drug rehab ministry that
7 A Pay? I’m sorry. What do you mean? 7 runs out of the Taylor building is JMMI and not KFC?
8 Q What do you mean you put it in place? Do you pay for 8 A Right.
9 it in some fashion? 9 Q Does Debbie Frazier participate in that?
10 A I don’t understand what you’re asking. That don’t 10 A Not that I know of.
11 make sense. 11 Q She’s not working with the drug rehab part?
12 Q Well, I mean, it -- it costs money to run these 12 A That I know of.
13 things so who -- who -- 13 Q Are there any other ministries that you say are run
14 A Of course, I mean, I -- JMMI pays for the overhead of 14 out of the Taylor that are JMMI’s obligation or --
15 -- I mean, whatever happens in that building so. 15 A No.
16 Q Don’t they lease it from you? 16 Q No? Just the drug rehab?
17 A We lease it -- 17 A Right.
18 Q Don’t they pay you? 18 Q All right. So when you say Miracles in America,
19 A Yeah, but not normally, you know, it’s sporadically. 19 you’ve claimed that you can cure cancer?
20 Q What do you mean not normally? 20 A No, I’ve never claimed I can cure cancer.
21 A Well, I don’t -- I don’t make them stick to that, you 21 Q No? Have you brought people up to the front when
22 know, if -- if there are things that the church need 22 you’re preaching and laid your hands on them --
23 I -- I’ll waive that fee, you know, so. 23 A Yes, mm-hmm.
24 Q So you have the ability to waive fees of the Taylor 24 Q -- and cured them?
25 church that leases from you? 25 A The Lord does it through me. It’s not me that’s --
 23 (Pages 86 to 89)
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1 Q Okay. So the Lord does it through you? 1 what you said.
2 A Right. 2 A Yeah. He does it through others, too --
3 Q So has the Lord ever, through you, cured cancer? 3 Q Okay.
4 A Yes. 4 A -- not just me.
5 Q Yes? 5 Q Can you name some other people that have done this?
6 A Mm-hmm. 6 A Catholics do it.
7 Q And how many times do you think that’s happened? 7 Q Catholics don’t.
8 A I don’t know. I haven’t kept -- 8 A They do.
9 Q So let me -- procedurally, let me see. So would the 9 Q I’m Catholic. It doesn’t happen.
10 scenario be that you bring people up that you say are 10 A No. You’re -- you’re a part -- you’re a part of a
11 sick in some -- or hurting in some fashion -- 11 certain Catholic. There are Catholics who do that.
12 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q Who believe that they can cure physical illnesses by
13 Q -- and you lay your hands on them and through the 13 laying their hands on them --
14 Lord they’re cured and that’s when you ask them to 14 A No. You’re --
15 make contributions because you’ve helped them? 15 Q -- through God?
16 A No. 16 A Yeah, you’re misquoting that again. They’re not
17 Q Okay. Explain it to me then. 17 saying that they can do it, but they believe in
18 A Well, I mean, there are people who come that are sick 18 prayer.
19 and they all know basically what I say that I’m not 19 Q Through --
20 the one who has the power to cure you, God do, but as 20 A They believe in prayer.
21 ministers he’s given us the obligation and 21 Q Well, okay, so are you saying that all you do is pray
22 responsibility to pray for the sick to see them heal 22 and that these people end up being cured?
23 -- that they may be healed. I can’t -- I can’t say 23 A Some of them, yeah.
24 if they completely will be or not, I’m not the one 24 Q Can you give me some people that have been?
25 who makes the decision, God does, or whatever. But I 25 A I can’t.

Page 87 Page 89
1 do my job to pray for them and as a result of doing 1 Q And so, then, after you’ve -- is that -- is that what
2 that basically there are some that are healed, some 2 you’re referring to, the Miracles in America, is that
3 that are not so. 3 part --
4 Q What kinds of ailments are healed? Are there people 4 A Mm-hmm
5 that come up on -- on crutches and are able to walk 5 Q -- where you bring them up and lay your hands on them
6 away? 6 and pray, that’s the miracles part?
7 A Yeah. 7 A Yes.
8 Q People that come up in wheelchairs and are able to 8 Q Okay. That’s the campaign?
9 get up and walk? 9 A Mm-hmm.
10 A Right. 10 Q And then you were -- and then you say if you’ve been
11 Q And do you know these people before they come up and 11 cured you should donate?
12 approach you? 12 A No.
13 A No. 13 Q Or consider donating?
14 Q Anybody at JMMI know them? 14 A No.
15 A Not that I know of. 15 Q No? I thought you said after --
16 Q So you’re saying that of all the -- the ministries of 16 A The heal --
17 the world, you’ve been selected to lay your hands on 17 Q -- the people that you’ve helped --
18 these folks and to cure them of their physical 18 A The healing is not a part of any money donations.
19 ailments through God? 19 The -- the -- the donation and financial part is more
20 A Well, Catholics lay hands on sick people. They don’t 20 of me asking for support to continue these kind of
21 all -- 21 meetings to get broader and reachable people.
22 Q They do not say that they have cured them, though. 22 Q I thought you had said that after these people have
23 A Oh, no. I mean, they pray. I didn’t say I cure 23 been helped that -- after you’ve --
24 them. I say I pray for them. 24 A I was just stating the -- the -- the succession or
25 Q You say that the Lord does it through you, that’s 25 whatever. It has nothing to do with the way you’re
 24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 90 Page 92
1 trying to word that, you know, about the -- 1 Q So they come back and report that they were cured?
2 Q Well, you’re -- feel free to reword it. I’m just 2 A Mm-hmm.
3 trying to -- 3 Q Have you ever, through the Lord, cured -- cured a
4 A Well, I -- 4 blind person?
5 MR. POTTS: Just answer the question. 5 A Yes.
6 You don’t have to paraphrase or anything. 6 Q And where did that occur?
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, I’m just 7 A Well, it’s happened in different places over the
8 saying that’s what happens. 8 years.
9 BY MS. RONAYNE: 9 Q So, so many times that you can count?
10 Q Is that you call people up, you lay your hands on 10 A No, I can’t.
11 them, you believe that through you the Lord cures 11 Q And what about people that were crippled, who were
12 them? 12 unable to walk, the same thing?
13 MR. POTTS: I think this question’s 13 A Right.
14 been asked and answered at least a dozen times. 14 Q And then do these people follow you around to your
15 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 15 crusades and ministries?
16 MR. POTTS: So we’re not going to do 16 A Some end up -- do, yeah. But we just -- mainly just
17 it again. 17 get a whole new group of people because it’s not a
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 church, it’s more of, you know, a place where they
19 Q And that -- and then at some point -- at the end of 19 come to get ministered to, you know, and go back out.
20 this service, you ask for donations? 20 Q How do you receive your donations?
21 A Yes. 21 A How do I receive them?
22 Q Okay. 22 Q Right. How do you go about asking them and funding
23 A Sometimes, yeah. 23 this?
24 Q There has been some talk among your ministry that 24 A I ask them to give.
25 you’re able to cure AIDS. Is that something you -- 25 Q Who? How?

Page 91 Page 93
1 not you, personally, but through the Lord, have you 1 A The people who are there in my meetings.
2 ever been able to cure AIDS through the Lord? 2 Q So the people that are in your meetings, you request
3 A Yes. 3 funds from them?
4 Q You have? 4 A Yeah, I ask them to so.
5 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q So when you’re having a -- what do you call the -- a
6 Q And when did that happen? 6 service of some sort in Taylor, then you ask for
7 A This has happened at different times over the years. 7 financial contributions?
8 Q Do you have any proof? 8 A Yes.
9 A It is verified by doctors, yeah. 9 Q Are there any -- any other outreach for financial
10 Q And is this in St. Louis or here or -- 10 contributions other than at the time of the service?
11 A Just different places. 11 A Of course, yeah. There are financial campaigns that
12 Q Just different places. And then do you go to the 12 go on all the time.
13 follow-up doctors’ appointment with these people and 13 Q All right. Tell me about that.
14 see that their -- 14 A Okay. What do you mean now? What do you mean?
15 A No. I don’t have time to do all -- 15 Q What do you mean by financial campaign?
16 Q -- blood work is -- 16 A Well, I mean, like at the end of a service I’ll ask
17 A I don’t have time to do all that. I let them do 17 people if they want to donate and give to this
18 that. 18 ministry, then let them do that. When I’m traveling
19 Q How do you know -- 19 to different places I do the same thing. So that’s
20 A Because if -- if the Lord heals them, then it should 20 all part of the financial aspect of our ministry, how
21 show in the medical report. 21 we receive finances.
22 Q How do you know they’re cured? 22 Q Right. So I ask you other --
23 A Well, those who are, they come back with doctor 23 A And in the mail. Donate --
24 reports -- statements, and they give witness to it. 24 Q Okay.
25 The people give witness to it, not, you know, not me. 25 A Sending mail to us.
 25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 94 Page 96
1 Q Tell me about that. 1 Q So that’s when you -- but you said that you had a
2 A Well, we just send mail out, letters, tapes, 2 dream.
3 products, you know, and we give people the 3 A Yes, I did.
4 opportunity to give, my mailing list, people who have 4 Q Okay. No, not that dream. A dream later that you
5 been supporters. 5 were supposed to tell somebody something?
6 Q I’m sorry. 6 A I don’t --
7 A People who have been supporters -- 7 Q And you claimed privilege during that.
8 Q You give people an opportunity and I didn’t hear what 8 A I don’t -- you have to be more specific. I’m not
9 you said. 9 quite sure what you’re --
10 A Yeah. To donate, mm-hmm. 10 Q Okay. Let’s see.
11 Q So do you send them products and tapes without their 11 MR. POTTS: Do you want to refresh his
12 asking -- 12 recollection, is that what --
13 A Well -- 13 MS. RONAYNE: I’m going to read it
14 Q -- and hope they pay you? 14 into the transcript. I’m just trying to find out
15 A No. Sometimes we just give them out free. We give a 15 which is the best parts to pick, and I’ll -- I’ll
16 lot of things out free. 16 give you this so you can look at it.
17 Q And then hope that they’ll donate in appreciation? 17 BY MS. RONAYNE:
18 A Well, the gift is not in hope that they’ll donate. 18 Q So this -- at the last deposition we were talking
19 We just ask people, standardly, to give to the 19 about your face-to-face visits with Jesus.
20 ministry because of the ongoing vision of what we’re 20 A Okay.
21 trying to do around the world. 21 Q And you answered before 2010, 2007, and then I asked
22 Q What’s the ongoing vision? 22 you where it is -- and I’ll show this to you, you can
23 A Well, to reach the world and America through media, 23 review this -- and said you were asleep in a dream.
24 television, and all kind of other minister 24 And I asked where you were sleeping, and you said,
25 outreaches. 25 “St. Louis, at your residence,” and you said, “Mm-

Page 95 Page 97
1 Q Reach them to say what? 1 hmm.”
2 A I’m sorry. Reach -- 2 And I said, “What was that experience
3 Q What do you want to reach them about? 3 like?” And you said, “Well, he just basically
4 A Oh, I want to tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 appeared to me and showed me something that he wanted
5 Q Where do you get your mailing list? How do you know 5 me to say.” And then when I asked you to explain it,
6 who to send mail to? 6 you said, “It’s private, it’s priestly.” And the
7 A Just people who -- who gives us their mailing list or 7 Judge, in her opinion, said that you had to answer
8 their information through the service. 8 that.
9 Q How do they do that? Oh, it’s from people that are 9 MR. POTTS: Well, she don’t say that.
10 in the service? 10 She said she had -- he had to answer a certain
11 A Yes. Will call into the office or whatever. 11 classification of questions, not a specific question.
12 Q How do they know to call -- how do they know about 12 MS. RONAYNE: That -- including that
13 you to call? 13 one.
14 A From TV outlets and different exposure through media 14 MR. POTTS: No, it doesn’t say
15 outlets. 15 anything about that. But I will tell you, you can
16 Q Your previous testimony, and the judge specifically 16 answer that question as long as it doesn’t relate to
17 in her opinion said you had to answer this: You said 17 any communications --
18 that Jesus appeared to you in a dream -- 18 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
19 A Mm-hmm. 19 MR. POTTS: -- confidences, anything
20 Q -- in St. Louis of 2007. Can you tell me about that 20 that is necessary to your relationship with the
21 dream? 21 party --
22 A In 2007? No. I said he appeared to me when I got 22 MS. RONAYNE: Right.
23 saved in 1989 when I was 17 years old. 23 MR. POTTS: -- in an (inaudible) --
24 Q Is this when you were in culinary school? 24 MS. RONAYNE: Penitent further --
25 A No. I was in the 12th grade. 25 MR. POTTS: -- the plaintiff in this
 26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 98 Page 100
1 action which is another party. But as to those kinds 1 wanted me to say to somebody.
2 of generic things, go ahead. 2 Q Okay. Who is the somebody?
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Basically, he 3 A I guess the kind of talking it is, it’s country, you
4 spoke to me about our country, America, and -- 4 know, from Memphis, Tennessee. So when I say
5 BY MS. RONAYNE: 5 somebody --
6 Q Now, you -- you said very specifically that it was -- 6 Q No.
7 and telling you to tell somebody else that, and you 7 A -- I don’t mean one person, I mean --
8 didn’t want to disclose who it was or what it was 8 Q Okay. So --
9 about, not about the country. It wasn’t something in 9 A -- a group of people that he wants to say it to.
10 general -- 10 Q -- it wasn’t --
11 MR. POTTS: Well, you said he invoked 11 A -- a specific person, no. It’s a group of people,
12 the privilege and not say anything about it. 12 not a country.
13 MS. RONAYNE: No. He said -- 13 Q Well, see, it’s interesting, because later I say,
14 MR. POTTS: I thought he said -- you 14 “I’m asking you what Jesus said to you in the dream?”
15 said he wouldn’t tell. 15 And you said, “I can’t tell you. It’s for a person.”
16 THE WITNESS: I don’t remember. What 16 A Yes.
17 you’re reading -- 17 Q That I --
18 MR. POTTS: Hold on one second. My 18 A Oh, did I say person?
19 mic fell off. 19 Q Yeah, you said person, right here.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 20 A I don’t remember saying that. I don’t know if you
21 MR. POTTS: I got to rewire it. Thank 21 got that right.
22 you. I’m sorry. 22 Q Well, it’s not me. It’s the transcript.
23 BY MS. RONAYNE: 23 A Right.
24 Q Here’s what -- it says in the transcript, “Well, he 24 Q “I can’t tell you. It’s for a person.” Do you want
25 just basically appeared to me and showed me something 25 to read that?

Page 99 Page 101

1 that he wanted me to say.” And then you say, “He 1 A What I meant is personal, yeah. “I can’t tell you.
2 basically appeared to me to share what he wanted me 2 It’s for a person,” that I -- I don’t remember that,
3 to say to somebody. And I said, “Can you tell me 3 but --
4 what that is?” And he said, “It’s private. It’s 4 Q Okay. So, now, you’re changing that story.
5 priestly.” So that’s what I’m asking you. 5 A No.
6 MR. POTTS: He’s going to answer that 6 MR. POTTS: No. He’s expanding on --
7 question. 7 THE WITNESS: I’m explaining.
8 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 8 MR. POTTS: -- it to answer the
9 MR. POTTS: He will. 9 question.
10 BY MS. RONAYNE: 10 MS. RONAYNE: I want the record --
11 Q So who were you supposed to -- 11 THE WITNESS: It’s personal.
12 A I was -- I -- 12 MS. RONAYNE: I’ll let the record
13 Q What -- who is the somebody that you were supposed to 13 speak for itself.
14 say something to? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
15 A I don’t remember it being one specific person as 15 MR. POTTS: You may. But now you’re
16 you’re wording it. It was -- 16 asking him to -- ask what he meant. Because he
17 Q Well, it’s not how I worded it. You can read your 17 invoked the penitent privilege, I’m saying go ahead,
18 answer right there and read it into the record. 18 he’ll now explain it. It’s not related to any
19 A I understand what you’re saying -- 19 confidential communications with any individual.
20 Q Would you please read this, sir. 20 MS. RONAYNE: Right. So I’m not sure
21 A Yeah. I’ve already read it. Oh, you want me to say 21 why you interrupted because --
22 physically. 22 MR. POTTS: No, no, no. I’m --
23 Q Yeah. 23 BY MS. RONAYNE:
24 A He basically appeared to me to show -- he basically 24 Q Your testimony is that it was for somebody.
25 appeared to me to show -- to me to share what he 25 MR. POTTS: Well, you can argue that
 27 (Pages 102 to 105)
Page 102 Page 104
1 all you want. I’m going to let him answer the 1 sinners who will just -- they don’t know God and they
2 question as it doesn’t relate to any particular 2 are not -- they’re not trying to live for God at all,
3 communication with any -- 3 so those are the people we want to reach, help them.
4 MS. RONAYNE: It’s a dream. 4 Q The sinners that are not repentant?
5 MR. POTTS: It’s a dream. 5 A Right.
6 MS. RONAYNE: It’s not a 6 Q So God appeared to you and said what?
7 communication. Right, and in there, if you read the 7 A That’s what he said.
8 opinion, dreams are not privileged. Not privileged, 8 Q -- about this group?
9 clearly. 9 A He just said for me to tell them that he was the son
10 MR. POTTS: I’m not asserting. It’s 10 of God, that he had risen from the dead, and that he
11 his opinion. 11 died for their sins.
12 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. But he should 12 Q Do you claim to be a prophet?
13 just answer. 13 A Yeah, that’s one of my calls.
14 MR. POTTS: He’s trying to and you 14 Q One of your?
15 don’t like the answer. 15 A One of my calls, yeah.
16 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 Q Calls?
17 MS. RONAYNE: No. 17 A Mm-hmm.
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 Q What does that mean? What does it mean to be a
19 Q You interrupted when I said so you’re changing what 19 prophet?
20 the testimony is before when you said I had -- I 20 A There’s a spokesperson for God, a messenger.
21 wanted to -- or I was told by Jesus to talk to 21 Q So you believe you have direct communication with
22 somebody. Now you’re saying -- or to tell somebody 22 God?
23 something. Now you’re saying that’s not what it was. 23 A Yes.
24 A Well, you know, I’m expounding upon what I was trying 24 Q You posted a video on the Internet in 2014 and it was
25 to say. It’s not changing it. You just -- whatever 25 about the Super Bowl --

Page 103 Page 105

1 is written there, I just didn’t have the time I’m 1 A Mm-hmm.
2 having now to explain what I’m saying. It was 2 Q -- and you said, and this is a quote, “It was shown
3 personal. It something personal for a group of 3 to me that the Denver Broncos are going to win the
4 people. 4 Super Bowl,” end of quote.
5 Q Okay. Tell me what do you mean by that? 5 A Mm-hmm.
6 A Well, I mean, there are things that, you know, the 6 Q Then you went on to say, quote, “I understand by the
7 Lord wants to say to, you know, certain groups of 7 spirit, the interpretation of these dreams, and I
8 people in our country. 8 know them to be true,” end of quote. And then
9 Q Well, what -- what group and what did he say in the 9 further went on to say, as a quote, “The holy spirit
10 dream? 10 has borne witness to me that the Broncos are going to
11 A Well, he begin to speak to me about, you know, them 11 win,” end of quote.
12 giving their life to him. 12 A Mm-hmm.
13 Q Them being? 13 Q Did the Broncos win?
14 A And repenting of their sins. They’re just sinners. 14 A No.
15 Q So just in general? 15 Q Did you take that video down?
16 A Mm-hmm. 16 A Oh, of course, yeah.
17 Q You have to say yes or no. 17 Q Because it was wrong?
18 A But that’s a group -- yes, mm-hmm. But that’s a 18 A Yes. That was a -- really a miscommunication.
19 group -- 19 Q Between whom?
20 Q So it wasn’t any specific group that God -- you’re 20 A Someone had a dream they gave me and I tried to
21 saying that God just appeared to you and said people 21 interpret it and thought that I had help from God in
22 need to repent for their sins? 22 doing that and -- and it’s obviously that I didn’t,
23 A Yes. I mean, that is a specific group. 23 so just like other prophets in the Bible who missed
24 Q Aren’t we all sinners? 24 it at times, I missed that. So it was --
25 A Sinners saved by grace is one group, and there are 25 Q Other prophets have missed things like Super Bowls.
 28 (Pages 106 to 109)
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1 A Not Super Bowls, we’re talking about things -- 1 Q -- post any sort of explanation about why this wasn’t
2 Q Did -- 2 accurate?
3 A -- they miscommunicated messages God gave them and 3 A Of course, mm-hmm.
4 they made mistakes, too. 4 Q You did?
5 Q But not about Super Bowls, or that kind of secular 5 A I apologized, mm-hmm.
6 kind of -- 6 Q I don’t see that -- I looked. I don’t see that
7 A No, God is -- God is in everything. 7 posting. How long was that up?
8 Q God’s even in the Super Bowl? 8 A It was up a long time. It’s still out there.
9 A No. God is just in everything. Wherever people are, 9 Q You think there’s a posting, then tell me what it
10 he’s there. 10 says.
11 Q So -- 11 A I just explained to the people my heart, what I was
12 A Yeah. 12 trying to do and how I misguided that -- that
13 Q -- you think that -- 13 communication and so -- and told them I was sorry.
14 A But that wasn’t about -- to prophetize (sic) about a 14 But they’ve known my track record to be accurate,
15 Super Bowl, that was basically to show people that as 15 that they know that I wasn’t giving the dream. They
16 the -- who was that? The guy who won the cup? He 16 know when I’m -- I have a dream and prophesize it’s
17 even testified how he had a dream that he would win 17 accurate. But I explained to them that I was trying
18 and he did win in this last -- in the thing that was 18 to actually be, I guess, open to hearing God through
19 in Brazil I think that -- the huge World Cup or -- I 19 other people, interpreting what they saw.
20 forget what it is, but anyway, I -- you know, my 20 Q Even when it comes to football games?
21 point was trying to show that God speaks to people in 21 A It don’t matter what it is. It could be anything.
22 dreams but the dream the person had was not accurate 22 Q You said on the video that it was shown to you that
23 so. 23 the Denver Broncos were going to win.
24 Q Was -- 24 A No, I didn’t say --
25 A But the dreams I have are very accurate. 25 Q Yeah, that’s what you said. That’s a quote.

Page 107 Page 109

1 Q Okay. So who is the dreamer? 1 A -- completely -- listen to me. I specifically told
2 A This was just -- I don’t remember who it was. It was 2 them that the dream came from somebody else and as a
3 -- it was something sent in to me and I was -- 3 interpreter of that dream I felt that God was showing
4 Q Was being sent in to? 4 me that. Which I’ve said to you that I missed that
5 A -- to interpret. It was sent in by email. 5 point. I thought God was helping me to communicate
6 Q Somebody sent you -- 6 that and I was wrong about that so.
7 A Somebody’s dream -- yeah. Someone sent me a dream by 7 Q Well, you went on to say -- and this is a quote, “I
8 email. 8 understand by the spirit, the interpretations of
9 Q So you didn’t meet this person? 9 these dreams, and I know them to be true,” that’s end
10 A I knew of them. But I’m trying to remember if it was 10 of quote. And then another quote, “The whole spirit
11 them who had it or they were saying that they had a 11 has borne witness to me that the Broncos are going to
12 friend who told them and they really believed it 12 win,” end of quote.
13 and -- 13 A Mm-hmm, yeah.
14 Q You just pass on somebody saying something to 14 Q You said those things?
15 somebody who’s saying something and it becomes a 15 A Of course.
16 prophecy from God? 16 Q Of course?
17 A Well -- no. I have reputable people who have 17 A Yeah.
18 dreamed. 18 Q Okay. So the holy spirit bore witness to you. Tell
19 Q Reputable people? 19 me how that happened.
20 A Yeah. Who have dreamed accurately so sometimes I 20 A It was wrong so it wasn’t the holy spirit so why are
21 trust their word. Unlike, in this case, I -- I don’t 21 we still going over this question?
22 think I should have used my global platform to do 22 Q You don’t get to ask questions, you get to answer.
23 that, so, anyway. 23 A I’m just telling you, you’re being redundant. It
24 Q Did you -- 24 don’t make no sense.
25 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q No.
 29 (Pages 110 to 113)
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1 A I’ve shared what happened. 1 MR. POTTS: Is he recording these
2 Q Excuse me. If you -- you put on -- on the whole 2 conversations?
3 world-wide Internet that the holy spirit has borne 3 MS. RONAYNE: No, he’s playing her --
4 witness to you that the Broncos are going to win, 4 MR. POTTS: That’s another thing. I
5 right? 5 certainly hope he’s not because it’s violating --
6 A Yeah. 6 MS. RONAYNE: He’s not.
7 Q Okay. And why is this funny? 7 MR. POTTS: -- of criminal statutes if
8 A You’re just funny. 8 he’s tape-recording these conversations and he’s now
9 MR. POTTS: Let me make an objection. 9 playing it.
10 MS. RONAYNE: I understand, you’re 10 MS. RONAYNE: Look it, I don’t want
11 going to object to -- 11 that put on the record.
12 MR. POTTS: I’m sure somewhere in this 12 MR. POTTS: No, I’m just making a
13 line of questioning there’s some nexus, your motion 13 statement.
14 to either modify child support, change alimony, or 14 MS. RONAYNE: Some accusation --
15 somehow deal with custody and parenting time. 15 MR. POTTS: I’m not.
16 MS. RONAYNE: Right. 16 MS. RONAYNE: -- that my client is
17 MR. POTTS: It’s a little bit tenuous 17 violating a criminal statute.
18 in my -- 18 MR. POTTS: I’m not. I just want to
19 MS. RONAYNE: Well, I understand 19 know, he just played something off a recording and I
20 that’s your opinion. 20 don’t know where --
21 MR. POTTS: Well, it’s an objection. 21 MS. RONAYNE: He’s playing your
22 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 22 client’s --
23 MR. POTTS: But this -- there’s no 23 MR. POTTS: We don’t know that.
24 reason -- 24 MS. RONAYNE: -- vision that the Super
25 MS. RONAYNE: I understand you’ve got 25 Bowl was going to be won by the Broncos.

Page 111 Page 113

1 an ongoing -- 1 MR. POTTS: I don’t know that.
2 MR. POTTS: -- more than relevant. 2 MR. FRAZIER: Do you want me to again?
3 And I understand that, so, go ahead and answer. 3 MS. RONAYNE: Sure. Play it again.
4 MS. RONAYNE: Why -- 4 MR. POTTS: I don’t want to hear it.
5 MR. POTTS: There’s got to be a point 5 MS. RONAYNE: Well, then don’t --
6 in time where this becomes argumentative, and 6 MR. POTTS: His presentation --
7 therefore we’re wasting time. 7 (WHEREUPON, audio recording plays
8 MS. RONAYNE: Right. 8 again.)
9 MR. POTTS: Time is money, and I have 9 MR. POTTS: It is playing. You know,
10 no objection. No opinion -- 10 we don’t have to do this.
11 MS. RONAYNE: I understand. 11 MS. RONAYNE: Well, you’re -- and he’s
12 MR. POTTS: --we’re trying to be as 12 showing you what he -- what is --
13 accommodating as we can, but, you know, I -- I could 13 MR. POTTS: I don’t care what he’s
14 say they pass the plate in my church and they take 14 playing.
15 collections, and I know they do it in the Catholic 15 THE WITNESS: It’s fine. I mean, it’s
16 churches. 16 old.
17 MS. RONAYNE: I’m not asking you and 17 MR. POTTS: It’s fine. I believe we
18 you haven’t taken -- 18 don’t --
19 MR. POTTS: Your opinion is -- 19 MS. RONAYNE: He just said it happens
20 MS. RONAYNE: -- $1.4 million from a 20 to be me that was shown the dreams in this.
21 woman who has now -- 21 THE WITNESS: I didn’t say that. You
22 MR. POTTS: But you know what -- 22 didn’t --
23 MS. RONAYNE: Turn that down. 23 MR. POTTS: You know what?
24 (WHEREUPON, an audio recording begins 24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 to play.) 25 MR. POTTS: Don’t.
 30 (Pages 114 to 117)
Page 114 Page 116
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 1 right now.
2 MR. POTTS: Don’t be argumentative. 2 Q You don’t know the scripture?
3 THE WITNESS: I won’t. 3 A I do know them but I can’t give you point and verse,
4 MR. POTTS: You’re not supposed to ask 4 I’ve got to go through the Concordance and show you
5 questions. 5 where they are.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 Q So you wouldn’t say it’s a false prophet to go on the
7 MR. POTTS: You answer, no matter how 7 Internet and claim to have heard from God what the
8 absurd -- 8 outcome of something was going to be and -- and have
9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 it be completely wrong, and that’s not a false
10 MR. POTTS: -- tangential -- 10 prophecy?
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 A No. That’s a false prophecy, but not a false
12 MR. POTTS: -- elongated, irrelevant, 12 prophet.
13 or otherwise burdensome they are. 13 Q Okay. So people can make a lot of false prophecies
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 and you don’t think they’re false prophets?
15 MR. POTTS: You just answer the 15 A And the reason why I would believe that is because,
16 questions and we’ll move through this. 16 you know, there are people who are sincere and
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 they’re trying to hear from God and they can miss God
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 according to where the development of their gift is
19 Q Okay. What’s a false prophet? 19 so.
20 A Well, first of all, what a false prophet is not is 20 Q Okay. So let’s -- we were doing this in the last
21 not someone who won’t miss the prophecy. 21 deposition about -- in your book you state you have
22 Q I’m sorry. What? 22 seen Jesus face-to-face a thousand times.
23 A A false prophet -- 23 A Mm-hmm.
24 Q You had a lot of negatives in there. 24 Q In your last deposition you could only state a couple
25 A No. I said a false prophet is not somebody who don’t 25 and they were in a dream. So how many times have you

Page 115 Page 117

1 miss a prophecy, number one, that’s what they’re not. 1 actually seen Jesus?
2 What they are is someone who have deviated from 2 A I don’t --
3 following God, that’s the real meaning of a false 3 Q Face-to-face?
4 prophet. 4 A I don’t know. It’s just been so many times over 20
5 Q According to you? 5 years.
6 A No. According to the Bible. 6 Q Tell me what happens when you see Jesus face-to-face?
7 Q The Bible says that’s what a false prophet is? 7 A Well --
8 A Yes. Anyone who deviates from following God and 8 Q Has it been over a thousand times?
9 misleading people to follow the Lord. They don’t say 9 A It’s been -- yes. Many times.
10 that a false prophet is someone who don’t have false 10 Q Pardon me?
11 -- because obviously a lot false prophets have -- 11 A Yes.
12 Q No, not false. But people that claim to know things, 12 Q It’s been over a thousand times?
13 for example, in the future who is going to win a 13 A Yes.
14 Super Bowl and are wrong, isn’t that a false prophet? 14 Q Okay. So when you see Jesus face-to-face, describe
15 A No, that’s not what the Bible preaches. Mm-uh. 15 where -- give me an example of one.
16 Q What does the Bible teach on that? 16 A Well, I mean, when I first saw him in a dream in --
17 A The Bible just teaches that a false prophet is 17 at 17 in the 12th grade year.
18 someone who do not turn people to God. 18 Q Okay. The next one?
19 Q And what cite do you have for that? 19 A I mean, what do you want? How many do you want me to
20 A I’m sorry. 20 list?
21 Q What cite -- what biblical cite, you said it’s in the 21 Q As many as you can.
22 Bible. 22 A There’s so many. Many, many different times I can’t
23 A It’s in the Bible. 23 really go through all of them, but it’s just --
24 Q Right. Where? 24 Q So many times you can’t list them? Give me another
25 A If you read -- I can’t give you all the scriptures 25 example.
 31 (Pages 118 to 121)
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1 A I mean, my book “Face-to-Face” lists a lot of them 1 A What are you saying again? What context? Are you
2 so. 2 talking about when he comes to me or if he’s separate
3 Q Well, you wrote the book, I assume? 3 going to them personal? What are you saying? What
4 A Yes. 4 are you saying?
5 Q Okay. So tell me what’s in the book. How many 5 Q I’m saying when the two of you are talking and having
6 places and times have you seen them? Are they always 6 your -- your visit and someone else walks in, will
7 dreams? 7 they see him?
8 A A lot of them are dreams. 8 A Oh, yeah, I mean, it’s possible. But that didn’t
9 Q Do you ever sit down in communication with him? 9 happen so.
10 A Usually we’re standing in the dream. He’s relaying a 10 Q It’s never happened that someone else saw him while
11 message to me. 11 you were seeing him?
12 Q Only in dreams? 12 A No.
13 A Mostly in dreams. 13 Q So no one else could verify this?
14 Q What about the clouds? 14 A No.
15 A Yes. Well, not from the clouds, you know, I never 15 Q So give me an example of where you were and what
16 say he spoke to me from the cloud. 16 approximate time, very specifically, when you saw him
17 Q Never in the clouds? 17 face-to-face in the physical realm.
18 A No. In dreams in the physical realm here. 18 A Well, I can’t give you a time. I just know I was in
19 Q From the physical realm here. So tell me about 19 the church and --
20 those. 20 Q What church?
21 A Well, he just comes unannounced and then he tells me 21 A A church in Port Huron I go to to pray. So it was --
22 what he wants to say and then he leaves. 22 Q What’s the name of that --
23 Q So you’re saying he -- he sits in the physical realm 23 A -- in 2010. New Covenant Fellowship.
24 with you and talks to you? 24 Q And what happened?
25 A Not sit. 25 A Well, he just appeared to me and told me, you know, a

Page 119 Page 121

1 Q Stands. He stands in a room with you and converses 1 few things that he wanted me to share with his
2 in the physical realm? 2 people.
3 A (Indicating.) 3 Q And what is that?
4 Q You have to answer out loud. 4 A There’s just so much, you want to sit here and listen
5 A Yes, mm-hmm. 5 to the whole thing?
6 Q Tell me what that’s about. Where did that occur? 6 Q Sure. Yeah.
7 A Just different places if I’m fasting and praying in 7 A Yeah, well, basically, you know, just certain
8 the church. He does it just like he did Paul in the 8 spiritual laws concerning the word of God, his word.
9 Bible, came in the physical realm and talk to -- 9 Q What does that mean?
10 Q So you’re equating yourself with Paul in the Bible? 10 A Well, it’s factors about using his power to love
11 A No, not equating. 11 people that -- to help them basically.
12 Q Okay. 12 Q Have there been any physical encounters since 2010?
13 A It’s just -- I’m equating the same experience, not 13 A Yes, there has.
14 the same person. 14 Q And when’s that?
15 Q Okay. So give me an example of where it occurred and 15 A In ’12.
16 when, that you saw him in the physical presence like 16 Q Okay.
17 you just said. 17 A Okay.
18 A Well, I just shared with you when I’m fasting and 18 Q Where was that?
19 praying in the church. 19 A It was also in the church.
20 Q He comes in? 20 Q Which church?
21 A He has. 21 A The same church.
22 Q Has anybody else seen him? 22 Q The Port Huron church?
23 A No, I’m by myself. 23 A Mm-hmm.
24 Q So nobody else can see him or they just didn’t happen 24 Q And what occurred there?
25 to see him? 25 A Basically him sharing another message of what he
 32 (Pages 122 to 125)
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1 wanted me to share. 1 time?
2 Q And what is that? 2 A Yeah, she works full-time.
3 A This one was different, it was more concerning what 3 Q And who is Christian Ware?
4 he wanted me to do in America. 4 A That’s their child.
5 Q And what did he want you to do in America? 5 Q And how old is that child?
6 A Basically to hold crusades and to tell people about 6 A I’m not sure. I don’t know.
7 the Gospel and what he did for them 2,000 years ago. 7 Q Infant or teenager? In between?
8 Q So this was a big vision that he shared with you? 8 A No. I know he’s definitely not a teenager. Young,
9 A Yes. 9 very young so.
10 Q And you were standing up in the church in Port Huron? 10 Q And who is Clifton Ware?
11 A Well, I was on my knees, but, yes. 11 A That’s her husband.
12 Q But I thought you both stood up? 12 Q Are you related to them?
13 A I told you he stands. 13 A No.
14 MS. RONAYNE: Oh, okay. We got to 14 Q No -- no biological relation?
15 stop. 15 A No.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 Q Did they live with you in 2013?
17 MS. RONAYNE: He’s changing the disc. 17 A No, not in ’13. No.
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 18 Q When -- did they live with you at any time?
19 record, it is 12:57 p.m. 19 A Yes. They did when they first came and that was more
20 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was held at 20 in 2008, ’09. Somewhere around there.
21 12:57 p.m. to 12:58 p.m.) 21 Q What do you mean when they --
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 22 A When they first came --
23 record, it is 12:58 p.m. 23 Q First came from where?
24 MS. RONAYNE: I just inquired what 24 A From Cleveland, Ohio, and I helped them out and their
25 people wanted to do in terms of lunch, it’s one 25 children.

Page 123 Page 125

1 o’clock. Mr. Potts, do you have any -- 1 Q Children or one?
2 MR. POTTS: I suggest we be back here 2 A Well, they had more than one so.
3 at two o’clock. 3 Q And so they lived with you?
4 MS. RONAYNE: I don’t object. Okay. 4 A Yeah.
5 That’s fine. 5 Q In your apartment?
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 6 A Yes.
7 record, it is 12:58 p.m. 7 Q The two bedroom apartment?
8 (WHEREUPON, a recess was held at 12:58 8 A Mm-hmm.
9 p.m. to 2:29 p.m.) 9 Q You have to answer yes.
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 10 A Yes, mm-hmm.
11 record. It is 2:29 p.m. 11 Q Along with your two children?
12 MS. RONAYNE: Mr. Taylor, you are 12 A Well, you know, my two children weren’t there every
13 still under oath. 13 day so -- according to the court order.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 Q So --
15 MS. RONAYNE: You understand? 15 A So I have my children half the week.
16 MR. POTTS: Can you hold ten seconds 16 Q So where would these folks stay every day?
17 so I can sign this and him have maybe -- I can wait. 17 A Well, they had -- I also had other friends in the
18 MS. RONAYNE: Go ahead. I don’t care. 18 city that I allowed them to go stay with and they
19 (WHEREUPON, a brief pause was held on 19 opened their home --
20 the record.) 20 Q You allowed them to go?
21 BY MS. RONAYNE: 21 A When they opened their home to them.
22 Q Mr. Taylor, who is Ashely Ware? 22 Q What do you mean you allowed them to go?
23 A She’s a volunteer staff that works in the ministry on 23 A You just misworded it.
24 the side. 24 Q Okay.
25 Q She’s a volunteer. Does she work full-time or part- 25 A Mm-hmm.
 33 (Pages 126 to 129)
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1 Q On your 2012 tax return -- or who’s Brooklyn 1 Q Okay. So these folks -- none of those four folks
2 Mitchell? 2 lived with you in 2012?
3 A Brooklyn? I don’t know. 3 A That’s not true.
4 Q You don’t remember who Brooklyn Mitchell is? 4 Q And in 2013?
5 A No, mm-uh. 5 A I don’t -- I don’t remember. I don’t know which --
6 Q You have no idea? 6 what I’m looking at so I can’t answer this.
7 A No. 7 Q What’s your -- okay. Okay.
8 Q Never heard of that person? 8 A I can’t answer it.
9 A No. Brooklyn Mitchell? Nope. 9 Q It’s 1040 U.S. Individual Income Tax Return 2012 --
10 Q On your 2012 tax return you claimed Brooklyn Mitchell 10 A I know --
11 as a dependent through an exemption. 11 Q -- is it not?
12 A No, I don’t think that’s true or accurate. 12 A Yes, I know what this is.
13 Q Well, this is what you gave us today. 13 Q And this was given to me --
14 A Yeah. Or it’s -- I don’t know if it’s -- that must 14 A Mm-hmm.
15 be someone -- I don’t know who that is. Michelle 15 Q -- by your attorney today.
16 probably can answer that. I’m not sure about this 16 A Okay.
17 because I don’t do my own taxes so. But I did carry 17 Q And on it it has these four dependency exemptions,
18 them because I supported them that year so. I mean, 18 does it not?
19 I know I carried -- supported Clifton and his wife 19 A Yes.
20 and their children. I helped them. 20 Q Brooklyn, Christian, Ashley, and Clifton?
21 Q But you have no idea who Brooklyn Mitchell is? 21 A Yes.
22 A No, I don’t -- I don’t know that name and I don’t 22 Q Okay. And you’re telling me you have no idea who
23 know why that’s there so -- it could be something 23 Brooklyn Mitchell is?
24 that I’m not aware of. 24 A No. I -- it may be a name in there -- I don’t know
25 Q You wouldn’t be aware that they were one of your 25 if I know their nickname or whatever, I’m just

Page 127 Page 129

1 exemptions and dependencies? 1 telling you I don’t know, so I’m not going to answer
2 A Well, I don’t know. I didn’t handle that so I would 2 anymore on that.
3 rather you ask her about that. Michelle. 3 Q All right. So who was it that you support? What is
4 Q Ask her about your personal tax return? 4 it that you do to support these people then?
5 A Yes. 5 A Well, I mean, they didn’t have a job, they didn’t
6 Q And -- 6 have nowhere to stay so I provided food and clothing,
7 A I don’t fill them out. 7 shelter, for them.
8 Q You said that Christian, Ashely, and Clifton did not 8 (WHEREUPON, a cell phone begins
9 live with you in 2012? 9 ringing.)
10 A No. Not in ’12, I don’t think. I’m not sure. I 10 MS. RONAYNE: I don’t know whose
11 can’t -- maybe my days are mixed up so I’m not 11 phone that is.
12 accurate. 12 THE WITNESS: That’s mine.
13 Q Well, you said it was back in ’08 and ’09, not ’12. 13 BY MS. RONAYNE:
14 A I know -- I know it was ’08, ’09 -- I can remember 14 Q So you provided to these four people food, clothing,
15 those times. Yeah. 15 and shelter?
16 Q But you, under oath, claimed all these people as your 16 A Mm-hmm.
17 exemptions? 17 Q You have to answer yes or no.
18 A Of course. 18 A Yes, mm-hmm.
19 Q Brooklyn -- of course? 19 Q On your salary?
20 A Well, no, I mean, whatever happened in this was under 20 A Yes.
21 oath and it was the truth, so, like I say, you need 21 Q And your salary is listed as $28,897.
22 to go ask Michelle about this. 22 A Yes, mm-hmm.
23 Q No, I mean, it’s your life. You’re -- hold on. 23 Q And on that salary you’re saying you supported these
24 A It may be mine, but I have somebody taking care of 24 four people?
25 this part. 25 A Yes.
 34 (Pages 130 to 133)
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1 Q These four people? 1 A Pay their rent? I mean, they were living with me, so
2 A Yes. 2 I --
3 Q Including Brooklyn, who you don’t know? 3 Q Not in 2012 you say or ’13, that was in ’08 and ’09.
4 A Yes. I don’t -- like I say, I can’t answer certain 4 A No, I don’t pay their rent. No.
5 things at this time because someone takes care of my 5 Q So you don’t pay their rent.
6 1040. But, you know, I have money saved up, you 6 A Mm-uh.
7 know, so I can -- I can spend that money on helping 7 Q Do you give them a check for some funds?
8 other people if I want. 8 A No.
9 Q How is the money saved up after you’re earning 9 Q No check?
10 28,000? Where do you get money to save up? 10 A Mm-uh.
11 A Well, I save money from my paycheck so, so. 11 Q No check, cash, but not large amounts, you don’t pay
12 Q Is that because the ministry covers most of your 12 their rent. Do you buy them food?
13 overhead? 13 A Yes, mm-hmm.
14 A Yeah. 14 Q When do you buy food? How does that work? Do you
15 Q With your allowances? 15 give them money or do you go out and do their grocery
16 A That’s the -- that’s the -- that’s the blessing of 16 shopping?
17 non-profit ministry. 17 A No, I just give them money.
18 Q Is what? 18 Q Cash?
19 A They let -- allow for different allowances that even 19 A My card. Bank card.
20 though my salary may be low, I still can have a 20 Q Credit cards?
21 little bit extra to help a family like that so. 21 A Banking, debit card or -- you know, but when are you
22 Q But your allowances, like your -- your car allowance 22 saying I do this because I don’t do this now.
23 and your housing allowances, those are taxable to 23 Q Well, this was 2012 and 2013.
24 you, aren’t they? 24 A Okay. You keep asking me for those years.
25 MR. POTTS: If he knows. He’s not an 25 Q Right.

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1 expert. 1 A You’re asking --
2 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. Yeah, I 2 Q When you claimed them.
3 don’t know all that stuff. 3 A Yeah, well, that’s probably the way I did it when I
4 BY MS. RONAYNE: 4 did do it.
5 Q Do you report those on your taxes? 5 Q That’s probably the way you did it?
6 A I don’t know if I’m supposed to. I don’t know. 6 A Maybe. I have cash. I have debit -- debit card.
7 Q You have no idea? Well, you signed -- 7 Q You would hand them your debit card?
8 A I have other people handle this for me. 8 A Yeah.
9 Q But you sign your tax returns, don’t you? 9 Q To go spend?
10 A I have to, don’t I? I think, yeah. 10 A Yeah.
11 Q Okay. And you sign them and you’re not sure of what 11 Q Okay. And how much do you think they used on your
12 they mean? 12 debit card?
13 A Not so much. I have professional people who know 13 A I don’t know.
14 what they’re doing so. 14 Q Was it your personal debit card or JMMI’s?
15 Q Who would the professional people be? 15 A Most likely it was my personal card.
16 A I don’t know, you can ask Michelle. 16 Q Most likely, but maybe not?
17 Q She knows who prepares your taxes? 17 A Yes. No, I think it was my personal card.
18 A Yes. 18 Q Not JMMI’s?
19 Q Do you keep receipts for all the expenditures that 19 A Mm-uh.
20 you say you have for these folks? These followers? 20 Q You have to answer yes or no.
21 A I’m not sure. I’m not positive. 21 A The only time they used JMMI card is on ministry
22 Q When you give them support, do you give them cash? 22 business, and they were handling a lot of ministry
23 A I have helped them with cash before, but nothing 23 business so that’s separate.
24 large, no. 24 Q So were they being given money from the ministry’s
25 Q Do you pay their rent? 25 debit card if they were doing ministry business?
 35 (Pages 134 to 137)
Page 134 Page 136
1 A Yeah, of course. And any time any volunteer does 1 percent of their support?
2 anything on the ministry business, you know, they are 2 A Mm-hmm.
3 able to -- like if they are going out of town, 3 Q So you claimed them as exemptions but you can’t tell
4 whatever, they’re able to buy food because the 4 me how?
5 ministry takes care of all those expenses. It’s 5 A Actually, I will like to say I don’t know, ask
6 normal. 6 Michelle. That’s all I will --
7 Q So the ministry does but not you personally? 7 Q She would know what you spent daily on these folks?
8 A Like I said, on ministry business, that’s when the 8 A They will know because they handle all my personal
9 card is used. 9 and ministry stuff.
10 Q Okay. 10 Q Who’s they, when you say they?
11 A When it’s something personal, I’ve helped them with 11 A Well, I mean, Michelle handles all personal and
12 my own money. 12 ministry so.
13 Q So are you saying that you provided more than 50 13 Q How much have you personally donated to JMMI in the
14 percent of the support for these four people? 14 last five years?
15 A I -- yeah, of course. I mean, they didn’t have 15 MR. POTTS: If you know.
16 nowhere to stay, nothing -- 16 BY MS. RONAYNE:
17 Q But you didn’t pay their rent? Do you know where 17 Q Approximately, that’s okay.
18 they were living? 18 A I don’t -- I don’t really know. Yeah, I can’t say,
19 A Pay their rent? What are you saying? 19 from all the sacrifices I can’t say.
20 Q I asked you if you paid their rent and you said no. 20 Q What does that mean from all the sacrifices?
21 A No, I mean, they live with me, right. Are you 21 A I mean, the sacrifices of, you know, giving up
22 talking about the times that they live with me? 22 things.
23 Q I’m only talking about ’12 and ’13? 23 Q No, no. I’m talking about financially, not --
24 A Oh, okay. No, no, of course not. I don’t -- 24 A Oh, no.
25 Q Of course not, what? 25 MR. POTTS: Money.

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1 A I don’t -- I didn’t pay their rent -- 1 THE WITNESS: So -- no, I can’t tell
2 Q Okay. 2 you.
3 A -- from my -- 3 BY MS. RONAYNE:
4 Q But to claim them you have to provide a certain level 4 Q But you do tell people how much you’ve given, don’t
5 of support. So are you saying that you spent or -- 5 you?
6 I’m sorry -- that you supported them in more than 50 6 A I have told them the sacrifices I’ve made.
7 percent of their expenses? 7 Q You put a dollar amount on that, haven’t you?
8 A It has to be if it’s on that thing. 8 A Oh, sometimes I -- I’ve given up -- yes, I’ve told
9 Q But you can’t tell me how or anything about it? 9 them that over years I have given a large sum of
10 A Yeah, I don’t handle all those things anymore. I’m 10 money to this ministry.
11 -- I’m totally out of that, so I would rather you ask 11 Q Okay. So what sum of money do you say when you do
12 someone who knows. I’d rather just say to you I 12 that?
13 don’t know so there’s no proprietorship of me -- 13 A Well, you said in dollar amount. I’m talking about
14 MR. POTTS: There’s a tax preparer 14 sacrifices.
15 name on the return. 15 Q No, you put a dollar amount on it when you talk.
16 BY MS. RONAYNE: 16 A I know, because it is a dollar amount.
17 Q Okay. But what I’m -- what I’m trying to figure out 17 Q Okay. So, then, tell me what dollar amount you use
18 -- and I don’t want to depose him. I want to just 18 when you tell people?
19 get a handle on this. You’re saying that this is not 19 A Oh, millions. I’ve given up millions for this.
20 JMMI expenditures? 20 Q Given up --
21 A Mm-hmm. 21 A Sacrifices.
22 Q These are personal expenditures that you 22 Q -- or -- oh, only in sacrifice?
23 personally -- 23 A In sacrifice, yes.
24 A No. 24 Q Millions?
25 Q Let me finish. That you personally paid more than 50 25 A Yes.
 36 (Pages 138 to 141)
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1 Q How do you arrive at that figure? 1 and you say write it to the ministry, and then you
2 A Well, I mean, from the opportunities I’ve had to do 2 get credit for that donation as does the person who
3 other things and that kind of thing. 3 made it?
4 Q That would have paid you over a million -- that would 4 A Well, you know, that’s my personal way of showing
5 have paid you millions? 5 also contribution. But people who want to give me
6 A Way more than millions. 6 money personally for my life and I just tell them to
7 Q Really? 7 give it to the ministry.
8 A Yes, of course. 8 Q Do you report that as gift income to you?
9 Q What kinds of things would those be? 9 A No, because I tell them to write it out to the
10 A Well, for number one, I’m a chef. I completed my -- 10 ministry.
11 in college, a degree, and so I could, number one, 11 Q So how do you come up with $42,000 that you donated
12 have my own business, like my brother, who’s a chef, 12 when it didn’t come from you, it came from a third-
13 does, and that alone could bring -- 13 party?
14 Q Is he a millionaire? 14 A Well, we use those records to show. But I am, you
15 A No, but -- 15 know, besides my ties and offerings that I give out
16 Q Chef’s usually aren’t. 16 of my paycheck to show just, kind of what, is being
17 A That’s if they don’t write books and do multiple 17 given to me on a yearly basis or presented to me
18 chains. There’s a way you can do it where I know a 18 actually. So, you know, sometimes it’s higher or
19 lot of my friends can have different -- 19 lower but --
20 Q But you said you’ve said -- you used the word donate, 20 Q Do people come up and give you cash?
21 you haven’t used the word sacrifice. When you’re 21 A No.
22 talking on your -- 22 Q Never cash?
23 A well, that’s what I -- 23 A No.
24 Q Wait, let me finish. 24 Q Do they write a check out to you, David Taylor?
25 A Okay. 25 A They have, but I don’t receive it. I tell them to

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1 Q When you’re talking on your radio or your conference 1 scratch it out and write it in the ministry’s name.
2 call or up on stage, you say, “I have donated 2 Q But then you get credit for the $42,000?
3 millions to JMMI.” 3 A To show that I -- I channel that money there instead
4 A That’s right. 4 of to myself.
5 Q But you’re not talking dollar amount? 5 Q So you’re saying you don’t accept cash?
6 A No. And the people know what I’m talking about. 6 A No.
7 Q Oh, you think they understand? 7 Q If somebody were to give cash who would it go to?
8 A Oh, because I’ve explained, of course. You can’t 8 A JMMI.
9 just listen to one show that I do and expect to 9 Q Personally? I mean --
10 understand what I’m saying if you don’t follow -- 10 A JMMI.
11 Q Well, I’ve listened to more than one show. 11 Q But who?
12 A Well, you’ve got to listen to more than three, four, 12 A The offering bucket. Offering place. I don’t --
13 20 or a hundred to hear everything, yeah. 13 Q Well, if somebody’s going to give you $5,000 in cash,
14 Q The JMMI contribution report for 2013 shows that you 14 who would that be handed to?
15 donated $42,000 to JMMI in 2013. Is that true? 15 A The people who take up the money and count the money,
16 A If that’s what the report says. 16 and that could be anybody.
17 Q How can you donate more than you actually have made 17 Q What if it wasn’t -- do you think -- I’m not talking
18 in the last several years after a bankruptcy? 18 about somebody putting in a donation bucket.
19 A Because in this kind of ministry people will walk up 19 A Yeah.
20 to me and want to give me personal gifts of this 20 Q I’m talking about somebody who’s got $5,000 cash and
21 amount of money and I give it over to the ministry 21 they want to give it to JMMI. Who would be the
22 instead of receiving it, and I have them write it out 22 person that would be designated to receive that kind
23 to the ministry instead of me. 23 of donation?
24 Q So you’re saying that if -- isn’t that a double dip 24 A Well, our financial committee, Michele is over that
25 if you’re saying that people go up and give you money 25 so you could just say her. Her.
 37 (Pages 142 to 145)
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1 Q So Michelle would be who was designated to receive 1 A Just that she wanted to donate and that she had given
2 cash donations of a large amount? 2 the wire and that kind of thing.
3 A Yeah, to put it in the ministry. Yeah. That’s 3 Q And so, then, you talked to Debbie?
4 really -- I don’t know how to answer that question. 4 A Yeah.
5 Q Why? 5 Q And what did you say to Debbie?
6 A I really don’t, because mostly it don’t -- people 6 A I just told her thank you and I was -- I did, you
7 don’t give like that. They give in to the offering 7 know, the ministry would appreciate that.
8 plate. They never give it to us personally. They 8 Q Did you inquire of her the source of those funds?
9 give in to our envelopes and they -- or if they’re 9 A No, because I never usually do that when people give
10 going to put cash, they give it in the bucket. So, 10 money like that.
11 honestly, I think we should scratch that. We’ve 11 Q Would it be a concern to you if it meant that she was
12 never received money like that. The money we receive 12 ultimately going to be homeless in the next year?
13 comes through donation plates, and then it’s taken in 13 Would it be a concern to you?
14 the back and counted and deposited in the ministry. 14 A Of course, I would never have allowed that. I didn’t
15 Q So it would have to be at a service? 15 find out until afterwards.
16 A Yes. 16 Q What did you find out?
17 Q So when Debbie gave you a couple -- you know, 1.2 17 A I just -- what you was telling me, you know
18 million or wherever we are on that, she did it at a 18 (indicating).
19 service? 19 Q What Mr. Potts shared with you?
20 A I don’t -- I don’t recall. I’m not quite sure when 20 A Mm-hmm, right.
21 -- I know she gave a wire. 21 Q Anybody else?
22 Q Yeah. 22 A Rick, of course, came up to me in the first court
23 A What I know it’s a wire so. 23 proceedings and started saying stuff like that but I
24 Q A wire transfer? 24 didn’t believe him because of his kind of spirited
25 A Yeah. And people -- 25 character, yeah, so I didn’t really take nothing he

Page 143 Page 145

1 Q So how -- 1 said true. But when Mr. Potts shared with me certain
2 A People do that all the time in our ministry. 2 things because I did -- I saw this whatever had
3 Q So how would that be that that would be set up? Who 3 happened.
4 would be doing that at your ministry? 4 Q And what was your understanding of what had happened?
5 A I know Michelle is over that. 5 A That she had donated a large sum and she gave a lot
6 Q So did you talk to Debbie about this wire transfer? 6 of money that she didn’t really -- a lot of it she
7 A No, Michelle. 7 didn’t have to give. I mean, besides the stuff she
8 Q You had no conversation with Debbie about that? 8 has to pay for.
9 A No. 9 Q I’m sorry. Say that again.
10 Q Did you ever request or in any way talk to Debbie 10 A I said that I found out that she gave a lot of her
11 about contributions to the ministry? 11 money that she didn’t have to give, she couldn’t
12 A No. I mean, I talk to everybody who comes to the 12 afford a lot of that.
13 meeting about that, so that will be yes. 13 Q Did Debbie ever talk to you about her finances?
14 Q Well, other than at the general meeting, did you have 14 A No. That’s the thing, I --
15 any smaller group conversations with her about money? 15 Q Did she ever talk to Michelle, if you know?
16 A Really, no. 16 A No.
17 Q None? 17 Q Did you have any understanding of what her financial
18 A No, not that I know of. Other than when she had 18 wherewithal was?
19 already given money and that she wanted to give so I 19 A No, I sure didn’t.
20 had Michelle finish up talking to her about that. 20 Q Do you understand there’s a court order that says she
21 Q So you did talk to her after she had given money? 21 can’t give any money to JMMI or any other --
22 A Yeah, mm-hmm. I wanted to know what was going on and 22 MR. POTTS: If you know.
23 so Michelle filled me in and I talked with her 23 MS. RONAYNE: I said did you know.
24 briefly, you know. 24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 Q So what did Michelle tell you? 25 BY MS. RONAYNE:
 38 (Pages 146 to 149)
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1 Q You are aware of the court order? 1 A No.
2 A No. 2 Q Do you know if she told Michelle?
3 Q The court order says she can’t give you any money. 3 A I don’t know. You can ask Michelle.
4 A No, that’s just what’s -- 4 Q All right. Given -- and you understand that Mrs.
5 Q No, it’s been in effect for a long time. 5 Frazier cashed out about $600,000 in retirement
6 A Okay. No, I didn’t know that. 6 assets that generated a very significant IRS bill?
7 Q Okay. She didn’t tell you that? 7 Are you aware of that?
8 A No. 8 A No. After he told me.
9 Q Did Debbie tell you that she was not seeing her 9 Q You weren’t aware of it before then?
10 children or severely cut back seeing her children 10 A No, of course not.
11 based on her finances? 11 Q But you’re now aware that she’s got a big IRS bill?
12 A No. 12 A Yeah, I would never have let her give that if I knew
13 Q She didn’t share anything about that with you? 13 that.
14 A The only thing I found out through Michelle, that she 14 Q Were you aware at one time she owned her house free
15 had told Michelle is just that what her ex-husband 15 and clear?
16 was doing to her. 16 A No.
17 Q And what was that? 17 Q Are you aware that because she’s given everything
18 A Well, basically trying -- just keeping her from the 18 else away that she now has a significant mortgage
19 children, took them with a written order. 19 that means she doesn’t have any equity in her house
20 Q You understand he can’t do that personally but the 20 anymore?
21 court has to issue orders? 21 A I think I heard from Mr. Potts or Michelle, one, that
22 MR. POTTS: Irrelevant. 22 she’s, I guess, got a lot of credit off her home to
23 THE WITNESS: (Inaudible). 23 pay lawyers through what the situation that her ex-
24 MS. RONAYNE: Well -- 24 husband has taken up. So that’s -- that’s all I know
25 MR. POTTS: Who cares. That’s -- 25 about that.

Page 147 Page 149

1 MS. RONAYNE: No, I want his 1 Q Do you know she also had to pay taxes, though, on
2 understanding. 2 these?
3 MR. POTTS: For what purpose? 3 A Yeah, I would never have let her give that to the
4 MS. RONAYNE: So that Debbie doesn’t 4 ministry if I had known she’d pay taxes. I teach
5 repeat -- 5 people to pay taxes, pay their taxes to the
6 MR. POTTS: Debbie’s not on trial 6 government so.
7 here. 7 Q That’s one of your tenants?
8 MS. RONAYNE: No. He said -- 8 A Hmm?
9 MR. POTTS: He’s not on trial here. 9 Q That’s one of your tenants, to pay your taxes?
10 MS. RONAYNE: It’s not about trial. 10 A Yes, mm-hmm.
11 MR. POTTS: What’s it for? 11 Q Would you accept any more money from Debbie Frazier?
12 BY MS. RONAYNE: 12 A No.
13 Q Do you understand there are court orders issued from 13 Q You would not?
14 the Judge about Debbie’s parenting time? 14 A No.
15 MR. POTTS: If you know. 15 Q Going forward?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t. I’m not 16 A Right.
17 involved in that. 17 Q Have you told her that?
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 A Of course. I mean, since I found this out I had a
19 Q So you were led to believe that somehow her ex- 19 phone conversation and just told her, you know, to --
20 husband Rick is doing this? 20 I just asked her why she didn’t tell us, you know,
21 A Yeah. 21 all of these things.
22 Q Okay. Did Debbie ever tell you that she had violated 22 Q And what’d she say?
23 court orders? 23 A She just felt like she didn’t feel like she needed to
24 A No, I don’t know. 24 tell me anything. She just felt led to give the
25 Q She didn’t tell you anything about that? 25 money so.
 39 (Pages 150 to 153)
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1 Q So you called her on her cell phone or house phone? 1 A No, I haven’t seen them around at all.
2 A No. I had my -- Michelle called her for me and 2 Q Did you meet with the children?
3 patched me in. 3 A Meet with them? What do you mean?
4 Q Okay. So you and Michelle were sort of on a 4 Q Did you have conversations with them?
5 conference call with her? 5 MR. POTTS: Ever.
6 A Yeah, mm-hmm. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. They came to
7 Q Okay. 7 the church so, yeah, at -- at the church, say hello
8 A Just recently. 8 and --
9 Q When would that have been? 9 BY MS. RONAYNE:
10 A Maybe in the last week or two, something like that. 10 Q What else? What was the conversation?
11 Q So you had a conversation where you told Debbie 11 A That’s about it, just hello and just greeting them
12 you’re not going to take any more money from her? 12 like I’ve greeted others.
13 A Yeah. Well, I don’t think I worded it like that, but 13 Q Did you talk to them about face-to-face visits with
14 I told her that she shouldn’t have -- she should have 14 Jesus?
15 communicated better with her financial situation and 15 A In a meeting?
16 if she had bills to pay, like the IRS and things like 16 Q No. With them?
17 that, I wouldn’t have never taken the money in the 17 A No.
18 first place if I had known that information. 18 Q No?
19 Especially that I’m now -- even if she wanted to 19 A Mm-uh.
20 donate, I would have told her don’t give this amount, 20 Q You have to answer yes or no.
21 you need to keep some for your life and that kind of 21 A No.
22 thing. 22 Q Did you give them any of your books or DVDs?
23 Q So if -- 23 A No.
24 A I don’t get involved in all of our contributors’ life 24 Q Did somebody else, if you know, from your ministry
25 like that. 25 maybe?

Page 151 Page 153

1 Q But when somebody gives you like a really big number, 1 A I don’t know what to say.
2 like over a million dollars, you don’t say to them, 2 Q Given that -- that Debbie is basically destitute, you
3 “Can you afford this?” 3 understand that?
4 A I really haven’t done that because I think it 4 A (Indicating).
5 probably would be wise now for this to start doing 5 Q You have to answer yes or no.
6 that. But usually people who are giving are very 6 A Yes, mm-hmm.
7 responsible and they can do it, you know, so I -- you 7 Q Okay.
8 know, caught me totally off guard. 8 MR. POTTS: Is that an assumption for
9 Q Do you realize there are court orders telling Debbie 9 the question he doesn’t know that except what you
10 Frazier that she cannot bring her children to St. 10 tell him what happened.
11 Louis and participate in JMMI ministries? 11 MS. RONAYNE: Right.
12 A I heard about that. Michelle told me about that. 12 BY MS. RONAYNE:
13 Q When was that? 13 Q Given that you understand from --
14 A That was some time ago, I can’t tell you when 14 MR. POTTS: Given this is separate --
15 exactly. 15 okay.
16 Q Ballpark it. This year? Last -- give me -- 16 BY MS. RONAYNE:
17 MR. POTTS: Don’t guess. 17 Q -- us, would those be circumstances under which you
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 would be willing to give Mrs. Frazier back some of
19 Q Just a ballpark. 19 her money?
20 A I just don’t know. 20 MR. POTTS: Object to the form of the
21 Q So you’re aware that she can’t bring the children to 21 question.
22 JMMI? 22 BY MS. RONAYNE:
23 A Yeah. 23 Q Go ahead.
24 Q And since you became aware of that, has she brought 24 A Say that again.
25 them? 25 MR. POTTS: Excuse me.
 40 (Pages 154 to 157)
Page 154 Page 156
1 BY MS. RONAYNE: 1 staying at her residence for overnight at least some
2 Q Given that you understand Mrs. Frazier to be 2 period of time?
3 destitute and it’s impacted her ability to have 3 A Yes, I did know. I had heard about that.
4 housing, her ability to see her children, under those 4 Q What had you heard?
5 circumstances, are you willing to give Mrs. Frazier 5 A Just that whatever -- have some come from St. Louis
6 back some of her money? 6 in town that she let them stay there for a day or
7 THE WITNESS: Should I answer this? 7 two.
8 MR. POTTS: Yes, you can go ahead and 8 Q Do you know how many people it would be at any given
9 answer. 9 time?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. You know, I’m sure 10 A Just one from what I knew.
11 that with the board -- I took what he told me back to 11 Q And that were the times, you understand, that at
12 the board concerning her present circumstance and I 12 times it would be when her children were having
13 would love to do that if we have the money, presently 13 parenting time with her, back when that was allowed?
14 we don’t. But I told them that I’m willing to -- if 14 A No.
15 the money comes in through what we raise to support 15 Q You didn’t know that?
16 and help her, of course. 16 A No.
17 BY MS. RONAYNE: 17 Q Now, when you came into town there were times whether
18 Q So would that mean you would give her a check back 18 or not that you used Deborah Frazier’s vehicle? Or
19 for some of the funds that she had given? 19 someone that was driving you used Deborah Frazier’s
20 A I don’t know how we would do it, but I will find out 20 vehicle?
21 the legal right way to do that and -- and issue her 21 A Maybe, I don’t know. I wasn’t aware.
22 that. 22 Q You weren’t aware of whose car you were driving?
23 Q Those funds? Issue those funds -- 23 A No. We rent cars when I come in so if they switched
24 A Yeah. 24 up the cars I wouldn’t know or -- I’m just going for
25 Q -- to her? 25 the ride wherever they take me.

Page 155 Page 157

1 MR. POTTS: Objection, form of the 1 Q You have no input about any of that?
2 question. First of all, he’s going to require 2 A I don’t handle that.
3 guidance professionally -- 3 Q So you wouldn’t recognize that you were repeatedly
4 MS. RONAYNE: I understand that. 4 driven in the car that was owned by -- the same car
5 MR. POTTS: -- on how he can, should 5 that was owned by Debbie Frazier?
6 otherwise collect the source. So the concept is fine 6 A Well, I know what her car looks like now. But what
7 to talk about specifics. He certainly -- 7 I’m saying is during those times I didn’t know. We
8 MS. RONAYNE: I’m not asking him to -- 8 rent cars when I come to town. They rent the cars
9 MR. POTTS: -- isn’t qualified to 9 for me.
10 answer those kinds of questions. 10 Q Did you think it was always the same car that got
11 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 rented?
12 BY MS. RONAYNE: 12 A It was usually different --
13 Q Has Debbie talked about relocating to St. Louis 13 Q Right.
14 recently with anyone that you know? 14 A -- you know, but they usually rent the same kind of
15 A Not that I know of. 15 car, too, so.
16 Q Has anybody talked to you about her oldest daughter 16 Q So you didn’t realize it was rather regularly just
17 going to college there? 17 Debbie’s car?
18 A No. 18 A Because I -- I was never in that car regularly.
19 Q Katie? Do you know if she’s talked to Michelle about 19 Q Did she ever drive you around?
20 that? 20 A No.
21 A I’m not sure. 21 Q When you say it’s up to the board, now the board
22 Q Are you aware that Debbie refers to JMMI in the 22 includes Michelle?
23 presence of the children as their second family? 23 A Yes.
24 A No. 24 Q You?
25 Q Are you aware that Debbie had people from JMMI 25 A Yes.
 41 (Pages 158 to 161)
Page 158 Page 160
1 Q And who else? 1 Q And if you knew she didn’t have any personal money or
2 A I’m not sure. You can ask Michelle. 2 it was taking away from her ability to support
3 Q You don’t know who’s on the board? 3 herself, would that be something you would provide
4 A Totally I would rather you get the accurate 4 for her?
5 information because I don’t want to be accused of 5 A Of course.
6 answering falsely like I have been other times when 6 Q Would you provide her with lodging in St. Louis?
7 I’ve tried to guess. So I just you’d rather -- I’m 7 A Of course.
8 telling you I don’t know, just ask her. 8 Q How would you do that?
9 Q How many people are on the board? 9 A Well, just like we provide that for others, you know,
10 A I don’t know. Just -- 10 who -- if they’re on a ministry trip, that’s if
11 Q You don’t know? 11 they’re under the ministry (inaudible) take care of
12 A No. 12 their expenses.
13 Q Don’t you have to have board meetings? 13 Q So if Debbie Frazier moved to St. Louis would you pay
14 A Yes, we do have board meetings. 14 for her residence there?
15 Q So can’t you count around the table how many people 15 A No, we don’t do that. I won’t pay for anybody’s
16 there are? 16 residence to move. They have to get a job or, you
17 A Well, our board also grows at the same time. So I 17 know, if they’re going to relocate, that’s not our
18 just rather you just get that information from her. 18 responsibility, the ministry encourages that.
19 Q The last time you had a board meeting was when? 19 Q But it was for -- you said for the Ware Family?
20 A I was on the phone, I think the beginning -- it was 20 A No, it wasn’t. They just -- they didn’t have nowhere
21 in the beginning of the year in January. I can’t 21 to stay for a few days or however long we were
22 exactly tell the date, but -- 22 helping them. But then I found out they didn’t have
23 Q It was on the phone? 23 a place to stay so I -- I opened up my home to their
24 A Yeah. 24 family.
25 Q How did you meet Deborah Frazier? 25 Q And you had never met those folks before?

Page 159 Page 161

1 A She came to the meetings that we hold in -- 1 A Well, it wasn’t that. They had been in the ministry
2 Q In Taylor? 2 for a little time. We got a chance to know them so.
3 A -- Taylor church. 3 Q How would they have been in the ministry?
4 Q When Deborah Frazier volunteers, do you pay her 4 A We --
5 travel costs when she comes to St. Louis? 5 Q They lived somewhere else?
6 A No. 6 A Yeah. They came down and was active for maybe a few
7 Q No? 7 months and we got a chance to know them a little bit.
8 A No. 8 Q And then they came and you supported them?
9 Q She’s on her own? 9 A Yes.
10 A Yeah. 10 Q You stated in your last deposition that you would
11 Q So if she said that she was being reimbursed for 11 like to hire Mrs. Frazier?
12 that, would you say that’s not accurate? 12 A Mm-hmm.
13 A If she says she’s being reimbursed, then I -- I don’t 13 Q You have to answer yes or no.
14 know what’s going on there. I don’t handle that part 14 A Yes, mm-hmm.
15 of the ministry. 15 Q Have you explored that?
16 Q But your understanding is she’s not? 16 A Explore? What do you mean by explore?
17 A From what I know -- I -- I really wouldn’t like to 17 Q Explored whether you’re going to hire her?
18 answer that, I’d just rather say I don’t know. 18 A What do you mean by explore? What -- can you
19 Q But other people, you do reimburse and assist them 19 rephrase.
20 with their costs, right? 20 Q Well, you said that you would like to hire her. So
21 A Of course, but I don’t always know who that is. I 21 have you done anything about that?
22 don’t handle that part of the ministry. 22 A Not at this time. We haven’t added anybody on yet.
23 Q All right. So would that be something that Debbie 23 We have to wait until the finances is there for that
24 Frazier would be eligible for? 24 kind of thing.
25 A Of course. 25 Q So when somebody gives you 1.2 million, where does
 42 (Pages 162 to 165)
Page 162 Page 164
1 that money go? To what? 1 Q What are their names?
2 A It goes to ministry operations. 2 A Katie and James Taylor.
3 Q So for the running of JMMI? 3 Q K-a --
4 A Mm-hmm. 4 A K-a-t-e.
5 Q You have to answer yes or no. 5 Q K-a-t-e, not Kate?
6 A Yes, mm-hmm. 6 A Katie.
7 Q So who has been on the JMMI payroll in the last 90 7 Q K-a-t-e and you call her --
8 days? 8 A T-i-e. I’m sorry.
9 A Michelle Brannon is really the only one on the salary 9 Q Okay. And James?
10 payroll, and myself at this time. 10 A Taylor, mm-hmm.
11 Q Just the two of you? 11 Q And where do they reside?
12 A Mm-hmm. 12 A Memphis, Tennessee.
13 Q You have to answer yes or no. 13 Q Is James Taylor the same one that prepares your tax
14 A Yes, mm-hmm. 14 returns?
15 Q Do you have a former or current FBI agent associated 15 A Mm-hmm.
16 with JMMI now? 16 Q He’s your father?
17 A No. 17 A Mm-hmm. He has an income tax business.
18 Q Has there been? 18 Q Oh, so your father’s prepared your taxes?
19 A No. 19 A Well, not now. He did at one time. We had him doing
20 Q You never had anybody with the FBI involved? 20 that because he has a very integral business, it’s
21 A No. 21 been around for over 30 years.
22 Q At one point your mother and father were on the JMMI 22 Q So when your dad did your taxes, 2012, just a couple
23 Board of Directors? 23 of years ago, and he’s listed as the tax preparer --
24 A Mm-hmm. 24 A Yes, mm-hmm.
25 Q You have to answer yes. 25 Q -- and he’s the one that made the judgment then

Page 163 Page 165

1 A Yes, mm-hmm. 1 apparently to include these four people as
2 Q Okay. And you recall that time period? 2 exemptions?
3 A I think it was -- you know, I don’t remember. I know 3 A Yes.
4 it was a few years ago, so I think -- I’m not quite 4 Q So you’re saying that your parents were never off the
5 sure. 5 board for any period of time other than when they
6 Q Then they resigned, did they not? 6 finally came off now?
7 A No, they didn’t resign. 7 A Yes.
8 Q They didn’t resign? 8 MS. RONAYNE: If I could look at that
9 A No. 9 document. Do you have it with you?
10 Q You filed paperwork showing they resigned? 10 MR. YATOOMA: Keep going.
11 A No. It shouldn’t say resignation. 11 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
12 Q And then in 30 days they were back on the board? 12 MR. YATOOMA: I’ll look for it.
13 A No. 13 BY MS. RONAYNE:
14 Q You don’t recall that? 14 Q In June 18th, 2013, -- well, let me ask you first.
15 A No. 15 Who is Bill Hode? Do you know that name?
16 Q They were on, they were off, they were on, and aren’t 16 A Yes.
17 they off now? 17 Q Who is that?
18 A No. Yeah, they’re off. But the way you were saying 18 A He is a minister in the -- in JMMI.
19 this isn’t the way things happened, no. 19 Q He’s a -- what do you have to do to be a minister?
20 Q What did they -- did they receive compensation? 20 A Well, you have to qualify --
21 A No. 21 Q How?
22 Q They weren’t paid at all? 22 A -- basically through being trained.
23 A No. 23 Q By whom?
24 Q Are they both living? 24 A Well, in this case I train ministers. But he was a
25 A Yes. 25 minister before I knew him so -- in the other church
 43 (Pages 166 to 169)
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1 they had. So he was already a minister before he met 1 when you minister or when you do any service for the
2 me in our organization. 2 ministry we -- we give honorariums.
3 Q Does that mean he’s licensed? 3 Q And what do you have to do to get an honorarium?
4 A I don’t know. You’d probably have to ask him. 4 A Well, speak or minister. Do some form of ministry in
5 Q So how do you -- you just accept that he’s a 5 the church or ministry.
6 minister? How do you know he’s a minister? 6 Q Do you give these out routinely?
7 A Well, I can see from the qualification of how he 7 A If I have a guest speaker or if I have somebody come
8 handles his-self and I’m -- been a minister for 25 8 and do a service for the ministry, yeah.
9 years so I know. 9 Q And it’s $2,000?
10 Q So you can just tell by looking at somebody if 10 A It’s not normally just 2,000. It depends.
11 they’re a minister? 11 Q It’s more than that usually?
12 A Well, if they say -- if I know they have ties to a 12 A It depends.
13 reputable church before and if they come and start 13 Q It could be more than that?
14 working in our ministry and I see their expertise, 14 A Yeah, mm-hmm.
15 then, yes -- 15 Q And how long do they stay and talk?
16 Q You don’t have to be -- 16 A It depends, maybe -- a whole service could be for
17 A -- I can tell. 17 like two or three hours.
18 Q You don’t have to be ordained? 18 Q And you make $2,000?
19 A Well, yeah, you can be ordained, but the ordination 19 A Yeah, that’s -- that’s not standard.
20 is not what makes you a minister. 20 Q How is it not standard?
21 Q So do you, when you accept someone as a minister, do 21 A It’s not -- it could be more or less depending on the
22 you, then, do a background check to see whether they 22 qualification or the donation. The work that they do
23 were legitimately associated with any of these 23 that night for the Lord.
24 places? 24 Q So how much you pay them depends on how much you
25 A Mm-hmm. 25 receive in donations in some way?

Page 167 Page 169

1 Q What do you do? 1 A Sometimes.
2 A Well, I just have people on the staff or board check 2 Q So you have --
3 backgrounds, do an investigation. 3 A But this, for him, it was not just any one service.
4 Q Like what? 4 It was just his involvement in helping the ministry.
5 A Or if I don’t need that if I already know the leaders 5 Q In general, he didn’t give a service?
6 who already know -- are reputable, then I don’t have 6 A Right.
7 to do that. 7 Q And who makes that decision of who to give that kind
8 Q All right. So you’re say -- how old is Mr. -- is it 8 of money to?
9 Hode? 9 A The board and myself.
10 A Yes, mm-hmm. 10 Q So this was just a general gift?
11 Q How old do you think he is? 11 A It was an honorarium as I said.
12 A I think -- I’m not sure. I think he’s 40. I don’t 12 Q Now, do you give Mr. Hode a 1099?
13 know. Let me just say I don’t know. 13 A I think I did. I’m not sure. I didn’t do it,
14 Q Forty, somewhere around there? 14 though.
15 A No, no, no. He’s not 40. I’m just saying I don’t 15 Q Sure. On your behalf somebody -- somebody gave a
16 know. 16 1099.
17 Q Okay. Do you know if he’s related to Debbie Frazier? 17 A Mm-hmm.
18 A Yes. I found out they’re cousins. 18 Q Because that -- there -- there are lots of payments
19 Q And June 18th, 2013, you paid Debbie Frazier’s 19 to Mr. Hode in several thousands of dollars over the
20 cousin, Bill Hode, $2,000. What was that for? 20 course of time, right?
21 A That was a ministry gift to bless him. 21 A Okay. No. I don’t -- I don’t know if there’s lots.
22 Q What does that mean? 22 I don’t --
23 A I’m sorry? 23 Q Well, they total thousands of dollars, more than the
24 Q A ministry gift to bless him? 24 two. It wasn’t a one shot deal, you acknowledge
25 A Or an honorary is what we call it, the name of it, 25 that?
 44 (Pages 170 to 173)
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1 A I only remember giving -- for allowing that to happen 1 that. And so, the same thing in Orlando when that
2 maybe twice. That’s it. 2 happened.
3 Q Okay. And it’s your understanding that you do a 1099 3 Q All right.
4 to him and he’s to report that as his income? 4 A But I’m just stopping, just take them there. We are
5 A That’s right. 5 having a meeting engagement, and then on the time off
6 Q So each time that somebody comes and you pay them an 6 I allow that to happen.
7 honorarium or if just whatever you think is a good 7 Q And JMMI paid the $6,000 for the resort charges?
8 guy or whatever, you give them a 1099? 8 A Yes, mm-hmm. Of course.
9 A Yes, that’s the -- what the law requires. 9 Q Of course? Even for the vacation?
10 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. We did request 10 A Yes, of course.
11 the 1099s but we haven’t gotten them. Maybe they’re 11 Q All right. So who was there in Anaheim -- Anaheim,
12 in the package tomorrow. 12 California?
13 BY MS. RONAYNE: 13 A I don’t remember.
14 Q In June of 2013 there’s over $6,000 worth of charges 14 Q You don’t remember who you went with?
15 for the Disney Resort Hotel in Anaheim California. 15 A No. It’s been so long, you know, and I travel all
16 Do you remember that? 16 the time with different groups so.
17 A Yes. 17 Q And all on JMMI’s dime?
18 Q And did you go? 18 A Well, that’s -- you -- what do you do when you have a
19 A Yes, I was there. 19 staff who you need to go help and they’re not getting
20 Q And who were you with? 20 salary but they’re volunteering their time. What,
21 A I know it was four staff. I can’t remember exactly 21 they’re supposed to pay their own plane tickets? No.
22 who all went, but we were down there in Orlando for a 22 The ministry take care of that because the ministry
23 meeting and then we also went on vacation, yes. 23 is using them on the road to do things so we take
24 Q To Disneyland? 24 care of basic expenses, and if there is a vacation
25 A Yes. 25 thrown in there, which is not always, we allow that

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1 Q And JMMI paid for that? 1 to happen --
2 A Yes. 2 Q And you --
3 Q And so, do you report that on your income when you 3 A -- as a benefit.
4 get paid for a vacation? 4 Q And you pay for that?
5 A I don’t -- I don’t know, I’m not into that part. I 5 A Yes.
6 have people who take care of that for me. 6 Q Okay. But you can’t say if you issue them any kind
7 Q Do you give the staff 1099s for paid vacations? 7 of gift or receipt or 1099s for that benefit?
8 A I -- I don’t know the financial -- 8 A You know what, I don’t know the legal --
9 Q Okay. 9 Q Okay. And -- so you went to both Orlando and Anaheim
10 A -- I don’t -- 10 and paid for vacations for staff members but you
11 Q What four staff members were there? 11 don’t know who they are?
12 A Like I said, I can’t remember who they are. 12 A No, I can’t remember exactly who it is. I’d rather
13 Q These were in Anaheim, California, so apparently you 13 not say until -- I’d rather not.
14 did Anaheim and Orlando? 14 Q Was -- were your children included?
15 A Mm-hmm. 15 A My children were there with me in Orlando.
16 Q You have to answer yes. 16 Q And --
17 A Yes. 17 A And Anaheim.
18 Q So you took staff to Orlando and Anaheim for a 18 Q And did JMMI pay for them?
19 vacation at Disney Resorts? 19 A I think so, but I’m not sure. I don’t think -- I
20 A It isn’t quite like that. 20 usually -- when I go on a vacation, the ministry give
21 Q Okay. 21 me a vacation bonus and it comes out of that so.
22 A So I have different staff that accompany me to 22 Q The vacation bonus and -- I don’t see that reported
23 different cities I go into, so when I was in 23 as income anywhere on your tax return?
24 California that year and we went to Disney World at 24 A Well, I mean, you got to go to the people who handle
25 the same time, yeah, the staff go. I treated them to 25 that, they can explain.
 45 (Pages 174 to 177)
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1 Q You don’t know anything about your own finances? 1 A I don’t know about that. No, we don’t do that, I’m
2 A Not a lot. I have professionals take care of that 2 sure.
3 and people who know about non-profit business. But I 3 Q Who would T. Taylor be made for?
4 can assure you I’m not doing anything illegal. 4 A I’m not sure. You’d probably need to ask the
5 Q Well -- 5 financial advisors about that.
6 A The only thing we have is open, so there’s nothing to 6 Q Well, let me show you cancelled checks we’ve
7 hide. You can see everything we have on our papers. 7 received. It’s from JMMI Ministries, Charter Place,
8 Q I’m not sure that your conclusion is accurate. 8 thirteen hundred and fifty dollars September 6th,
9 A Well, that’s your opinion. 9 2008, it’s marked --
10 Q Right. 10 MR. YATOOMA: 2013.
11 A That’s your opinion. 11 BY MS. RONAYNE:
12 Q Did Debbie Frazier go on either of the Disney Resort 12 Q I’m sorry. 2013. And it’s marked in the memo line,
13 trips? 13 T. Taylor’s rent.
14 A Not that I remember. I don’t -- 14 A Okay.
15 Q You know it was -- 15 Q And who is this person’s signature on that account?
16 A She -- 16 A That’s a lady who has died recently, but she was with
17 Q It was four people and you can’t remember who they 17 us for many years. Marian France.
18 are? 18 Q Marian France?
19 A I mean, it’s been a while and I have different people 19 A Mm-hmm, yes.
20 who will go so I -- I don’t remember actually, but I 20 Q When did she die?
21 know I had a group with me. 21 A About -- it was last year, I think. I’m not sure the
22 Q Do you go to Disney Resorts every year? 22 exact date but.
23 A Not every year, no. 23 Q Did she -- she obviously had signatory authority on
24 Q But mostly? 24 the check?
25 A No. Honestly, I hadn’t been to Disney World in -- 25 A Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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1 before this time in probably, I don’t know, three -- 1 Q Checking account?
2 three years, four or five, something like that. 2 A Yes, mm-hmm.
3 Q So where was the meeting that you had in Anaheim? 3 Q And then there’s a September 10th, 2013, check,
4 A It was in Anaheim. 4 sixteen hundred dollars rent for Michelle Brannon.
5 Q Where? I mean, what -- what organization or -- 5 A Mm-hmm.
6 A I can’t remember exactly who that was. 6 Q And I’ll show you this one.
7 Q All right. On September 6th, 2013, JMMI wrote a 7 A Okay.
8 check to Charter Place for thirteen hundred and fifty 8 Q If you can tell -- the middle line is for Michelle
9 dollars with a memo line recording it as T. Taylor’s 9 and it’s sixteen hundred dollars. Is JMMI paying
10 rent. Is JMMI paying rent for your ex-wife Tabitha? 10 Michelle’s rent?
11 A No, I don’t -- I don’t know what that is. I can’t 11 A I really can’t answer to you what this line of
12 answer that. 12 financing was for. So, you know, you may see one
13 Q You have no idea why thirteen hundred and fifty 13 thing but not know what’s really happening, so it
14 dollars -- 14 would be better to ask Michelle in the financial --
15 A No. 15 those who deal with the finances.
16 Q -- would be paid and it would be marked rent? 16 Q So you’re saying that you don’t watch over the
17 A No. 17 finances at all, that you do not look at to see who
18 Q There are actually several monthly payments, October, 18 is receiving money properly or improperly?
19 November, et cetera, that same year made to Charter 19 A That’s not true. I have a firm. My -- my way of
20 Place with the same notation. 20 looking is having a professional firm, an accountant
21 A Mm-hmm. I’m not quite sure, you’d probably have to 21 to do that.
22 ask Michelle about that. 22 Q Who’s that?
23 Q Does Tabitha work in your ministry? 23 A Ask Michelle, she knows.
24 A No. 24 Q You don’t know who the firm is?
25 Q But somehow her rent’s being paid? 25 A I -- I think I know their name, but I’ll just -- I
 46 (Pages 178 to 181)
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1 don’t -- I don’t think I have it right so just ask 1 Q So anybody on the board could authorize that kind of
2 her. 2 purchase and sign the check?
3 Q Well, wasn’t that when your dad was doing the 3 A Not any one, only those who have the power to sign
4 accounting? 4 checks.
5 A What did you say now? 5 Q And who are they?
6 Q Wasn’t that when your dad was doing the accounting? 6 A I don’t know. I’ll share with you I don’t know. Ask
7 A What are you talking about? 7 Michelle.
8 Q During that time period. 8 Q You have no idea?
9 A What are -- you’re confusing two things. I’m -- he 9 A No. I know I’m one of them.
10 was doing my personal income taxes. 10 Q And you know Michelle’s one of them?
11 Q He didn’t do JMMI’s? 11 A Yes.
12 A He may have, I’m not sure on that time. But I also 12 Q Anybody else that you know of?
13 had firms or accountants. 13 A No.
14 Q So how many different firms have you had using your 14 Q So Michelle would have complete discretion to spend
15 -- or preparing your financial information? 15 almost $10,000 on something?
16 A I can’t answer. I don’t know. 16 A If she knew -- she ran it by the board.
17 Q Michelle handles that? 17 Q But you don’t even know who’s on the board, you can’t
18 A Mm-hmm. 18 tell me who’s on the board.
19 Q You have to answer yes. 19 A Like I shared with you, that you can ask all this
20 A Yes. 20 information and they’ll share what you want to know,
21 Q Okay. On November 4th, 2013, JMMI made a purchase of 21 but I have a process that people go through before
22 $9,560 from Amini’s Galleries in St. Louis which is a 22 they spend large sums of money.
23 store that specializes in pool tables and game rooms 23 Q Okay. But you don’t know what it is?
24 and juke boxes. 24 A Yes, I do.
25 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q You don’t have price the --

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1 Q What was that purchase for? 1 A You have to go through the board --
2 A I’m not sure. You probably need to ask -- 2 Q All right. And you’re on the board.
3 Q You have no idea? 3 A Yes, I am on the board.
4 A You probably need to ask Michelle. I don’t -- I 4 Q So wouldn’t that have been run through you?
5 can’t remember what that’s about. 5 A Not smaller purchases like that.
6 Q I mean, that’s just, what, a year ago? Did anything 6 Q Not a $10,000 purchase that’s small?
7 come into -- to any of your buildings that was a pool 7 A No, the board can handle that kind of purchase. They
8 table or something resembling that? 8 can decide if that’s wise or not.
9 A No. We didn’t buy a pool table. 9 Q Does it take a board meeting to decide that?
10 Q You didn’t buy a pool table? 10 A I don’t understand if it will take a board meeting
11 A No. 11 the way you’re thinking of. Maybe they can have a
12 Q Did you buy a juke box or ping pong or -- 12 phone conference or -- if they’re not altogether.
13 A No. 13 Q Right.
14 Q You can’t -- a $9,000 expenditure -- 14 A Because this is a traveling ministry so we are always
15 A I mean, you can’t go by, you know, just the name of a 15 on the go.
16 company that sounds like it’s a juke -- because it 16 Q So how many people are on the board? How many people
17 could be something else they have in there that could 17 does it take to have a phone call with?
18 serve ministry purpose or whatever their -- 18 A I don’t know.
19 whatever’s happening. 19 Q You don’t know?
20 Q Well, give me an example. 20 A I told you I don’t --I don’t know the accurate
21 A I don’t know. 21 amount. Instead of saying something, I’m telling you
22 Q You don’t know what $10,000 would be spent on? 22 I don’t know.
23 A I have confidence in very integral people with our 23 Q All right. So when you’re on a phone call during the
24 finances, so I trust them, so you will have to ask 24 board meeting, you have no idea how many people are
25 them. 25 on the other end of the phone?
 47 (Pages 182 to 185)
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1 A I don’t actually. I don’t -- I don’t -- at that 1 Q And so --
2 time, I don’t know. I don’t -- at this time I do not 2 A So it’s not that I’m not giving you information like
3 know how many people. 3 Rick is saying, I’m -- I’m telling you the way you
4 Q How do you get appointed to the board? 4 keep --
5 A Well, you have to go through the right -- I don’t 5 Q Well, who hired -- you don’t know the number of board
6 know if we’ve ever come up with any -- any kind of a 6 members, you don’t know they are, you don’t know how
7 process like that other than credibility, you know, 7 they get to be, and you don’t know what happens to
8 towards myself and anybody who is qualified. 8 make a $10,000 purchase.
9 Q What do you mean anybody that’s qualified? 9 A When you get bigger in ministry like what I do, you
10 A Yeah, you have to qualify to be able to do ministry 10 don’t handle all of that. I’m a preacher, I focus on
11 work. I mean, on that level so. 11 the spiritual aspect of the ministry, and I have
12 Q All right. Tell me what the means, you have to 12 professionals who do the professional aspect.
13 qualify. 13 Q And that includes -- that’s Michelle almost
14 A I mean, to be an administrator, to be a head in the 14 exclusively, isn’t it?
15 ministry. 15 A She’s a part of it, so --
16 Q So how does one do that? I asked what the process 16 Q So it doesn’t bother you that -- that Michelle can
17 was and you don’t know. 17 write a -- herself a check for her rent and not clear
18 A Well, I mean, first of all, I need to know their 18 it with you?
19 credentials and what they’ve done in the past. 19 A That’s not the way things go. That’s not the -- I
20 Q So do you review every applicant for the board? 20 mean, you can --
21 A Of course. 21 Q Well, we’ve got a check for --
22 Q Do they make a written application? 22 A -- you just said --
23 A Yes, and I don’t know all the process -- I don’t know 23 Q -- her rent?
24 everything because I’ve stopped handling a lot of 24 A But that’s what you’re trying to say. You’re --
25 that over the years. So I have other people to 25 you’re falsifying information.

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1 handle those things for me, so I can’t answer a lot 1 Q No -- okay, okay. Let’s stop right there.
2 of these questions. 2 A No.
3 Q So you don’t know how many are on the board or how 3 Q If you’re saying I’m falsifying information --
4 you get to be on the board? 4 A That’s what you’re doing.
5 A Not -- I know the process. I know kind of what we 5 Q -- I’ll pull the check, give me the check, and you’re
6 look for, but I, right now, because I am so busy and 6 going to tell me --
7 I can’t do all of the internal stuff. I have -- 7 A Just because you’re pulling a check don’t mean you
8 that’s why I hired Michelle as an executive to handle 8 were given the right information. You are lying
9 this. And she was an executive at -- way before. 9 about that.
10 Q She was what? 10 Q I’m lying about something?
11 A She was an executive for other companies before she 11 A Yes. Just because that’s there don’t mean -- your
12 came -- or a good administrator, so I hired her to 12 opinion is a lie. So what I’m saying to you --
13 handle -- 13 Q My opinion is a lie?
14 Q Okay. But don’t you have as CEO and -- I mean, your 14 A -- go to her and find out what it’s about. Don’t
15 name is kind of associated with this, aren’t you 15 show me the check again, I already -- I already saw
16 concerned that there could be people that are taking 16 it.
17 advantage of the money in the ministry? 17 Q So you’re saying I am lying, that this is -- this
18 A Well, that’s why I have CPAs and accountants -- 18 says --
19 Q CPAs? 19 MR. POTTS: No, she’s not lying.
20 A -- who -- I mean, we have hired our firms outward. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I’m not saying --
21 Outside the ministry to go through the money to make 21 MR. POTTS: She’s not lying.
22 sure that it’s not happening. You can find out from 22 THE WITNESS: -- that you’re lying
23 Michelle. 23 about this on here. I’m saying that your opinion is
24 Q Who does that? 24 a lie.
25 A Mm-hmm. 25 BY MS. RONAYNE:
 48 (Pages 186 to 189)
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1 Q My opinion is nothing other than a check was written 1 A Yes.
2 for Michelle’s rent. 2 Q And who holds the mortgage?
3 A You just gave a connotation that so you’re saying 3 A Harold Lewis.
4 that she can just write out a check for herself and 4 Q Who’s he?
5 do this. That ain’t how we operate. So what I’m 5 A He’s the former -- oh, he’s the owner or former owner
6 saying to you, go and find out. I can’t tell you all 6 for the person we are buying the house from.
7 the -- 7 Q So -- but you’re also -- I recall you testifying that
8 Q And you can’t tell me how it operates? 8 you’re leasing this house and the documents show for
9 A I can’t tell you all the legal -- 9 $6,500 a month?
10 Q What are the checks and balances? 10 A That’s just the lease to own.
11 A -- some are allowed in the IRS for us to operate. 11 Q You don’t have a lease to own?
12 Q Okay. What do the checks -- 12 A Well, that’s what our agreement is.
13 A You just say -- 13 Q Oh, lease to own.
14 Q -- and balances that you have to make sure that 14 A Our original intentions is to buy the home and that’s
15 nobody’s scamming the money? 15 what we’re doing, and so that’s the agreement.
16 A A firm -- a CPA firm who checks and audits our books. 16 Q What’s the agreement?
17 Q But you don’t know who they are? 17 A That we are buying a home, we are purchasing a home
18 Q I know Brown Smith and Wallace -- not Brown Smith and 18 or we’re leasing to own at this time. But the
19 Wallace. I don’t know what to say, I get these names 19 $250,000 is our earnest money to purchase the home.
20 mixed up and numbers and stuff. But I -- my thing 20 Q Who’s Harold Lewis in this? How do you know him?
21 is, I am not evading the answer, I’m telling you 21 A He’s the owner of the home, that was trying to sell
22 where you can go get it. So what I’m saying to you 22 the home.
23 is accurate so I don’t go through this rigmarole with 23 Q Do you have a land contract?
24 you all about this. 24 A Yes, I think we do. I’m not -- don’t quote me on
25 Q What I’m trying to say is, you have millions of 25 that, but it’s -- I mean, Michelle will be the best

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1 dollars coming into this place and you’re constantly 1 person to answer that question.
2 asking for money, and you can’t tell me who can write 2 Q So you gave Mr. Lewis $250,000 --
3 checks, who can make decisions about writing checks, 3 A Mm-hmm
4 and how those things get authorized or who’s on the 4 Q -- as a down payment, and in addition to that, you’re
5 board and who decides, right? 5 paying sixty-five hundred dollars a month?
6 A Because I -- I’ve done this for 25 years and I’ve 6 A Yes. The ministry does, yeah.
7 established from the ground, and I have things 7 Q But you didn’t provide us with a -- with a land
8 already put in place that I don’t have to go back and 8 contract, you provided us with a lease?
9 check like that. Not like that. I have that system 9 A Okay. So maybe that’s what that is. I can’t --
10 set up so -- 10 Q I’m going to show you a residential lease for JMMI
11 Q What is the system? 11 for the -- how do you pronounce it Tim --
12 A -- what you want to know, ask the person who I have 12 A Timpaige.
13 in charge. 13 Q -- Timpaige property for $6,500 a month in rent
14 Q And that’s Michelle? 14 beginning November 1st, 2013, and ending on January
15 A Exactly. 15 1st, 2016.
16 Q Okay. There’s an October 24th, 2013, check JMMI 16 A Mm-hmm.
17 wrote for $250,000 as a down payment for a 17 Q And it talks about security of sixty-five hundred and
18 Chesterfield home. 18 that you’re going to pay a lease of $6,500.
19 A Mm-hmm. 19 A Yeah.
20 Q What does that go to? 20 Q It doesn’t anywhere talk about recognition of a down
21 A That was a down payment to purchase the residential 21 payment or a --
22 center in St. Louis on Timpaige. 22 A Which it should.
23 Q And that came from JMMI -- 23 Q It should?
24 A Yes. 24 A Yep. Or, if it don’t, then -- like I say, you need
25 Q -- funds? Is there a mortgage on it? 25 to -- it would be good to go to Michelle she’s
 49 (Pages 190 to 193)
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1 handling -- 1 MR. POTTS: -- property is?
2 Q This is $250,000 and you’re not up to speed on what 2 THE WITNESS: I do. It’s --
3 this is about? 3 MR. POTTS: How much is it?
4 A I am up to speed on that. 4 THE WITNESS: -- $2.5 million.
5 Q And what is it? 5 MR. POTTS: Okay.
6 A It was a big purchase, I know what we did on that. 6 THE WITNESS: And we are putting down
7 Q What does this say? 7 a total of 500k. We have only put down two hundred
8 A Residential Lease. This is lease to own. I -- 8 and fifty at this time, and the six hundred and --
9 Q Show me where it says lease to own? Show me anywhere 9 $6,500 is the lease. Now, as you know that a lease
10 residential lease. 10 for that amount of money -- this was a personal
11 A Oh, residential lease. 11 situation we worked out with the owner.
12 Q Right. 12 MR. POTTS: I’m just trying to
13 A Oh, so you’re just trying to say that what I’m saying 13 understand what she’s trying to understand.
14 lease to own is not -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
15 Q It’s not on this document, is it? 15 BY MS. RONAYNE:
16 A Well, I am sharing with you this is the conversation 16 Q It doesn’t make sense.
17 we had with the owner of the house, and this is why 17 A Well, I mean --
18 we put down $250,000 earnest money for that -- toward 18 Q And it’s not legal, I can tell you that. Because any
19 that. 19 thing --
20 Q Where is the document that says because -- 20 A It’s not legal?
21 A Well -- 21 Q No. Anything that deals with land --
22 Q Hold on. We asked for this. 22 A Uh-huh.
23 A Mm-hmm 23 Q -- must be in writing.
24 Q The document that says you’re purchasing that. 24 A Yes.
25 A Yes. 25 Q And you have a lease that expires in 2016.

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1 Q Where is that? 1 A I -- I just don’t think you probably have all the
2 A I think you should have that on what we don’t -- 2 documents here, but we should have more than that so
3 Q I don’t have it. 3 I will rather you ask about that because we just got
4 A Well, maybe we can ask her about that. She should be 4 out of --
5 able to provide that to you. 5 MR. POTTS: What’s the property
6 Q I would like -- 6 called?
7 MS. RONAYNE: If you can make note of 7 THE WITNESS: Timpaige.
8 this, Dave, I would like a copy of whatever the 8 MR. POTTS: T-i?
9 purchase agreement is or whatever document that shows 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That’s the -- I’m
10 the $250,000 because it doesn’t make any sense. 10 sorry. That’s the --
11 MR. POTTS: Just let me ask a 11 BY MS. RONAYNE:
12 question. 12 Q Street?
13 MS. RONAYNE: Mm-hmm. 13 A Yeah.
14 MR. POTTS: Do you understand that 14 Q The street name?
15 these lease payments are to be applied to the 15 A Timpaige, yeah.
16 ultimate purchase price? 16 Q But they call it the --
17 MS. RONAYNE: Well, that’s the 17 MR. POTTS: T-i-m-p --
18 question. What’s the purchase price? 18 THE WITNESS: A-i-g-e.
19 MR. POTTS: I’m just asking him if he 19 MS. RONAYNE: They call it the
20 understands that. 20 residential center.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. 21 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
22 MS. RONAYNE: I mean, you -- 22 BY MS. RONAYNE:
23 MR. POTTS: Do you know what the 23 Q And the $250,000 check is written on October 24th,
24 purchase of the -- 24 2013, and the beginning of this lease is November
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 1st, so it doesn’t make any sense.
 50 (Pages 194 to 197)
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1 MR. POTTS: Is it 2.25 purchase? Is 1 A But they don’t have to be her --
2 that the amount? 2 Q Hold on.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, 2.2 -- 2.5, yeah. 3 A -- we have other large --
4 MR. POTTS: Two point five. 4 Q Hold on. I’m not through.
5 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 5 A -- contributors.
6 MR. POTTS: Is the difference, okay. 6 Q I’m not through. Oh, you have other large
7 Okay. 7 contributors that you -- give you over a million?
8 BY MS. RONAYNE: 8 A Well, they gave it in collebles. But I raised that
9 Q So you put $250,000 down and then signed a lease 9 money on -- on the road as much as she gave as well
10 saying you’d pay $600 -- I’m sorry -- six thousand, 10 that year. That was a high year for us, but I’m
11 five hundred thousand (sic) dollars a month more 11 telling you --
12 beginning right then and through January 1st, 2016, 12 Q Okay. But she was the big bonus.
13 which is less -- you know, it’s ten months -- 11 13 A So don’t look and say that that’s her money because
14 months away. 14 that money could have come from other parts of the
15 A Yeah. 15 money that came in that year, too. So don’t -- don’t
16 Q So what happens then? 16 do that.
17 A That’s -- that’s the interest rate on the home 17 Q But don’t you have an obligation to behave
18 actually. 18 responsibly with these donations?
19 Q Six thousand five hundred dollars a month is the 19 A That is responsible.
20 interest rate you’re paying? 20 Q It’s not --
21 A On a -- well, that’s what he was paying on that 21 A I mean, that’s --
22 property on a two -- two million -- a two million 22 Q Show me where -- excuse me. Show me where the
23 dollar loan against it. I think he pays $5,000 and 23 $250,000 down payment and the rent-to-own comes in.
24 the other fifteen hundred was for the taxes, so 24 A Well, I will rather you get the information from
25 that’s just the three percent interest rate I think 25 Michelle because the way you’re making this look is

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1 Bank of America locked him into, so we are starting 1 not -- this is responsible. You probably don’t have
2 to take over the home and show earnest money to 2 everything you need to see here, maybe you don’t have
3 purchase it. We took over also the -- the -- the 3 enough documents, but I know what we did. I signed
4 interest month -- interest payments a month. 4 this, I remember that, and I’m a very wise business
5 Q Who provided this lease for you to sign? You signed 5 man so.
6 it, didn’t you? 6 Q This would be in direct conflict with what you’ve
7 A I think I probably did, yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. So -- 7 told me was your intent.
8 Q Who provided it? 8 A Well --
9 A Harold and his lawyer. 9 Q It didn’t get reflected in this document you signed.
10 Q And who represented you? 10 A You can say whatever you want, you know, you could
11 A Well, I have a lawyer who is -- we just actually had 11 lie and do whatever you want.
12 a meeting with him and one of the things he did put 12 Q Sir, I’m not lying. That’s a document you provided.
13 in the contract that he forgot to mention was that 13 A Well -- well, your opinion is a lie, you know. We
14 that was a down payment which is -- 14 have total proof of all of this so it’s no -- it’s
15 Q Come on. 15 nothing --
16 A -- supposed to be in there. Of course. 16 Q And you’ll provide it.
17 Q What do you mean of course? 17 MS. RONAYNE: Mr. Potts?
18 A It’s -- 18 THE WITNESS: Total proof, of course.
19 Q This makes no sense. 19 BY MS. RONAYNE:
20 A Then go to the right people and find out what you 20 Q So when people are going to donate money, do you say
21 need to know. 21 we want to buy a $2.5 million house and that’s why we
22 Q Well, see, that’s what my concern is. Your -- you 22 need it? Do you give them any kind of notice of what
23 know, Debbie Frazier gives 1.1 million and then you 23 your -- your game plan is for buying?
24 go and put $250,000 as a down payment that’s not 24 A No, actually, I’m very transparent with the people,
25 reflected anywhere and it looks like you -- 25 with the money, they know how much comes in. I tell
 51 (Pages 198 to 201)
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1 them as to how much we raised -- 1 Q What was that for?
2 Q What people are you referring to? 2 A That was concerning our -- they’re the ones that’s
3 A The people -- when I’m in front of them, I share with 3 basically doing the bank hunting and that kind of
4 them the money that comes in and what we’re using it 4 thing for us.
5 for and I’m basically -- 5 Q The bank hunting?
6 Q Did you disclose that it was going for this $2.5 6 A For -- I don’t know what they call it, but they’re --
7 million house? 7 I don’t know the legal word they call it but they are
8 A No, because I don’t have to share that. But what I 8 -- they are consultants and they have connections
9 do share with them is our discussions with the banks, 9 with the banks and VIPs so.
10 what we’re trying to get a loan from the bank for 10 Q With the banks and VIPs?
11 about two years and were turned down by 15 and so 11 A Mm-hmm.
12 they wouldn’t -- 12 Q You have to answer yes or no.
13 Q So you want more money -- 13 A Yes.
14 A They want to -- 14 Q So you’re using them to do what?
15 Q You were turned down by 15 banks? 15 A To actually find a bank that will give us a loan so
16 A Because they don’t give money to -- in this economy 16 that we don’t have to keep using our cash.
17 they weren’t giving money to non-profits or churches. 17 Q For what?
18 They don’t want to do that, so we were trying to find 18 A For ministry.
19 out, you know, what would be their road of integrity 19 Q You want to take out a loan to conduct the ministry?
20 to show them earnestly, and so they said it would be 20 A No. To build what we need.
21 good if we had purchase property and things that 21 Q What -- what is it you’re building?
22 showed equity, and that’s one of the reasons why the 22 A I mean, we have other things we need to do,
23 ministry purchased that home is to start creating a 23 television, a TV studio, TV -- I mean, media
24 bigger portfolio before the banks so. 24 everything, so it takes money to do that.
25 Q You didn’t accomplish that by that document. 25 Q So you don’t want to have to keep using your cash for

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1 A We did, you just don’t have everything here so you 1 that?
2 can keep your opinion. 2 A Right.
3 Q So you don’t tell them that you’re buying the house, 3 Q So the cash that comes in on a collection plate?
4 you just say we need more money to show the bank we 4 A Yes.
5 can borrow more money? 5 Q In a bucket?
6 A Yes, I share with them about purchasing real estate 6 A Mm-hmm.
7 and just things like that. 7 Q Is that a --
8 Q But you -- 8 A Using the cash, yeah, of the ministry.
9 A The things the ministry needs to do become strong 9 Q What should the cash for the ministry be used for?
10 before the bank. 10 A Well, we want to be wise towards with what -- with
11 Q All right. So you don’t say we just put a 250,000 11 what God give us in the collection plate, so to keep
12 down payment -- 12 just spending raw cash to purchase everything, it’s
13 A Yeah, I have shared that with them. 13 hard so we’re trying to develop a stronger
14 Q On stage in your group? 14 relationship with the banks to front us money so that
15 A Yeah, I shared that. Yeah. 15 we can be a more wiser investor of what we have.
16 Q I thought you just said I don’t have to share with 16 Q So you think it’s better to take out a loan than to
17 the people. I wrote that down. 17 pay for it as you go?
18 A Well, it was the context you said I remember that 18 A Well, you know, eventually it gets very hard -- I
19 time, but you’re asking me now did I share it with 19 mean, I think it’s good you pay for everything in
20 them? I said I did. I have. I’m very open about 20 cash as you start out and build a foundation, but if
21 that. 21 you’re going to do bigger things, you need a
22 Q All right. On March 17th, 2014, there was a check to 22 financial institution to help front money so it’s
23 a Hope Jones Associates for seventy-five hundred 23 wiser.
24 dollars as a retainer. 24 Q And then, that’s wiser to you?
25 A Mm-hmm. 25 A It is wiser.
 52 (Pages 202 to 205)
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1 Q And then, you don’t use your cash to pay the 1 Elegant Jewelers in Birmingham, Alabama -- JMMI did.
2 mortgage? 2 What was that for?
3 A I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re saying. 3 A I don’t know. I don’t know what that -- I have no
4 Q Well, if they give you a loan, it’s going to be a 4 knowledge of that.
5 loan, right -- 5 Q Do you think you should have knowledge of it?
6 A Mm-hmm. 6 A No, I have people who are taking care of that.
7 Q -- and you have to pay it? 7 Q So it’s okay for somebody to buy jewelry?
8 A Yes. 8 A I don’t think they purchased jewelry. You need to --
9 Q Okay. 9 Q It’s a jewelry store.
10 A But that gives us time. It’s about time and raising 10 A You really need to go and find out what that was
11 more finance through time. So it’s -- you don’t just 11 about.
12 -- I mean, large corporations do this, so I’m sure 12 Q It’s an Elegant Jewelers.
13 you know what that is. 13 A I don’t know what that was about.
14 Q And you compare yourself to a large corporation? 14 Q Okay. Was Debbie Frazier the beneficiary of that?
15 A Well, that’s not the point. The point is about 15 A I don’t know what that’s about, I really can’t say.
16 wisdom, what -- how the money is used in a wise way 16 Q You don’t know?
17 to build. 17 A No.
18 Q Do you have a financial consultant? 18 Q Do you tell your donors that you’re buying jewelry?
19 A Yes. 19 A We don’t buy jewelry.
20 Q Who is that? 20 Q Okay.
21 A We have financial consultants -- 21 A What we do, we go there and we liquidate jewelry. I
22 Q That’s who they are? 22 know that, but I don’t know if that was the case
23 A Yes. 23 there. So we don’t --
24 Q All right. On April 29, 2014, and May 8th, 2014, 24 Q Well, you pay them to liquidate?
25 JMMI paid over $6,000 for pool repairs. Where would 25 A -- we don’t -- we have bought no jewelry from nowhere

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1 that have been done? 1 from what I know of, I’m not aware of that, so you
2 A That was at the home. 2 probably need to go ask Michelle about what that
3 Q What home? 3 purchase was instead of having another opinion that
4 A The home that we purchased, the ministry purchased. 4 breeds lies.
5 Q The residential center? 5 MS. RONAYNE: Mr. Potts, I would like
6 A Mm-hmm. The residential center. 6 you to, if you wouldn’t mind, ask him to stop using
7 Q And so you had to pay $6,000 for the pool? 7 that word.
8 A Yeah, it -- some things were broken there so we need 8 MR. POTTS: Don’t use the term lie.
9 to replace some things. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
10 Q Even though you’re leasing that home? 10 MS. RONAYNE: Thank you.
11 A No, we’re purchasing the home. We’re purchasing it. 11 MR. POTTS: Just -- you have a
12 Q Do you have a deed? 12 difference of opinion, she’s not lying.
13 A No, I don’t think so. But we are purchasing the 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 home. 14 MR. POTTS: She’s asking you
15 Q So did you tell the donors that you were going to 15 questions.
16 spend $6,000 of their donations to fix the pool? 16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 A That’s not how that works. 17 MR. POTTS: And you just answer them.
18 Q No, I’m sure it doesn’t. 18 You don’t have to volunteer information. Just answer
19 A No. 19 the question.
20 Q Yeah, you don’t -- 20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 A We don’t have to tell them all those details but if 21 MR. POTTS: If you can.
22 we purchase something that the ministry is going to 22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 own, we believe in keeping it up in excellence. So 23 MR. POTTS: Don’t involve yourself in
24 if something is broken, we need to fix it. 24 colloquy.
25 Q All right. In July 22nd, 2014, you paid $550 to 25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
 53 (Pages 206 to 209)
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1 BY MS. RONAYNE: 1 A Yes.
2 Q On July 24th, 2014, you paid a thousand dollars to 2 Q Okay. Where is the BMW located?
3 the Smith Anderson Law Firm, and then another 3 A It’s inside this.
4 thousand dollars on October 21st, and then two 4 Q Where?
5 thousand on March 3rd. What was that firm used for? 5 A At the residential center.
6 A I don’t know. I can’t tell you. 6 Q And what about the Mercedes?
7 Q No idea what you hired a law firm for and spent 7 A The same.
8 $4,000 on? 8 Q It’s at the residential center?
9 A I can’t tell you. You probably need to go ask 9 A Yeah.
10 Michelle. 10 Q And the Bentley?
11 Q Jeff Wiseman was an attorney you hired also, do you 11 A Yes.
12 recall that? 12 Q Residential center?
13 A I think we -- that I do, but I’m not -- 13 A Yes.
14 Q It was just in September. 14 Q And where are the keys to that located?
15 A September? 15 A The same place.
16 Q He specializes in foreclosures, things like that. 16 Q Have you driven those cars?
17 A Yeah. I think that’s our land attorney with this -- 17 A Yes.
18 with the Timpaige, because he stepped in to -- for 18 Q Has Michelle?
19 the -- the forwarding of what we’re doing with the 19 A No. We need to have a driver.
20 home. The other two -- 20 Q So what are those cars used for?
21 Q For the what? 21 A Basically when I have guests come in town or anytime
22 A The forwarding of the purchase of the home that we 22 ministry events --
23 are -- 23 Q What’d you say?
24 Q What do you mean the forwarding of it? 24 A Any time ministry --
25 A Well, you know, the proceeding -- proceeding toward 25 Q Any time?

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1 doing that. We were supposed to put 20 percent down 1 A Any time --
2 on the home, not only which you normally do when you 2 Q Oh, any time ministry is on --
3 purchase a home of that size. With a bank it’s 3 A There are three events we have, that kind of thing.
4 usually 500k, but we only put down 250, and we’re 4 Q What do you mean, we have that kind of thing?
5 supposed to put down the other 250 and he’s the 5 A I’m sorry. What did you say?
6 lawyer that we hired -- he’s drawing up all of the 6 Q You said, any time we have ministry events we have --
7 contract concerning that -- with that as well so 7 A No. That kind of thing. I said that kind of thing.
8 that’s part of the purchase -- that’s part of the 8 Q Yeah. What do mean, that kind of thing?
9 process of the, I guess, the other papers you need 9 A A ministry event.
10 so. 10 Q Right.
11 Q So you’re going to give this to Mr. Rosemiller 11 A Mm-hmm. Something. A crusade or maybe a service or
12 $250,000? 12 some kind of ministry function, I’ll say it that way.
13 A Yeah, that’s the 20 percent down on the -- 13 Q In St. Louis?
14 Q When is that supposed to happen? 14 A It could be St. Louis. It could be here or other
15 A I’m not sure. They are -- 15 places. But usually we keep them residentially there
16 Q Well, if you’ve got the money to pay another $250,000 16 in St. Louis.
17 how about using some of that money to pay Debbie? 17 Q So you -- you drive like the Bentley to Detroit or
18 MR. POTTS: You don’t have to answer 18 Taylor?
19 that question. 19 A No, we don’t do that.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q All right. So are those pretty much used exclusively
21 MR. POTTS: That’s not a question, 21 in St. Louis?
22 that’s a statement. 22 A Mostly, exclusive in St. Louis.
23 BY MS. RONAYNE: 23 Q And you said we use a driver a lot, I notice that you
24 Q You testified at your last deposition that JMMI owns 24 have the driver here today. Two of them.
25 three vehicles, a BMW, a Mercedes and a Bentley. 25 A Yes, mm-hmm.
 54 (Pages 210 to 213)
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1 Q Why do you have two drivers today? 1 dollars on security, so don’t --
2 A Well, they’re not just drivers, they’re just 2 Q So you’re saying that you’re like the Catholic
3 agitants. 3 church?
4 Q They’re what? 4 A No, what I’m saying the little security that I do
5 A Agitants or -- 5 have, you know, don’t try to degrade that because --
6 Q Agitants? 6 Q Well, I’m curious why --
7 A Or security, if you want to call it that. 7 A -- there are places that you all know that have
8 Q What was the word you used? 8 security, so it -- it’s not a big deal.
9 A Agitants. 9 Q I don’t. I personally do not know of one pastor that
10 Q Agitants. 10 uses security, not one.
11 A That’s a church term so let’s just say security, 11 A That’s not true.
12 you’ll understand that. Yes. 12 Q Can you tell me any others that do?
13 Q Security for whom? 13 A Many.
14 A For whom? 14 Q Name one?
15 Q Yeah. For whom? 15 A Pat Robinson.
16 A For me, I guess. I know the ones that are here with 16 Q Oh, you equate yourself with those folks, those TV
17 me, right. 17 folks?
18 Q You require security? 18 A Well, I -- I mean, we’re all doing the same kind of
19 A Yeah. I’ve -- yes. 19 ministry basically around the world so we -- we have
20 Q Why? 20 security because things happen so it’s important -- I
21 A Well, I mean, doing ministry or being in the public 21 mean, I’m sure you’ve heard of people just coming in
22 is very, sometimes, dangerous, and you have crazy 22 churches and just shooting people and stuff so it’s
23 people out there and they have done crazy things so. 23 important to have that --
24 Q To you? 24 Q It’s important to have security?
25 A Well, they try to at least. 25 A -- security, yes.

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1 Q Like what? 1 Q Are these people armed?
2 A I mean, any minister that’s in front of the masses 2 A No, they are not armed.
3 will go through something like that. 3 Q So what kind of security do they provide? Are they
4 Q You think that any minister has security? 4 supposed to take a bullet?
5 A I mean, the Pope has a -- 5 A They’re just going to help. I don’t know.
6 Q No, he does -- 6 Q Well, no, seriously. What -- what do you need a
7 A -- a thing that -- 7 security force --
8 Q He actually doesn’t. 8 A Mm-hmm.
9 A That -- 9 Q -- for? Can I ask who pays for it? I mean, he’s
10 Q He drives a Focus. 10 been there all day. Two of them. So who pays for
11 A No, you know, no, no. I’m talking about -- 11 those folks?
12 Q So you’re equating yourself with the Pope? 12 A Well, they are actually volunteers, those two are
13 A No. 13 volunteers.
14 Q Okay. 14 Q And so, they aren’t compensated at all?
15 A I’m saying that -- you know that little thing he buys 15 A Well -- I mean, that ain’t, you know, they
16 costs $2 million or however many millions that’s 16 understand --
17 bullet proof, right? 17 Q That ain’t?
18 Q He doesn’t drive there. 18 A They understand -- I’m from the countryside, I say
19 A Well, somebody drives him. 19 ain’t so.
20 Q He doesn’t use it. 20 Q They understand what?
21 A Well, what I’m saying to you -- 21 A They understand that they are volunteers and they’re
22 Q Hold on. 22 here to help, but they’re really greatly. They’re
23 A No. That’s -- 23 blessed through this ministry so they’re not being
24 Q The Pope does not use that. 24 misused like you’re trying to assume.
25 A Let me say it’s the Catholic church spend billions of 25 Q Well, actually, I’m -- what do you mean greatly
 55 (Pages 214 to 217)
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1 blessed through the ministry? 1 Q What’s the last name?
2 A Well, I mean, they’re compensated so. 2 A M-c-D-i-l-l.
3 Q Okay. That’s what I’m asking. 3 Q DeWinn McDill.
4 A In their own way. Mm-hmm. 4 A Mm-hmm.
5 Q How? How do you compensate? 5 Q And who is he?
6 A Well, I mean, I can’t tell you -- 6 A If I’m not mistaken, he’s one of the pastors in
7 Q Compensated their own way. What does that mean? 7 Montana that’s in (inaudible).
8 A I can’t tell you that money is always the best 8 Q Pastors in Montana?
9 compensation. There’s other things as to -- 9 A Mm-hmm.
10 Q Tell me what they are. 10 Q And he lets you keep the Bentley in St. Louis?
11 A Well, they’re getting blessed through the ministry 11 A Yes.
12 and the work of what we’re doing so -- they’re 12 Q And who is authorized to drive that car?
13 families and their lives so. 13 A A driver -- anybody in the ministry that’s one of our
14 Q So they’re blessed? 14 drivers.
15 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q I have a question, just from a -- you said you
16 Q And that’s their compensation? 16 minister to the poor and sick and all that. Isn’t it
17 A It could be one of them. 17 a little offensive to be driving around in a Bentley
18 Q What would be another one? 18 and a Mercedes to people that really, you know, are
19 A I couldn’t -- I don’t know any other at this time. 19 improvised and sick and ill and AIDS and drug rehab?
20 Q But you’re saying you don’t give them money? 20 Isn’t it a little offensive to sort of be show
21 A Yeah, they’re not on salary if that’s what you’re 21 placing --
22 saying. 22 A Mm-hmm.
23 Q No. Are they given any money? 23 Q -- what you have?
24 A No, we -- I mean, we -- they are a part of the 24 A Well, I don’t showplace to people and I’m -- I’m not
25 ministry and they do benefit from being around and 25 using that car --

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1 being in different events and things we do that 1 Q Well, a Bentley.
2 blesses them and their family so they’re appreciative 2 A You don’t see me driving around in that car every
3 of that. It’s something that you may not understand. 3 day. I don’t do that.
4 Q I’m just wondering who -- how they pay their own 4 Q But it’s in the ministry. Everybody in the ministry
5 bills if -- 5 sees you in it. You said you drive it.
6 A Well, you’ve got to ask them. 6 A I have before, and you just asked me have I drove it,
7 Q -- they’re volunteering all day? 7 it’s not something I drive every day or even every
8 A You’ve got to ask them. 8 year, I don’t do that. I have drivers who pick up my
9 Q But they’re blessed in the ministry somehow? 9 guests, my high profile guests, politicians, pastors,
10 A You’ve got to ask them, yes, their life. 10 some (inaudible) --
11 Q The three cars that we talked about, in whose name 11 Q Who are the high profile -- high profile --
12 are the titles? 12 A -- movie stars.
13 A They’re in the ministry name. 13 Q Movie stars?
14 Q They’re all in JMMI? 14 A Mm-hmm.
15 A I think everything except the Bentley. 15 Q Who would the movie stars be?
16 Q Who’s name is the Bentley in? 16 A Just different ones.
17 A It’s in DeWinn McDill. 17 Q Well, name -- name a couple.
18 Q I’m sorry. 18 A I can name one, Richard T. Jones.
19 A DeWinn McDill. 19 Q Richard -- I’m not familiar with him. Richard T.
20 Q I need you to spell that. 20 Jones --
21 A D-e-w-i-n-n. 21 A Mm-hmm.
22 Q DeWinn? 22 Q -- is a movie star?
23 A Yes. McDill. 23 A Yeah.
24 Q And spell the last name. Is it a person? 24 Q What about another one?
25 A Yeah, mm-hmm. 25 A That’s the only one I have for now.
 56 (Pages 218 to 221)
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1 Q That’s the only one you know for now. Okay. And 1 A Mm-hmm.
2 when you say a high profile guest you said 2 Q In 2013 and ’14.
3 politicians. 3 A Mm-hmm.
4 A Yeah. 4 Q You have to answer yes instead of --
5 Q Who would that be? 5 A Yes, uh-huh.
6 A If it’s a politician that would be one. 6 Q Okay.
7 Q Name -- name me a couple of those. 7 MS. RONAYNE: Let’s mark these as an
8 A He the -- what’s -- Gill -- he used to -- but he’s 8 exhibit.
9 not no more, he’s out of office now. But he used to 9 (WHEREUPON, Defendant’s Deposition
10 be the -- I think the Secretary of Agriculture in 10 Exhibit Number Three was marked for identification at
11 that place at the -- at the Capitol. 11 4:11 p.m.)
12 Q The Secretary of Agriculture? 12 BY MS. RONAYNE:
13 A Yeah. 13 Q And I’ll ask you to identify this. This came from
14 Q You picked up in -- in a Bentley from the -- 14 Joshua Media Ministries, did it not?
15 A No, I didn’t say I did that but -- 15 A Yes, mm-hmm.
16 Q He came -- 16 Q Okay. And it deals with October 1st to October 31st.
17 A It would be people who I would know like that. 17 A Okay.
18 Q Okay. Give me a couple names that you need a Bentley 18 Q Could you acknowledge that on the top?
19 to drive around in? 19 A Yes, mm-hmm.
20 A Well, I can’t give you that. No. 20 Q Okay. October 9th, 2013, there was $10,000 paid to
21 Q You can’t? 21 Limoland.
22 A No. No. 22 A Yes.
23 Q Well, do you see my point that people that -- 23 Q And that’s in St. Louis?
24 A Mm-hmm. 24 A No. That should be in Springfield, not Springfield,
25 Q -- are suffering and getting whatever their last dime 25 but in Missouri somewhere. It’s not in St. Louis.

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1 is and -- 1 Q But it’s in --
2 A Mm-hmm. 2 A It’s in Missouri.
3 Q -- donations and, you know, drug habits, to have them 3 Q The state of Missouri?
4 see you drive around your high profile guests in a 4 A Mm-hmm.
5 Bentley or Mercedes might be offensive, and hopefully 5 Q You have to answer yes.
6 -- 6 A Yeah, mm-hmm.
7 A It could be offensive if they didn’t know my life. 7 Q Okay. What was that for?
8 Q Oh. 8 A That was to cut the Mercedes into a limo.
9 A But they know my life. It would be offensive for 9 Q It was to cut the Mercedes --
10 someone like you who’s trying to make it bad, you 10 A -- into a limo.
11 know, but, you know, because your attitude -- 11 Q And who needs that?
12 Q So it’s important to have a Bentley? 12 A No, that’s for guests.
13 A It ain’t really important, that don’t make me. 13 Q It’s for guests and for you?
14 Q Okay. 14 A It’s mostly for guests.
15 A Okay. 15 Q When you’re entertaining guests.
16 Q Then you also have a Land Rover that you lease. 16 A Yes.
17 A Range Rover. 17 Q When you’re entertaining?
18 Q Range Rover. 18 A Well, not -- when we have guests come in, high
19 A Yes, it’s not a Land Rover. It’s a Range Rover. 19 profile people, we --
20 Q Which is the better one? I don’t even know. 20 Q You have to have a limo?
21 A I don’t know. They’re just cars, that’s all. 21 A -- treat them that way. We don’t have a limo but --
22 Q All right. Then there’s a series of documents that 22 Q And a Mercedes limo.
23 total almost $50,000. 23 A Mm-hmm. We treat them --
24 A Mm-hmm. 24 Q You treat them?
25 Q To Limoland. 25 A I said that we -- we have hospitality, maybe that’s a
 57 (Pages 222 to 225)
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1 better word. 1 Q Well, no, you had debt.
2 Q Okay. Then -- 2 A Well, yes --
3 A And this is not the first one the ministry’s had. 3 Q You wanted to discharge debt?
4 Q Oh, there’s a -- 4 A No, no, it just wasn’t that actually.
5 A There is another Mercedes limousine. That’s right. 5 Q What was it?
6 So -- 6 A It was cutting back so that I could reach more people
7 Q What happened to that? What happened to that one? 7 in the ministry.
8 A I gave up everything so that I could do ministry on a 8 Q Okay. You’re going to have to explain to me how
9 high level. 9 filing bankruptcy is cutting back so that you can --
10 Q You gave up everything? 10 A I never said that. You’re putting words in my mouth.
11 A Mm-hmm. 11 THE WITNESS: She’s lying again.
12 Q You have to answer yes or no. 12 MS. RONAYNE: Can you read that back?
13 A Yes, mm-hmm. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 Q What does that mean you gave up everything? 14 BY MS. RONAYNE:
15 A Well, you know, I didn’t have to but I voluntarily 15 Q So then you spent another $5,000 -- I’m looking for
16 reduced my whole life so that I could -- that was in 16 it.
17 2005 to 2007 -- so that I could -- 17 COURT REPORTER: Did you want to play
18 Q About the time you filed bankruptcy? 18 back or are you --
19 A Well, I had to because of the -- the -- me trying to 19 MS. RONAYNE: No, that’s okay. I know
20 give up the home and some other stuff, I shouldn’t 20 what he said.
21 have even -- 21 REPORTER: Okay. Repeat that then,
22 Q What do you mean? What do you mean me trying to give 22 what you said earlier.
23 up the home? 23 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
24 A Well, I mean, basically I -- 24 BY MS. RONAYNE:
25 Q Went bankrupt? 25 Q So you paid Limoland almost $50,000 total.

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1 A No, not really. I -- 1 A Almost 50,000.
2 Q Not really? 2 Q And that was for what, to make a limo?
3 A It was bad advice. Just someone gave bad advice and 3 A To cut the Mercedes into a limo.
4 -- 4 Q And you think that was a good use of the money that
5 Q But you filed for bankruptcy and were adjudicated to 5 people donated to you and JMMI?
6 bankrupt. 6 A Well, I mean, the banks certainly have looked at that
7 A Yeah. But it was just bad advice I -- 7 on our books as good because it has an appraisal
8 Q So you call giving up -- 8 value of almost 200k with over 150,000.
9 A I didn’t do that. 9 Q What year is the Mercedes?
10 Q -- everything buying a 2.5 million house and having a 10 A I don’t know. I forget what year that is.
11 Bentley and a Mercedes and a limo? 11 Q So did you at all mention to Mrs. Frazier when she
12 A No, it was years ago what I’m saying, so you’re 12 gave you her million dollars that you were going to
13 trying to say -- 13 use almost 50,000 of ministry money to make a limo?
14 Q What was years ago? 14 A We didn’t use her money to make a limo.
15 A -- is you’re not -- you’re not -- 15 Q Yeah. But did you tell her --
16 Q Well, tell me what was years ago? I don’t 16 A We had money besides her money.
17 understand. 17 Q But did you tell her that you’re going to use that
18 A In -- I gave you the dates. The -- I mean, the date 18 ministry money for a limo?
19 -- I mean -- 19 A Again, I want to say to you, for the record, that her
20 Q When you went bankrupt? 20 money was not used for a limo. We brought in way
21 A -- the years -- 21 more money than --
22 Q About that time when you decided to scale back, is 22 Q From donations?
23 that what you’re saying? 23 A -- just from donations.
24 A Yeah, but it wasn’t -- I didn’t file bankruptcy 24 Q Some donors?
25 because we were -- because of that. That wasn’t -- 25 A It don’t matter. The point is, the ministry brought
 58 (Pages 226 to 229)
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1 that in and so you cannot tell us how we allocated 1 A Yes.
2 that and used her money for that, so her money went 2 Q Do you spend any of your salary on clothing?
3 to a whole system of things so. 3 A Some.
4 Q But you got this from donations and you decided to 4 (WHEREUPON, Defendant’s Deposition
5 use it to make a limo? 5 Exhibit Number Four was marked for identification at
6 A We really invested really good, the banks use that -- 6 4:18 p.m.)
7 Q No. I’m just asking if that’s what you did? 7 BY MS. RONAYNE:
8 A No, not the way you’re saying it. It’s -- you’re 8 Q I’m going to show you Exhibit Number Four, and on
9 fortifying -- forging that. 9 November 29th, 2013, JMMI paid over $6,000 to Louis
10 Q I’m forging? 10 Vautton.
11 A Oh, yeah. You are, I mean, with your mouth, yeah. 11 A Yes.
12 MR. POTTS: Just -- the question is -- 12 Q What would that be for?
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 A Well, this is for clothes concerning my TV ministry
14 MR. POTTS: -- did you use the money 14 as well.
15 for the purpose -- 15 Q So you have to wear Louis Vuitton?
16 THE WITNESS: No. So -- 16 A It don’t matter what name it is. The point is, the
17 MR. POTTS: The answer’s yes. 17 clothing are allocated to us for ministry purposes as
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 well.
19 Q Yeah, you got donations and you used the money -- 19 Q What do you mean they’re allocated to you?
20 MR. POTTS: You got the money, you 20 A You know, in the media ministry.
21 used the money? 21 Q In the what?
22 THE WITNESS: Of course I used it. 22 A Media ministry.
23 But then -- 23 Q Yeah.
24 MR. POTTS: That’s enough. 24 Okay. Or on the road when I’m always
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 traveling and using my clothes, I’m sweating through

Page 227 Page 229

1 MR. POTTS: You don’t have to to go 1 them so I’m needing new clothes also for television
2 through a defensive mechanism. 2 ministry including yourself.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 Q And so you use ministry money to buy your wardrobe?
4 MR. POTTS: You got the money, you 4 A Outfit.
5 used the money. 5 Q Your out --
6 THE WITNESS: What about the way she’s 6 A It’s called -- allocated more towards ministry
7 making this sound. 7 apparel.
8 MR. POTTS: Don’t worry about that. 8 Q Okay. And where is that kept?
9 Just answer the question. 9 A In St. Louis.
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Okay. I won’t -- 10 Q In your home?
11 MR. POTTS: I can deal with the spin 11 A Yes, mm-hmm.
12 part of it. 12 Q Okay. And do you get -- does that go into what your
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 income is?
14 MS. RONAYNE: All right. 14 A I’m sorry?
15 MR. POTTS: You just answer the 15 Q Do you show that in your income that you got Louis
16 question, and don’t get argumentative. 16 Vuitton clothing?
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 A No, that’s not -- that’s --
18 BY MS. RONAYNE: 18 Q That doesn’t show?
19 Q We’re going to show you a bunch of JMMI bank 19 A Because it don’t go there.
20 statements and -- 20 Q It don’t go there?
21 MS. RONAYNE: So that would be four. 21 A Mm-hmm.
22 BY MS. RONAYNE: 22 Q I don’t know what that means.
23 Q -- and they’re going to show clothing charges -- 23 A It don’t belong there, that’s out of place.
24 A Mm-hmm. 24 Q What’s out of place?
25 Q -- by JMMI. 25 A You don’t get taxable things like that. That’s for
 59 (Pages 230 to 233)
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1 -- that’s for ministry business purpose so it’s 1 A I’m sure that’s right if that’s what it shows there.
2 not -- 2 Q And those were -- that was clothing for you?
3 Q Louis Vuitton? 3 A Yes. Probably, yes, mostly for --
4 A Well, it’s -- you can call whatever you want. 4 Q But you --you don’t see that there’s any problem when
5 Q Well, then, you had a month later Men’s Warehouse for 5 you’re ministering to the poor or the sick, the
6 a thousand dollars. Were these for you? 6 needy, to be appearing in Louis Vuitton and Versace?
7 A Yeah, those were suits for the TV ministry. 7 A Well, that ain’t something I purchase all the time.
8 Q And do you wear them when you’re not on the TV? 8 Q Well, it looks like you did several times in --
9 A No. Only to ministry in them when I’m traveling. 9 A I mean, I -- I’m a very frugal person when it comes
10 Q Right. When you’re on TV or otherwise you wear them? 10 to this. I go to the right places to get a lot of
11 A Yeah, television ministry. 11 suits and if I get some from those places, you don’t
12 Q But not always when you’re just on TV? 12 see that.
13 A Always, either I’m being filmed, when I’m up 13 Q I don’t see Macy’s.
14 traveling around the nation or -- 14 A No, you don’t see that -- yeah, because Macy’s don’t
15 Q So -- but like with those you’re wearing now, are 15 have the kind of suits that I wear. But what I’m
16 those purchased by JMMI? 16 saying is, this -- this Louis Vuitton things, you
17 A No, this was actually purchased by me. 17 don’t see that in our charges all the time. We used
18 Q Okay. Then you spent another $724 for the Italian 18 to get the belts --
19 Collection clothes. 19 Q Well, I see in 2000 and -- get the belts?
20 A Mm-hmm. 20 A Yes.
21 Q In April. 21 Q In 2000 -- I see you’re wearing a Burberry belt? The
22 A Yeah, I’m always buying suits. 22 same kind of thing, you go to the top of line?
23 Q Always? 23 That’s an expensive belt.
24 A Well, not always. 24 A Well, that’s the way you’re making it look quite
25 Q Always buying suits. 25 true, yeah.

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1 A But whenever we need -- when we need them so. 1 Q 2013 and ’14 you spent over -- JMMI spent over
2 Q Whenever we -- isn’t it just you? 2 $30,000 in your clothes. Does that sound about
3 A Well, I mean, because I’m the main one out front, you 3 right?
4 know. Other than that, I would sweat through all of 4 A What -- what year was that?
5 my personal clothes and they wouldn’t last long, so 5 Q ’13 and ’14.
6 the ministry can buy -- 6 A Oh, God, yes, because I was traveling so much and --
7 Q Who else does the ministry buy clothes -- 7 and sweating through all my clothes. Exactly. That
8 A Well, the ministry team, if they need suits or things 8 probably wasn’t enough because just to have so --
9 for uniforms for the ministry so. 9 Q But they have to be top of the line expensive ones?
10 Q Uniforms? 10 A No, they are not top of the line clothes.
11 A Mm-hmm. 11 Q Louis Vuitton is not top of the line?
12 Q What kind -- you have to answer -- 12 A That is not where I get my suits from.
13 A Black suits or anything that goes for choir or 13 Q Well, you got something from him --
14 ushering or -- 14 A Yeah.
15 Q Your person out there that’s a driver, do you buy his 15 Q -- you spent thousands and thousands?
16 black suit? 16 A Well, the -- the belts are more lasting so that’s
17 A I don’t -- I’m not quite sure if that was bought -- 17 good.
18 oh, no, they paid for that one their selves on -- I 18 Q Come on, you’re buying belts for $5,000?
19 can’t tell you. But we do -- we have purchased suits 19 A No. I mean --
20 for people because they work and it could be wearing 20 Q Okay.
21 down your personal clothing, tear them up so. 21 A -- I have multiple belts, not just one.
22 Q So June 2014 you spent thirty-five hundred dollars by 22 MR. POTTS: Just so the record
23 JMMI to Versace in the Bahamas. 23 reflects --
24 A Mm-hmm. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
25 Q Yes? 25 MR. POTTS: There’s an entry at Joe
 60 (Pages 234 to 237)
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1 Banks here June 11th of ’14, one of the bottom 1 A Go ahead. What is that?
2 feeding stores in the United States. 2 Q Did Debbie Frazier in any way whatsoever contribute
3 BY MS. RONAYNE: 3 to the payment of any of your legal fees?
4 Q Well, how about -- 4 A Yes, but actually I didn’t know she would do that
5 MR. POTTS: I’d just like to call your 5 until afterwards so.
6 attention to that one, too. 6 Q What do you mean? When was it and to whom?
7 BY MS. RONAYNE: 7 MR. POTTS: You don’t have to answer
8 Q How about the Gucci Store in August? 8 that question.
9 MR. POTTS: Just thing about Joe 9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 Banks. 10 MS. RONAYNE: It’s not privileged.
11 MS. RONAYNE: No, we’ll get to that. 11 MR. POTTS: Yes, it is.
12 BY MS. RONAYNE: 12 MS. RONAYNE: If Debbie Frazier --
13 Q August 2014 you went to the Gucci Store in Troy and 13 MR. POTTS: Anything related to his
14 purchased something? 14 legal fees. How, what, amount, when, how. It’s
15 A Yeah. 15 privilege.
16 Q What would that be? 16 MS. RONAYNE: I will ask the Court
17 A As I said, it probably was a belt or maybe shoes. I 17 about that because it’s not --
18 don’t know. 18 MR. POTTS: It is.
19 Q Belts or shoes. 19 MS. RONAYNE: -- attorney client
20 A But I don’t usually buy my suits from these very 20 privilege.
21 expensive places. I just get the -- the things that 21 MR. POTTS: Once you start -- once you
22 I invest in will last longer such as belts or shoes. 22 start talking about how much, the nature of the
23 Q So you’ve got to go to Gucci or places like that? 23 engagement, dates and times and places, it’s
24 A Well, no, that’s -- I buy those things from there 24 privilege.
25 because they have a better TV appearance for the 25 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.

Page 235 Page 237

1 belts and -- 1 BY MS. RONAYNE:
2 Q For asking for money from the poor? 2 Q Here there is --
3 A I mean, honestly, it ain’t really like the way you’re 3 MR. POTTS: You can ask questions that
4 making it look so. 4 are not related to what happens between him and his
5 Q Tell me how it is. 5 counsel or lawyers.
6 A Well, I mean, I don’t think you want to hear what we 6 MS. RONAYNE: I’m not asking about
7 could say -- 7 between him and his counsel.
8 Q Well, you sound like you have to drive Bentley’s and 8 MR. POTTS: Yes, you are.
9 limousines and wear Gucci. 9 MS. RONAYNE: No, no, no.
10 MR. POTTS: Just answer if there’s a 10 MR. POTTS: You’re getting -- right
11 question asked of you, answer the question. The rest 11 there.
12 of it’s just (inaudibl play -- 12 MS. RONAYNE: I asked who paid it.
13 BY MS. RONAYNE: 13 BY MS. RONAYNE:
14 Q You like to look like money? 14 Q Now, for example, on August 27th, 2000 and --
15 A No, no. No, it’s -- 15 MR. POTTS: You can say if he knows
16 Q You paid a thousand dollars to Monsieur Clothing in 16 did someone pay a sum certain on a date, if he knows.
17 New York and then another $715. Whose clothing was 17 MS. RONAYNE: Okay.
18 that for? 18 MR. POTTS: If he doesn’t know, then
19 A Where was that now? I don’t understand. 19 he can’t answer the question.
20 Q August 1st and October 28th, a total of over 20 MS. RONAYNE: All right.
21 seventeen hundred dollars to Monsieur Clothing in New 21 BY MS. RONAYNE:
22 York? 22 Q Well, what you said was you didn’t know it at the
23 A I don’t -- I do not -- I don’t know about that. 23 time but you became aware of it later, correct?
24 Q All right. Let’s talk about Debbie Frazier and the 24 THE WITNESS: Do I answer?
25 payment of your legal fees. 25 MS. RONAYNE: That’s what he said.
 61 (Pages 238 to 241)
Page 238 Page 240
1 MR. POTTS: Answer that question. 1 Q Would that be the Hertz Schram people or some other
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 lawsuit?
3 MR. POTTS: Yes, you can answer that. 3 A I don’t know. I’m not sure.
4 BY MS. RONAYNE: 4 Q Well, is there some other lawsuit that you’re
5 Q And what did you find out later? 5 involved in?
6 MR. POTTS: Objection. 6 A Not that I know of, no.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 Q So was it your understanding that Debbie Frazier paid
8 MS. RONAYNE: On what basis? 8 your legal fees to Hertz Schram as invoiced in and
9 MR. POTTS: Privilege, attorney client 9 out on the JMMI --
10 privilege. 10 A I understand -- I don’t know who it was given to, I
11 MS. RONAYNE: I don’t think it’s an 11 just heard that it happened so you will probably want
12 attorney client -- 12 to ask Michelle that.
13 MR. POTTS: I do. 13 Q When did you hear this?
14 MS. RONAYNE: Well, hold on. 14 A I can’t remember. I -- I don’t know exactly.
15 MR. POTTS: (Inaudible). 15 Q Who did you hear it from?
16 MS. RONAYNE: Debbie Frazier. 16 A Michelle shared it with me.
17 MR. POTTS: No. What did he determine 17 Q So Michelle told you that Debbie Frazier paid your
18 about payment of his attorney fee. 18 legal fees?
19 MS. RONAYNE: I’m asking him what 19 A Yeah.
20 Debbie Frazier -- what he found out about Debbie 20 Q And you see this here where it says, seventy-five
21 Frazier. 21 hundred dollars coming in.
22 MR. POTTS: What she told him, if she 22 A Okay. I see that.
23 told him -- 23 Q And then on the same day seventy --
24 BY MS. RONAYNE: 24 A What is this now? Is this -- what account is --
25 Q Do you know that Debbie Frazier paid your attorney 25 Q This is from you. This is JMMI.

Page 239 Page 241

1 fees? 1 A Oh, okay.
2 MR. POTTS: If you know. 2 Q And then --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I found out. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the
4 BY MS. RONAYNE: 4 record, it is 4:30 p.m.
5 Q Yes, you found that out, in the amount of seventy- 5 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was held at
6 five hundred dollars? 6 4:30 p.m. to 4:32 p.m.)
7 A I don’t know if -- exactly how much it was. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
8 Q Well, there’s -- August 2014 there is a seventy-five 8 record, it is 4:32 p.m.
9 hundred dollar deposit, and then in September of -- 9 BY MS. RONAYNE:
10 actually I have fake lenses in there that are 10 Q All right. So I’m going to show you documents from
11 supposed to be able to let me do this -- on the same 11 JMMI about bank transactions.
12 day, in come seventy-five hundred dollars and out 12 A Okay.
13 goes seventy-five hundred dollars, Frazier versus 13 Q And do you acknowledge that this is August 27th,
14 Frazier retainer fee for Hertz Schram. So is it your 14 2014?
15 understanding -- and this is JMMI documents, that 15 A Yes, mm-hmm.
16 Debbie Frazier gave you the seventy-five hundred 16 Q And under source is says source not disclosed yet.
17 dollars on your behalf? 17 Do you see that?
18 A Not that I know of, no. 18 A Mm-hmm.
19 Q Well, what did you find out later? 19 Q You have to answer yes or no.
20 A I just found out that she paid for some legal fees 20 A Yes, mm-hmm.
21 for me to have an attorney so that -- 21 Q And you see seventy-five hundred dollars?
22 MR. POTTS: Is that all? 22 A Right.
23 THE WITNESS: -- all the details I 23 Q And then on the same day, August 27th, 2014, it says
24 know, yes. 24 “Schram check retainer fee for Frazier versus
25 BY MS. RONAYNE: 25 Frazier,” correct?
 62 (Pages 242 to 245)
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1 A Yes, mm-hmm. 1 BY MS. RONAYNE:
2 Q And seventy-five hundred dollars. 2 Q You testified that -- at your last deposition that
3 A Yes, mm-hmm. 3 Mrs. Frazier never gave you cash?
4 Q Is it your understanding, from talking to Michelle, 4 A Yeah.
5 that that seventy-five hundred dollars that came in 5 Q Okay. And --
6 and then was routed out to pay Hertz Schram was in 6 MR. POTTS: That was asked earlier
7 fact Debbie Frazier paying for your attorney fees? 7 today, too.
8 A No, she didn’t share with me the details of that, so 8 MS. RONAYNE: Right.
9 I’m seeing this here but did -- I was never told. I 9 BY MS. RONAYNE:
10 was just told that she gave it. 10 Q However, Mrs. Frazier testified just last week that
11 Q But she didn’t pay your fees. 11 in October, just four months ago, that she gave JMMI
12 A Yes. 12 $15,000 in cash.
13 Q And that it was about the August 27th time? 13 A I had no idea about it. It didn’t come to me.
14 A I can’t remember if it was the day or not. 14 Q You had no idea you were given $15,000 in cash?
15 Q Okay. 15 A No.
16 A I’m sure you can -- 16 MR. POTTS: He was not given.
17 Q But in this timeframe, at any rate, because it 17 THE WITNESS: I was not given any.
18 wouldn’t have been any other time you retained Hertz 18 MR. POTTS: He was not given any.
19 Schram was it? 19 BY MS. RONAYNE:
20 A No, but I don’t know -- 20 Q JMMI, when I say --
21 MR. POTTS: Who retained Hertz Schram. 21 MR. POTTS: If it comes --
22 MS. RONAYNE: He. 22 THE WITNESS: I don’t know what comes
23 MR. POTTS: But she had 23 in the offer plate until they count it in the back
24 contemporaneously to this. 24 and --
25 MS. RONAYNE: Right. But I’m talking 25 BY MS. RONAYNE:

Page 243 Page 245

1 about through JMMI. It wasn’t done -- her retainer 1 Q You have no idea?
2 wasn’t -- 2 A I’m not over all of that, no.
3 MR. POTTS: Just so that it’s clear 3 Q So when you were asked if she had ever given you
4 that there was also the retention. 4 cash, you’re saying that you had no idea that Debbie
5 MS. RONAYNE: Well, that’s separate. 5 had just given you $15,000 in cash 30 days earlier?
6 MR. POTTS: At another time and space. 6 A No.
7 BY MS. RONAYNE: 7 Q Your IRS tax exempt paperwork --
8 Q Debbie Frazier’s legal fees were not paid for by 8 MR. POTTS: You know, this -- you know
9 JMMI, were they? 9 that’s not a continuation of the conversation. Can’t
10 A Not that I know of. 10 we just do what we said we were going to do. It’s
11 Q Okay. 11 now past 4:30 and I’m done right now.
12 A I don’t -- I don’t have a recollection. 12 MS. RONAYNE: Yeah. That’s all right.
13 Q So would it be a reasonable conclusion that this 13 MR. POTTS: Okay.
14 seventy-five hundred dollars that went in and then 14 VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
15 went back out for Hertz Schram was sourced through 15 deposition for the day. It is 4:36 p.m., we are off
16 Debbie Frazier? 16 the record.
17 MR. POTTS: Objection, you don’t have 17 (WHEREUPON, the deposition was
18 to answer that. It calls for speculation. You don’t 18 concluded at 4:36 p.m.)
19 have to answer -- conclude anything. 19
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20
21 BY MS. RONAYNE: 21
22 Q Do you have any information otherwise? 22
23 A (No verbal response.) 23
24 MR. POTTS: We’ve got to go, guys. 24
25 MS. RONAYNE: Okay. 25
 63 (Page 246)
Page 246
1 STATE OF MICHIGAN)
2 ) SS
3 COUNTY OF OAKLAND)
4 CERTIFICATE
5 I hereby certify that this transcript,
6 consisting of two hundred forty-six (246) pages,
7 represents the complete, true, and correct rendition
8 of the recording of the proceedings and testimony
9 taken in this case as recorded on February 10, 2015.
10 I further state that I assume no
11 responsibility for any events that occurred during
12 the above proceedings or any inaudible responses by
13 any party or parties that are not discernible in the
14 recording of the proceedings.
15
16 Karen Robinson
Karen Robinson, CER #5579
17 Certified Electronic Reporter
3133 Union Lake Road
18 Commerce Twp., Michigan 48324
(248) 360-2145
19
20 Date: February 23, 2015
21
22
23
24
25
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182:11,14,18 89:21 93:1,2 143:25 145:15 84:24 94:24 139:19,21,23
183:14,20 158:13,14 146:14,15 165:18,19,25 140:1,7,10
184:20 185:7 159:1 148:2,3,21 166:1,6,6,8,11 141:1 142:3,14
185:11 188:25 members (5) 150:2,4 151:12 166:20,21 143:2,4,11
191:22 192:17 36:3 81:6 155:19 157:22 168:1,4 211:2 144:7 149:4
195:17 196:21 171:11 173:10 158:2 162:9 211:4 216:16 152:24 159:15
200:22,23 184:6 175:22 177:4,8 ministered (1) 159:22 160:10
201:19 202:12 memo (2) 175:9 177:10,14,23 92:19 160:11,18
206:24 209:4,8 176:12 178:17 179:4 ministering (2) 161:1,3 162:2
210:21 211:2,5 memphis (2) 180:7,10,14 19:21 232:5 166:14 167:21
212:18,21 100:4 164:12 183:8,23 ministers (3) 167:24 168:2,4
213:9,15,25 men (1) 230:5 184:13,16 83:5 86:21 168:5,8 169:4
214:2,6,7,24 mental (1) 77:22 186:2 187:14 165:24 172:22,22
222:14,22,22 mention (2) 188:25 189:25 ministries (15) 173:20 175:23
222:24 223:18 195:13 225:11 196:25 205:2 52:6,11,13 179:18 181:14
223:19 225:6 mentioned (1) 206:10 208:18 57:9 60:15 182:10,15
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183:17,21 misworded (1) 129:18,22 83:12 89:18 months (5)

184:9,11 189:6 125:23 132:13 135:21 111:9 130:6,7 13:19 161:7
198:23 199:9 mitchell (6) 136:2 143:22 130:9,10,11 194:13,14
200:18,19 126:2,4,9,10 144:20 149:10 132:15,17 244:11
201:8,9 203:4 126:21 128:23 150:6 153:6 133:24 134:12 mortgage (4)
203:22 208:22 mixed (2) 161:12,14 136:25 137:10 148:18 187:25
208:24 209:2,6 127:11 186:20 162:4,6,12,14 137:11 139:21 188:2 202:2
209:9,12 mixing (1) 51:16 162:24 163:1 139:25 140:6 mother (4) 8:7
210:21 212:19 mm (2) 58:17 164:10,15,17 141:3,15,15 8:13 71:10
213:23 214:1 96:25 164:24 166:25 142:12,12 162:22
214:11,25 mmhmm (182) 167:10 168:14 143:15,19,21 motion (2) 5:12
215:9,13 7:7 8:14,16 169:17 171:15 144:10 145:6 110:13
216:13 217:4,4 9:14,18,22,24 172:8 175:21 145:11,21 mouth (2)
222:3,8 224:7 10:5,18,20 176:19,25,25 146:3 149:11 224:10 226:11
225:13,18,25 11:22 12:2,15 177:2,5 178:18 149:25 150:12 move (3) 11:9
228:13,17,20 13:13 15:3 178:25 183:25 150:17 153:19 114:16 160:16
228:22 229:2,3 16:25 19:9 187:19 189:3 154:6,13,15 moved (1)
229:6 230:1,7 20:13,15 21:7 189:16 190:23 160:1 162:1 160:13
230:9,11 231:6 21:17 24:4,6 191:13 193:21 169:8 177:18 movement (3)
231:7,8,9 24:14 25:8,23 194:5 195:7 180:22 183:17 84:11,13,14
minute (1) 77:1 28:3,17 29:16 199:25 200:11 183:21 186:15 movie (4)
miracle (1) 29:18 30:2 201:6 202:6 187:2 188:19 217:12,13,15
78:11 31:25 32:17 203:6 209:11 190:18 192:10 217:22
miracles (10) 34:17 35:3 209:25 213:8 195:2 196:9,13 moving (2) 11:6
76:8,20 77:16 36:19 37:19,21 214:4,15 196:14,15 11:7
78:11,13,19 38:24 51:23 215:25 216:4,9 197:20,25 multiple (3)
80:24 85:18 55:20 56:20 216:22 217:14 198:4,13,16,17 81:10 138:17
89:2,6 57:15 58:21 217:21 218:24 199:4,5 200:24 233:21
miscommunic... 59:6,8,12 219:2,24 220:1 201:14,22
106:3 60:16 61:16 220:3,15,19 202:16 207:16 N
miscommunic... 62:1,15,17 221:4,6,23 207:17 214:8 name (62) 4:8
105:18 64:7,9,11 222:11,13 214:20,23 10:1 21:12,14
misguided (1) 65:13,20 69:3 227:24 229:11 225:4,13,14,16 24:17,19,21
108:12 73:7 74:23 229:21 230:20 225:16,18,20 28:3 34:7
misleading (1) 75:14 76:15 231:11,24 225:21 226:2,2 49:21,22 50:10
115:9 79:16,19 80:6 241:15,18,20 226:14,19,20 50:13 51:4,6
misquoting (1) 80:14 81:14 242:1,3 226:21 227:4,5 58:6 60:17
88:16 82:3,14,21 mmuh (10) 229:3 235:2,14 61:1,11,20,22
missed (4) 85:23 86:6,12 29:13 64:18 monsieur (2) 62:3,5 63:18
105:23,24,25 89:4,9 91:5 73:15 82:25 235:16,21 70:9,11,13,13
109:4 92:2 94:10 115:15 126:5 montana (2) 70:14,15 73:3
missouri (5) 95:19 97:18 132:6,10 216:7,8 73:5 75:16
27:21 49:4 103:16,18 133:19 152:19 month (13) 9:16 76:9,12,21
220:25 221:2,3 104:17 105:1,5 modify (1) 9:17 16:16 81:22 84:2
mistaken (1) 105:12 107:25 110:14 57:3 69:24 88:5 120:22
216:6 108:3,5 109:13 money (101) 188:9 189:5,13 126:22 128:24
mistakes (1) 116:23 119:5 29:8 30:20 194:11,19 135:15 141:1
106:4 121:23 125:8 38:5 54:18 195:4,4 230:5 165:15 167:25
misused (1) 125:10,25 55:16,19,22 monthly (1) 177:25 179:15
213:24 128:14 129:16 57:1 79:4 175:18 183:15 193:14
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212:14 215:11 needs (4) 36:5 47:25 42:25 164:18 188:5

215:13,16,24 80:21 199:9 notice (3) 5:17 obviously (3) 188:13 190:11
216:1 217:17 221:11 197:22 209:23 105:22 115:11 190:13 196:6
217:17,18 needy (1) 232:6 notified (1) 176:23 209:2 212:16
218:7,7 228:16 negatives (1) 75:23 occasionally (1) 219:8 222:4
named (7) 44:5 114:24 november (11) 12:21 226:11 231:18
44:6 45:16 neither (1) 5:13 7:5,6,11 occur (3) 55:10 233:6 241:1
54:15 57:9 52:13 37:16 40:21 92:6 119:6 ohio (2) 19:24
62:21 63:2 never (24) 17:6 175:19 178:21 occurred (3) 124:24
names (5) 22:14 53:23,25 64:25 189:14 193:24 119:15 121:24 okay (202) 6:3
51:16 164:1 85:20 118:15 228:9 246:11 6:19,22,25
186:19 218:18 118:17 120:10 number (12) 3:9 october (9) 7:12,13,23
narrowly (1) 126:8 140:22 3:10 16:19 175:18 187:16 8:17 9:3,19,25
6:17 142:8,12 144:9 22:13 115:1 193:23 206:4 10:17 13:8,9
nation (2) 25:4 144:14 148:12 138:10,11 220:16,16,20 13:14,21 15:24
230:14 149:3 150:17 151:1 184:5 235:20 244:11 23:18 24:1,2,7
national (1) 157:18 160:25 220:10 228:5,8 offensive (5) 25:11,16,24
20:17 162:20 165:4 numbers (1) 216:17,20 26:17 30:12
nature (1) 224:10 242:9 186:20 219:5,7,9 31:16,19,25
236:22 244:3 offer (3) 81:10 32:19 33:3
necessarily (2) new (10) 11:9 O 81:13 244:23 34:4,22,25
11:12 13:5 61:1 62:3,5 o (2) 123:1,3 offering (3) 42:8 43:4
necessary (2) 78:8 92:17 oakland (3) 1:2 141:12,12 45:23 47:13,23
6:8 97:20 120:23 229:1 4:12 246:3 142:7 48:23 49:11,14
need (48) 23:8 235:17,21 oaks (2) 27:20 offerings (1) 51:8 52:1,15
25:19 29:4 nexus (1) 110:13 28:14 140:15 53:11,14,16
39:14,18,24 nick (1) 4:8 oath (3) 123:13 offers (1) 82:4 56:13 62:9
41:10 43:12,13 nickname (1) 127:16,21 office (14) 5:18 63:18 69:25
53:2,4 70:16 128:25 object (6) 47:5 15:22 31:16 71:25 73:2,4
78:22 80:17,19 night (3) 25:18 53:2 66:12 32:3 33:16,17 74:13,17 79:13
80:21 83:22 25:25 168:23 110:11 123:4 33:18 34:12,14 79:20 80:2
103:22 127:21 nights (1) 26:6 153:20 34:19,22 56:4 83:1 84:9,13
150:21 167:5 nonprofit (2) objection (26) 95:11 218:9 86:1,17 88:3
172:19 176:4 130:17 174:3 38:18 39:1,3 officer (2) 47:19 88:21 89:8
179:2,4 182:18 nonprofits (1) 41:5,6,8 43:23 49:9 90:7,15,22
189:24 195:21 198:17 44:9,13,22,25 offices (3) 1:12 93:14,24 96:4
197:2,22 199:4 nope (1) 126:9 45:15 46:11,23 15:25 57:5 96:10,20 99:8
200:20,22 normal (4) 47:3,7,8 48:22 official (1) 85:5 100:2,8 101:4
201:21 203:8 79:14 80:25 49:8 70:23 oh (40) 8:12,12 102:12 103:5
203:24 204:8 81:4 134:6 110:9,21 17:18 19:5 107:1 109:18
204:10 205:2 normally (6) 111:10 155:1 23:18 26:21 110:7,22 114:1
206:9 207:9 22:2 80:22 238:6 243:17 38:16 69:23 114:6,9,11,14
208:19 213:6 83:19,20 objective (2) 79:12 82:23 114:17,19
215:20 218:18 168:10 207:2 79:3,21 87:23 95:4,9 116:13,20
231:1,1,8 north (1) 19:24 obligation (3) 99:21 100:18 117:14,18
needed (4) 20:11 notation (1) 85:14 86:21 105:16 120:8 118:5 119:12
62:5 78:8 175:20 196:17 122:14 134:24 119:15 121:16
149:23 note (1) 191:7 obstructive (1) 136:24 137:8 121:17 122:14
needing (1) notfor (1) 46:5 72:3 137:19,22 122:16 123:4
229:1 notforprofit (1) obtained (1) 139:7,8 152:6 125:24 128:1,7
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128:7,16,22 47:11 94:20,22 18:14,16 19:12 P 56:11 61:20,22

131:11 132:24 111:1 49:6 146:21 p (19) 39:22 73:10 78:4,9
133:11 134:10 ongoingotts (1) 147:13,23 77:10,12 82:19,21,23
134:24 135:2 47:11 151:9 122:19,21,21 83:1,5 84:11
135:17 136:17 onstaff (1) 13:14 ordination (1) 122:23 123:7,9 84:15,15 85:11
137:11,17 open (3) 108:18 166:19 123:9,11 88:10,10 89:3
138:25 146:6,7 174:6 199:20 organization (5) 220:11 228:6 89:6,18,19
147:22 150:4,7 opened (3) 79:10 82:17,19 241:4,6,6,8 93:20 123:25
153:7,15 163:2 125:19,21 166:2 175:5 245:15,18 127:25 159:14
164:9 165:11 160:23 organize (1) p19043 (1) 1:23 159:22 171:5
167:17 169:21 operate (2) 31:3 p33560 (1) 1:18 184:15 207:8,8
170:3 171:9,21 186:5,11 original (1) p68818 (1) 1:20 214:24 227:12
173:6,9 176:14 operates (1) 188:14 package (1) participate (3)
177:7 178:21 186:8 orlando (6) 170:12 13:18 85:9
180:23 183:14 operation (1) 170:22 171:14 page (1) 3:2 151:11
185:1,1 186:12 29:23 171:18 172:1 pages (1) 246:6 participated (1)
187:16 189:9 operations (1) 173:9,15 paid (29) 22:5 61:15
192:5 194:6,7 162:2 ought (2) 72:6 75:17 134:20 particular (1)
196:12 202:9 opinion (22) 72:18 135:25 138:4,5 102:2
204:7,14,20 5:11 6:6,11 outcome (2) 163:22 167:19 parties (2) 12:1
205:16,20,22 71:17,20 95:17 69:4 116:8 171:1,4,7 246:13
205:25 207:20 97:7 102:8,11 outfit (1) 229:4 172:7 173:10 parts (3) 25:4
208:2 211:14 110:20 111:10 outlets (2) 95:14 175:16,25 96:15 196:14
214:3 218:1,18 111:19 174:9 95:15 202:25 203:25 party (7) 47:21
219:14,15 174:11 185:12 outreach (2) 206:2 220:20 48:25 53:8
220:6,16,17,20 185:13,23 77:18 93:9 224:25 228:9 97:21 98:1
221:7 222:2 186:1 197:13 outreaches (1) 231:18 235:16 140:13 246:13
224:8,19,21,23 199:2 205:3,12 94:25 237:12 238:25 pass (3) 17:3
226:13,25 opportunities ... outside (1) 239:20 240:7 107:14 111:14
227:3,10,13,17 138:2 183:21 240:17 243:8 passing (1)
228:24 229:8 opportunity (6) outward (1) palm (3) 19:25 16:22
229:12 230:18 6:12 79:23 183:20 24:8,17 pastor (10)
233:20 236:9 80:8,10 94:4,8 overhead (3) papers (2) 174:7 17:15,16 21:11
236:25 237:17 opposed (2) 30:20 83:14 207:9 23:1,1,1 24:20
240:22 241:1 12:20,21 130:13 paperwork (2) 24:20 81:5
241:12 242:15 orchard (3) 1:13 overnight (1) 163:10 245:7 212:9
243:11,20,25 1:18 4:10 156:1 paraphrase (1) pastors (3)
244:5 245:13 ordained (2) oversee (1) 90:6 216:6,8 217:9
old (7) 38:3,4 166:18,19 15:17 pardon (4) pat (1) 212:15
95:23 113:16 order (23) 5:11 owed (3) 55:16 22:25 23:15 patched (1)
124:5 167:8,11 5:14 7:10 18:6 55:19,22 65:4 117:10 150:3
older (1) 8:9 38:19 40:21 owing (1) 54:17 parenting (4) patrick (2)
oldest (1) 155:16 41:11,16,18,19 owned (3) 9:11 110:15 54:15,24
once (4) 13:19 41:21 42:9,17 148:14 157:4,5 147:14 156:13 paul (2) 119:8
16:16 236:21 42:24 44:3,16 owner (5) 188:5 parents (1) 119:10
236:21 45:15 46:24 188:5,21 165:4 pause (1) 123:19
ones (4) 200:2 125:13 145:20 190:17 192:11 part (37) 13:6 pay (51) 9:13,15
210:16 217:16 146:1,3,19 owns (2) 55:18 13:15 14:22 22:4 23:3,4,9
233:9 orders (10) 207:24 15:17 54:16 23:10 36:18
ongoing (4) 14:23 15:16 83:6,7,8,18
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94:14 131:25 35:11,13 37:2 204:6 210:23 134:7 135:23 218:11 229:23
132:1,4,5,11 37:5 38:4 44:4 212:21,22 135:25 136:13 229:24
134:17,19 44:6 45:15 213:1 216:18 140:6 141:9 places (21) 9:20
135:1 145:8 75:25 76:5,23 216:24 218:17 142:8 146:20 19:21,23,25
148:23 149:1,4 77:19,20,21,21 218:23 221:19 212:9 20:1,2 29:7
149:5,5,9 77:24 78:8,9 224:6 225:5 pettis (1) 64:21 91:11,12 92:7
150:16 159:4 79:6,7,17,21 231:20 240:1 phone (15) 93:19 118:6
160:13,15 79:23 80:10,17 perceive (1) 15:19 34:22 119:7 166:24
168:24 170:6 80:19,20 81:6 17:15 67:8 76:24 209:15 212:7
172:21 173:4 82:10 83:2 percent (6) 129:8,11 232:10,11
173:18 189:18 85:21 86:10,18 134:14 135:7 149:19 150:1,1 234:21,23
194:10 201:17 87:4,8,11,20 136:1 194:25 158:20,23 236:23
201:19 202:1,7 88:5,22,24 207:1,13 181:12,17,23 placing (1)
203:7 204:24 89:17,21,22 period (5) 42:17 181:25 216:21
207:16,17 90:10 91:13,25 156:2 163:2 phones (3) 31:4 plainer (1)
215:4 237:16 92:11,14,17 165:5 178:8 33:7,17 13:10
242:6,11 93:1,2,17 94:3 permission (1) phonetic (4) plaintiff (5) 1:5
paycheck (2) 94:4,7,8,19 5:19 23:14 24:20 5:18 53:7
130:11 140:16 95:7,9 100:9 person (34) 56:20 81:22 54:24 97:25
paying (8) 36:6 100:11 103:4,8 12:17,24 13:3 physical (11) plan (2) 38:15
73:11 175:10 103:21 104:3 16:8 18:12,19 77:22 87:18 197:23
177:9 189:5 106:9,15,21 18:22 25:6 88:12 118:18 plane (1) 172:21
194:20,21 107:17,19 36:16 38:17 118:19,23 plate (5) 111:14
242:7 108:11,19 47:16 49:12 119:2,9,16 142:8 201:3,11
payment (11) 115:9,12,18 92:4 99:15 120:17 121:12 244:23
187:17,21 116:13,16 100:7,11,15,18 physically (4) plates (1) 142:13
189:4,21 121:2,11 122:6 100:19,24 24:22,24 68:18 platform (1)
195:14,24 122:25 127:16 101:2 106:22 99:22 107:22
196:23 199:12 129:4,14,24 107:9 119:14 pick (3) 20:9 play (5) 60:17
235:25 236:3 130:1,8 131:8 126:8 140:2 96:15 217:8 111:25 113:3
238:18 131:13,15 141:22 176:15 picked (1) 224:17 235:12
payments (4) 134:14 137:4 187:12 188:6 218:14 played (1)
169:18 175:18 137:18 139:6 189:1 215:24 picture (1) 112:19
191:15 195:4 139:19,25 231:15 232:9 26:16 playing (5)
payroll (2) 140:5,20 personal (25) ping (1) 179:12 112:3,9,21
162:7,10 141:15 142:6 37:11,14 57:23 pioneered (1) 113:9,14
pays (5) 22:1 142:25 143:2 70:21 73:11 22:21 plays (1) 113:7
83:14 194:23 144:9 149:5 101:1,11 103:3 place (39) 11:9 please (4) 4:13
213:9,10 151:6 155:25 103:3 120:3 23:8 25:21 4:25 68:9
pending (1) 69:5 156:8 158:9,15 127:4 133:14 27:4,6 28:25 99:20
penitent (2) 159:19 165:1 133:15,17 29:3,5 30:16 point (16) 18:12
97:24 101:17 167:2 171:6 134:11 135:22 31:7 34:2,3,6,8 19:1 28:8 43:6
people (163) 173:24 174:3 136:8,11 34:13,15,16,24 90:19 106:21
11:11 12:12 174:17,19 139:20 140:4 34:25 35:9 109:5 111:5
14:5 17:23,25 179:23 180:21 160:1 178:10 36:5 38:13,14 116:3 162:22
18:14 21:6,23 181:16,16,24 192:10 231:5 78:10 83:4,8 194:4 202:15
22:3 25:13,14 182:3,25 231:21 92:18 141:12 202:15 218:23
29:5 30:9,17 183:16 195:20 personally (14) 150:18 160:23 225:25 228:16
30:24 31:1 197:20,24 16:21 52:21 175:8,20 176:7 poling (1) 49:6
32:3 34:22 198:2,3 199:17 57:14,16 91:1 187:1,8 208:15 politician (1)
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politicians (2) 45:6,9,18,24 192:1,3,5,12 prepares (2) 133:3,5 151:5
217:9 218:3 46:10,15 47:2 193:5,8,17 131:17 164:13 166:4 175:1,21
pong (1) 179:12 47:6,13,17,24 194:1,4,6 preparing (2) 176:4 179:2,4
pool (8) 12:1 48:3,6,8,10,13 197:17 205:5,8 10:9 178:15 193:1 195:7
178:23 179:7,9 48:16,18,21,24 205:11,14,17 presbyterian (1) 197:1 205:2
179:10 202:25 49:14,17 50:13 205:21,23 22:13 206:9 232:3
203:7,16 50:19 51:3,10 207:18,21 presence (2) 233:8 234:17
poor (5) 77:24 52:24 53:2,6 226:12,14,17 119:16 155:23 240:11
77:25 216:16 53:10,12,15 226:20,24 present (3) 2:2 problem (3)
232:5 235:2 54:7 58:19,22 227:1,4,8,11 24:24 154:12 5:24 39:7
pope (3) 211:5 58:25 59:19,22 227:15 233:22 presentation (1) 232:4
211:12,24 62:16 66:8,12 233:25 234:5,9 113:6 procedurally (...
port (3) 120:21 66:16,23 67:3 235:10 236:7 presented (1) 86:9
121:22 122:10 67:6,12,15,20 236:11,13,18 140:17 proceeding (2)
portfolio (1) 68:6,24 70:6,9 236:21 237:3,8 presently (1) 206:25,25
198:24 70:11,13,23 237:10,15,18 154:13 proceedings (9)
pose (1) 66:24 71:1,6,12,15 238:1,3,6,9,13 preserve (1) 47:21,22 57:18
posed (1) 47:20 71:17,19,23 238:15,17,22 72:1 66:9 70:7
positive (3) 30:4 72:1,5,10,18 239:2,22 president (1) 144:23 246:8
56:2 131:21 74:5 77:2,4 242:21,23 42:6 246:12,14
possessions (1) 90:5,13,16 243:3,6,17,24 pretty (2) 72:15 process (7)
11:8 96:11 97:9,14 244:6,16,18,21 209:20 79:22 180:21
possible (1) 97:19,23,25 245:8,13 previous (1) 182:7,16,23
120:8 98:11,14,18,21 power (4) 76:1 95:16 183:5 207:9
post (1) 108:1 99:6,9 101:6,8 86:20 121:10 previously (2) produce (3)
posted (1) 101:15,22,25 180:3 44:14,24 40:25 46:21
104:24 102:5,10,14 pray (13) 77:24 price (3) 180:25 72:2
posting (2) 110:9,12,17,21 79:8,17 81:4,6 191:16,18 produced (6)
108:7,9 110:23 111:2,5 82:11 86:22 priestly (2) 97:6 37:17 41:12,14
postpone (1) 111:9,12,19,22 87:1,23,24 99:5 41:16 46:20
20:21 112:1,4,7,12 88:21 89:6 primary (1) 9:3 49:3
postponed (1) 112:15,18,23 120:21 private (2) 97:6 products (2)
20:8 113:1,4,6,9,13 prayer (3) 80:21 99:4 94:3,11
potts (283) 1:23 113:17,23,25 88:18,20 privilege (13) professional (4)
4:16,16 5:7,10 114:2,4,7,10 praying (2) 5:13 45:14 131:13,15
6:2,10,20,23 114:12,15 119:7,19 67:10,16,21 177:20 184:12
7:3,5 10:21,23 123:1,2,16 preach (2) 22:8 96:7 98:12 professionally...
32:13,18,20,23 130:25 135:14 24:12 101:17 236:15 155:3
33:6,10,13 136:15,25 preacher (2) 236:20,24 professionals (...
38:18,22,25 144:19 145:1 24:9 184:10 238:9,10 174:2 184:12
39:4,10,12,17 145:22 146:22 preaches (1) privileged (5) profile (6) 217:9
39:22 40:6,10 146:25 147:3,6 115:15 39:5 46:24 217:11,11
40:15,19,23 147:9,11,15 preaching (2) 102:8,8 236:10 218:2 219:4
41:2,5,10,15 148:21 151:17 19:21 85:22 probably (30) 221:19
41:20,22 42:1 152:5 153:8,14 preliminary (1) 13:23 24:1 profit (1) 46:6
42:5,8,13,15 153:20,25 5:7 27:3 46:5 pronounce (2)
42:20 43:4,6,9 154:8 155:1,5 prepared (1) 51:18 54:23 10:1 189:11
43:12,17,20 155:9 185:19 164:18 56:1 59:16 pronounced (1)
44:1,7,12,17 185:21 191:11 preparer (2) 63:3 73:4 71:9
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197:14,18 46:1 210:21 putting (3) 188:24 144:25 145:6

211:17 publicized (1) 141:18 192:6 151:1,4 159:17
properly (1) 39:12 224:10 R 162:9 177:11
177:18 published (1) r (1) 246:4 177:13 204:10
property (8) 46:18 Q radio (1) 139:1 204:15 213:22
26:9,12,13 pull (1) 185:5 qualification (2) raise (2) 5:2 216:18 219:13
189:13 192:1 pulling (1) 185:7 166:7 168:22 154:15 223:1,2 226:6
193:5 194:22 purchase (23) qualified (3) raised (3) 5:13 226:6 235:3
198:21 178:21 179:1 155:9 182:8,9 196:8 198:1 realm (6) 118:18
prophecies (1) 180:2 181:6,7 qualify (3) raising (1) 118:19,23
116:13 184:8 187:21 165:20 182:10 202:10 119:2,9 120:17
prophecy (5) 188:19 190:6 182:13 ran (2) 7:8 reason (6) 6:17
107:16 114:21 191:9,16,18,24 quandary (1) 180:16 58:10 61:21
115:1 116:10 194:1 195:3 6:18 range (3) 219:17 64:6 110:24
116:11 198:21 201:12 question (43) 219:18,19 116:15
prophesize (1) 203:22 205:3 5:12 6:7,7 32:8 rare (1) 16:22 reasonable (1)
108:16 206:22 207:3,8 32:14,15,21 rate (4) 194:17 243:13
prophet (13) 232:7 39:14 45:3,25 194:20,25 reasoning (2)
104:12,19 purchased (9) 46:12 47:8,14 242:17 61:20 64:3
114:19,20,23 10:19 198:23 58:19 66:13 ratio (1) 58:14 reasons (1)
114:25 115:4,7 203:4,4 204:8 78:17 90:5,13 raw (1) 201:12 198:22
115:10,14,17 230:16,17 97:11,16 99:7 reach (6) 94:23 recall (7) 51:4
116:6,12 231:19 234:14 101:9 102:2 95:1,2,3 104:3 60:11 142:20
prophetize (1) purchases (1) 109:21 142:4 224:6 163:2,14 188:7
106:14 181:5 153:9,21 155:2 reachable (1) 206:12
prophets (4) purchasing (6) 189:1 191:12 89:21 receipt (1) 173:7
105:23,25 188:17 190:24 191:18 205:19 read (11) 6:12 receipts (1)
115:11 116:14 199:6 203:11 207:19,21 42:18 96:13 131:19
proprietorshi... 203:11,13 216:15 226:12 99:17,18,20,21 receive (11)
135:13 purgatory (1) 227:9,16 100:25 102:7 24:15 39:20
protect (1) 72:5 49:4 235:11,11 115:25 224:12 92:20,21 93:21
protected (1) purpose (6) 236:8 237:19 reading (1) 140:25 141:22
44:21 28:24 32:1 238:1 98:17 142:1,12
protection (1) 147:3 179:18 questioning (3) ready (1) 77:13 163:20 168:25
66:24 226:15 230:1 71:7,21 110:13 real (5) 48:24 received (3)
protective (4) purposeful (1) questions (11) 63:10,11 115:3 42:25 142:12
42:23 44:16 79:2 32:10 47:20 199:6 176:7
46:24 65:21 purposes (2) 59:25 97:11 realize (2) 151:9 receiving (2)
protects (1) 44:4 42:4 228:17 109:22 114:5 157:16 139:22 177:18
provide (8) pursuant (3) 114:16 155:10 really (47) 14:19 recess (4) 77:9
135:4 160:3,6 5:16,17 49:3 183:2 205:15 16:12,15,16 122:20 123:8
160:9 189:7 put (19) 50:6 237:3 17:2 18:1,3,17 241:5
191:5 197:16 83:4,8 110:2 quite (7) 96:9 27:7,19 35:23 recognition (1)
213:3 112:11 137:7 142:20 163:4 50:22 55:5,14 189:20
provided (7) 137:15 142:3 171:20 175:21 56:8,10 60:5 recognize (1)
129:6,14 142:10 187:8 231:17 232:24 69:19,23 71:23 157:3
134:13 189:8 190:18 192:7 quote (12) 105:2 73:9 105:18 recollection (3)
195:5,8 197:12 194:9 195:12 105:4,6,8,9,11 107:12 117:23 51:11 96:12
public (8) 39:7,8 195:24 199:11 108:25 109:7 136:18 138:7 243:12
40:3,4 43:8,10 207:1,4,5 109:10,10,12 142:4,6 143:16 reconcile (1)
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74:6 regularly (3) 100:20 101:2 report (9) 36:24 residence (9)
record (21) 4:5 35:12 157:16 107:2,10 126:4 91:21 92:1 10:8,12,13,16
4:14 5:20 77:6 157:18 127:14 128:5 131:5 139:14 30:3 96:25
77:10,12 99:18 rehab (10) 81:12 163:3 170:1,16 139:16 140:8 156:1 160:14
101:10,12 81:13,17 82:4 170:21 171:12 170:4 171:3 160:16
108:14 112:11 82:6 84:19 172:13,14 reported (4) residential (19)
122:19,23 85:6,11,16 173:12 174:14 39:13,15 43:14 10:16,17 11:2
123:7,11,20 216:19 174:17,20 173:22 27:15 28:18
225:19 233:22 reimburse (2) 175:6 179:5 reporter (6) 29:14 30:17,23
241:4,8 245:16 23:10 159:19 197:4 199:18 4:24 5:1,6 187:21 189:10
recorded (2) 2:4 reimbursed (2) 240:14 242:14 224:17,21 190:8,10,11
246:9 159:11,13 remote (1) 15:9 246:17 193:20 203:5,6
recording (7) relate (2) 97:16 rendered (1) reporting (2) 208:5,8,12
111:24 112:1 102:2 5:11 2:4 44:15 residentially (1)
112:19 113:7 related (6) 57:24 rendition (1) reports (1) 209:15
175:9 246:8,14 101:18 124:12 246:7 91:24 residing (1) 59:5
records (1) 167:17 236:13 rent (26) 9:21 represent (3) resign (2) 163:7
140:14 237:4 22:8 131:25 4:17 43:21 163:8
reduced (1) relation (1) 132:1,4,5,12 65:6 resignation (1)
222:16 124:14 134:17,19,20 represented (2) 163:11
redundant (1) relationship (6) 135:1 156:23 44:1 195:10 resigned (2)
109:23 26:9 28:8,12 157:8,8,14 representing (2) 163:6,10
refer (5) 34:10 60:2 97:20 175:10,10,16 4:23 43:24 resolved (2)
34:13 36:16 201:14 175:25 176:13 represents (2) 55:25 66:11
37:2 63:12 relaying (1) 177:4,10 43:22 246:7 resort (3)
reference (1) 118:10 184:17,23 reputable (4) 170:15 172:7
12:9 relevancy (4) 186:2 189:13 107:17,19 174:12
referred (2) 47:3,7 70:23 rental (1) 9:21 166:13 167:6 resorts (2)
28:15 49:3 71:3 rented (1) request (4) 79:4 171:19 174:22
referring (10) relevant (1) 157:11 93:2 143:10 respond (1)
8:23 17:21 111:2 rents (2) 9:25 170:10 32:11
19:7,11 42:21 relocate (1) 28:2 require (2) response (2)
56:16 62:25 160:17 renttoown (1) 155:2 210:18 47:18 243:23
84:19 89:2 relocated (1) 196:23 required (6) responses (1)
198:2 5:25 repairs (1) 38:20 40:23,25 246:12
refers (2) 44:18 relocating (1) 202:25 41:6,7 44:14 responsibilitie...
155:22 155:13 repeat (2) 147:5 requirement (1) 18:25
reflected (2) relocation (1) 224:21 46:3 responsibility ...
195:25 197:9 5:21 repeatedly (1) requires (3) 86:22 160:18
reflects (1) rely (1) 18:22 157:3 42:9 43:18 246:11
233:23 remember (51) repent (1) 170:9 responsible (3)
refresh (1) 20:1,3 22:14 103:22 requiring (1) 151:7 196:19
96:11 24:19,21 38:7 repentant (1) 5:15 197:1
regarding (2) 57:11,12 58:1 104:4 rescheduled (1) responsibly (1)
5:12 43:1 58:4,6,6,11,16 repenting (1) 7:9 196:18
regency (1) 2:4 58:17,18 61:10 103:14 resembling (1) rest (1) 235:11
registering (1) 62:8,22 64:14 rephrase (2) 179:8 result (2) 57:24
75:16 64:16,18 69:13 13:9 161:19 reserve (1) 5:24 87:1
regular (2) 69:19 78:15 replace (1) reside (1) resurrection (6)
11:12 35:25 98:16 99:15 203:9 164:11 57:9 60:14
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61:4,9,23 71:18 74:22 risen (1) 104:10 90:15,18 96:13 238:4,8,11,14

62:11 76:17 77:16 road (15) 1:13 96:17 97:12,22 238:16,19,24
retain (2) 70:18 78:14 84:18 1:18,21,23 2:4 97:24 98:5,13 239:4,25 241:9
70:20 85:8,17,18 4:10 26:10,12 98:23 99:8,10 242:22,25
retained (5) 86:2 87:10 28:5 56:22 101:10,12,20 243:5,7,21,25
70:19,24 73:6 92:13,22 93:13 172:23 196:9 101:23 102:4,6 244:1,8,9,19
242:18,21 93:22 97:22 198:19 228:24 102:12,17,18 244:25 245:12
retainer (5) 99:18 100:19 246:17 110:10,16,19 room (6) 30:5,7
75:17 199:24 100:21,23 robinson (3) 110:22,25 30:8,10,11
239:14 241:24 101:20 102:7 212:15 246:16 111:4,8,11,17 119:1
243:1 102:16 104:5 246:16 111:20,23 rooms (1)
retention (1) 110:5,16 111:8 role (1) 61:4 112:3,6,10,14 178:23
243:4 115:24 116:1 ronayne (283) 112:16,21,24 rosemiller (1)
retirement (1) 129:3 132:25 1:13,18 3:4 113:3,5,11,19 207:11
148:5 134:21 139:4 4:15,19,19 5:9 114:18 122:14 routed (1) 242:6
return (9) 36:25 144:20 148:4 5:23 6:3,19,22 122:17,24 routinely (1)
40:17 56:3 149:16 153:11 6:25 7:4,6,8,13 123:4,12,15,18 168:6
126:1,10 127:4 154:21 155:11 7:17 10:24 123:21 129:10 rover (5) 219:16
128:9 135:15 157:13 159:20 11:1 33:3,4,15 129:13 131:4 219:17,18,19
173:23 159:23 167:8 38:19,23 39:2 135:16 136:16 219:19
returns (4) 169:6,20 170:5 39:8,11,15,19 137:3 145:23 row (1) 26:7
43:15 45:5 172:3,11 40:1,4,8,12,18 145:25 146:24 run (11) 5:24
131:9 164:14 174:10 175:7 40:20,25 41:4 147:1,4,8,10 29:19 57:5
review (2) 96:23 178:1 181:2,13 41:9,13,18,21 147:12,18 78:9 81:17
182:20 181:23 182:5 41:23 42:3,6 151:18 152:9 83:12 84:4,5
rewire (1) 98:21 182:12 183:6 42:11,14,18,23 153:11,12,16 84:25 85:13
reword (1) 90:2 185:1,8 187:5 43:5,7,11,14 153:22 154:1 181:4
rich (1) 77:2 190:12 194:12 43:24 44:3,10 154:17 155:4,8 running (3)
richard (3) 195:20 199:11 44:16,18,21 155:12 165:8 14:22 78:9
217:18,19,19 199:22 201:2 45:1,4,7,12,23 165:11,13 162:3
rick (6) 2:2 4:20 202:5,24 46:8,13,19,22 170:10,13 runs (2) 37:9
4:23 144:22 203:25 209:10 47:4,10,12,15 176:11 185:25 85:7
147:20 184:3 209:20 210:17 47:23 48:2,5,7 191:7,13,17,22
ricky (3) 1:7 211:17 219:22 48:9,11,15,17 192:15 193:11 S
4:11 77:4 222:5 227:14 48:19,23 49:11 193:19,22 s (707) 1:21 4:6
ride (1) 156:25 230:10 232:1 49:16,19 50:20 194:8 197:17 5:18,18 6:10
right (124) 5:2 232:10 233:3 51:7,13 53:17 197:19 205:5 6:13,13,16 8:1
5:24 8:9 9:10 235:24 237:10 54:9 58:21,24 205:10 206:1 8:3,4 9:10,21
10:24 13:11,20 237:20 241:10 59:2,4,24 207:23 220:7 10:13 11:24
14:16 15:19 241:22 242:25 62:18 66:10,14 220:12 224:12 12:8,10,11,13
16:19 17:12,20 244:8 245:11 66:18 67:1,4,9 224:14,19,23 12:17,18,25,25
17:22 18:21 245:12 67:17 68:2,9 224:24 226:18 13:1,8,23 14:9
25:5 27:25 righthand (1) 68:13 69:1 227:14,18,21 14:11,25 15:16
28:7,17 29:19 18:19 70:17,25 71:3 227:22 228:7 15:18 16:16,17
34:9 41:10 rights (1) 72:6 71:8,14,16,18 234:3,7,11,12 16:22,22 17:4
47:4 48:2 50:8 rigmarole (1) 71:22,25 72:4 235:13 236:10 17:5,18 18:3
50:10 53:1,20 186:23 72:9,12,16,20 236:12,16,19 18:17,18,18,23
54:14,24 57:23 ringing (2) 72:21 74:7,11 236:25 237:1,6 19:1,5,6 21:14
61:16 64:7 76:24 129:9 76:25 77:3,7 237:9,12,13,17 22:3,13,21
66:3,19 67:8 rise (1) 68:4 77:13,15 90:9 237:20,21,25 23:1 24:12
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26:3,4,4,9,18 76:9,9,12,21 124:4,8,11 183:8,18,22 229:6,17,17,23

26:21,21,23 76:23 77:2,18 126:1,12,14,14 184:2,13,15,19 229:24,25
27:14,15,20,25 77:18 78:8,23 126:23 127:23 184:19,24 230:1,1,4,5
27:25 28:14,24 78:25 79:5,6 128:3,7,9,9 185:1,4,11,14 231:15 232:1,1
28:25 29:5,6 79:14,22 80:2 129:12 130:16 185:19,21 232:4,13,14,23
29:21,23 30:5 80:7,19,25 130:16,16,25 186:2,15 187:4 232:24 233:16
30:7,10,11,13 81:4 82:7,18 133:3,5,14,18 187:14,16 233:25 234:24
30:16,18,18 82:19,19,20,21 133:23,24 188:4,5,5,10 235:8,10,12,15
31:5,6,11,14 82:21,23,24 134:5,8,11 188:12,14,15 235:24 236:10
31:16,17 32:7 83:1,19 84:2,4 135:8,13,14 188:16,20,21 236:14,17,23
32:18,21 33:6 84:5,5,7,13,19 136:6,10,17 188:25 189:9 237:25 238:11
33:6,16,18,19 84:20,21 85:11 138:12,16,17 189:25 190:15 239:8 243:3,5
33:21,24 34:22 85:14,25,25 138:18,23 191:17,18 243:8 245:9,10
35:1,1,3,9,16 86:7,14,21 139:4,16 140:4 192:2,13,18,20 245:12
36:15,16 37:5 87:25 89:6,8 140:18 141:1 193:5,9,10 sacrifice (3)
37:12,14 38:8 90:8,13 92:7 141:13,20 194:13,17,17 137:22,23
38:15,17,20 92:17,18 93:19 142:3,13,23 194:21,25 138:21
39:6,7,9,10,13 94:22 95:9 145:14,20 195:18,22,24 sacrifices (6)
39:13,14,20 96:1,10 97:6,6 146:4,4,5,25 196:13,20,21 136:19,20,21
40:2,3,4,7,8,14 98:24 99:4,4,5 147:6,9,10,11 197:12,14,14 137:6,14,21
40:25 41:3,7 99:6,17 100:3 147:14 148:11 197:21 198:22 salary (8)
41:17,21,25,25 100:11,13,15 148:17,22,24 200:2 201:12 129:19,21,23
42:2,5,5,6,19 100:22,22,24 148:24 149:7,9 201:16,19,22 130:20 162:9
43:6,7,8,9,14 101:2,6,11,18 152:11 154:3 201:24 202:4 172:20 214:21
43:21 44:1,10 102:4,5,6,10 155:2,19 202:10,11,15 228:2
44:10,17,21 102:14,23,25 156:18,19 202:22 203:17 save (3) 30:20
45:7,11,12,13 103:18,18 157:17,21 204:7,9,12,15 130:10,11
45:14,21,25 104:7,13,20 158:3 159:9,12 205:12,14 saved (4) 95:23
46:5,19,23,24 105:22 106:8 159:13,14,16 206:17 207:3,5 103:25 130:6,9
47:1,4,18,19 106:10 107:7 160:10,15,17 207:6,8,8,13 saving (1) 29:8
47:20,21,22,24 107:15 108:8,9 164:16,18,20 207:21,22 saw (7) 108:19
47:25 48:1,5,8 108:16,25,25 164:23,25 208:3,8 210:11 117:16 119:16
48:24,25 49:8 109:9 110:13 165:19 166:3,5 210:11 211:2 120:10,16
49:14,22 50:1 110:17,20,21 166:6 167:12 211:16,23,25 145:2 185:15
50:6,7 51:6,8,9 110:23 111:5 167:15,17,19 212:8,11,20,22 saying (79)
51:15 52:25 112:3,4,5,5,6,8 168:9,10,11,19 212:24 213:9 10:14 11:4
53:15,16 54:11 112:8,21,22 168:19,21 214:3,9,16,21 17:11,19 24:3
54:12,15,22 113:11,13,15 169:21 170:2,3 215:3,16,17 24:8 25:5,24
55:2 56:10,14 113:15,17 170:4,5,9,14 216:1,6,7,13 27:23 31:10,13
58:1,4,17 114:19 115:1,3 172:15,17,18 217:4,7,25 32:9 34:23
59:15 60:5 115:7,15,21,23 174:6,9,11,19 218:1,6,8,8,9 55:24 56:3
61:10 62:16 116:6,9,11,20 175:9,25 176:7 219:10,12,19 64:6 67:17
63:3,6,10 117:4,9,12,22 176:9,12,13,15 219:19,21,22 74:21 81:8
65:16,21 66:7 117:23 118:5 176:16 177:3,9 220:7,9,23,25 85:6 87:16
67:1,8,15,16 118:10 119:6 177:10,13,19 221:1,2,12,13 88:17,21 90:8
67:17,21,21 119:13 120:2,8 177:22 178:11 221:14,25 99:19 100:20
70:9,9 71:7,8 120:10,22 178:22 179:5,6 222:3,4,5 101:17 102:22
71:10,11,17 121:4,10,14 179:16,19 224:11,19 102:23 103:2
72:7,8,12,13 122:17,25 180:10,17,18 226:7,8,17,24 103:21 107:11
72:15 73:5 123:5,23,25 181:6,8 182:9 227:6 228:4 107:14,15
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118:23 120:1,3 scriptures (1) 87:17 146:10 98:25 198:22

120:4,5 129:23 115:25 sell (1) 188:21 share (15) 18:11 showing (4)
132:22 134:13 season (1) 69:17 selves (1) 231:18 99:2,25 121:1 109:3 113:12
134:19 135:5 second (3) 25:1 send (4) 33:10 122:1 146:13 140:4 163:10
135:19 139:10 98:18 155:23 94:2,11 95:6 180:6,20 198:3 shown (3) 105:2
139:24,25 seconds (1) sending (1) 198:8,9 199:6 108:22 113:20
141:5 144:23 123:16 93:25 199:16,19 showplace (1)
157:7 163:18 secretary (2) sense (7) 71:13 242:8 216:24
165:4 167:15 218:10,12 83:11 109:24 shared (11) shows (3)
177:16 181:21 secular (1) 191:10 192:16 28:25 30:18 139:14 191:9
184:3 185:3,12 106:5 193:25 195:19 110:1 119:18 232:1
185:17,20,23 security (15) sent (5) 107:3,4 122:8 144:19 sic (2) 106:14
186:3,6,22 189:17 210:7 107:5,6,7 145:1 180:19 194:11
190:13 194:10 210:11,13,18 separate (10) 199:13,15 sick (12) 76:23
202:3 211:15 211:4 212:1,4 47:24 49:9 240:16 77:21 79:8
211:21 212:2,4 212:8,10,20,24 78:12,19 84:5 sharing (2) 81:5,6 86:11
214:20,22 212:25 213:3,7 84:9 120:2 121:25 190:16 86:18,22 87:20
223:12,23 see (48) 6:15 133:23 153:14 sheet (6) 37:16 216:16,19
226:8 232:16 16:17 17:3 243:5 40:3,9,11 232:5
245:4 38:22 39:14 september (7) 45:13 46:21 side (1) 123:24
says (19) 42:16 41:11 43:13 75:17 175:7 shelter (2) 129:7 sign (8) 75:23
42:19,20,23 44:20 46:25 176:8 177:3 129:15 76:6 123:17
44:3 98:24 50:15 72:2 206:14,15 shoes (3) 234:17 131:9,11 180:2
108:10 115:7 75:4 86:9,22 239:9 234:19,22 180:3 195:5
139:16 145:20 91:14 96:10 series (1) 219:22 shooting (1) signatory (2)
146:3 159:13 100:13 108:6,6 seriously (1) 212:22 76:1 176:23
185:18 190:9 117:6,14 213:6 shopping (1) signature (2)
190:20,24 119:24,25 serve (1) 179:18 132:16 74:15 176:15
240:20 241:16 120:7 154:4 service (16) shot (1) 169:24 signed (10)
241:23 166:7,14,22 16:23,24 90:20 shouldn (3) 74:24 75:1,6
scale (1) 223:22 173:22 174:7 93:6,10,16 150:14 163:11 75:10,21 131:7
scamming (1) 177:12,17 95:8,10 142:15 222:20 194:9 195:5
186:15 195:22 197:2 142:19 168:1,8 show (35) 26:16 197:3,9
scenario (1) 217:2 218:23 168:16 169:3,5 43:25 73:10 significant (3)
86:10 219:4 232:4,12 209:11 74:12 91:21 58:8 148:6,18
scene (3) 14:15 232:13,14,17 services (3) 96:22 99:24,25 simplified (1)
14:18 16:4 232:19,21 16:13,15 65:22 106:15,21 18:18
sch (1) 21:18 240:20,22 set (3) 17:23 116:4 139:9,11 simultaneousl...
school (1) 95:24 241:17,21 143:3 187:10 140:14,16 27:17
schram (8) seeing (4) seven (1) 9:16 141:3 176:6 sincere (1)
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solutions (2) space (1) 243:6 206:7 224:15 173:10 statutes (1)
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212:22 222:20 94:5,7 t (770) 6:23 8:20 64:14,16,18,22 120:18 123:4
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53:23,25 54:3 36:23 45:24 27:4,5,6,6,7,9 73:9,9,13,14 131:10,16
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218:25 60:21 62:7 28:6,11,11,15 74:9,9 75:3,6,7 133:13 134:15
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142:20 144:14 180:25 181:4 228:16 229:18 46:16 90:24 3:3 4:6,17 5:5
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146:20 147:4 183:1,3,7,14 232:14,14,17 152:13 155:7 63:1 78:1
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150:20,24 186:5,6,8,9,17 237:19,22 155:13,16,19 140:24 159:2,3
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154:14,20 189:20,24 242:20 243:1,2 64:23 73:25 teach (2) 115:16
155:9 156:15 191:2,3,10 243:12,12,17 76:18 77:16 149:4
156:21,21,22 192:16 193:1 243:18 244:13 79:9 80:12,18 teaches (1)
156:24 157:2,3 193:25 195:6 244:22 245:9 82:9 96:18 115:17
157:7,16 158:3 196:1,13,15,15 246:4,4 100:3 106:1 team (1) 231:8
158:5,8,10,11 196:17 197:1,2 tabitha (6) 8:8 120:2,5 134:22 tear (1) 231:21
158:13,15,21 197:9 198:8,12 8:13 9:3 63:1 134:23 136:23 technical (1)
159:13,14,17 198:16,17,18 175:10,23 137:13 138:22 82:8
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160:1,15,15,20 199:11,16 158:15 179:8,9 141:17,20 4:8
160:20,22 200:6,7,16,25 179:10 143:20 178:7 technology (2)
161:1,22 163:3 202:1,3,11 tables (1) 178:23 211:11 236:22 18:18 57:8
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163:16,19,22 203:21 204:3,3 11:14 15:19 talks (2) 118:24 124:7,8
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167:5,6,12,13 204:16,19,22 38:23 47:3,5 tangential (1) 1:21
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169:13,21,21 205:6,8,18,23 105:15 111:14 taperecording... 94:24 200:23
169:22,24 206:6,6,9 141:15 144:25 112:8 229:1 230:11
170:11,21 207:18 209:19 150:12 156:25 tapes (2) 94:2,11 tell (82) 5:3 14:2
171:5,5,8,10 211:8,18,20 160:11 171:6 tasks (1) 31:3 14:19 19:23
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172:13,14 213:5,14,15,17 174:2 181:9,10 43:14 126:1,10 62:21 65:12
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174:1,14,17,20 216:16,20,24 213:4 164:13,17,23 80:24 93:13
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214:6,8,10 93:19 106:18 59:15 60:3,9 199:16 156:13 158:17
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tenuous (1) 94:16 98:2 151:4 157:10 54:19 172:25 28:4 63:6,7
110:17 103:6 105:25 158:20 163:3,4 ti (1) 193:8 242:17
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149:19 150:11 181:14 228:25 tuesday (3) 1:14 74:7 78:15,16 151:6 157:12
150:14,20 230:9,14 233:6 4:2 18:15 78:17 80:4 157:14 168:11
151:12 154:11 treat (3) 221:21 turn (2) 111:23 83:10 99:19 173:20 207:4
154:14 181:20 221:23,24 115:18 105:6 109:8 209:15 234:20
197:7 238:22 treated (1) turned (3) 9:1 110:10,19,25
238:23 240:17 171:25 198:11,15 111:3,11 V
242:9,10 trial (3) 147:6,9 tv (15) 20:6,10 123:15 139:7 v (3) 1:12,18
tomorrow (1) 147:10 20:12,17,17 139:10 145:20 4:11
170:12 tried (2) 105:20 95:14 200:23 146:20 147:13 vacation (8)
top (5) 220:18 158:7 200:23 212:16 148:4 153:3,13 170:23 171:4
232:22 233:9 trip (2) 21:21 228:13 230:7,8 154:2 155:4 171:19 172:9
233:10,11 160:10 230:10,12 156:11 181:10 172:24 173:20
total (8) 56:9 trips (3) 21:22 234:25 191:14 192:13 173:21,22
169:23 192:7 22:1 174:13 twice (1) 170:2 192:13 202:3 vacations (2)
197:14,18 troubles (1) two (31) 9:20,20 210:12 213:16 171:7 173:10
219:23 224:25 17:16 25:23 26:6 213:18,20,21 value (1) 225:8
235:20 troy (1) 234:13 29:5 51:16 215:3 223:17 values (1) 38:1
totally (4) 78:18 true (13) 48:5 74:12 120:5 235:19 240:10 vautton (1)
135:11 151:8 55:18,24 105:8 123:3 125:7,11 understandin... 228:10
158:4 109:9 126:12 125:12 150:10 35:10 56:9 vehicle (2)
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156:18,20 volunteering (5) 201:10 210:7 181:11 183:9 win (9) 105:3,11
vehicles (1) 12:16 22:4 224:17 225:19 184:3,19 105:13 106:17
207:25 29:1 172:20 230:4 235:6 196:25 202:16 106:18 108:23
venture (1) 215:7 240:11 209:12 214:4,7 109:12 110:4
63:11 volunteers (10) wanted (18) 221:21 225:20 115:13
venue (1) 5:21 12:21 13:3,24 56:3 59:17 226:8 227:6 winners (2)
verbal (1) 14:23 30:25 61:1 62:3 97:4 232:24 235:3 62:19 63:12
243:23 36:4 159:4 99:1,2 100:1 236:2 wire (5) 142:21
verified (1) 91:9 213:12,13,21 102:21 121:1 wayne (1) 55:13 142:23,24
verify (1) 120:13 vs (1) 1:6 122:1,4,25 wear (5) 228:15 143:6 144:2
versace (2) vuitton (6) 143:19,22 230:8,10 wisdom (1)
231:23 232:6 228:15 229:16 144:1 150:19 232:15 235:9 202:16
verse (1) 116:3 230:3 232:6,16 224:3 wearing (3) wise (5) 151:5
versus (4) 10:6 233:11 wants (5) 41:16 230:15 231:20 181:8 197:4
69:21 239:13 67:21 100:9 232:21 201:10 202:16
241:24 W 103:7 118:22 week (4) 8:22 wiseman (1)
victory (4) 7:18 w (1) 1:23 war (1) 45:19 125:15 150:10 206:11
9:21 25:5,21 wait (4) 56:13 wardrobe (1) 244:10 wiser (4) 201:15
video (5) 2:3 4:8 123:17 138:24 229:3 weekly (2) 15:12 201:23,24,25
104:24 105:15 161:23 ware (4) 123:22 16:6 witness (128)
108:22 waive (2) 83:23 124:3,10 weisman (1) 1:23 3:2 4:17
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2:3 4:4,24 77:5 walk (4) 87:5,9 warehouse (1) went (23) 21:10 10:22,25 32:17
77:8,11 122:18 92:12 139:19 230:5 21:22,23 24:17 32:19,22,25
122:22 123:6 walks (1) 120:6 wasn (26) 21:5 62:14 75:2,3,4 33:9,12 42:2
123:10 241:3,7 wallace (2) 55:18,23 58:10 78:10 105:6,9 47:22 48:25
245:14 186:18,19 62:6 63:15 109:7 170:22 49:1,18 50:15
videotaped (2) want (60) 21:21 98:9 100:10 170:23 171:24 51:5,12 53:1,4
1:11 4:5 22:3 29:2,4 103:20 106:14 172:14 173:9 53:9,11,14,16
violated (1) 33:19,21 45:18 108:1,15 222:25 223:20 54:5,8 59:21
147:22 45:19,24 49:4 109:20 141:17 226:2 234:13 59:23 62:17
violating (2) 49:11 50:16,17 156:21 160:20 243:14,15 66:6,17 67:14
112:5,17 53:3 72:2 161:1 169:24 weren (5) 67:19 68:8,11
vips (2) 200:9,10 76:25 81:3 178:3,6 223:24 125:12 148:9 68:25 70:8,10
virginia (1) 93:17 95:3,4 223:25 224:4 156:22 163:22 70:12,14 71:5
19:24 96:11 98:8 233:8 243:1,2 198:17 74:8 77:14
vision (4) 94:20 99:21 100:24 wasting (1) west (3) 19:25 90:7 91:24,25
94:22 112:24 101:10 102:1 111:7 24:8,17 97:18 98:3,16
122:8 104:3 112:10 watch (1) whatsoever (1) 98:20 101:7,11
visit (1) 120:6 112:18 113:2,4 177:16 236:2 101:14 102:16
visits (2) 96:19 117:19,19 way (40) 6:8 wheelchairs (1) 105:10 109:11
152:13 121:4 122:5 18:16 22:1,4,5 87:8 109:18 110:4
voluntarily (2) 130:8 135:18 23:3,4 32:4 wherewithal (1) 113:15,21,24
13:2 222:15 135:18 139:20 33:1 57:24 145:18 114:1,3,6,9,11
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12:11,18,24 147:1 158:5 89:25 133:3,5 53:19,23 64:1 122:16 123:14
13:1,1 18:13 180:20 187:12 138:6,18 140:4 126:19 129:12 131:2
31:14 123:23 197:10,11,21 143:10 154:21 willing (3) 137:1 145:24
123:25 134:1 198:13,14,18 163:18,19 153:18 154:5 146:23 147:16
205:18 200:19,25 168:25 177:19 154:14 152:6 154:7,10
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185:22 191:21 working (4) Y 110:6 120:8 78:2,4 117:17

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193:9,18,21 workings (1) 43:16,18 127:15 130:14 171:24 174:22
194:3,5 197:18 13:7 165:10,12 131:2,10 133:3 174:23 175:19
205:9,13,16,20 works (3) 176:10 133:8,10 134:1 176:21 179:6
205:22,25 123:23 124:2 yea (1) 64:2 134:15 135:10 196:10,10,15
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227:3,6,10,13 94:21,23 11:24 12:4 143:22 144:4 140:17
227:17 233:24 106:19 171:24 13:13 19:24 144:25 147:21 years (24) 20:19
236:9 237:24 174:25 212:19 20:8 22:6 148:12 149:3 25:12 91:7
238:2,7 239:3 worldwide (1) 23:14,20,20,22 150:6,13 92:8 95:23
239:23 243:20 110:3 24:16 25:23 151:23 152:6,7 117:5 122:7
244:17,22 worry (1) 227:8 26:21,23 27:1 154:24 158:24 132:24 136:14
woman (2) worth (1) 27:3,22,22,25 159:10 161:6 137:9 139:18
49:22 111:21 170:14 29:11 30:10 163:18 166:19 163:4 164:21
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112:25 114:3 25:2,14 26:4 32:4 33:9,12 170:10 171:25 175:2 176:17
114:21 160:15 31:6 36:9,9 34:6,17,24 182:10 189:6 182:25 187:6
227:10 98:15 116:6 38:23 39:2 189:19 192:14 198:11 223:12
wonder (1) 60:4 126:25 150:17 40:4,8,12 41:4 193:9,13,15 223:14,16,21
wondering (1) 156:24 157:3 41:20 43:17 194:3,3,15 yep (1) 189:24
215:4 159:17 181:4 46:22 49:14,16 195:7,7 199:13 york (2) 235:17
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107:21 121:8,8 231:5 242:18 53:9,9 54:22 201:8 203:8,20 young (2) 124:8
138:20,21 write (9) 138:17 54:25 57:4,15 205:9,13 124:9
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210:8 222:1 140:24 141:1 208:9 209:8 Z
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99:17 150:13 187:2 73:4,21,21 214:21 215:25
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99:16 187:3 192:23 76:19 77:3 218:13 221:6
words (1) written (5) 223:7,24 40:22 42:14
78:6,6 79:12 44:5,6,18
224:10 103:1 146:19 80:9 81:4 224:13 225:15
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82:14 83:19 122:7 130:10
14:15,18 15:13 193:23 84:1,1 87:7 227:10 228:23
15:21 16:1,5 wrong (7) 29:22 230:7,11,22 139:15 140:11
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20:5 29:2 31:3 51:16 105:17 90:7,23 91:9 232:14,25
31:5,6,11,14 109:6,20 233:14,24 148:5 167:20
92:16 93:4,11 168:9,10,18
32:3 33:17 115:14 116:9 94:10 98:3,20 234:15 238:7
34:19 35:4,7 wrote (8) 72:22 240:19 244:4 170:14 172:7
99:21,23 179:14,22
37:1 91:16 73:8 74:17,24 100:19 101:1 245:12
123:25 132:14 118:3 175:7 year (35) 10:9 180:15 181:6
101:14 104:13 184:8 187:17
168:22 175:23 187:17 199:17 104:15 105:16 10:10 19:23
182:11 214:12 20:5,10,19,22 188:19 189:2
106:12 107:7 190:2,18
231:20 X 20:22 21:3
107:20 108:25 191:10 193:23
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207:12,16 64:24 65:9,16 200k (1) 225:8 250 (16) 1:23 1:19 4:10
219:23 220:20 124:17 132:3 2010 (3) 96:21 187:17 188:19 48324 (1) 246:18
224:15,25 134:23 233:5 120:23 121:12 189:2 190:2,18 48382 (1) 2:5
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06 (2) 57:22 150 (1) 225:8 132:23 164:22 241:13,23 44:5,6,18
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08 (3) 127:13,14 17 (2) 95:23 124:16 128:4 28 (2) 129:21 192:4 194:3,23
132:3 117:17 132:23 139:14 130:10 197:21 198:6
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127:13,14 18 (2) 9:1 228:6 167:19 170:14 235:20 233:18
132:3 18th (3) 64:21 175:7 176:10 29 (3) 123:9,11 50 (9) 9:11,11
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1 18yearold (1) 178:21 187:16 29th (1) 228:9 135:25 219:23
1 (5) 111:20 65:19 189:14 193:24 224:25 225:1
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195:23,23 1994 (1) 60:21 233:1 3 (1) 72:22 500 (4) 188:9
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180:15 181:6 1st (6) 189:14,15 45:5 72:22 241:4,6 245:5 500k (2) 192:7
184:8 220:20 193:25 194:12 78:5 104:24 245:11 207:4
246:9 220:16 235:20 199:22 202:24 3133 (2) 2:4 5209 (1) 27:20
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130:6 2 206:2 231:22 31st (1) 220:16 550 (1) 203:25
1099 (4) 169:12 2 (19) 75:17 234:13 239:8 32 (2) 241:6,8 5579 (1) 246:16
169:16 170:3,8 122:7 123:9,11 241:14,23 3349938 (1) 1:19 560 (1) 178:22
1099s (3) 170:11 142:17 161:25 2015 (5) 1:14 4:2 36 (2) 245:15,18 57 (2) 122:19,21
171:7 173:7 167:20 168:9 4:7 246:9,20 3602145 (2) 2:5 58 (4) 122:21,23
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177:3 192:4 194:1,3 192:25 194:12 382 (1) 72:23
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234:1 207:13 206:4 206:8 220:11 203:7,16 228:9
12 (15) 45:10 2000 (5) 8:4 220 (1) 3:9 228:6 241:4,6 600 (2) 148:5
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