SOLILOQUY

Also by Kenneth Goldsmith 73 Poems (with Joan La Barbara; Permanent Press, 1993) No. 111 2.7.93-10.20.96 (The Figures, 1997) 6799 (zingmagazine, 2000) Fidget (Coach House Books, 2000)

SOLILOQUY
K e n n et h G o l d s m i t h

G r a na ry B o o k s N ew Yor k C i t y 2 0 0 1

 2001 Kenneth Goldsmith & Granary Books, Inc. All rights reserved. No portion of this book may be reproduced without express written permission of the author or publisher. Printed and bound in the United States of America on acid free paper. Portions of Soliloquy have appeared in Yang and The Gig. Soliloquy was first published in a limited edition by Editions Bravin Post Lee in 1997. An online version of Soliloquy appears on Goldsmiths author page at the Electronic Poetry Center: epc.buffalo.edu/authors/goldsmith Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data

For c.a.d.

Granary Books, Inc. 307 Seventh Ave. Suite 1401 New York, NY 10001 USA www.granarybooks.com Distributed to the trade by D.A.P./Distributed Art Publishers 155 Avenue of the Americas, Second Floor New York, NY 10013-1507 Orders: (800) 338-book Tel.: (212) 627-1999 Fax: (212) 627-9484 Also available from Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, CA 94710 Orders: (800) 869-7553 Tel.: (510) 524-1668 Fax: (510) 524-0582

Scheue Dich ja nicht davor, Unsinn zu reden! Nur mut Duf auf Deinen Unsinn lauschen. [Dont for heavens sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense.] Ludwig Wittgenstein

reporter: Why dont you write the way you talk? gertrude stein: Why dont you read the way I write?

Act 1
Good morning, how ya doin? Yep. Wait a second, I have my ticket. OK. There you go. Thanks. See you soon. Oh oh oh, I thought you said have a good weekend. Oh, OK. Have a good week. See you later. How you doin? Alright, alright. Two, please. You dont want to save that for four or is it OK? Do you have any newspapers lying around? Ill just have a coffee to start. Thanks. OK, babe. OK. How ya doin? Uh huh. Regular. Ill take regular this time. Did you go all the way back to the gallery? Youre sweating. Thats good... its good for you. Oh, thanks. Yeah, of course. Everybody knows that guy. Hes sort of... sort of famous. I saw a bunch of these actually on the racks. At a coffee shop. Theyre out and in the world, which is pretty neat. Thats cool and I like that. Very Cool. Weve gotta get a poster. I dont know, I dont know. I was told by people there was a poster there. Yeah, I know. Thats why you cant take publicity too seriously. Yeah, maybe other people do... they love publicity. So, have you been sleeping? No, dont worry... your life will change. Be assured, your life will change. Sure. Sure. So Im told. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh John, do you know what you want? I do. Id like the uh, pancakes, uh short sounds good. A little more coffee and some water. Has Karin been out of the house? Thats right you guys had an opening. Well, I heard it last Sunday. Its really nice that all the artists came over. Yeah. I thought that was really cool. I mean, we all came over at the same time. I thought that was very hip. Good move. That means you only have to tell the stories once. Bitter? You want some milk? How was your opening? This is the paintings. And what is the artists name? And where is she from? Regular. Thanks. Worse than me? Isro. Sure. Did you see that article on Mason Reese in the paper? Wasnt that depressing?

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Ohhh. Yeah, I mean its also like the, I mean, its also like the Danny Partridge, whats his name? The Danny Partridge story? Yeah, but it was really sad. But the best one was that little retarded black kid. No, no. The one from, you know, the one from... he was adopted into that family... the white... hes really short and he went off to rob dry cleaners. Right, OK, right. What was the name of that show? Anyways... Yeah, I mean, it was on in the early 80s and I wasnt watching T.V. then. Yeah, Willis. Right. Right. And I cant remember the name, either onstage or off of the short guy. Gary Coleman and the girl was Kitten? But she robbed a store. At any rate... Eddie Van Halen? Remember Valerie Bertinelli like when she was like on T.V. when we were kids and when she first came on T.V. I had a real crush on her? Something like that. Yeah, she was very adorable. You know, I think the latest incarnation is Winona Ryder. Oh well. Phoebe Cates had plenty of sexuality. Yeah. Yeah. Its the best scene of any movie, I think. And I love Drew Barrymore. I think shes... no she was not in that. She was not in that... Naw. No. I dont know that. Thanks. Who? Oh no. Obviously they censored that. Was she wearing a bra? Oh, I see. OK. So anyway, we were gonna yak about some art stuff. Um, Can I get a water? Thanks, its alright. Well, first off, um, I finished my book that Ive been working on for 3 years and Im really happy that its done. Completely. Well, its been seen as some kind of a weird side project. He wanted to make 3 cases where the writing has, is the activity. So, I mean its, I I cant define that book. Sometimes I think its a big book of poetry, sometimes I think its a reference book, sometimes I think its a conceptual art piece. You know, it never, I havent been able to pin it yet, really and its, and its flowed in and out of different contexts, like, I believe that the book, when Geoff publishes it will be received by the poetry world, by the writing

world that Im involved with. You know, like 73 Poems... it got really juiced in the music world we got major juice. We got really major juice in the literary world also from a great top critic. And, of course the art, the way that thing toured and got, you know, a mountain of press. It seemed to me that it did well on those 3 fronts as well. So I think that what Im saying it that I cant, you know, I I cant, like, deny any aspect of my production which includes you... Maybe youre right, maybe youre right, but maybe youre right you know but, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, lets see, um, in some ways it wasnt that important to me. In some ways the show was important to you. Was it important to you? Whats important? Like isnt whats important to one what is important? Yeah, well, youve got a good point there. I wish, in my heart, that I could live by my words. You know, what I said to you a minute ago. You know, I get, you know, I certainly, I certainly, major bouts and fits reacting to and against whatever whatever things. Maybe its the art world, maybe it the literary world, you know, I really I really wish I could flow you know you know that I like to talk about. And I think at that time I kind of I really dont like the context of the show. I really dont care cause you know its like being it represents everything, um, I really hate about multi multiculturalism you know black artists showing in a black show. You know, I mean it really reeks of all that stuff that I despise like like _________. And I also kind of felt that it would, to tell you the truth also, it wasnt you know a particularly significant piece that I made I thought, you know, it just seemed like a little drawing you know it didnt I dont know well, it was several things... Well I I kind of feel like when I was like... Yeah, O.K., got it got it got it. Now thats thats a good point. Because, you know, my head also was so into this book for the last while that there you know there was I was its so

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incredibly self-sufficient there was no need to show up in general. You know its been so really really self-sufficient in that thing. It seemed like there was no commercial value so in other words the only the only and I the only work that I wanted to do was to keep A.G. and Geoffs interest up and I did that work. No, no you know I did that work because I wasnt gonna lose this opportunity to get this fucking thing published. You know when I you know you know its the same thing when I want something you know weve always been able to kind of take care of that. The fact is at some level, you know, over the last while I havent really wanted that much... like I have what Ive wanted and I didnt need to get out there and and and do these things, you know. The fact, you know, this stuff snowballing into the Art In America article I mean without the show that we did the Art In America article never would have happened. Right? And it was really great and you know at the time I I I kind of made these things and I made them, you know, from my heart I mean they were real. I wasnt making them for a show, you know, I was just making them. And you know the fact that we that we ended up you know showing them and then all the you know kind of subsequent attention, if not critical anyway commercial attention for this work leading you know leading up to that article you know was really you know was really was really amazing and Im really glad I did that without that you know I mean it was a good thing. Um, you know I dont really know I dont really know you know I sometimes feel like like you know if my work has made this kind of a turn you know and its been a turn not so much against you guys, um, but against kind of the gallery system because I really felt like the last piece at your show, like I said in that talk you know it just was fuckin you know it just just nobody got it you know it just really went over peoples heads and I

was pissed... Im still pissed Im still really pissed at peoples inability in the art world to handle reading and language Im really you know and I could say easily just say fuck it. It just happens that Raphaels a poet and a sensitive guy and got tuned into this. You know but you know? Im still pissed. It didnt sell, it didnt get any any any attention it just, you know, completely got lost and it was a good piece and I still believe that it was a really really excellent piece. You know it did things with language but it was too, um, linguistically and I think intellectually ambitious for the art world. You know? I I know it. They could handle it when it was 3 panels they got it it was enough but when it went to 6 panels or 8 panels it was too much. You know I mean I cant tell you how many people have told me that theyve seen the article but how many people have actually read the article? Its the same its the same situation. You know and its not my interest, you know. My interest is really really seriously involved with language I mean Raphael really hit it. Yeah, so its kind of you know Im Im still pissed about it, really. Im not making really visual work because Im not really interested in those issues and I always thought that the art world was a place that was big enough to accept you know a piece like I showed at your gallery last time and Cheryl was just so funny. She you know when we were coming home we saw these cards Cheryl says make an image you know it get reproduced up and down. I said, yeah, Im an asshole. I should have been making images all these years! Imagine how much play I would have gotten... I make one image and look what hap you know look what happens. You know you know it was all ironical, of course you know um you know I mean I realize that Im going upstream and its not... Yeah, yeah right. Yeah. I know it. I know it. I know it. You know. It is. Image World, Image World. Right, remember that show? In

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a way Im really reacting against that in a way because like I happen to think that thats a misnomer you know in a way language is so abundant you know I mean words... Yeah, yeah Im not interested in that. Yeah but but but look at this. Theres many more words in this than there are pictures in this newspaper. Um, I think well I dont I dont know. And the other thing is like its language. Look at what were doing now, were talking. You know how much language is being slung around this room right now? And whats radio? Radio is nothing but language you know? Yeah but thats a fallacy thats a fallacy. With my work, you never had to do that. But people never understood that, of course and its still, a 600 page book you cannot read this thing cover front to back. But that but that was that was my whole project forever has been to turn that convention on its ear you know it really has been. My work has been unlike any other text art its always been really accessible its always been easy to come and go because I agree with you on that level, I mean, this book man, I had to read this thing through twice start to finish to proofread it... its unreadable! Its you know its the kind of book that you might leave your on the back of your toilet and when youre taking a shit you pick it up, catch something so that youll never find that again because theres so much goddamned language in there. Its not meant to be read linearly... none of my work is. And thats the other part that really pissed me off about the art world because they just saw text and it was dismissed as if it was a 1971 Joseph Kosuth piece. So theyre reading it interpreting it visually. Anyway, Im not gonna really you know Im not theres no way Im gonna you know you know I wanna really change what Im doing and... but what if I dont think the book would make a terrific art show. I dont know. Karin once said, she was so sweet, cause Karins just trying to be so

supportive and I love her for it she says we should just put the book on a pedestal in the middle of the gallery! No no no no no! It is. It is. Naw. Yeah. It was beautiful. It was a really striking installation. It was. Yeah. But but. Yeah. Right. No no. Heres a heres a new project Im working on. OK? Im taking a leap of language. Im recording everything Im saying say for an entire week. I mean it no, Im always taking about the volume of language thats around I mean what what would your language look like if it was if you collected every piece of shit word you that you said for an entire week. Yeah and what would it look like and you know what form would it you know it say you just printed it out and put it in a big stack and its a visual representation of all the crap that you speak all week. That see there its a visual representation of language. It may not be exciting but its a great concept its you know it could in other words that could be I could take the language that I record myself speaking all week no one else speaking, just the shit that I spew myself and think now, how could I represent this visually differently? Thats raw material. How could that be represented you know if every word of language was a drop of water and I counted it out and dropped it into a glass would this represent my language for a week? You know how many jellybeans in the jar kind of thing. You know that could be a really you know and I could have different representations of that weeks language in different forms as visual. Well there could be yeah or or just just equivalents: how many words do we speak in a week and what is the meaning of them? You know it could be every drop fill a glass of water for every language I spoke? That kind of thing, I mean I think that that kind of raw material could be flowed into something really really interesting visually in the gallery. It would be you know I mean thats I still have what Im saying is that I still have gallery

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ideas. To put this book in the gallery would be dumb but to do a reading... a 24 hour reading of the book in the gallery would be interesting. I would never subject people to walk into a gallery... its pretentious... and they see a goddamned book in it. Take the book home and read it! You know or put it on your toilet or put it on your shelf. Exactly! And thats the kind of thing that Ive kind of been feeling like this book that Im writing it was really meant for the book. It was a reaction against the gallery you know it was really meant for the page. I could fill up this 6, I could fill up as much disc space as I wanted to without having to worry about the cost of production you know without worrying about how it looks... I worry didnt have to worry about how does the language look? That was a relief for me too and I could just keep going until I had enough. And it wouldnt cost me anything you know and it and it wouldnt get bogged down in the kind of bummed out you know Im you know selling this Im not selling that which you know Ive certainly been privy to over the years. And this you know was amazing liberating. Now I dont know if want to stay there but I kind of what I want to say is think is that Id really just like to keep the door open and Id like to like not Id like to apologize for the hostility because I get carried away in a romanticism and, um, if its certainly never directed, uh I wouldnt say never, but its its not generally directed at you guys but its Im flailing Im Im pissed Im pissed at a lot of stuff you know. I mean you know its just just the way it is, what can I say? Uh, Im Im Im conflicted a lot because God knows Ive loved the limelight and the attention but theres a whole other side of me that that digs the complete solitude and real you know Im completely you know Gemini Im completely split on on these these ways you know, um but you know Id like you know keep the door open because Im Ill never stop mak-

ing art you know never and I dont really uh care to have kind of a mainstream art thing at this point I dont think its interesting Id rather just continue to spin off strange productions you know unconventional production if you guys are up for that you know? Its a book, yeah. Lets not let lets definitely not put on a pedestal. You know A.G. wants to fund a a really nice edition of it as well as a a 15 dollar paperback you know piece of shit edition. It it what it didnt happen for for Dan Weiners stuff? Right. Well, I mean, you know at White Columns I sold a signed manuscript of that book. I think it went for over 100 bucks you know which was pretty pretty you know I mean were talking shit but its also... I I I I printed out all 600 pages of the book and I gave it to the White Columns benefit and they sold it you know. I just printed the damned thing out and I signed it and you know I mean it was you know I... Yeah. Right. Yeah. No no no. You know I mean its just a book man, its usually 15 bucks, I thought that was a good deal you know I mean the other thing is you know Im working now you know Ive got this I mean Ive got this pretty interesting Internet business going. You know I dont mind doing that you know I actually really like it you know its really I dont mind working because its because its its interesting as an artist artists really need time in their studios to sand and paint and sketch and I used to need all the time in the world to fill those letters in but I cant write 10 hours a day the way I used to fill in letters. So Ive got all this time on my hands so I got you know so I started working and this you know nice Internet thing going. You wanna go you got time you wanna run over? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ill show ya. But but. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh youve got to come over. Youve got to come over. Oh OK. Yeah. What do you have? Do you have Windows 95? Oh. So you just have youve got MSN, right? So just get on MSN

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thats fine. They they do a good job. So what happens? Does the modem turn on? Oh, do you have an MSN account? Oh oh well its just just double click on it and then open up your Internet Explorer browser. And then once yeah its the same thing just double click on that and open up your browser and youre on the Internet. OK, Ill show ya. But any rate what Im saying is like you know Ive been working you know I dont mind you know I dont mind not you know selling things. I mean its nice to sell things but oh you know I, uh, you know the fact that Im not doesnt bother me you know I I think a lot of artists that are that are really you know that are much more invested into that system than I am would really flip out if they had to I know do what Im doing. I dont mind. Um you know I mean I think that I think the goddamned Jewish Museum should buy this thing after all the after all the hype. Maybe we should just donate it. Yeah, maybe we should just donate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah maybe not. I dont think anybody else is going to buy to buy the stuff. So lets just lets just... Whoa!... lets just um... Well I mean if they want it that bad what what there must be some money to buy it but they dont want it that bad or...? They dont collect contemporary? No. Yeah. Um. Yeah, and I just, you know, yeah I mean this was her big this was her big coup this you know this Jewish Museum thing you know this was her this was her this was her big you know uh... whatever, ah, whatever I mean whatever. Im really Im actually end up being really feeling kind of happy about, um, Im uh, you know all this stuff I I like all this stuff um... lets see, this should be plenty, uh. Um, well, I actually have a great meeting, um, Im having lunch with, uh, one of the most powerful literary critics you know in the in academia in the country. Its her, Marjorie Perloff and, uh, Im meeting her actually at the MOMA Members Dining Room for lunch today.

And shes deeply powerful and Im going to get her, I hope, to write a blurb for the back of my book and promote it. It should Im very you know Im really excited about having lunch with her. Shes in from Stanford so thats what Im doing today. And tonight Im going to a party for John Newman. Hes a nice guy actually, hes a really nice guy. He really is, yeah. Yeah, he shows at, uh, really formal sculpture. Yeah, something like that. I mean, Its very formal. Its very formal work. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And hes, I mean, hes turns out to be a really nice guy, um, and hes having a a party tonight and then after that da web, which is a big art Internet place is having a party after that. Yeah. Yeah. No no no because theyre having theyre at the Video Viewpoints at the MOMA talking about Cyberspace so afterwards this theyre having this huge party at, uh, 23rd street. Um, and, uh, you know. Thanks. Um so anyway, its like this parties galore tonight, uh, today Ive got lots of just meetings and shit with people. But anyway, so lets just like keep the door open, you know, I mean, you know... I mean, I really wish that would happen. That would that would I mean, Id do it Id do it in a heartbeat because, you know, I could... what ever happened with that? Very 50s. Oh right right right. Yeah. Yeah. Well that, you know, and and it you can know that youre jumping and not jump you know and not and not right and I know you know what youre doing and not... well, I mean its something like that its something like that worked out it would be, it would be really cool. Im going to my studio, um, you know, something like that would be really, you know, I would I would definitely be up for it you know I dont mind, but you know what as art... as art Im not going to be be doing that stuff, I mean I just cant, Im just so fucking fried on that shit I If I ever had if I had to color in another letter Id go out and kill someone. Yeah. Yeah, I dont

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know. Naw, naw, naw. All right, listen, this is all right and I apologize and I think your point is really well taken about about if you say youre gonna do it you got to do it. Im with you on that and and well just kind of keep things keep things open. OK, babe. Ill Ill drop by a manuscript. And listen, the book will be out this summer. If people wanna know, you know, Geoffs book will be out this summer, fall very latest. I dont know, uh, youre gonna be... yeah, in June or something, yeah, yeah, well work on it. See you, John. Yeah. Yeah. Is he a nice guy? Yeah. Um, all right. Lets see. Lets see. So, what are you doing today? Is she making good work? Whats your next show after this? Whats that? Huh. Huh. Huh. Huh. Uh, no but thats, uh, youre looking for art that has children in it? Babies. Do you think summer or fall would be a better time to spring a book? Thats a good idea. Thats a good idea. Are you sure you dont wanna see the Internet for a little while? Seriously, I mean, itll take itll take, uh... I have I have bad news for you though: the only real real porn place that Ive found are gay. Yeah. What does that mean? What does that mean? This? Did they catch the guy? So, anyway, so in terms of porn the I pulled down some pictures but its mostly its mostly this guy that Ive been working for surfs the Internet and has come up with all these... Hey, how do you like that? How do you like that? Fuckin A! You should translate that into sales, right? I love it, yeah. How do you like your Microsoft Windows little Brian Eno thing? Oh you dont use the Brian Eno? So, this is not from your brother, right? Anyway, let me just finish about the porn. Because the first time anybody ever sees the Internet the first thing they say to me is wheres the porn? And I have and I would say, oh, um I dont know. So I did this major porn search for het porn and all it is like these terribly like cheesy sites where you have to pay. Theres like

nothing out there, very very little. But the guy that I work for, Douglas... I was saying this to him... hes like hes gay hes like well I know all the gay sites so I was, like, OK, well at least give me the gay sites you know, theyre not theyre not real interesting in in so terms of porn I dont have uh much to show you. I guess its out there if you want to pay you can get really raunch stuff. OK, I pay 25 dollars a month and my service is unlimited. I have a different I have a different server. So here. If I just open this up all it is is a local phone call and I pay 25 dollars a month and thats it. Right? And thats all. MSN is probably gonna end up charging you a little bit more. Theyll probably charge you hourly. Ah, come on now. Well, this Broadway net that I have as a server is right across the street and theyre usually really good. Sometimes theyre not picking up but... here we go. Theyre really good. Its a really cheap modem. Its a 139 dollar modem. Its the modem. Its a piece of shit but, it works, you know, it works. OK, so OK. This is the same thing you did. You log on, right? And you you double click on your Microsoft on your Inter Internet Explorer icon which looks like this. I have Internet Explorer. Microsoft Internet Explorer. Where is it? Internet Explorer. Here it is. OK? So what you do is you just double click on it. Now Im gonna Im gonna use an identical program. Its called just Netscape but you have Internet Explorer and once you the thing is open, just double click on it, right? And so you Ill use the identical thing here. This is my this is the one I I like to use better than the Internet Explorer called Netscape and you can use Netscape too. OK. And then so now, you know, you can do things like Netsearch... search for something just click on here. And if you want to just just get going... actually I can probably open Explorer to show you just to show you, uh... OK same thing, this is what it looks like, right? OK

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so so we go um... here they have open search open... search OK? This is or Internet searches and they say please use new location so you go OK? Well go to a new location. OK. Art net web yeah well their URL is, I know it, you just go http www art art net dot web. OK or if you wanted to if you wanted to find you know that the its world wide web, thats the address, or if you wanted to find it, you could to you know Lycos you could go art net web. And here it is. Here it is. Here I just found an art net web OK? So, you see what Im saying? Theres theres millions of... OK so thats how you find it Im just telling you how you find it. Do you understand that? You get it? You just just go to your search... go to Internet search and in any of them just enter what word you want and then hit search and it does it for you. And you go OK, here it is. OK. Im just trying to connect. Stop connection because it a... . Theres all this stuff art net. Theres art net web, see? Its coming in. Weve just got to wait for the images to come in. Its slow. Its gonna get better but youve got to wait. Um, if we did the same thing in Nestscape, I think Netscapes better. You go www art net web com. The images just came in. See now this is waiting for it to come in now which is two different browsers but were were either way were waiting. See? Oh, this is interesting... weve got one here and weve got a different one here, huh, I guess it keeps changing. You know, well just stick on... oh look its shifting again. Thats pretty cool, thats nice. See this isnt this isnt doing it. See, Netscapes better, it does shit like this. You should probably get yourself a... OK, see? So what do you want to look at? OK. Index: high or low? Lets see, well go high. I guess we click on week just like that now its... lets scroll down... the Guggenheim Museum... yeah, where is that? Did you see Richards show. So, I mean there was just a review that hangs out thats kind of nice. I mean so

Richard review of Richards stuff but its not a review. Opening this week. Art galleries, so lets go to galleries. Now this is pretty good. Yeah, formerly John. See this is pretty good. See a little description. I dont know, somebody who wrote there. Monique Prieto. Maybe theres something about her. Look at that! And thats it, but thats nice. Thats a nice painting. It shows you the thing. Where. Huh. Watch this. Watch this, man. Save this image as and I can grab image man and throw it onto my desktop, right? I just grabbed it. Now I can do something like I can open up Photoshop and you can do this. This is really cool. I have to open another program. And Ive got it on my desktop. Here it is. Any image on the web is grabable I got this fucker now. Yeah, so I can do anything I want with it I can I can you know I can go like that and I can take take you know this shape and I can... with one color. You know you know I can go I can put some text on it if I want. Yeah, you know just just the same kind of thing some kind of shit you do but my point is is that any image on the web is grabable, OK? Nothing is you know. See this is really nice, man. They did a really good job here I think. Lets find out what map is. Oh look at this! This is really cool. This is really good. Do they actually have you guys on here Mercer? You go OK, well thats Mercer. Isnt that nice? They give you a whole fucking map. Isnt that great? Isnt that really cool? Lets go back. Lets go back and see what buzz is. Buzz for Monique Prieto. Oh, man and you can you can you can write your own review. Yeah. Prieto. PR-I-E-T-O. Your name. Uh, John Gams. Good. OK, give me a fucking cool press release. Go go go. Just say something about her paintings. Just just give me, uh, just say something... I havent seen the show. Uh huh. I dont know, I havent seen the show. Intriguing. Prietos work is intriguing in a way that catches you totally by surprise. Just for I had to

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be an abstract painting I was shocked to walk into this grand gallery space and see something totally new. Not, not new in the sense of new new but something more subtle, subtle, perhaps a recombination of the once familiar. Let let let give me give me one more real real hard line give me a spin line on her stuff. See this show and reevaluate your long standing ideas about ancient medium. OK, and now its gonna close and and well well see if it shows up. Great. OK and now well go back and lets see if its shown up. Go back here go buzz and reload. Oh man, how come it hasnt shown up? Yeah, but it should happen automatically its a CGI script. Anyway, um, anyway I think they they real really seem to do a good job here. Lets see about Cheryls. Lets see if they got Cheryls. Fun, isnt it? Thats pretty pretty neet. Lets see what they say about Cheryls. Theyve really done a lot of work here. Installation projects lets see the buzz. Best artist in the world. Thats my sister-in-law! Colleen is married to Colleen is married to Cheryls brother in Chicago. That kills me, man. That kills me! This is good, man! This is really good! What if if... Oh, Im in this show this Carter Kustera... hes so dumb. Pretty interesting, huh? Theres another great site The Thing. This is this is kind of fun because theyre theyre, uh... you can get a picture directly this picture that snaps a photograph of of The uh Thing right now. When ever you call it in it snaps a picture of the office up there. That nice, huh? A picture of the Empire State Building and, uh, its always different. Its always growing and changing and every time if you snapped another picture if we did another picture it would it would probably move to the right but thats, you know, a live picture. Its really beautiful, isnt it? Im gonna save this image as Im gonna say empire state gif. Kinda cool, huh? And then here they have sort of art stuff. I dont know if you want to look at any of these artists.

This one is pretty nice. Mariko Mori? This one? Yeah. I dont... Oh, look its downloading a sound its downloading a sound file. You want to see any of these other artists? OK. OK, well do that. Well do that. John, sell my work! Wah! Ill uh. Heres the manuscript. Actually actually its. Well let me let me print it out let me print you out a fresh one here its all here. Well I, no, not really but look at that, its pretty amazing isnt it? Its 600 pages. Oh, because you dont have Quark and Ill just Ill bring it down. Tell Karen hi. Tell her about our conversation. Ill see you later. Actually yeah Im gonna. Mens room. Yeah, there are some cute guys in there. See you later. See you later, all right? Yes I am. I think shes adorable! What, um... Hows the baby? Hows Max? You like him, huh? Yeah, is he cute? Oh I know, Scott told you. You like that? Yeah, but I mean, you know, you think Scott should be teaching him the rules of the stock market or do you think he should be teaching him about great literature? About literature but neither do I. Yeah, so it you know its cute that he can recite the stock market but I tell ya Id never Id never teach that stuff to my kid. What did they say? Uh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Are the kids gonna be there? Is Margie bringing the baby? Oh its for Margie too. All right. All right. I thought you didnt like kids. Youre happy to be a great grandfather? Unfortunately youre gonna be living... Hey gramps... can you hold a sec? Ill see you then. Bye. Love ya. Hello? Yes. Hey, hey how ya doin? Good, whats up? Oh right, right. OK, um, I will be here after 3. Um, so if you want to just stop by definitely and pick it all up. OK. Bye. Uncle Geoff. Hey down and dirty master! Great. Great. Whats up? Too much time, huh? Is it taking you a lot of time? OK, so well think about the fall then. Are you having trouble with it, buddy? OK. I dont I really want you to enjoy it. Im really Im into totally not into

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that. Geoff, I want you to feel comfortable with it. Its not about a major... Nobody called me. Thats what I was calling you about. No. Yeah, so what? I mean hes A.G. Hell pay. Things are going up, pal. Is that much more than it was in the old days? Yeah yeah yeah. Ive heard Ive heard that its extremely expensive but but hey, listen, hes gonna foot the bill on that. I mean 6000 bucks is nothing to this guy. O.K., so listen, I really dont want to put a pressure cooker on you. Right. OK. Well, I mean, youre into youre into, um, reading through it and stuff and youre enjoying it. Yeah, no thats perfect. I mean I want you to enjoy this thing. I I certainly dont want this to be a drag for you like like you dread opening this fucking thing. I mean it was a weird review, um, yeah yeah, rough and weird, you know, yeah yeah yeah. yeah yeah no I think, uh, I think shes really happy and, uh, I mean I mean everybody would like a completely glowing review, but youre happy to have a review. Thats rare in this world, uh you know really, its very rare in this art world uh, to have, uh, what Raphael Rubinstein did for to Sean. Thats rare, you know, its usually kissy-kissy stuff. Speaking about kissy-kissy, Im going to see Perloff in about 45 minutes for lunch and that should be fun. I was with Bruce last night. We went to an absinthe party. Um, my friend has a birth a birthday every year and every year he brews absinthe. And it gets better every year. Last this this time it was actually fairly drinkable. Its usually horrible stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah hes using hes got a nineteenth century recipe that he that he uses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know and you drip some sugar into it, you know, the very typical, uh, stuff. Um, I dont know I didnt drink enough of it to really know. Um, but... yeah, yeah, well, um, it was it was you know, actually really interesting interesting thing for us to do and hang out and... My friend Boog, Ive know him since eighth grade.

Uh... Bruce and uh, he is always up for a good party Bruce... hes a hes a partymeister. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah the kid was cute, everythings good, man, everything is everything is like really groovy. Live it up. Yeah, I think shell be interested. What Im gonna do is Im gonna giver her the article the Art a fresh copy of that Art In America and Ill say here read this this is all about the book were doing and if youre interested in blurbing it, you know. Yeah, Ill send one out to her. Yeah OK. Well anyways I Id never heard from those guys uh, he called you he never called me about the pricing. No its fine, Im glad, I mean its just 6000 bucks big deal. Right. Right. Right. To you we were thinking maybe maybe some time in the summer. OK, maybe well just have the party then for for in September. Yeah, oh listen, Im Im oh listen whenever it comes... I want to tell you Im really grateful. I I think its going to be a fun project and I I hope you have a lot of fun looking at it cause its gonna take you a lot of time to look at it. Yeah, its easy. Its light reading. Its real light, you know, you just its not too taxing on the brain. Its its less interesting but its sort of intriguing also. There are a lot of very weird words, you know, one thing just to keep in mind when looking through the damn thing, like you picked up one thing that had it was a fraction of a sentence and it had a a closed paragraph, a close parentheses. That belongs what Im doing is Im just taking sentences and I just keep chopping them up. And so if its got a closed parentheses, its its its intended. Or if sometimes therell be one one quotation mark because I just chopped up the sentence which is interesting because you start to wonder hey wheres the other one. It does, and they keep reappearing, yeah. All right, well, hey listen, as long as youre having fun with it, you know. Yeah right and OK and listen the point is, you know, just, you know, its a big, its a great amount of

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work so just dig in and have fun. Im a little concerned that youre not gonna have fun. OK. Great. All right. Its beautiful Im gonna go up to MOMA, Im actually headed up to MOMA to meet Marjorie. And, uh, were gonna have lunch at the members club up there. She is a member and she says shes gonna take me out for lunch too. So, there you go. Oh, thats a good question, what could I lay on her, jeez. Well, Im... I wish I had one of Bills little books. Did you send her one of Bills little books? Yeah. I I its its at my house, its not at my office. Ah, Ill give her the goddamned Art In America. When are you coming down to New York? Oh, its the uh uh Artists Space thing. Oh my god! Thrills in the big city. Thats good. Thats good. We like we like that. Did you tell A.G. the story? Hows he doing, good? Alright, listen, Ive got to roll up to see Perloffsky and uh, OK, will do and actually Ill give you a call and let you know how it all goes. Call me when youre in the city, will ya? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great and if Im not here, slip it under the door. Um um um um um um um um thats it. See ya. How ya doin? I was in yesterday looking for a pair of size 11 brown penniless. Uh huh. Right, I spoke to you. You were gonna do a search for them. OK 260-4081. Thats right. OK. Thanks. Bye. Away we go. Testing. Testing. Im meeting someone for lunch at the cafe, the members cafe. Uh, is that the only one there is? No no no. So theres another one, right? OK thanks. How ya doin? Im meeting someone at the members cafe? OK. Oh, shes doing it. Whatever needs to be done, shes doing it. Have you been there yet? Great. How do I get there? Uh huh. Thanks a lot. Im supposed to meet someone here for lunch and I dont know if we have a reservation the name is Perloff? OK so. I dont think so. Can we get a table for two? OK sure, sure. Ill Ill sit at the table. Its easy. Im always one step ahead of you. OK, I think were

going to be 3. All right. Thanks. Um, Ill just have a glass of water right now, thanks. Just New York City tap. Thats the good stuff. Marjorie? I wasnt sure if it was you. Nice to meet you. Hi. Oh, Im glad you saw it. Oh, I I brought you a copy. I wasnt sure if you if you got it. 12:30. Should we go look at should we go look at the Monets? What is it? What have you got? Really, really. Can I see that? Yeah. Yeah. Im sitting here. Now, who are we meeting? I brought you this but youve seen it. OK. You want it? Did you read it? Why dont you take it? You read it. Did you see this? This is some work Ive Ive got up at the Jewish Museum right now. Its a funny show and actually its problematic its a problematic show for the same reasons as the multicultural stuff. This time theyve done if for the Jews. No seriously. Weve weve... Dont you think maybe... That was the problem with this show. That was the problem with this show. Was it very Jewish. Its not out yet. Of course these things are waiting and waiting and waiting. Im glad. Im glad. The book that he talks about. Its 600 pages and its being published by The Figures. Yeah. Well, well. Well, this is the same problem, though. Its a show based on Judaism and, uh... in a strange way, you know, like after, listen the Jews, after the World War it was, you know, you know, I think there was so much guilt going on and the Jews were, you know, at the top of the hegemony for for this and then suddenly in the multicultural discourse theres been no Jewish stuff. So then this show comes up and its Too Jewish and its I actually think it falls into the same problems that the multicultural stuff does, this time its being Jewish. Because where has the Jews been in this in this dialogue? Oh wow. Huh, huh. What has he written on Cage? What has he written on... Great. Is he on the Cage list? The name is not familiar. The soft stuff. The soft stuff, you know? Like the Unabomber. He sounds

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like Kaczynski. Oh no. If I never had to leave this city Id be happy. I mean, Im with you on that. Well I do Internet for a living and I work listen I put Douglas on the Internet. Have you seen Douglass site? Yeah. I know. I was there with him doing... You dont have you dont have web access Charles told me. You have graphical web access? Or are you still... or you still on an old text-based thing unix thing? Youre on lynx, right? When you go to read your article on Alt-X, which of course, I thought was amazing that article. Ive printed it out and sent it out to a zillion friends of mine... Well no no no. When you go to look at it what do you see? What do you see? Just tell me visually what you see on your screen. OK, then you do have Netscape. OK. Youre the most most least technophobic person I know. And I dont know you but I know you through your work. They dont they dont teach you this stuff at at school? So youve youve seen Douglas site? Dont you have it at home? Do you have Internet at home? OK, good. Charles tells me Charles tells me that you have nothing but email! Hes so technologically technologically... right. Well, there are wonderful search engines now. Listen to this. Yahoo Yahoos dead. The one the one youve got to go to is called Altavista. What it does is you plug in two words Kenneth plus Goldsmith it searches... Ill have a glass of white wine, thats a great idea. What do we like? Chardonnay. We like Chardonnay. Im not a member. No, Im not a member. No no. I told them I was meet I told them I was meet... before we do that before we do that I want to tell you what we do is I plug in your name Marjorie plus Perloff OK? And what it does is it searches after it searches every. Right. Right. Oh, it doesnt matter it it just sees the string Marjorie plus Perloff... no this is incredible. Thats incredible. You dont have a Macintosh, do you? You do? Charles would lead me... lead me... thats easy Ill tell

you how to get that. Dont you have speakers? Cause you can get any little even on your Powerbook you can get sound. Its built in... they have speakers on there. What Altavista? Oh, you did. w w w dot altavista dot digital dot com. Of course, of course. Dot altavista this is a new language, Marjorie. No one word. Altavista. Theres no spaces in URLs. Dot. Digital. Dot. Com. Dot. Digital. Dot. Com. OK. But I havent told you why its great and let me tell you why its great. OK you you between words if you put Kenneth Goldsmith in it will come in with every Kenneth and every Goldsmith but if you put Kenneth plus Goldsmith itll only hit the items applicable to me. Uh, thats on the net, yeah. Right. Just what you have... Well, its not that specific but if you enter John plus Cage. Nice, really great to meet you, its about time. Im not so young. Im not that young. Im 34. Im 34. How old is Nancy? I know about shes famous. I know about her. 39? I thought she was much younger! Nancy, lets see, Nancy works at the theater. Kerry works at the theater. Nancy works at MOCA. At the Getty but she used to work at the L.A. Contemporary. Of what? The Nancarrow collection of what? Oh really, how amazing. What a minute, shes doing music stuff? Fabulous! No no no. Ive Ive heard of your daughter whos in the art world. I mean in the art world in art circles, shes famous. What did she write on Satie? No kidding. Yeah, yeah. You know, Im looking for a good Satie book... Ive got the two bios and theyre terrible. Very good. How cool. Huh. I think they have they must have 73 Poems. What was the name of the guy at the Getty who used to do the visual poetry collection? Hes a nice guy. He knows you. An older guy. I met him. He was nice. I had dinner with him he was very sweet. He was not such a low... yeah, I had dinner with him one night. Yeah. So Nancy replaced him. Right. Right. OK. Well, Ill tell you well Ill tell you. I have a radio show and

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all I play is Tudor, Cage, Nancarrow, Jackson... this is fabulous. Good Cage stuff. M.C. Richards, wait a minute, M.C. Richards. Shes a potter yes. I know. This is the little this is the little... well Cage thought Cage thought the work of her, but thats the sort of crunchier side thats the crunchier side of Cage. I mean we dont know that, maybe hell be hardcore but... so youve been so youve been to Douglass web site. Ive done that for Douglas. I did that whole. Did you see the picture of two people sleeping? Oh, come now! Really? Im on the phone with Douglas every day. I... And heres the perk... which you have already... but the perk of working for Douglas is that I get every title he produces. I know you do. I know. I dont read novels. I mean I dont like fiction. Right. But that was that was when it worked. That yeah, well listen I think he makes a lot of money on that stuff hes certainly not going to make. You think when David comes we can throw around opinions like this? Like just totally? I mean... this is gossip I love I mean this is what was missing this is what was missing from Joans wonderful book on Cage. Why did she why did she I I know her well enough, why did she turn the tape recorder off? The gossip was what I was interested in. Well Cage Cage tends to get that... we are waiting. Yeah. Were just gossiping. Were just gossiping, thats all. Were too busy gossiping. I dont want to put anything in my mouth. This is great. This is great. The one across the street is nice too, the China Grill. Its all business people. No, this was a good move. But I have this I have a problem with the Cage thing. I feel it gets too religious. The name. Oh, from the Cage trust? Yuk. Not wanting to say anything about Marcel. OK, I wanna I wanna I wanna stay on this for a second because I have a real problem. I think that, like, the coolest thing about Cage was that it was so free and yet and yet the disciple thing and the and the worshipful thing is

really binding. This is not what he was about. Oh, thats so morbid! John said to me... it morbid. Uh, I think hes on the I think hes on the list. I love well what did I tell what did I say in your review? He cruised the Palisades. That was the most that was the greatest thing Id ever read. I love, I mean as Ive told you, I love that and that what what the David Revill... whatever his name is... the guy that did the bio left out. Its horrible. Do you know I heard Mark Swed is doing a bio of Cage. I love Mark Swed. You dont? Oh you we were in Warsaw at the same time by the way. Remember I was in the Art Art. We asked you to come to the Artists Museum in Lodz it was at the same time as the Cage conference in... Right. This is interesting. This is interesting for me to hear. Oh. Well Ill tell you. Right. Neither can I but I know... Good. Good. Great. Let me tell you why I think Swed is alright because in this city, which is so artistically conservative Mark Swed is the only person out there pushing a Cage agenda pushing a radical music agenda. Thats why I say hes terrific. Hes the only person in New York whos promoting New Music. Oh is that right... this is the only reason that Im saying that I like Mark. I dont know him personally but... How can he tell you you dont know. Joans Joans work is good. Her her her own work her own poetry is interesting. Well we all are in some degree. Ullas a dear friend she is shes really obsessed. Yeah. Well, it seems to me like sort of a weird 70s thing? There was like a lot of... Do we know any men that are like this? It gets so it gets old OK OK good. Good. OK OK good. OK OK great. Oh, in some ways! His whole trip was controlling! He was like Ill set the parameters... Its not wrong. No no no its not. No. My wife said my wife said when I met John a few times through Joan La Barbara but I used to get really bummed out at the reverential nonsense that surrounded him and Cheryl once said to

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me... Cheryl Donegan, my wife who is a very well known video artist, whose work youd really adore... shes got a show right now in SoHo. Maybe if youre around... yeah, maybe Ill meet you over there and show you her show. I think you I think youll like Cheryls work. Shes very well known. Do you want to do you want to see that? Well talk well talk about it. Well I saw Bruce last night. Why dont we all get together? Bruce and I went to Bruce and I went to an absinthe party last night. I took Bruce to... you know you know the work that Ive done on all of Bruces covers. I did Ex Why Zee, I did Tizzy Boost, I did Divestiture-A. You know that were dear friends. Bruce is. I well not only I feel it but hes very jealous of Charles. Can I tell you that? I mean, I always... Bruce is really really, I mean hes, Bruce is one of my best friends but he is really jealous of Charles he is... yeah Bruce was at the opening, Bruce came to the dinner, Bruce came to the absinthe party last night... no no no, but well all do that. Let me just quickly, to finish my Cage Cheryl said, you know, you and you and John probably wouldnt have gotten along. Cheryl said this to me about Cage. I mean in a because... oh he did I mean Im thats why I like Bruce. So tell me. Tell. Oy vey iz mir! Health Food! What do you mean youre Viennese? You are born in Vienna? Are you born Jewish? Well, I dont know. Cause I know your last name is Jewish. And you seem very Jewish. Whats your maiden name? So youre Jewish. Youre Jewish. Really? Really? Really? Well you Bruce is doing a big Viennese piece with Sally Silvers. Hes doing hes taking hes deconstructing Lulu. Oh yes he is, yeah... Thats your seat. How ya doin? Actually, theres an article on my work in here. I was going to give it to Marjorie but of course shes already seen it. Its bookmarked there. Starting here and rolling rolling through rolling the next few pieces. Its all stuff about them,

right. So, of course I was going to show Marjorie, but of course shes already read it. Oh, Ill just take that. Were having... yeah, oh Ill have another please. Oh, you know, I dont want to commander that. Sure. I live downtown. I know Cold Spring, Long Island. OK, where is it? Like, whats it near? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Its... OK, yes I do. Im a DJ on WFMU, do you know 91.1? OK, weve just set up a repeater station. Yes, no, you can get it up there youll be able to get WFMU. Its WQX... its more like WQHD or something like that and its like 90.1. Youll if you fish around youll be able to get it were were repeating broadcasting up there now. Yes. Oh yeah, oh great, oh yeah. Well, were right East Orange. What kind of show do I have? Um, its mostly 20th century classical and experimental stuff. Yeah, yes as a matter, yes I do. Were already going on Sorabji. So, how do you two know each other? What aspect of Wittgenstein are you writing about? My book is full, the book that that is written about there, is just full of things Ive stolen from from Wittgenstein. The book, no, you have you will see it. The one thats coming out from The Figures. No, its a its a straight... 15 dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Its called No. 111 2 7 9 3 through 7 2 3 9 5. It will be and Ill get your address and well well getchya one. But I perused Zettel? Zettel? Is that correct? I perused that and I took things that that I took a lot from it this book so there you go. We were, yeah, we were. Finishing gossip, finishing up gossip! Ive forgotten it all! Oh, its about its its sounds and language that Ive collected for 3 years. Right. Right written down. Its like what? Its interpretations by Joan La Barbara of poems that I did. So we did a piece called 73 Poems and... Yeah, yeah, actually Lovely Music put it out commercially so it had had legs. Joan did the composing. Joan did the composing, right. Oh! What do you have? Oh, tell me about that! Hmmm. Hmmm.

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Where are your CDs on what label? OK OK. You know because at FMU. Yeah. Hes hes hes hes great Glen Velez. I have. Yeah, right. Youve seen a picture, I must have sent you a photograph of that, yeah. On the Internet. This is a page from the book. This is this is this is like the chapbooks Ive sent you but its a 600 page uh uh uh gone of to 2,000 syllables instead of 90. I stole this from you! I stole this format from you! Putting this putting the border around the page. Of all your of all your pages that are reproduced in your books, right? And she puts a border around them yes you do yes you do you put you have a a rule around your pages. In Radical Artifice the visual pages yes. Lets see. Im gonna tell you I stole it from you. Look! Im not joking! I stole the format from you! Well I stole this this Ive never... the page the delineation of the... which I think, right, which I think your husband did it. Did. Didnt he lay these things in? See, look, here you are again. Looks at the rules the rules, uh uh uh, this is called... I know you did. Hull? Which was that? Whats her maiden name? Shes Lyn Hull now? Shes gone back to it. No, I find it more... This is interesting, yeah. OK, Im coming... were doing a collaboration. We found the transcripts from the Mike Tyson trial. But you know Charles. What fringes are you on, like, what circles do you move in? Hes hes got one. I sure do. I sure do. Well this is a great looking journal! Did he dish? Did he dish? Got any good gossip for us? Does Jaron Lanier live in New York? The thing is the thing is were on the same Internet server so I can do... on panix. So I can I can do a users command in panix and see jlanier logged in like constantly. No no, of course, of course, and and. I taught myself, yeah. I did it through yes yes its my business. Were working were working on it. Yeah, Im from Long Island. I will have I was gossiping so um I will have the cavatelli please. Pardon? Sure,

sure, um... why dont you give me a green salad, whatever you guys have, just a salad. Is it good? Is it good? The cavatelli? Is it dull? Is it dull? Honestly. Who are we talking about? Eliot, I know Eliot, yeah. Yes. 46. I have to tell you there is third generation Language poetry going on and its really depressing. I mean, Its as sad as the New York School. Its as sad its as sad as Ron Padgett. Hes a nice guy. Its right. Terrible. Terrible. Yeah, yeah. Un un un unfortunately the the Language thing is getting to be like like umpteenth generation Language Poetry. It might be. It might be. It might be. Ill tell you the the Ear the Ear Inn is real dead. Anybody. Yeah. Do you know the Ear Inn? Oh you did? Really, wow! I dont know, the Nuyorican is happening! The Nuyorican is happening! Do we do we need? What can we what can we say about nature then then that isnt that isnt what youre saying? Whats to say... ? Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. All of his his his stories. Joan La Barbara would tell me John would sit in hotel rooms toward the end of his life and get plastered on scotch. You know yes toward the end Joan said toward the end of his life that all yes of course publicly and I said that to Joan I said I thought he I thought he stopped drinking, you know, of course he all of this and and Joan Joan said yes please. Joan said he would... Its OK, unless unless you what does it mean when you say youre not youre not drinking you know... Ill tell you what he didnt like. He didnt like anything that wasnt in line with his ethical thoughts. For example, popular culture. He couldnt handle it. This would never enter into his work. Very rarely. Of course he wouldnt like Brian Eno. Well well I had this Jackson and I were down in Florida with the Sackners. Thanks. Jackson and I would, uh, I know. We were down doing a doing a a sound-poetry festival there. And I was I was arguing for popular cultures become really really

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interesting its become incredibly sophisticated. Everybody in popular culture has read Wittgenstein. Its it is its smart now and Jacksons like no no no popular culture Jackson Mac Low he says he says its terrible people Im like no its really interesting now. Popular Culture watching it on T.V. is quite is quite fascinating. So I go back to my hotel room, I turn on the T.V. and theyre playing old Guy Lombardo runs from the 50s and I was like, right this is popular culture from when Jackson and John were were were butting against popular culture and I thought to myself right it was lousy it was horr you know, it really was and, you know, a lot of... Its very good. Theres been theres been so much terrible art made under that assumption. No no no thank you. Thats rich though, thats good. He aligned himself with McLuhan in the sixties. He loved technology. That was the coolest thing about John. Oh he was a big, oh he was so interested in posterity. No but he, yeah right right. Oh I disagree. I disagree! As a DJ as a DJ Im a DJ no I have a I do right all all experimental and all all 20th century. Its unbelievable and some works better than others. I mean you put on Diary its terrific listening. Indeterminacy is terrific listening, um, Fontana Mix is terrific listening. Oh I agree listen I think a lot of it is real dull to listen to personally. Oh wow, during that period? Are you on the tape? What is your question? No no I love the tape! He said that he would disappear he said in his writings somewhere that a composer after their death disappears for a while but then they reemerge. Thats in your thats in your article. Are you on the Cage list? Uh, do you have email? Ill send you the information on it. Silence at b g a dot... Oh, yeah, Joseph Zitt. Are you on the poetics list? I, you know what Marjorie, can I be honest with you can I be honest? Ive Ive Ive temporarily signed off. Im still working on this. Do you know an interesting composer at

NJIT named Michael Rosenstark? Yeah. Yeah. He does very very interesting experimental music. No at NJIT, yeah. I a CD arrived in my mailbox at the station and it was Michael Rosenstark and it was. I wont Ill email you his address. Very good. Ill be one. Sign me up. My job my job my job. Im Internet. I build web sites. Geography is not important. Of course I could. Of course I dont have a card. A card would be the death of me. Yes I do, of course I would. I would love to build a web site for you. Sorry? kgolds k g o l d s at panix right dot com p a n i x dot com. And uh, yeah. If you need a site for Terra Nova I am I am Ive Ive. Oh, Im writing Ive got CDs Ive got books Ive got all sorts of things. The first book that I sent you was probably No. 105. That was the first, yeah the first one of the first chapbooks. Well, you know, I was trained as a sculptor. And I I... I was trained at RISD. I went to RISD. Do you know RISD. Rhode Island School of Design. I was trained as a sculptor and I started making sculptures of books and I would carve words into them. Exactly. Well, thats a problem. The book art thing I think is a problem. Well Johanna Johannas literary. Because most of its not... Yeah, I saw that in there. I saw that... well because because its not literary its its sort of these unique sort of artworks that dont... Did you see the site that I did for Steve Clay, Granary Books? I did a big Internet site for Steve Clay and Granary Books. OK, I did that. I know. Terrible yeah. Very sad. I know, theyve done several books together and then theyve theyve done it together. Its bad and I dont like it. Theyve been together for so long. Exactly exactly exactly. Theres no no yeah. What do you think of that book. I agree. I agree with you and I think thats a problem with Ruth and Marvins collection. I think a lot of what they have is crap. These are people in Florida, yeah right, they have 500,000 works of art, and theyre all text-based. No no no

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they started with the Russian Avant Garde. They make her look great. They make her look good. Do they? Does Ruth and Marvin? Ruth and Marvin. Does Charles? Well I built I built see I built the Granary Books site and thats about as much as yes, thats the job. Marjorie, why dont we put why dont we put your books why dont we put excerpts or chapters from your books on line? Why dont we do that. Why dont we do that? I mean obviously both of us know Marjorie through her work and have been weve been... Ive never met Marjorie before. Weve corresponded lots Ive written about I wrote about her Cage book and and shes written about my 73 poems book weve corresponded through email and shes got a terrific new piece on Alt-X. Are you familiar with Alt-X? Its a really great site. Wait a minute. Would you stop being would you stop being so humble? AltX is a is one of the most interesting literary sites on the web. Its called Alt-X. You sure did. Which is part of Alt-X. Its under the umbrella of Alt-X. She doesnt know. Ill send you the URL. Its its its. Do you have Netscape? Do you have graphical. What what what size modem do you have? OK and do you have some. What kind of computer do you have? Which one? A II SI. Well, it will be slow on a II SI. You have a Performa. A Power PC. With the Power PCs things really fly. The 28 8 modem is better you need to get one. You need a 28 8 modem and you need a Power PC. Im like the Internet... no Im not Jaron Lanier... but I live I live I live on it no I saw that he doesnt like that. OK Alt-X is where your paper is housed. Its w w w dot alt-x dot com. And you are on that site and its a good literary site. I told I was gonna say that to you. Im a stickler for that stuff. But I got the idea. I got the I got the idea. OK theres something thats happening but you dont know what it is do you Mr. Jones. Marjorie says something is happening Mr. Jones and you dont know

what it is Mr. Jones. I got the I got it. Excuse me for a second. This is a trip. Change tape. Why dont we do that? Well, what you do is you email me texts and I will scan images from your books cause I have every book that youve done. Of course I what do you mean do you do? David tell her. David David too Marjorie. Which is the Wittgenstein book. That I dont have. That I dont have. That I dont have. And this is gone out of print. What does the cover look like, tell me? Never. Ive never. I have it. I have the famous ones. Poetic License, The Futurist Moment. Who is this? Northwestern? Northwestern? Thank god. Did you help him do that? You did. Good for you. Good for you. Bruce is so excited. Well I have the Poetics of Indeterminacy which a blue, which is the blue cover from the paperback. But David, is your book not not gonna work out with California? With Chicago? On Alt-X on Alt-X I read that the Wittgenstein book was out. Oh, thats why I wrote you that email I said Marjorie I didnt know that there was this book. So David, you have a book coming out from the same press. I love his name. Herman Rappaport! What is she? Wittgenstein? Ill like it. Oh, Ill like it! So they did. OK. Well, we love Bill Viola sure. You need to see Cheryls work. I think you need to talk about Cheryls I think you need to talk about Cheryls... Marjorie I will look into it. Cheryl has Cheryl has Cheryl has books. Yeah. This is what Im thinking of. Let me. Let me. Marjorie, why dont we meet up at Cheryls show? She will tell you. Why dont we meet on Wednesday with Bruce. You do. Why dont we meet you. I think you would enjoy to talk about Cheryls work I mean shes one of the most well known young video artists. I think shes important to speak about. Yeah yeah yeah. Shell let you know every whatever you need. Oh, I think its so stupid. Marjorie youd be interested in Cheryl. Cheryl and I are going to Athens for

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two weeks in May to do a uh a uh poetry video collaboration where Ill be reading from my book and Cheryl will be painting and video taping me as I read. No interview, thank you. So, Ill look for your records tomorrow night. I like I met this guy Robi Droli is. I met him I met him at the Cooler the Ben Neill night. Yeah yeah I know him with all the stuff. Yeah yeah Ive met him. Thats great, its a great label. I know they do. As a matter of fact Im sure they. I know we dont have the Riley at the station. Yeah yeah yeah. As a matter of fact, if you send them to me, Ill donate them to the station which theyll get lots of play. Uh, Ill let you know tomorrow night. Ill tell you what... Ill go out to the station, Ill look for them tomorrow night, if theyre not there Ill email you and Ill let you know and youll send them to me care of the station. What time are you when are at at New Jersey? 5 or 6 at night. Yeah. Yeah, please let me know. Ill email you so I can get get get you a this is fun. Shes a trip. Marjories a trip. Sorry? Yeah. It does? Maybe thats the thing that I was saying about being in New York is that you know you know people before you know their work. You dont know the work before you know people. You know you know everything about everything and its its, you know, uh, whats uh... In New York its impossible. I think Ive heard... I think Ive heard the name. Were you are living in New York before or were you living in Jersey? And you know Marjorie from her writings and... ? So thats a nice old picture of the museum, isnt it? Look at the beautiful old buildings on this street. Really, huh? Look at the garden, how different it was. Bits of wood. Far out. Beautiful. Its a beautiful piece, isnt it? Not me. Im happy here. I love it here. Im never leaving. Really, Ill never live anywhere else. No I have a tiny apartment but I love it. I love it. Living here is is extraordinary. So lets go lets go look at Nancys book. Excuse me. We dont

know. Hes a photographer. Hes a photographer. Thank you. I had to tell Marjorie Perloff that. Thank you. I wanted to get that. I wanted to buy that, yeah. This is the one with the Cage in it. Its a great looking book for 30 for 30 yeah. Where? Im glad you pointed this out. I wanted to buy this. How do we how do we? Who is this on the cover? How do we like? What do you think? Sure. Oh, those guys were in in in in in the band which I have the records of... uh, why do I forget the name? Here, lets have some. Here we go. Do you guys have a music section? Like music books or... Yeah, what would it be? Yeah, thats about it? All right. Thanks. Marjorie, design of musical instruments? I dont think so. Michelle, how you doin? Whats going on? I was thinking about you. Well, I saw I did a users on panix and saw mwhite was on was logged in. My god, more of the same. More of the same. Did Monicas catalog ever come out? Whats the story? I heard it was like a book I had dinner with Anton I heard it was like like this. Great. Great. I heard it was huge. What happened to your work? Has it gotten back to you? I dont know. He didnt say anything. Of well, yeah yeah. You did a lot of work on that piece. So, what are you doing here at MOMA? Good. All right. Well, next time I log in can you do talk can you do ytalk or anything? If I do if I do talk mwhite youll come up? Oh, really, but youre usually on on your moos and mushs. Did he. Did he move in romantically or? Great. Really, I dont know. Congratulations. Thats great. Are you in love? Great. Wow. Oh, I didnt know that. I didnt were you seeing him when we were in Caracas? Really, huh. Congratulations, thats great. Whats her name? Whats his name, sorry, whats her name? Good good good. John Simon. Were gonna be at da web for the party are you gonna show up there? Theres a party tonight. You know da web, dont you? Big art site. I know, youre out of the art

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world I know youre out of the art world. Were gonna be there tonight. And were gonna see John and Ill tell him you say hi. Shes doing an edition, an edition on the Internet so. I hope that catalog comes out. Anton says its supposed to be pretty terrific but. Is she traveling the show as long as shes she contacted me about sending her some stuff. Yeah, I dont know I havent spoken to her since Caracas. All right. Yeah, I dont know I havent seen her since Caracas. So, really. I havent heard from her. What do I know? Maybe when things slow down. Yeah, if I hear if I hear from her again. Like I said I dont know where she is. No, Im not taking it personally, absolutely not. I saw her I had an opening I saw her at the opening. Her and Soowon came. Good to see you. Yeah. Good to see you. Take care. You too. Sure this is terrific. Yeah. Are you buying this? I will grab it. Right. Ive got to get this. Hi, Kenneth. Who are you? Hi Margo. You must know you must know my wife Cheryl Donegan. Thats great. Where have you shown her work? Great. Great. Great. Yeah yeah exactly. So, so what else did you show in these programs? Did you show younger EAI artists? EAI is Experimental Arts Intermix. Donegan. Marjories going to come on Wednesday and see Cheryls show. Its great. Its great. Its down at the Basilico Gallery. I know Marjorie. I know her well. Gee, why dont you make a studio a studio visit over to Cheryls? Shed shed enjoy that. Sure. Did you show any of the work of Alix Pearlstein? Shes another good really good. Alix Bag is good too, yeah. Ill have to ask Cheryl. OK, and then and then. In Baltimore. Ill give you her studio number. I know shed love to hear from you and Ill tell her her. Ill tell you she you know. Great. She is she is at at 212-677-8465. Ill tell her Ill tell her we met tonight. Kenneth Goldsmith. Youve gotta youve gotta come see Cheryls show. Is this a small world or what? No I

havent. See you. Bye Margo. Didnt he trash the Cage book in the Voice? Oh, I dont think its important but. Cheryl is in here under. My wife is in here under. Somebody I went to school with. I know everybody in here. No, I dont think we should we should look at that. Im gossip, what? I know its another language... It happens all the time. Its just one one r. Ive got to pay for Nancys book. So listen, maybe Ill come see you tomorrow. Id like to hear the lecture. Oh, Id like to. I mean, its not have to. Oh I do like her, no, I think theyre very good. So. No buts not buts. I think shes great. I dont have any problem with her. So, where are you headed? OK. um, lets see. Ill send you a copy of the 600 page manuscript for Geoff for The Figures. It is great. If you want to do see Cheryls show. Nice to meet you too. Yeah, Im gonna pick these things up. And yeah, and I will find find your discs at the station if theyre there. We have a lot of stuff. Do you have any vinyl? No no no. Any of your own stuff. OK, lets be in touch. Ill call I have your email address Ill Ill let you know whats going on. Good to meet you David. Ill see you. What did you get? OK, Call Cheryl shell appreciate that. Bye bye. Im not a member no. Cher? Hi baby. How ya doin? Good. Yeah, Im just in the subway, Im just coming out of lunch with Marjorie. It was interesting. Um, she wants to come see your show she wants to come see your show. Yeah yeah and um, I ran into a curator who had shown your works in St. Petersburg, Russia. Yeah, and also at the National Gallery of Art in Washington. Uh, I gave I gave you I gave her your number... shes a friend of Marjories. Her name is Margo Herman. She was really nice and she really loves your work so. Yeah, it was really great and uh, we met in the bookstore at MOMA and we started talking... shes gonna call you and she really loves your work and blah blah blah. Yeah yeah. So, how ya doin? Yeah. I had a

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Marjories pretty wild. Shes nice, shes really nice. Um, she talks a lot but I I kind of jousted with her a lot. I threw around lots of opinions. Gee, I think my train may be coming. What are you doing? Are you gonna be there? And do what? OK, here comes, I believe my train is coming Ill let you know in half a second. No, its another E, damn it. Yeah. Great. When does it go up. Really? Whoa. So, youve got to come to da web. I know after after the thing. Oh, I was just extremely opinionated, uh, you know it was fun we had a good time. Yeah, I just I was just myself, I was pretty opinionated, pretty wild. We had a great time. Sure, sure. Ill tell you all about it. Ill tell ya what, what time is it? OK, why dont I why dont I wait for you and then you wanna like go to, uh uh... You wanna go down to John Newmans together? Oh, be back what time. Hurry up. OK, Ill see you at my studio around 4. Bye. Yeah. I like Cage because we were there with other guy who was like this environmentalist Cageian. Yeah, this guy we we we hung together for a half hour and we were really bummed that this guy was coming to dinner cause we were really really dishing and really having a lot of fun and then Im like, Marjorie, can we dish like this when this guy is here and shes like, well, I dont know we may have to keep it a little bit quieter. So any it was it was really fun, um, I Ill tell you more, Im a little buzzed. I had two glasses of wine and a cognac. And she took me out to lunch at MOMA so. The absinthe I didnt have too much of but at any rate what but I do, you know, what I can, you know, she really adores you and adores your work and thinks that youre youre youre due more due more praise so thats cool. Um, and she, lets see your book is coming out from Northwestern? And she said that she voted for that book to happen. You knew that already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Wittgenstein book? Right. Right. Well, at any rate,

it was pretty fruitful and really nice to meet her and you know, so... Not really, we didnt really talk too much about Douglas. Yeah, you know, it wasnt really a dish session on Douglas. She said that she was at Charless last night and that and Charles was showing it was more Internet stuff with Charles and, you know, it was, yeah, I will recall it all Bruce. Is the Internet? After what I told you about his big Loss thing so. He was gooing over Loss. Yeah. Yeah yeah. I cant, you know I mean, Ill. Yeah yeah hes hes he really is fascinated by it. Oh, dont ask Marjorie about that. Dont ask Marjorie about that African American poetry. Yeah, a little bit a little bit, but you had warned me so I was I was cautious. Well shes her politics are I was I was paying attention her politics are rough, you know, it really is its really different. At any rate, I dont know, I mean she talks a lot she gossips a lot I mean what it what it all means I cant quite say, so. Yeah, it was alright, though, it was nice to meet her. I groove with her. I was just a fucking goof, you know. I was just a goof ball on her, you know, yeah so. It was good. It was good. So why dont you guys find out when, you know. Yeah, why well why dont when are you gonna call her? OK, when you guys find out somebody should let me know and cause I would, you know, shes gonna do a big paper at the next MLA on video art and I would really like her to get su, uh, Cheryls stuff in. OK, she did not like her work at all! Ill tell you that. She really thought her her stuff was really bad. Yeah, she just says its really sad when a couple has to be like that, you know, where he has to be supportive of of somebody whose work is just completely awful and you have to sort of pretend you like it. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, well and and and and in telling you Im sure it will never get back to him. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright. So let me know whats up and... Im gonna go to Fordham tomorrow and listen to

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her lecture. Yeah I wanna hear her talk, I love her work, you know, I do like her work. Yeah. Its on Beckett and Wittgenstein. It should be alright. Yeah. Beckett and Wittgenstein. Shes giving the same lecture. Yeah. So somebody let me know. That was fun last night. I had a good time, man. Uh, quickly? Really. That was great. That was great. Alright. Alright. Let me know. See ya. Yeah? Listen, I got good news for you. Marjorie wants to do a MLA paper on video and she wants to talk to you and see your show. So thatd be nice, huh? Yeah, yeah. Shes shes really interested in video whats happening in video now. Its very very good. You wanna get going? So, tell me about your John Simon project. Oh, you want to put on this cream? Alright. I do. Grazie. Grazie. So? Not happening. Can you get that? I had lunch at... Oh. Hey what did you bite for? Oh God. Hay! Oh! Look at the tip of his tail. He loves Bets. Hay! Hay! Come here Hay! Come here, sweetie! Hay! Hay! Come. Hay come. Oh look, hes smelling Bets. Who is it? Do we know her? Look at him drink! Hay! Bad boy! Whos a bad boy? Oh yes. Hes completely after Babette. Hay, look what Ive got for you! Hay! Sit. Sit down. Good boy. Hes so cute. Loves Betsygirl. Have you killed a cat? Down. Down. Down. Oh, I know thats what you do. Youre good. Down. Hay down. Down. Down. Does he roll over? As that as far as he goes? Bets will roll over on her side. Yeah definitely. In order? Everything fine? Everythings fine now? Looks good? Look, I didnt realize that you had done a show with Curtis Cuffie. We love him and I always said to Cheryl... The homeless guy who built the constructions. I told I told you. But hes the guy who does the great things on Cooper Square. You know, its amazing because Ive said to Cheryl, Ive always said to Cheryl Ive said somebody should give this guy a fucking show, hes so good. Much better. Much better. Much better. Its OK, were

dog friendly here. Because I read the review of that and I was, like, I guess that it was like a review in the New York Observer or something like that... Yeah Jennifer knows all about that Outsider Art shes an... Hes brilliant. One more. We like him. We like him. Does he come in and do it? Hay! Look what Ive got for you. Dummy. Yeah. Does he buy drugs? Kenny, what happened to the hair on his tail? Awwww. Yeah, weve seen that. Weve been there, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I know. He found some of Davids stuff? Davids a nice guy. Sit down. Down. Sit. OK, here. Get it! Good boy. Are you going to da web tonight? Yeah. Ben Kin... oh yeah. At their space. Hays got major balls, hasnt he? No, hes got testicles! Did you chop them. No, Im talking about Hay. You never chopped his balls? Balls, yeah. Thats what they say about me. So, so hows the traffic at the site. Right, right. Very good. Cool. Cool. Everythings in tact in order, huh? Some reading and stuff. Let me know. I guess Geoff will let me know. What happened. Something about A.G.? What happened, he sold something under you nose? Geoff is? Yeah. Thats the art world for ya. Good thing Cheryl and I never sell anything. Were not involved in the nitty-gritty. Yeah we have nothing to... We never sell anything. OK. Stefanos gallery. A.G. bought A.G. bought 80 works on paper of mine. 80. Yeah. Yeah I made 80 drawings a few years ago and he bought the whole suite. Yeah, I wasnt going to break them up either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well go down to Johns. Well go down to Johns early. Hay! Good boy! What did you do with your dog when you went away? Did he have fun? Hes got such a different nose than Bets, doesnt he? Cheryl? Its so long. Nice tail. We have those too. So, Cheryl Ill see you and well go down to Johns when we come back. John Newmans having a party at his loft and were going to da web tonight so. The sculptor. Older guy.

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Good sculptor. Nice guy. Hes up at Yale. Another Ivy League guy. Kennys Kennys one. OK, listen, be in touch. Well, of course. And I want to come see you at the Art Hotel. Sure. Sounds good. OK. Ill be here. Bye you guys. Hi, what is your address there? Were coming to the party tonight and we cant make it home. OK, uh huh, OK great so see you tonight. So thanks a lot. OK bye. Hello. Whos this. Susan, its Kenny Goldsmith. What does that mean? Do I sound dead? Oh well, Im a DJ, you know? Hey listen, did you get to see the site? You did? Your book? What do you think? Youre happy with it? OK, great. I am the one that did the site. Yes OK, great. You think your work its representative in some feeble of your book? OK. Great. Great. Yeah. Did you poke around the site a little bit and see any of the other stuff. I mean, its not as sexy as a CD-ROM but but, you know, it works, doesnt it? Oh, thats right because you guys are doing another book with him he told me. God, busy busy. Thats great. Its a funny its a funny. Hes just so lovely, isnt he? Isnt he great to be involved with, I mean. I know. Hes the best. Hes the best. So anyway I was just calling to see how you guys were doing with the computer and everything. Alright, is it working? Is everything OK? Alright. I just wanted I havent spoken to you in a bit. Go get it Ill talk to you later. OK, do what you gotta do. Thats just me. OK. Alright. How was your lunch? How was it? Was it fun? Shes nice. Isnt she? What? Oh you...? Oh, shes so funny, isnt she? Shes full of laughs. Everybody starts yelling everybody starts yelling at each other, dont they? No. Thats the way youve got to deal with her. Youve got to yell back. I like I like her. I think shes really nice. Shes really cool, yeah, shes really cool. Well, so Im glad you liked the site anyway I wanted to ask you what you thought and... OK, well Ill... OK, well... Did you see the new Art in America? Theres a big big

thing on on a book I just made, yeah. OK, have a look at it. Id love you Id love you to see the book when its done. And we got... No, its finished. Its being published by Geoff Young. Yeah yeah, so. Yeah. This probably recently happened since the art you know how these guys work, right? Great. Did you see Cheryls review in the paper? OK, good. Alright, well were up on you were up on you and you know I just wanted to wanted to get just get your take on the uh on the web site. I just Ive gotten a lot of really nice feedback. It could be the best I think its the best site Ive done. Oh you know really, just just really cool. Have you been having any fun on the web or... ? No? You havent been out and around and having fun? Oh, Im sorry. Alright listen so lets talk I I hope I see you soon. Im just around and stuff, you know? Lets just hang out or something it was it was, you know... OK. OK. Good. Im glad you saw it. Um, Ill talk to you soon, OK? Charles? How you doin? I just want to hear how how things are going with your your machine. Yeah. Yeah what do you think? Do you like it? Is it coming in quick is it coming in clear? Yeah we had we had lunch today. She mentioned she saw it she mentioned she showed it, you know, you showed it to her and she said that you guys had a great time last night and all this stuff but... Yeah. Yeah. We sat... Yes? I dont get it. Great. Yeah. Great. Steal em. Go ahead. No no no. I give you permission. Ill give you more if you want. Did he let you know you just press on the yeah yeah. You know its a little diffi... its more difficult on Granary. Yeah. Yeah. Its in frames, yeah. Its granary books dot com. Oh its interesting OK so he figured that out. I want to know how your machines running. Any problems? Anything I can help you with? Yeah. OK, did you get like SoundMachine and everything have you been downloading your sound files? Oh Charles, thats what I meant to ask you!

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How did Broadway net work out? So youre up with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are so youre logging into the uh Broadway net from your home. OK and it... Yeah you just switch your pop account to right. I dont use it at all for email either. Im keeping my panix account for that its always good to have a backup account. Right. Right. Do you want me to put a forward or anything on your Broadway account or? Right. Right. Yeah, me neither. Unless like they sent something in house but I dont yeah... right you have to telnet in right and put a dot forward right and put it right exactly in right exactly. Put your email address right and theyll zip it in. OK. What are you using? So you guys finally figured it out. I see Loss has made some changes on the site up there. What what was it due to some of my comments? Uh huh. OK good. Yeah no I we we really went crazy Loss and I. Yes I have. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Why is that? You get it Charles. Im telling you of course you do but what about the typical web user? No, I dont have time for a 3 hour download. Charles, were joking. Oh good, well alright listen I just wanted to see how things were. Im glad Im glad to hear everythings up and running and everythings goo good with you guys? OK, well, lets get together or something. You know Marjorie and I had lunch today at at at at the MOMA and that was really fun and uh you know, shes great. Good. OK, lets be in touch. Ill just be a few minutes, OK? OK? You almost ready, baby? Is it cold out? What? What are you doin? Cheryl? What are you doin? Do you know where youre going to? What time do you have to be at class? OK, you wanna hang for a touch or you wanna get going? Im just finishing up some work. OK. Hows this record sound? Its a little bit old. Sounds good, doesnt it? OK, Im ready. How about you? Heres the card of that woman who showed your work in Russia. Are they still into Symbolism

there? They asked her about the red lipstick there and she said I dont know... its sexy and it makes great stains on the bread. Youre hot stuff. I love you. Here, hold it. Ay, dont you dare. Looks like Hay. Why did you say it looks like Hay? Like Hay? OK, cmon lets go this is gonna be good for you to go to this thing tonight. John Nuyman. Is Alix going? What time is she coming? Yeah. I got wasted today at lunch. Yeah. Seriously. Cats dig grass. Whats that mean? Im just working. Ive been taping everything. Sure am. Sure it. No it hasnt been. OK, were moving again. Were set thats written by Marjories daughter. Isnt that interesting? Shes a musicologist at OK its all working again. Yeah, pretty neat, huh? She was wild, man. These are really beautiful. Thats beautiful, isnt it? Look at that horse. OK, were all set. Im Im sorry for that delay. Something very simple was wrong. OK men. I had a really intense time. I wonder if I went too far? No, I dont think I went too far. I went far with her. I mean I really went far. I mean I went out on a limb. I went so far out as to say about Cage... and this upset her but I think it was good... I said we were talking about gossip I went back to my gossip theory how important gossip is, and we uh, I said, um that the canon. I said that her book was groundbreaking and I said her book made me realize that the canon was created by um, the canon is... I had a really great line for it I said it very simply I said the canon is created by whos sleeping with who or something like that. Oh and she didnt like that. She said now youre tramping on my on my cause we were dishing Cage you know how he was such a careerist and you know really going on about that and then but once I said that she says oh no! Now youre dissing my idol or something like that you know. Um, I think so. I was really outrageous. I was OK so we meet and we just start going. And I know she wasnt letting me get a word in

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edgewise but I I I battled her to get my words in edgewise, right? And then I went out of my way you know to be like completely completely talkative with her and completely insane, you know, like myself, you know, real up. We were going back and forth and back and forth, you know, we were gossiping we couldnt stay on a subject, you know, and then this guy joined us. Who was actually really nice but he was not a sniper and I said Marjorie, when this guy comes... he came a half hour later... I said Marjorie, when this guy comes, is it gonna be OK for us to dish and snipe like this? She says, yes, were gonna throw opinions around. As it turns out he was a nice he was actually a really nice guy. You know, but the conversation tamed but I I I couldnt have kept that up for like two hours we were there for over two hours but I could not have kept up the pace with her and I was really glad this guy came. And I kept saying outrageous things. The canon is formed you know, by uh whos screwing who or something like that. I said look at John Cage, he screwed Philip Johnson. And and and Marjorie says so? I said so how do think he got his Summergarden his his his concert at MOMA? And, you know, she said do you think he did that as a career as a career move? I said well partly. I said he was very strategic strategic about who he slept with, thats for sure. And I said, your book, you know, left that out. But she was sort of, you know, flip-flopping a little bit back and forth. I think shes probably thought that was a pretty good thing. They were nice. I think she thought it was sort of a cool thing. But I was acting really outrageous and I told her I told her Id build her a web site. Oh, she loved it! Shes got, you know, she said how much would it cost I said ah, you know, well talk about it, you know, you know, I suggested Id build her a web site and she loved it or she suggested that I build her one. And I I I thought thats a great idea, you

know, I said Id love to put all your stuff online. I think that would be terrific. Um. Yes she did. She she she OK. First thing I did was yeah. I brought her the uh, it gives us a chance to talk. I brought her the Art In America article, you know, I brought her I bought her a magazine and I gave it to her and before I could even give it to her she said oh I saw the Art In America thing. That is wonderful. I read it. I got it the day before I left I was so happy. I was youre doing so well. You know she was so happy to see that. Shes so up on it. What do you mean? Ah look, to tell you the truth I dont think she really, you know, she really read it with any detail. I think she saw it. I mean, shes a big flatterer. You know, shes very she likes to flatter. And so by the end of the time, you know, Im not quite sure of what she thinks. She was taking all sorts of different approaches to different people, you know, and and she would kind of turn on a dime a little bit and she was really mean to the guy we were gonna meet behind his back. Shes like, hes an environmentalist. And when I hear the word environmental I just want to run. Shes like, I hate ecology. It has nothing to do with my life ecology. And she said and I hate nature even more. Why dont we walk, why do we go down like Lafayette or something its a little quieter. And this guy, yeah shes a real character, and this guy, you know, he writes on the environment and Cage and Marjorie says hes soft. Right. Hes soft she said. You know, she had never met the guy but she sort knew his writing and, you know, we were really I was dishing, you know, and dishing, you know, it was a it was so familiar to me it was a real dish session and I was real, just real dishy about the whole thing. In a way that I really, you know, like to sling shit. We were slinging shit. It wasnt high academic stuff. We were just gossiping like mad. Lets walk down here. We were just gossiping like mad, you know, about different people.

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And shes really, whew! You know... you know, you know, I just slid into it. Isnt that funny. What? Yeah. Aw. She was really funny, you know. I just sat there I started slinging shit the minute I saw her. Completely. Completely, you know? I was just saying all these completely outrageous things. You know, it wasnt serious. You know she was just, you know, a big dish. Shes just a huge disher. You know and so you know its she talked about my work, you know, she really love, you know, really loved all my work and. You know, shes really nice. I mean, you know, as usual like Im paranoid like shell like hate hate the new book and stuff or something. And as a matter of fact I got so drunk and had so much fun I forgot to ask her to write a blurb. But the ice has been broken. Ill email her or something and ask her to write it, you know. So yeah, it was it was it was fun. I mean she took us out. I mean the MOMA thing is really expensive. You know? No we went to like the MOMA thing. Yeah. Yeah. It was nice. I mean I wasnt that hungry because I had eaten I had met John Lee for breakfast. That was that was OK, you know? That was OK. Thats where Kenny lives, back there in that little house. Straight back. Thats where Hay hangs out in that lot. So, I mean that was OK, that was easy, you know, I know how to play him too. I mean Marjorie was fun, you know, we drank two glasses of wine and I had a glass of cognac for desert in the middle of the day. She joined me for a glass of wine she didnt go she didnt go the extra mile. The guy that we were with was actually OK, you know, he was pretty sweet. But, yeah, I was acting a little bit outrageous and a little bit nutty, you know. But cool. Cool as shit. I mean, its true. I was just acting cool as shit. Hey, I have the tape if you want to hear! If you want to hear our conversation, its all there. Yeah. Youll read about it someday. Its all there. Yeah, I was acting, like Id been in the field for 95 years. It was fun. Shes shes

shes really. Yeah she likes to talk but I battled her for time. I wasnt just gonna sit there like a dope and let her let her talk. Yeah. I mean, you know, I wasnt gonna sit there. I just let her let it really really rip. You know, I we we just battled each other. I mean she hates this one she hates that one. She hates the work of this one she hates... Well, she really liked Bruces stuff, you know, she really thought Bruce was great and underrated and Bruce and her are going to, you know, were gonna all try to meet on Wednesday at the gallery. Shes writing I told you shes writing for the MLA on video art. Yeah, she wants to see your show I told I completely hyped. They had some world wide video festival or something the catalog at the bookstore at MOMA. Something you were in in Holland a couple of years ago I showed her that. And then we ran into the curator and she said oh Im going to see Cheryls show and I showed her in St. Petersburg, you know, and I was just like completely, you know, talking about you. Oh, she hates her work. She cant stand it. Well, yeah, we really didnt dis Charles, but you know she really loves Bruces stuff and shes gonna see Bruce so on Wednesday so I hope we can all see we can all see see each other. You know, it was it was really fun as a matter of fact I got really drunk and I I cant remember that much of it right now Im sure I will later Im feeling very right now Im feeling really foggy. Like like I had like, you know, like I got drunk in the middle of the day or something. Well youve got to teach youve got to be on I mean I, you know, once she once we started going I realized that I would be relaxing. You know, I played her. Shes just Jewish, shes gossipy, you know, I just went went for it, you know? So it was fun, you know, I dont know what it means. I dont know if it means anything. You know, were friends. I mean, she could turn on a dime, you know, she she... she sounds

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shes just like Jerry except Jerry loves to give you space, Marjorie doesnt. Youve got to fight her for the space. Youre talking at the same time with her. Its completely crazy. Youre just like arrrrggggghhhh, you know, battling for battling for airtime. No she is like Jerry in the sort of gushy warm Jewish way. Oh yeah? You called him? Why? What did he say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Oh, hes so sweet. Yeah. Thats nice, so thats good. Huh. Good good good. And was he sweet did you guys yak a little bit? Well, hes a guy who likes to make big promises and if he ever comes through its great, but but more importantly, you know, I kind of feel like just as importantly or equally importantly is that hes a friend. Hes a good guy. I like him. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Blah blah blee blah blah blah. Thats nice that you called him. So Cher, tell me about your John Simon thing. I couldnt we couldnt later. What does it look like? Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh. Wow. Huh. Right. Right. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Oh wow. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thats great. Thats great. How you doin? Going to Johns? OK. We were here. Kenny and Cheryl. Hi. So were dating him now. Were terrific. Kenny right. Cheryl. Whats your name? Of course I do. Here comes someone else. Hi. Oh, look at that. You know Ive never been here during the day. I am so tired. Its just hitting me. Im going to have to get a second wind from somewhere. I have a drink a little hair of the dog. Anyway Im glad so thats really great so you take screen shots and take it with you. Now I assume hes putting it under Sandras name so its going on Sandras site? I guess so. She paid for it. Good. Great. Is he happy? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Bummer. Buuummmmmer. Cheryl. Bummer. I draw I grow them I paint them and I smell them. Bummer. Hey babe. Good good. How often do I get to come to a cocktail party at your house? She sure it. The works all

gone but youre showing the multiples. Youre showing the multiples, right? So the pieces that we saw in the catalog are going to be at the gallery. Great. Well be there. Ill be there tomorrow night. Shes got French. Great. Great. Is it 6 to 8? Ill be there. Youre right there. Good. Good. Cmon lets get a drink. I need a drink. I need a drink. Here comes Ellen Ill just go. Into oblivion, I suppose. Can I have beer? I see a Corona box hanging out there. Oh. Uh, Ill have a glass of white wine then. Im really glad that it that it worked out. Im really I cant wait I guess well see it tonight. Yeah. Really. Oh, maybe Ill come. But you anybody can download it for free. Right. Thats a good idea. Huh. Good. I dont know how many shell sell... itll be hard. Cheryl Donegan. I guess its got I guess its got to be connected to a to a unix machine. Its got to be connected to a machine obviously we couldnt get it on our... Its got to be connected to a site, you know, in order to make the machinery run. Yeah. Yeah but its got to be put onto a a unix machine for it to work. Yeah, its gotta have a yeah its a script that it runs we dont dont we dont have it. Sure. I paint them I draw them I smell them. Yes. Yes. No he was fine. Fine. I paint them I draw them and I smell them. Yeah. Im glad because I bought those shoes. I got they they called me back they had my size they found my size and theyre sending them to me. I I mean I cant be dressed like this with these boots. So I I yeah when it I got, you know, Im getting those loafers. I needed a pair of good shoes I mean cool shoes I mean what am I gonna do. Fuck it. Lets blow the 300 dollars. To hell with it. Lets get rid of it. I spent look I spent 130 plus tax so you spend the 130 the 150 and lets call it a day. Why dont we dont know a soul here. We dont know anyone. Get the food! Wow! Im so not hungry. Im so like... I ate two pancakes with John. Here you go. Here you go, honey. Look at

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that log. What the hell is that? This is all very expensive, isnt it? Marjorie was like Marjorie was saying like what a bummer her work is. Did I tell you this? She hates it so much its like this horrible hokey stuff. She says she says I you know its so difficult because he is such a good artist and and and shes so terrible but you have to act like you like her work. She says I hate her work its the worst shit Ive ever seen, you know, and then she said I cant stand it when couples are like that and I was like, hey! Cheryl and I are not like that. Youll love Cheryls work. You love my work. Oh, well that was when I began to mention you was that then and there. She wanted to know like she said where did you learn about music, you know, weird questions like that. She thinks I know a lot about music. Yeah. Yeah. I told her I was a DJ. What? Did she know what stuff beforehand? Pretty. Did she know what stuff beforehand? Small feet on good artists is not right. I hate small feet. I cant stand I think there is something wrong with men who have small feet. It bums me out. Its true. Did I ever tell you that? I see a guy I saw a guy in the shoe store yesterday who was really tall with small feet and it just didnt look right. Yeah. I hate people with small feet. So. No, no I mean not really. She didnt know a lot about me. She was reading, you know, in Raphaels article she said oh, you know, heres you now I know all about you. She obviously hadnt read it straight through. She was funny, you know, she said you love gossip so much. Where does gossip come into your work? She thinks its so austere. And I said well when its 5, and then she looks at the page printed in the Art In America shes like, wheres the gossip? Its only 5 syllables. What happens when you get to 200, 500 and 2000? Its all gossip. And then she said something really weird to me. You know how like you always get hung up one thing that somebody says and I and I got hung up on one

comment of hers. And the comment was. And it was something like and it wasnt related to this but it just sticking in my mind its the point she said were talking about like really dreadful confessional work and shes like well, you wouldnt write anything confessional, would you? I said, well, absolutely not, really. But then I started to think, like some of the longer pieces are little bit confessional but theyre mostly appropriated; the I is not me. The I in most of them. Its like I hate this I hate that Im sick... Its not real but I I look at this ladys cane. Does that look familiar? Yes. It makes me happy to see that actually. Yeah I I got a little, you know, like I have to Im going to have to give her a little disclaimer before I give her the thing that theres very little of the I in there. Im interested in a subjectivity thats not my own. Im interested in a confession that has nothing to do with my life. You know, like taking shit from the net. Yeah, yeah I I... But I mean my my that new work piece of mine the new book is filled with that but none of its mine. Its all just appropriated. Its chosen for for sound, you know, for sound and... Oh. Right. You should have been we slammed we slammed the reverent Cage disciples, oh we... she slammed them. She hates it. She hates it so much. Thats not what John was about thats like thats like the reverent reverential. Like when people go on about handing out grades shes like no, thats not what he was about. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was very intense, you know, I I I, you know, I I I suppose the only way to deal with Marjorie is to come on really strong. To deal with her in any sweet way, like this guy, hes never gonna leave any impression on her this guy we had lunch with. Bright guy. Undergraduate PhD in philosophy graduate P undergraduate in philosophy at Harvard PhD at Boston, you know, in philosophy. Very bright guy. He edits this magazine. He just finished a book on Wittgenstein. Bright guy. 33

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years old, you know, my age, nice guy really he was very sweet but he was a little watery, you know? And I was figuring the only way to deal with somebody like that is to fucking come at them with equal equal force. I think so, you know, I really... So, she says whats the future? I said were looking for it. She said its in computers its in video, you know, you know, she was thinking of us, you know, like all... Im like well that could be it, yeah. That could really be it, Im not sure. No no no. We have we will do like we will change names to protect the innocent here. I had this really weird conversation with John today about I was telling him about this piece that Im making of course I didnt tell him listen to the guise I had during breakfast. I was a little bit nervous about keeping this in my pocket was gonna work. So what I did was I put this thing out on the table but I plugged my Walkman earphones into this but I left the whole thing out on the table running. Yeah of course everybodys carrying their their little piece of technology with them and I looked at everybody, you know, on Broadway has their little Walkman or piece and Im like great! This is a great guise like when I working with somebody and Im not like wearing all this coverage. I can just like take my Walkman off, keep my headphones around my neck and click the microphone, you know, nobody will ever know but its a great disguise. You know so it doesnt have to look so secret so when I was there with John I just had the Walkman there on the table going the whole time! And of course the mic is sitting here on my tie! No I didnt say a word nor did I to Marjorie either. I mean I havent said anything to anyone about that. No but, you know, cause I was walking around like this today and it looks like a Walkman. Everybodys got their piece of machinery on them. Their beeper their Walkman. Whos gonna say that this a tape recorder and not a Walkman? So, like when Im

walking with Co when Im working with Connie tomorrow if Im not wearing 3 shirts and I dont, you know, and Ive wearing a t-shirt I can just put the head and the whole time I wore like with John I was walking out of the restaurant I had the headphones around my neck and it looked like I was like grooving to my my Walkman he he hes not looking at this thing. But I said to John I told him about this piece right, you know, hes like well, you know, were talking about shit and I said like, you know, like I have this idea with this piece that I could do weird things with this with this work once I collect a weeks worth of language that Ive spoken shit and spew. Like, how many words is it, right? With an eyedropper and a glass how many drops of water would it take to fill that glass with words that Ive spoken for this week? How much would that be? Say its 50,000 words. How much what what what would be like the eyedropper visual equivalent of that, you know, its like talking to John I was like spitting off the top of my head spinning these ideas. Right? Like whats, you know, hes like Im like look John I, you know, I actually told him look I dont want to I dont want to I dont want to um cancel anything out. You know Ill just leave my options open, you know, I didnt say no were finished. Well, you know, do you have any visual ideas? I said no not not right now but Id like to keep the door open in case I do have some visual ideas. John agreed. The book shouldnt go the book should not be displayed in the gallery. I totally agreed. A book is a book. He was cool about it. Well sell it. Well promote it. Well have a party if you want. You know, hes got a lot of calls from the article people asking wheres the book? But I said, you know, I said, you know, he said well what about, you know, do you have any visual ideas. Not right now but then I said oh Im working on this piece. And I just start spinning these visual equivalents of what I could

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do. And I thought that was actually a really a neat a neat idea like if I take all the clumps of raw language and and, you know, and what is how much is the equivalent of it translated into different things, you know, like like how many jellybeans are in the jar kind of thing. Each jellybean represents a word that we a word, you know, and heres the weeks worth of words. I dont know it could go up go up to the ceiling, you know, or it could just just fill this glass with drops from this eyedropper. You know, like translating all this raw material that Im speaking right now into, you know, into equivalents. I actually thought it was a really interesting idea. Kind of neat, huh? Or if I printed them all on a page, Id probably have a stack. I mean, it would make everybody realize how much garbage they speak. How cheap language is, you know. So I said to John like, yeah I dont really have any ideas now but I said look, I just want to keep the door open, you know. I said you guys, you know, look Im not really looking for any gallery work Im not looking for any other gallery Im not looking to sell anything Im not looking to have a conventional career as an artist. But if I decide to do something visual again and something thatll fit a gallery and he said well wed like to support you. Which was really nice, you know, it made me think yet, you know, if I ever if I have ideas like, you know, like putting drops in drops of water into a glass, you know, 600 million drops of water how much, you know, that might be a really nice piece and it might really, you know, look good in a gallery. You know, why not? You know? So, I dont know I just said look lets leave the door open. Oh we had lunch we had breakfast at Noho Star for about an hour and a half. Ah, I didnt really ask. He just listened to me. We talked about it. Hes pissed that I didnt go to the opening of the Jewish Museum and his point was look, if you agreed to participate in the piece then

youve got to go. Its OK not to go if you say youre not going to be in it but you cant have it both ways, you know, the minute you you the minute, you know, you really decide to do something just do it. You have to do it. You have to show up. And actually it was it was, you know, an alright point. No, I I, you know, I said look, Im real conflicted, you know. On one hand I like the idea that Im in that show. I like the idea that the, you know, image is all over the place. Its fine. Who wouldnt like it? On the other hand I dont like the context. I think its, you know, I think its a really bad context and Johns like you shouldnt have done the show. I said right. Im Im divided. I cause I did do the show I did say its OK to do the show. John says if you do the show youve got to do the stuff that goes with the show. He says I dont mind if you dont do the show if you dont want to do it. But dont dont... you know, he said dont embarrass me dont embarrass yourself, you know, either shit or get off the pot with those things in terms of commitments for the future, you know. So, I mean, John hes a good guy John. We may be going our separate ways, you know? I mean its pretty clear we are in some ways, you know, hes a good guy and I think his values are are good and, you know, I dont really have much of a, you know, problem with that and I like the idea that the door is open. You know, I dont know what Im going to do with all this language. Maybe Ill make a visual equivalent of it. Maybe Ill make, you know? I just dont know. But I like the idea that the door is open. I mean, Im not gonna look for a hotter gallery. I mean, you know, if I want to show some shit in a gallery Ill Ill hes there hes there to do it whether he stays in business is another matter but hes there to do it, you know? Oh so, then he came back to the then he came back to the office I showed him some Internet stuff he said oh I want to go to this place called art-

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netweb, right? So we went to artnetweb and we start and theyve got all the shows listed with a picture so we looked your show up. This is a different site than artweb. This called art... yeah. No this is art net web dot com. So we looked and and and and we pulled Johns show. Anyway we pulled up your show at Basilico. And its got a picture of the video oh no no! Im sorry. Its got a picture its got a picture of either I cant remember what it was we were really moving through things fast and then, you know, its got a description about your piece and then it says comments click here for gab and people can comment on the shows. So so we went to your gab section on. Theres one comment there. Theres one person commented on your show. It said Cheryl Donegan rocks my world. You know who it was signed by? Colleen Trimble! Colleen found it on the web somehow! There was no other comments. Only Colleen! It cracked me up! I mean I was like she didnt even tell us when she said that. I was just like I read it and I said whoa! Somebody really liked Cheryl then I read it and it says Colleen Trimble. Youre youre so red yeah. OK, lets get more more booze though Im Im getting a second wind with the hair of the dog. I have I guess this day is trashed. Can I have more white wine? Want another? Sure. Let me see how much time I have left on my tape. Is Betsy with her friends? Is Betsy with her friends? Hi Jay. How ya doin? Nice review Friday. Both of you. Congratulations to both of you. Yeah. Congratulations to both. You Ive congratulated you I havent. That was terrific. No me. Not usually. Have you seen Cheryls show? She has a show at Stefano Basilico now. Far out. Wow. Very good. So you live in Singapore. So hows that? Fun? Its hot like hell. Have you every been to The Jurong Bird Park? The Jurong Bird Park? Its very famous. I met no those are those crazy girls I met in India and one of them worked at the

Jurong Bird Park and I actually went out and saw it on the Internet once. Yeah. Do you have Internet? Does your gallery have Internet? Im not an artist she is so you she can shes shes the person. Cheryl write your name on the... Do you read this? You dont read it at all? Is it Chinese? Youre not youre not learning Chinese any time soon. No I saw the Jurong Bird Park on the Internet so itd be good to see your gallery on the Internet. I will. Ill look it up. Were gonna look it up. John John had a show with you? Tom Wessleman. Thats the toothpick. Were familiar were familiar with this work. Yeah, hes famous. Is this, oh, this is a crazy typeface. Did you make these in Singapore? You made these in Singapore? Cheryl has a show of painting and video. Where does Tom Wessleman live? The beach? Wait wait wait! I want to look at the back back matter. This is beautiful. Is this U.S. or Singapore dollars? What is the dollar equivalent to Singapore... Are you visiting artists studios? Shes right here. Shes right here in Manhattan. Shes a Biennial artist. She was in the last Biennial. No no Im not. I can say I can say anything. No, Cheryls very Cheryls very famous. She really is, no, really young artists studio visit... Thank you. Darling. I wont hike but I like the cold weather. Wanna switch? If you hate the cold weather why dont you come to to New York in July in August? No no I mean have you been in New York in August? Now now thats hot weather. I was in India but I thought New York in the summer was much worse. Indias nothing... Even hotter, right. So why do you live there? Come to New York for a challenge. Really? No no no no no. Thats not true. Isnt the isnt the guy in India. This is Asia. This is Asia proper. I have no idea. Oh, thats nothing. Ah, its nothing! This is terrific. No actually its amazing that youre the only only contemporary art dealer... Theres nothing in Thailand? OK, nice to talk to you. Go see her

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show. I sure do. Bye, nice to meet you. Yeah, I dont think so. Cheryl was at Art Omi but go ahead. But Eric is not extremely verbal. Oh tell, tell. But Peters work is so much more interesting like a million times eclectic subject matter. Lets just dish, lets go. Yeah but all those artists are saying something. I dont think Eric is really has anything to say. But I like I like reading Ruth Reichels reviews. I think theyre fun to read and and you know its another field altogether. Its another field I like her reviews. I think theyre rich. Just admiring her child. Hi. Alright. When is her baby coming? When is her baby due? You know Cheryl was at Yale with her. That can be good and that can be bad. No, that can be good and that can be bad. Really? Congratulations. Thats wonderful Jay. Congratulations. Are a godfather of any other child? This is not this is not a Jewish thing. Im not a godfather. Its never been brought up in my context. You you know godfathers and godmothers. This is something I know nothing about. This is nothing Ive ever heard of growing up. Ive never... Well I heard of it but its not not part of... Congratulations, this is very good. Whos your godparents? Oh you you too. Who are they? Who is your godparents Jay? Will you give the child a good religious upbringing? Thats our religion, isnt it? Cheryl got the idea when she heard Jessica shed like to go. Wow! Do you do you live here in the city? And youre raising your children in the city? Thats great great idea. What a great place to grow up. I wish I grew up here. I went to Camp Walt Whitman. Long Island. You grew up in Brooklyn? Where? Do you have family there still? It was a Workmans it was a yes it was. It was a gay Workmans Circle... I used to feel I used to feel so embarrassed when kids used to say I went to, like, Tamarac and Camp Na Sho Pa and Id be like I went to Camp Walt Whitman. It was all about poetry. More or less yeah. Yeah it was great. It was

Workmans Circle. It was it was very Leftist very Leftist very radical camp, yeah. Where did you go, Jay? What was the name. Cmon. Oh, that could be fun. That could be fun. That could be... So where do you live in the city. Yeah. On 15th. Oh I wish I grew up in the city I you know. Im a generation removed. My parents grew up in Brooklyn. Everybody else moved out to the Island. Exactly. My grandparents live in Cedarhurst. Wait my aunt and uncle in in Great Neck. Im from Port Washington which is between Great Neck and Roslyn, you know. Deb and I are like from Rockville Centre shes like my big sister. I do too. I say the same thing. Shes from Rockville Center. Thats where my whole family is from. Avenue D, oh boy. Shes buried in Cypress Hills now. Thats where my whole family has their plot in Cypress Hills Cemetery. Back back back to the old neighborhood. Yeah. Where where did you grow up? I I Im a DJ at a radio station in East Orange. Oh, you like FMU, good. Is an FMU junkie? Oh you guys... I go out I go out to FMU every week to do a show. Im glad Im glad youre a listener. Late night late night show. Oh I talk about the music I play mostly. Its the best its the best station in the world. Theres nothing like it. Wheres your wheres your husband? Whos your husband? Oh, I know Billy I do know Billy. Im surprised I dont know you... Billy is Al Ruppersbergs friend. Sure Al and I Al and I live next door to each other. Oh I didnt know that she was Billys. Got it got it got it got it. I didnt know you were Billys wife and I know. Got it. Forget. Al is like Al is like our big we call him Uncle Al. Al is our uncle Deb is our big sister. Well you work with all so its a different story but Al is Uncle Al to us. Right. You want more wine? Tape 3 testing. Monday April 15th. Hey. How ya doin? Hi honey. Are you going to da web afterwards? No no the party the party afterwards. I think it should be fun. I

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think it should be fun. Im going. Im going. Yeah I think it will be fun. Im gonna go with you guys cause shes shes gotta teach. It was horrible. Boogs birthday party. Oh I couldnt I couldnt try it was horrible. Oh Alix! We shouldnt smoke pot or anything. God forbid, Alix! When did you become? Well it didnt work too well last night. Honey! Maybe, but we would have been too sleepy to... Oh it was it was the most disgusting shit I ever tasted. No it doesnt. Its really bitter. It tastes horrible. Yeah our friend makes it every year its a bummer. Every year he says its getting better and every year I try it and its worse. Yes. Well we bought. No. Well we bought them... Alix, its a bummer. Well thats Boog, thats Boog, yeah. You never met Boog after all these years you never met Boog? This is a guy Ive Ive been friends with since eighth grade. Ive never lost touch with him were dear friends. Oh, hes ridiculous. He hates living in this age. He wants to live in the forties. Yeah. Look at Meyers dog. Whats the name? Tanya? Tanya! Tanya! Hi Meyer how ya doin? How ya doin? Tanya! Hi Tanya. Whats up with the dog? Did she take a shit on the floor. Cheryl did you say hi to Tanya and Meyer. When she shit on the floor thats why I said that. Kenny. Hi how ya doin? Did she shit on the floor. We were gonna bring Babette tonight but we heard Tanya was gonna show up so we didnt. Congratulations on your show. You two you review stars. Whatever. Both of you whatever. Hey so I in Caracas. Right. For Monicas show. Its a rough place, man. Whoa! Are you from Caracas? Oh, New York is lovely. New York is like a small town compared to Caracas. Oh its like a country village here. Oh my god. The cabbies are the rough are rough too but they said to me. They put us in this shithole downtown, right? Next to the government center in this really terrible place downtown and the cabbies were like yeah downtown, the cabbys like

run run run run dont stay out here. I mean, its so rough, man, its a really mean place. Right. Well we went to Monicas apartment. When we went there there were people with guns pointed at us. The guards had guns and they knew Monica... No, Im trying to shock you go they knew Monica and they still pointed a gun at her! Monicas like its OK its OK, you know, we live here, you know... Very wealthy. She lives in a very wealthy neighborhood too its like, man, guns in your face everywhere it was like yo this is serious. Compared to Bogota. That I that I can almost believe. No thank you thank you. Ive had enough. And the citys ugly, man, the citys... yeah the parents were nice but the city the city is just... I mean its just so... all this cast concrete and... Yeah. It was really. I was there for 10 days at the Museo de Bellas Artes. No I was in a show there. The show that Monica Amor... she says that theres a catalog coming. Right thats what she said. The catalog... The people I met, OK, the people in the very upper... OK you met the people in the around the museum who were in the upper class. Really nice. The people were really cool really chic really nice the people who lived on the top of the hills inside the city. Yeah. Im sure you must know these people that Monica knows. Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. Had a big party had a big party in this beautifully chic chic place. And then I also thought the food was really good. The food was wonderful. But they was other than that, man, I was so glad I was no I didnt get to the beach. Where did you work there? Were you working at the museum or something cultural? Were you where did you get the money? What was your job? Cause I knew all these people we meet all these people working in the theater there across from the museum. Yeah in the opera. We met all all of these people who were working in the opera. I mean it was. You know, if the, you know, the the... the sort of upper

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class thing is great but the class division is really harsh. Really harsh. No. The people gave us money when we came there. But of course it was worth nothing when we came here. So I just gave it I gave the whole thing to somebody. Somebody whos whos father was really sick. I didnt know her but I was like take my money. Yeah. Who worked in the opera. She had no money I was like to pay for the funeral I was like here take my money. They gave us so much money. There was nothing there that I really wanted, you know, you know... I went to I went to the flea markets. I bought records underneath the highway, you know, the books the records are under the highway. I bought a bunch or records, you know. Yeah, but actually they were about the same price as they were here. It was really sad, man. Caracas really was a drag. Man it was mean. Oh, its lovely here, you know? So have you shown in the contemporary museum there? Like everybody everybody has, right? Right. Right. We were there when there was like a South American biennial. I dont remember the name. I was there in October right after you moved. Maybe yeah maybe. There was a thousand artists in it. Yeah. So, what are you doing here in New York. Yeah. Cheryl used to teach there, yeah. So you have a studio there and youre like there? Are you there through uh through uh are you there through a miracle or are you there through Venezuela? Oh, youre the Venezuelan artist. She put her she put her time in. Fuck you. Look at Sonias Sonias tail. Sonia! Sonia! Awww, we all go awwww. Lets give her some cheese. Sit! Sit! Good girl! God I never met a dog that that... Do you do know Monica Amor? Shes nice. In Venezuela. Yeah Monicas crazy, you know, yeah in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. Its her own world. I saw Michelle White at the MOMA Bookstore today. So Cheryl has a show at Stefano Basilico now. Jerry. Jerry I saw you Sunday you had a beard! Theres

Jerry he shaved his beard. Testing. Testing. I just wasnt made for these times song going now. Yeah. Oh, Im burning out. I had a breakfast appointment, a lunch appointment, and now this and then I have to go to da web and Im Im burning. And I I was drunk at one oclock this afternoon at lunch. Yeah it really is unusual. I had lunch with a with a literary critic that I know and... hey thanks for your call. Thanks for you call. 3 artist article. 3 artist article. So, do you guys want to go get a bite to eat after this? Cheryls gotta go, uh, shes got class. Ive got a 10 dollar Casio. What have you got? Theyre great. I lose them I lose them I dont mind. Yeah. So what do you guys want to do? Ill Ill I dont know how much Ill eat but Ill sit with you. You want to slip over to Chinatown? Yeah. Yeah. And then well go over to da web. Grazie grazie. God do you know a year ago we went to Johns opening? Exactly. Yeah. I asked him. Yeah. We went to see, uh, the Satyajit Ray films. Remember? Remem yeah of course. Yeah, you gonna go tomorrow night up there? Yeah cuz Im Ill probably go up there Ill go to Vedanta because they have a Tuesday night thing and then Ive got to go out to the radio station for late night. So, Im gonna be kind of there. Let remind Cheryl that shes gotta be where shes gotta be in in in 15 minutes. Youve gotta be where youve gotta be in 15 minutes. Yeah. 5 minutes. Sonia thinks we have food for her. Meyer is it all about food? Is it all about food? No no no no. You are maintaining her lifestyle. You provide for her. OK Alix wants to say goodbye. Give us some real food. Give us arepa. Alright. Have a good time. When does it end? See ya. Come speak to Alix shes gotta say goodbye to you. Do it. Do it. Ill go with you. Hey guys. You look exhausted. You dont look bad but you look like youve just come in No, you look like youve yes. Roberta you look... He shaved the beard. How does she

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look? Im just, yeah. She just walked in. She just walked in I go, you look exhausted! Are you guys going this summer? You guys got it again? You did. When are you going? Nice work. Youre going again. Well well well make sure to see you. We will. Good, Im glad you got it again. Ay get out of here Donegan. OK. Do your. Do your thing. Ill see you soon. See you later. Am I gonna see you at da? Wait, do you have the address? Do it. All right. What do you say? Do it. Where do you guys wanna go? I like them all. Im not that that ravenously hungry. Yeah. Im not ravenous. Yeah, I dont care care to know her. Yeah. Thats weird. Thats weird. I dont like that kind of writing. If its a bestseller I couldnt care less. Its not interesting. No Im not in really its another world. Its really its really another world in what Im involved with. I mean I dont read fiction first of all, unless its ninetieth century. Lets say fiction doesnt apply to this century so... Shall we go? Wheres Cheryl? Maybe we can all walk out together. Did she go this way? Cmon lets go get her. Bye. See you around. Kenny. See you around. We will. Wait were come were walking out with you. Take it. What is it just one of those leather coats? Take a take a nice one. Go ahead. Feel this coat. Alix is gonna just to upgrade. Alix is gonna upgrade on her coat to something nicer. No no lets rifle through the pockets and get Alix lets rifle through the pockets and get money for dinner. Whos? Nice pair of glasses. They wont fit. Sure. Yes. Youre a lush. Youre a lush Donegan ay. What time is your class over 10:30? So youll show up at da about 11? Alright. Oh is it near there? 22nd street. Knowing Cheryl therell be a little bit therell be a lag time. Fif... 13th? Where did you go last time? Hey. Hah! Thank you Alix. Alix, shes a packhorse! Yeah you gotta get one up this way going north. Shes subbing for him. Yeah. We dont. Right Alix? When I saw when I saw Edouard at

that party and Alix and I exchanged a glance. Yeah Cheryl. Yeah, well. Its good but, him. Not anymore. Hes losing it. Do you think hes losing his looks? Lets go. Lets go. Well, thats diplomatic. He was cute. Yeah right. Somehow we get away with it I dont understand why women dont. Women or men? Yeah there were a lot of craggy women up there. Oh god, Im glad I didnt know them! Here comes another one. Im glad I Im glad I didnt know them Alix much of many of those women. Did you did you know too many? Uh huh. Cheryl see you at da web! Cheryl if I dont see you there Ive gone home and it was boring. Ill see you at home. Bye! About John? Hes got a girlfriend. I dont know. No. I dont know anything about it. All he say to me is shes so famous! Hes. Yeah, of course he is. Sure. John? Enamored of fame? He wishes he was famous! Do you guys wanna go up to the Thai place or the Vietnamese place up there? OK, lets do it. No I didnt really know anybody. I knew Jay I knew I knew Meyer that was about it. Oh I didnt see any of them. Havent seen them in years. Uh hmm with you. And then Cheryl and I were there just recently. Are you freezing? You know, cozy are models arent they? You guys wanna go to New Pasteur or you wanna go to Thailand make your choice. Alright. Yeah. I dont like movies, yeah. Still. Yeah, I talk. I talk the whole time. Oh I dont I dont anymore. You guys sit there so I can face you. Oh yeah, great great. Id like to check that out. I really would. Well WFMU late night radio it might be. Ive been fucking I had a a lunch a breakfast appointment. I got trashed at the MOMA fancy restaurant for lunch and then then Johns. Its been a debauched day. Yeah, the only way I can do it is to keep drinking, I think. Im drunk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have to keep drinking or Im gonna be asleep. Sure sure. What what what should I eat if Ive been drinking all day? Soup maybe soup? A thing

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of rice? Ive been eating all day too. You guys you two do it Im going Im going solo here yeah Ive got to I think Im gonna have some soup I think I need that. Im just high nothing can dampen it so just go on. I dont know it was 9 a. m. Yeah I have an appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow too. Noho Star? Lovely. Oh its a nice place. Yep. Aw. Why dont you guys why dont you give me a um um vermicelli with uh uh beef. Yeah. No no no. Im gonna have trouble with one thing. Just water for me thanks. I take the bus out there. Uh about a few blocks but the problem is that last week there were two gunshots fired out in front of the studio. Yeah. Oh you were listening to whos show? It was Tuesday night and it must have been Merediths show. Yeah yeah. Well it was by it was by a car being chased by cops. Yeah well, I was there I was in the studio when it happened. It was harsh. Its weird. Yeah, its gotten a lot funkier out there, yeah. I dont mind it to me its like sort of going out to the country. It really is. Its like suburban there are trees its really pretty. But East Orange has the highest rate of crime in the country. Yeah and. So. Oh, um, the 6 a.m. show the Jewish show. No, you do you do all that yourself. Yeah. Nothing. Often times Im all alone in the house. Its creepy I got to tell you, man. I got to say, youre in this empty place, yeah. Yeah, but, you know, its really fun. I, you know, I dont mind, you know, I live in New York City. Im gonna be damned if fucking I walk 4 blocks... Well its a pilgrimage. Im gonna be damned if I walk 4 blocks and worry about getting mugged I mean Im in this fucking city, you know, what please. It cant be rougher than New York, really. So I say to myself. No I havent in New York? No I havent. No no. Never. Ive never had any trouble in this city. Yeah. Ive never seen you anything but calm. Have you? OK, its possible, huh? I havent I havent seen this yet. And what did they say? Yeah. I I I once

got got uh kind of caught up in a scheme. Ive gotten caught up in a few schemes in the city. But Ive never been kind of had a knife to my neck. Cheryl was like had an attempted rape. You remember this on Canal St? When we first lived here about 10 years ago this guy, you know, kind of like, you know, followed her back from the subway about 5:30 in the evening and in the doorway attempted to rape her. Cheryl kicked the guy and ran upstairs. She got right right out of that situation. She calls me up frantic shes like this guy tried to rape me I was like ahhhh! We were broken up at the time so I flew over there I was like oooohhh! Yeah yeah. It was that that was as closest to violence sort of violent crime weve had in the city. But, you know, the East Orange thing, you know, like the guy that shot this guy on Lafayette Street recently. There was a there was a car hijacking or a car or two guys getting into an altercation on Lafayette and Bleecker, which is right around from my office and it was, you know, some guy from East Orange in the car that blew this other guy away. So, you know, East Orange is really mean. I havent quite gotten gotten that yet but, uh... Yeah yeah I dont I never. What are they gonna do like take my 20 dollars and I have a bunch of avant garde records, you know? Hey guys, you know, you want my Stockhausen and Varese records? Yeah. Yeah. I go back I catch the 6:30 bus yeah. I sleep all day Wednesday. It blows me off for a good two days, yeah. I cant do it much longer. I cant do the overnights much longer I feel like I put my time in but whats happening in the summer we may go to France Cheryl got through Dominique some woman has a chteau in France and Dominique recommended Cheryl to go there. So we may go... Yeah what they do what they do in France is that they give you money if you house artists. Shes got a chteau in Bordeaux. The government gives you

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money so we may go we may go there Im thinking that were gonna be there for two months cause I dont want to be here this summer Ive been here for the last 5 summers. So Im kind of thinking if thats the case then Ill give my radio show up for the summer and Ill go back in the fall Ill get my radio show back in the fall. Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. Its just a matter of us telling her when were gonna come. Yeah, were were really thinking of that. Well the last 5 years weve been in the city. Havent left the, you know, we really havent left New York. I mean I left for India for two months and thats about it. Yeah. No Cheryl was teaching in Copenhagen so I I went alone which was good. Id like to get back to India. Id like to get to India this this... Yeah. I mean thats a real dream its a real dream. Yeah. Its a great place. Really. Yeah the North is pretty amazing. I wanna go, yeah. No no no. Honest. You were just away. Im sorry, yeah. It was just a month ago! You got back you got back its April fifteenth... thats a month and a half Alix! Well, a lot a lots gone on I know, yeah. Hey so did you get my message? Yeah. Nice work with Spain. Thats great! Well but if it happens you guys are gonna makes some money and its 150 bucks a minute, they said. Honey, if its 5 minutes you make a lot of money its very good. Its very... Yeah. Yeah. Well its you, Cheryl and someone she met in Lyon. So what are they little snippets do they give a whole. Well, you know, 3 minutes times 150 thats 4... 450. Thats pretty good. Yeah, you know what? I sold I gave my book to White Columns. Right I gave it to White Columns for their auction cause, you know, they they wanted something so I gave them a manuscript a signed manuscript of my book it sold for 100 bucks for a signed manuscript. Well of course I didnt get any money but I was really happy, you know. Our our our expectations are just just just decreased these days. Nobodys, you know, nobodys

making money, man. Suddenly, uh... It aint the old days, hon. Cheryl feels that way too. You know, were making no money. Cheryls making no money. Im making no money. And we kind of figure, you know, what the fuck? You know, its just just just just the way it is these days. Naw. I think like like last year I made like nothing. Like Cheryl made, like, last year a little more than nothing. I made nothing. Actually, my Internet biz is good. And thats gonna make me some money. Im actually making a reasonable... Well thats good, yeah, you know, its I dont mind I like working, you know, Ive always been working more or less I mean, you know, I worked for Allan and now, you know... Took a couple of years off, you know. Anyway, no Alix. It wasnt that long. That was a good run. But you know Ive got a Ive got a Ive got to be honest man Ive got to be honest with you... No, its fine. I can handle the Geoff and A.G. stories. Well, there you go. You got a check. It was probably like he probably was trying, like, to get Michelle to give a drawing for the no for the summer show. I think thats thats right. Times are hard. Whos publishing my book. Yeah Ive Ive gotten Ive used to it hes a good guy hes, you know, Ive Ive gotten used to his shenanigans. Do you guys have the sauce for this? Im getting sauce. Its dry. Its like its like stick in my throat dry. Yeah, you know, hes a difficult character, yeah but she got a check. Fine. Im happy Im happy when I get a check, yeah. Divorced. Second divorce. So, what did you guys do this weekend you went... You have a good time? What did you guys do? My cousin lives in Southport. My cousin and Cheryls sister, a lot of moisturizer, you know Southport? Yeah. They live in Southport, yeah. No my cousin and Cheryls sister are married. Yeah. My cousin who was raised as Cheryls brother yeah. No after. Uh huh. They live in Southport. Shes going to Yale and uh yeah weve been up

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there, man. Fucking Southport is really nice. Really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, its close enough anyway. Its really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, theyre cool. Well I was used he was raised as my brother. And we we were together inseparable basically, yeah, basically. Not literally, I mean, he had his own parents but we were... No. We were yeah. But he was my brother I mean he was raised as my brother. Oh all the time. Yeah. Hes a great guy. Yeah, me too. I got one. Doovies my brother married Cheryls sister basically. Its pretty cool. Yeah. Theyre what? Theyre where? David says he always eats he always eats in Westport. I mean he says the food is real good theres all these great restaurants in Westport thats where these guys go all the time. Is she a good cook? Yeah. Oh cool. That seems like that sounds like just a chill out weekend, huh? Where Grand Central? I dont know. I always like the subway. I just feel good. Cheryl and I always feel good when we come back from my sisters house who lives in in Briarcliff Manor or its in Westchester really ritzy area of Westchester. We always see like weird fucking people on the subway downtown were always really happy when we see them sort of like, oh, were back in New York, thank god. These people dont... she cute a good looking kid. She really is good looking kid. Girl. Isabelle. Yeah, its a cute its a cute kid yeah. Better looking than their kid, Ill tell ya that. Ugly. Them? Uh, my sisters better looking. Dont you think? Yeah yeah. Well anyway, same shit. They were born on the same day. Yeah. Aw, Cat. No. Cause shes fat. I heard she was pregnant many times over the years and she was never! No you never you dont ask these kind of things. No shes fat. She looks like shit. I dont. I dont. Look who Im married to! Christ, Im married to a hermaphrodite! Cheryl satisfies all my bisexual... things. She is! Shes like shes either like a cute little girl or a cute little guy. Shes not curvaceous. No!

No she doesnt! Alix, shes built like me! Shes got more hips than I have but not much! And I dont have any. Its good. It works. It keeps me away from the guys it keeps me away from guys! No no no it does it does. Its enough its enough its cute enough its its its its sort of bisexual enough to keep me at home. Yeah. If I was with a voluptuous woman Id want to find some guys. This works for me. You say what you want. Ay, there are no no secrets here. You have a great body. You have an amazing body. No you got the leather pants. You got the leather pants. Youre small. You have but you have bigger tits than Cheryl does. Well I wouldnt know that. I only know Cheryls. Its kind of extended. I feel it already, this mans family. You know we are what what the fuck, you know. I mean ________________ . So we went out with her last night to Viet to Chinese food. Who was the guy. Who? No she wouldnt. No she wouldnt cause she cause Bruce Andrews was there. And Bru, you know, if it was just me and Cheryl it would have been... And who? Who was it? Yeah. Yeah. Yes yes yes yes that tailgated her. So? Well then if it wont then tell me. Alix it wont it wont go any further than this table other than to Cheryl. Now, lets go! Oh, well Gavins wife was like really a total babe in the day. His wife. We first met Gavin, probably 89 when he was at the Whitney program his wife she was working at the Odeon she was so fucking beautiful. Now shes turned into a bit of a heifer. Yeah. Really put it on. She looks like a girl whos had too many kids. She was she was she was so fine she is she was so fine and Cheryl and I in the day would say like about Gavin like were gonna be really good friends with these people we know were going to be... well, yes, well he was on the outer edge, yeah... They were bitter. I dont know them anymore. Well, theyre fat. I dont really know she used to she used to work at she was like the hostess at the Odeon and Gavin and

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I and Cheryl and her would be at a big table and Cheryl and I would always so were gonna be really really tight with these people, you know? No no they didnt. They but but we never became tight with them because Gavin is always so reticent and so difficult. If Bruce Andrews wasnt no if Bruce and Sally werent there... Well, she always gives Bruce the wrong idea. I mean, the two, I think shes, you know, Bruce and her have something going on their own some really intense thing going on their own but... Bruce... But Bruce Bruce was tough. Yeah but yeah but Bruce is also not the easiest person to be intimate with. Hell give you lots of shit. Anyway. Oh, its shit just shit. Every stripe and color. So anyway when, you know, now its a big joke the first thing the two of them sit down... theyre always at dinner together... Bruce is really rough though. He cuts he cuts right to the bone its not a hes not a polite person. Oh, hes very hardcore. Hes a very hard core experimental writer. Very leftist politics. Great guy. Very probably my best friend, you know, my best male friend now in New York. Great great friend of mine. Yeah, you know, just a great guy. A lot of people dont like him. He loves you. He loves you. Just dont get on the wrong side of Bruce. I never want to be on Bruces wrong side. I mean, ew, yeah, oh... Thats what I feel but I know people who have been on the wrong side of Bruce and hes fearsome, yeah. Fearsome. Yeah, hes got a a mind, you know, hes got an intellect thatll, you know, just shred anything in sight. Hes hes hes incredibly, really bright. Anyway so her and Gavin. You know, what the heck, I mean Gavin Gavins not a nice person never has been yeah. Well, shes just so happy to have somebody after her. A man of some kind of substance. Thats a good question. Yeah. I never cared for him. Shes hot. Shes totally hot. I think shes so sexy. Really, I would feel the same way Gavin did, really, I

think shes really really sexy. Shes my kind of sexy. She is. Oh, you know, thats his problem. Its not her problem really, you know, I mean its not gonna nothings gonna... To resist it? Sure she is. Yes she is. Shes also a person with principles I mean shes got morals, really. Thats why I like her. No no no she really does. Im not worried about her. She would never fuck around with a married guy to my knowledge. Aw, what do I know? Dont dont spoil my view of her. Yeah. Well, shes a big flatterer. Well, shes just too insecure, yeah. Shes insecure about that stuff. I dont know, man, you know, when it comes down to it shes so fucking mean to these guys. I mean, shes so fucking brutal. Yeah, I dont I think I think shes a lesbian. I always have said this. I I to this moment I believe it. Thats probably like I like her. Thats probably why I find her hot. Yeah yeah. I I dont I I really think shes gay. I didnt know anybody at that party. I didnt anybody by face. Im sure I knew names but I didnt know anybody I mean just besides Jay and Meyer. Who else was there? I knew Jerry I knew Roberta I mean people I know, yeah. It really is I think so. Johns not that much older than we are but he he cultivates sort of older friends than he is. Hes what, 10 years older than we are? How old are you? Hes uh, what is John? About 40? I like John, man, hes a good guy. I really do, you know, throughout thick and think I I have plenty of reasons to think hes an asshole but I when it comes right down to it I like him. I I mean hes fun to hes a bright guy. Hes fun to go out to dinner with, hes smart, you know, hes really articulate. I cant stand his work. I think its the worst Ive ever seen. Horrible. But, yeah, you know, hes such hes such a good guy. I really, you know, I really... Cheryl and I went out to dinner with him we were really dreading going out to dinner with him we were like oh man should we cancel Cheryl had a stomachache. Im

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like Cheryl cancel. Cancel. She was like no we should and we had the best time. Hes such a good dude. Hes so bright, you know? You know, Im gonna go to his thing tomorrow night, you know, cuz Im just gonna have I mean might as well just stay uptown because Ive gotta get out of there at some point anyway. Make my escape to New Jersey so... What did you do all day? What did you do? Today was a lost day, man, for me. Well hit the da web thing and call it a night, huh? I think it should be kind of interesting, you know? I dont care for her which is why I didnt go to oh! I hate her work. Oh I hate it, oh I agree with you complete. Andreas like, oh I love it, but Andreas like a real sucker for hype, you know, shes shes real bad with that stuff. But I went to her show yesterday. And I think its yeah. I think that its real tired subject matter but it looks good. Right right right. You. Huh, its so good. Im glad hes the hell out of there. If I have to see another with no shirt on. If I have to see another guy with no shirt like I could give a fuck. Another blurry photo of a guy with no shirt. Do I really care? Beef is working for me tonight. What in the chicken? Chicken cartilage. The beef is the beef is good. We like that place on uh Lispenard. Its alright. Sure. I think its pretty good. I think the one on on Walk on West Broadway whatever that is Church I dont know. Thats lousy, yeah. Its gone way downhill it used to great. Yeah it used to be incredible. It used to be wonderful yeah. They did a thing on art and the Internet, you know, like that thing Cheryl did at the MOMA. I didnt want to go it but I I I dont know Im in that biz I should to... yeah of course not. I dont know if its gonna be so interesting. Have you hung out on the web at all? Ever? Yeah, well then dont go. Its really not not essential. Not required. Its not. Johns is kind of required. Grazie, yes. Are you working at that place anymore? Weve got to cc it. Weve got to cc it.

Im a daily ccer. Yeah but even so I take soup over there to hang out I mean. Its the only were place I can let Babette its the only place where I can let Babette run. She loves she loves the cc. She loves it there. Yeah yeah I work in the Cable Building and, you know, the dog can only run in that area, you know, but its the only area where she can... A boxer. Yeah. Shes so sweet. Shes 7 now. 7. 7 and a half, yeah. Yeah shes a good dog, Babette. No. What kind of dog like a Pomeranian or something. Yeah shes a great dog I mean shes like every everybody in the universe loves loves you know shes grown up everybody in the universe loves this dog, you know, shes really sort of extraordinary. Even Alix likes her. Thanks. And shes not a Yorkie. Yeah, you know... Shes shes gotten real white in her muzzle. Her muzzles almost all white now. Your dog? Hows Max. You pick it up or... ? Hey we had a nice talk that night with Steve Ellis, didnt we? Is that his name Steven Ellis? Is that his name Alix? Hes a nice guy. Bright. Yeah, I like him, really. Really a neat guy. I never really talked to him before. No no I do but where does he show now? I couldnt give a fuck but hes a nice guy anyway, you know. Had a good talk, you know. Had a... Yeah well he can talk the talk. Hes got a DiBennedettoesque kind of vocabulary cuz Steve can talk the talk thats for sure. I dont know. Is he? Does he still go out with Michelle? Hey yeah I want your air conditioner. Yeah. No I want you to give it to me. How much? Aww! Yeah but it like 6 years ohhhhh! Im glad youre around cause I put that fucking thing in for like the next the last 4 years, man! And I cut my hands and I bitched and I moaned and I told her... and I told... and I told her I mean you get me lifting things I refuse to lift anything. And Ive done favors for you. Were family, you know? Were family, you know, what can you say? One thing I hate doing is is is lifting. Alright.

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Give me a reduced price. I have no money. I have no money these days. Fuck them! What have you got? Yeah records. Yeah records. I dont think so. Sure. Yeah. I have an enor I have 5,000 records and 4,000 CDs. Im a deep addict. What do I have? A piece of shit. That way I hear the music I dont hear the system the the I dont hear the format. So my CDs sound as lousy as my LPs. And I can get the lousiest most scratched up LP cuz I never change the needle on my record player. So for 5 years its been wearing out the grooves but it always sounds it all sounds like music to me because I dont hear anything. I bought a 500 dollar like thing thats got like two cassettes, a tuner, a this a that and the other thing, you know, piece of shit thing you cant even buy them anymore its the worst its terrible. I got it when I was hanging out with Gary Simmons. Gary Simmons and I went and bought that thing. Its like 5 or 6 years old, you know, but but it allows me to play scratchy records and I dont know the difference between that and a CD. Oh yeah. Oh, its lousy but I like music so I I hear music I dont hear. Im no audiophile. I mean Im not interested. Yeah FMU. Were lo-fi. And I bring those records to the station. I play them. They skip all the time. And theyre horrible. Eh, at FMU, were lo-fi there, you know. So if a record skips, were FMU. What the fuck? Ive never done radio before, you know, everybodys a fucking... they dont like people that have done radio. They they they they encourage people that have never done this shit before. You dont sound like a DJ, you sound like a person. Lots of ums and uhs. When was the last time you heard me? He encouraged me to say um in the beginning. He say yeah, you know, cuz I was reading something. Throw that away and just, you know. Ken. Ken Freedman. The station manager, yeah. They encourage you to just swing it you know? Yeah, Im a lot more confident

too. I know I totally know what Im doing there now. I never knew what I was doing I fucked... Oh now they throw you... Oh no, you go on youre like you miss your cues you fuck up left and right. Youre on in the middle of the night, you know, nobody cares. I get a few calls. Very few people call in the middle of the night, you know, most people kick back. Yeah, you know, people listen people listen. You know I mean its a good thing youre broadcasting in the metropolitan area. Theres always gonna be people listening whatever hour theres several thousand people listening at any time. At least, right, if people are calling in thats one thing. But but I dont care I never give out the phone number. I my shows called Unpopular Music so if people call and they complain Im like so why you complaining? The name of the show is Unpopular Music. Youre not supposed to like it. Oh really? This guy calls up last week hes like, hey man, can you play some Velvet Underground? Im like no. Hes, man, but Im getting evicted from my apartment and I like fuckin need some Velvet... click... youre out of here, you know. I just just hang up on these people, you know? It fine its a trip cuz Im Im just like Im a major for the last week I mean, you know, any spare income I have is spent on on on vinyl and discs. Saturday I went to Tower Records the outlet I spent about 70 bucks. Sunday I spent another 20. Friday night I, you know, I Friday I probably spent another 20. No, Im not really into tapes. Tapes are, no. Tapes are a little more, no, vinyl or CDs. Rarely do I get tapes. What the fuck? You get to share your... well lets see you get to share your obsession more than your... yeah, I mean... OK I want one. Come by. I like live there. I like live in your office. Yeah, you know, if its totally I mean is it really like, is it like stand up? And is there an audience laughing? I told you I dont play laugh tracks. Yeah well, it could be good. I just bought this

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on Saturday I just bought this like CD of Peter Seller, you know, Pink Panther, Doctor Strangelove Peter Sellers, not the new one? and its like like a CD of his radio and and and audio work. Its fucking amazing! Well I understand that. I understand that and I I, you know, I mean its its just so good. I mean Ill Ill mine that sucker. Yeah. He was really interesting. No no. Yeah the young Peter Sellers. Did Cheryl tell you we went to see Rent? Yeah. What a piece of shit! Oh my god! You knew Jonathan Larson? No no no we knew him too. He was Allan McCollums nephew. We knew him from the Moondance. Allan introduced me to him at the Moondance. They would send us he used to send us things for his show like Tick Tick Boom and Cheryl and I refused to go because he plastered the fucking city with these Tick Tick Boom posters. I have to say, man, that show was such a fucking piece of shit. It was like like the worst of like like it was like the worst of like Broadway musicals like cheesy cheesy Broadway musicals. Like really bad. Like people describe it as the Hair for the nineties and maybe if I was 10 years old I would think that it was groovy the way we thought Hair was groovy. I know you listen to Hair and you like it because its nostalgic but if you listened to it for the first time at your age youd think this is a crock of shit I know the Counterculture and this means nothing this does not represent the Counterculture at all in any way, shape, or form. So, this is the Broadway version of like of like the East Village life. And its its such a fucking rip-off its maybe well done for the genre but I but I have very high standards for the genre because Im like a Kurt Weill fanatic and Kurt Weill added dissonance and added all sorts of interesting things with modern music and and and Larson never, you know, in terms of music there was no experimentation. I mean there was nothing... Hah! I have nothing against the genre, you

know, like I said Weill did did Im an opera freak so that I see musical theater being an extension of opera. I dont have a problem with musical theater but this was just at this point in time to do something so conventional and so, you know, traditional it was really just a like bomb, you know, I mean I mean it was so bad I... Testing. Testing. Here we go again. Side B. So Bill what was your connection to Jonathan? Yeah yeah. Regardless of of of of of you had no idea that the play was going to be any kind of smash. Good. No no no, its a good comment. Its an interesting thought. Oh yeah. Yeah. What is this groovy surf music were listening to here? Yeah. Yo whats up with the twenties, man? These fucking cash machines. Oh. Alright. So you guys are just gonna crash skip it, yeah. So what did you think of that review of Cheryls? I thought it was good. Yeah I thought it was good because it brought out it brought out like what Cheryls getting at there. Which is what is Cheryl nothing but anxious, you know, her whole trip is anxious. I thought it was I thought it was good, you know, it wasnt a a fluff piece. It was kind of, you know, it was edgy, you know, the piece is edgy pretty edgy. The videos are edgy. It closes Saturday. I mean Bill Bill wrote a nice thing in, you know, the Time Out, yeah, cause hes, you know, last week. Yeah. Well, I dont know what hes gonna do. Hes talking about moving to Santa Fe or Washington A.C. Yeah. Yeah. Eric wants to go to the Whitney Program. Sure. Im doing Im going to do the flier for her for her show Im gonna do the poster for it. Oh, you did see it but its gotten its gotten immeasurably better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shes shes really gotten much better since you saw her about 4 years ago. Yeah. Silvers. Its in June. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Ill I mean and Im going to do the poster shes great. Do you know her work? Shes this really nice person whose work has gotten much better than it was much better. Last years

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show was like tremendous I thought, really good, yeah. P.S. 122. Shes really finding her voice now its neat its neat to see. So yeah, well go to that. No, but you said you had seen it before, yeah. Yeah. Do you see Suzanne around? Thank god. What? Oh yeah? On the river there? You you take the same elevator as they do? What floor? And youre on the West side. Can you see the river from your place? She was our teacher at RISD. You know the whole story, huh? Yeah. Theyre theyre theyre lost. Theyre nice people but theyre really lost. Yeah. Theyre theyre, problematic, yeah. Yeah yeah. I got to find out where this thing is. 22nd between 5th and 6th. That sounds like the Flatiron Building, huh? Im gonna take the N or R. You guys walking in that direction? Yeah. No no no no no no. Believe me I dont I dont go to things I dont go to things... Thanks for dinner you guys, it was nice. So summer in France. Better polish up on the French. Speech of Cheryl, yeah. This was really nice, man. So youre heading out to the Hamptons. The fork the North fork. So what are you gonna do about the beach. I know youre a big beach person. You guys I love this ad. Its my favorite ad ever. Yeah. Look at these guys that they got for the ad, man. Look at this fucking guy! This is good. Yeah, no, this is good. My dad is a, uh, sort of a sort of a disciple of the Mens movement so this one hits me right a home. You guys gonna walk down Canal or are you cabbing it? OK, so Im gonna walk down this way. I think its right here. Good to see you. See you soon. It was lets the four of us do it soon. What else is going on? Which is not which Im not interested in, yeah. I saw his thing at White Columns it was bad. Really bad. Where is Richard? Where is Richard in that work? He cops a nice style, but wheres Richard? Wheres the artist? Its an appropriation. Wheres the artist? Bye! Testing. Testing. Here we go again. Up to da web. On the way we

go. Testing. Testing. How we doin? How we doin? Good. Hey. Hi John, Kenny, Cheryls wife, uh, Cheryls wife... Shes coming. Congratulations I heard you guys did amazing job. She loves it. Are you leaving? Yeah, OK, you know she gave me the thing on disc I couldnt load on my machine but I guess its a CGI thing... OK, congratulations. Shes thrilled. Shes thrilled. See you soon, OK? Hey. Hi. No I just walked in. Hi Warren. Kenny. I I filed for an extension. Oh I thought my accountant files for an extension for me every year. We we do it automatically. I tell him to file for an extension. Are you guys are you both leaving? Warren you must have a homepage now. You dont? I mean I thought... Yeah I do. With you with your I remember your Mac was filled up with like one megabyte of space left on it. Well wait a minute. Are you still on the same one that I was I saw you on your place there? Right. Right. Youre getting a 7200. Are you are you hanging on the web a little bit? Yeah, I love it. On uh uh Broadway and Houston. Im still there. Might have. Could have been. Could have been. No Im hanging mostly here. On the web, yeah. Well... hi babe! I totally owe you. I feel like Ill buy you a drink. I was gonna buy her a drink. Well let me pour you a glass of wine. You know Warren? Vivian Warren. So, thank you thank you. You get my email today? She got me a job. Its interesting, you know? Its this this really kind of nice person from NYU law. Shes really cool. She sounded really weird but I liked her I liked her. This law this thing thats not really interesting to me but its a job. Im gonna make her place look good, huh? Yeah. Yeah its what Ive been doing lately. Viv was nice enough to throw this crumb my way. I thought you have a good I thought you have a good job. No I thought you I thought you yeah it is. Right its a good job here. Shes designed the whole da web interface. Shes the star designer. So, can I

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buy you a drink? Is that right? How was the show? Was it filled? Is this radical? Yeah man I had to go to I had to go to a cocktail party. I missed the whole I missed the whole show. I missed the whole show. No no I wasnt I was at an artists studio yeah. We had to do we had to do this thing, yeah. So, what have you done lately? Have you got anything cool to show us? Sure. Where do you work? Wheres your place? This is your machine? Its groovy. Yeah. Yeah, I was just hanging out there. Wow, this is nice! You know, god, its so much nicer in print isnt it? Not you not you. Oh thats great. It wasnt it wasnt you. It wasnt wasnt you. Its just. What we can do on the web is so. Ive got a... This is gorgeous. Is this done? Is this a done deal? That one. Andrea, can I have this? Its gorgeous. You guys did a great job. I did she doesnt want. She showed me showed me its gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah Cheryls gonna put a piece up. Yeah she said it looks really... Yeah shell be here. Yeah. Real absinthe. At an absinthe party. My friend David made it, yeah. Out of wormwood. My friend brewed it home brewed it, yeah. Out of wormwood. Wormwood powder from an apothecary herbal apothecary... Oh really? You can actually buy the raw materials and put it together. Um, Im sure the powder is yeah. Oh its horrible, its wretched. I couldnt drink it, yeah. I guess the buzz might have been the attraction but we didnt catch any of that. It was a alcoholic beverage. I couldnt drink it. It was horrible. Yeah every every year he brews up a batch and he says each it gets better and it just gets worse. Uh, its completely different actually. Not its not its nothing like Pernod but its the same color as Pernod, yeah. Every year I keep hoping its just gonna get better and better but its just just not its really awful and a friend of mine has a birthday party, you know, and he brews the stuff every year. You must have had that absinthe on your travels. No but in Spain you

can get it. Huh. But Warren Im doing a radio show a late night radio show on WFMU these day and Im doing all twentieth century classical pretty much and I remember you were an Alban Berg you were studying Alban Berg last time I was over. Am I correct? Yeah I remember you were actually really into really into the Viennese the Viennese scene. Yeah. Well, its mostly experiment, you know, experimental. Im on in the middle of the night. The middle of the night. 2 to 6 Tuesday nights Wednesday mornings. If youre up late late nights... but its yeah. Yeah well were. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But, uh, yeah. I think youd enjoy the show. Yeah. Well, weve got a great Internet thing at the radio station. They give us all homepages there so we can fill them up with all sorts of stuff. Its WFMU dot org. Yeah, Im on Im on the homepage, yeah, just go to the DJs homepages. I recall you were listening to twentieth century classical... yeah we were discussing it a little bit and you were telling me about like what you were listening to and I was like with all open ears and about a year or two later it really began to kick in in a serious way. Yeah, Im real hooked on on this stuff, yeah. I just mix it all up together. Sometimes I lean more towards the pop but, you know, usually its its its generally exper, you know, quarter tone music Im really interested... toward pop stuff, more experimental pop stuff. Yeah yeah yeah. Sometimes Ill, you know, throw in everything from Kurt Weill to, you know, the Bang On A Can guys to the Viennese school. Yeah yeah Harry Partch, Schoenberg. Im sure Im throwing pop in as well. Yeah interesting pop music in with it yeah whatever we happen to have out there. So what have you been doing? P.S. 1 is gone. Right cause Cheryl would love to have that job back that she had out there. So what are you doing? What are you reading and writing? Im very important. Thank you. No you can have mine. Its beautiful.

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Yeah, I think its really great. What are you drinking? Which one? What would you like? What can I do for you? Its so bizarre to be... yeah, I wanna pick up my mail, I dont know. No, Im trying to figure out why this is a Mac but its not a Mac cuz its a Power Computing. Come come pull up a chair. Come, lets... Wanna pick your mail up on panix? Can I pick your mail up also? There, Im closing it. Oh, no wonder why it was... panix, oh. This is so bizarre. Its acting like a PC but its a Mac. Its so bizarre. No no no its different. It feels so different than a Mac. Well, lets see for one, everythings like a little bit thinner and a little bit just its a little bit different no its interesting. Its not bad. No no no. Its totally different from my Power PC. Hi Im Kenny. How are you doing? Show me something good. Im not a or no Ive been drinking all day but show me something great. Show me something like completely fucking Ill love. Just show me, Viv Viv Viv. Have you seen nd org? You wanna see a pretty site? You wanna see a really pretty site? OK I I think the site is good I think its nd dot org. I liked I liked no no. Well, what could it be? Why is there why is it highlighting yellow? I like it. How do you do it? How did you set that up? I like it. Whats Aaron? Oh I have no now thats why this is all different. Oh yeah, let me see. Its not really its not really Copland. Wanna start it? Wanna show me? I didnt know that. Its really cool. Yeah. But thats not so but thats not not enough to sell me on it. Whats great about it? What do we love about it? Oh, thats nice. See I like it. Yeah. No wonder its feeling a little bit different. I thought it was your Power PC. This is gold... Right right right OK I right OK OK, but is that all? Everythings a little bit thinner and a little bit but youre only running 7 2. Are you gonna put 7 3 on? Its a little dif it, you know, it feels a little different. And show me something fabulous. What do you love? If theres anything

to love, what do you love? This is good. I think Ive got some, yeah. What happened to Shockwave stuff. I did one shocked thing and it was such a waste of time. You guys are on a T1 so its no big deal but. ISDN yeah. Yeah, but still, I mean on a 28 8 a Shockwave is fucking insanely its cool but, you know, its like... its great no yeah no it is, youre right youre right. What do we love can we go to some VRML stuff? OK. Can you mail me this URL? No no why dont you just mail it through Netscape through Netscape mail? No? Oh, I collect all my mail through Netscape. I dont even use Eudora anymore I use Netscape. If you just if you just just put a popserver you can get a... put your pop stuff in then you can start collecting your mail then when you get the WAC list every URL is a link on the, you know, every any. Its popserver then mailhost panix dot com. Popserver dot panix dot com. Popserver panix no just popserver panix dot com. Why do we have two oh one here? So do you work here also? Im Andreas friend. I got a job. Hello? Hey Cher. No Im hanging out. OK. and then put mailhost panix dot com. Put a dot server dot yeah yeah Im Im here. Im just hanging out looking at the web. Im here. Bye and then mailhost panix dot com. Yeah. Weve got a little delay happening. No I uh could be mailhost popserver. Yeah try that. Then try mailhost, no no, popserver panix dot com. Get the mailhost out of there. OK now put mailhost dot panix dot com and then put your your your login name. No. No just put your login name. What do you login as? Not at not your, yeah OK, now put mailhost. Oh outgoing mail you have to put mailhost dot panix dot com. OK now go OK. Now OK, oh what happened? Why did that just erase? Why did yours just erase? Mail preferences. You just it just yeah it just replied. You see youre not you dont have mail at. No no its good. Youll like it. I dont use. Dot panix dot com but youve got to fix your

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popserver. And then go OK. Just do OK. Right. Right now just do OK. OK. Now go check your mail. See if youve got any mail. Do you have any mail? Yeah now just throw your password in. It should remember it. This is terrific. See, every time a WAC list comes up every http or URL is its live so you can just like if you see the WAC list you can just go look at everybodys pages, yeah. No its really fun. Thats the mail. I dont use Eudora anymore. No yeah. Why dont you just have it remove it from the server? Every time. Whats going on here? Is it your machine? I dont know whats whats going on. Andrea how come Viv cant pick her mail up here. OK, here we go. Sending along information. Well. Im telling everybody. Oh well, Ill just try once more and well get on with it. Fuck it. Hi. Hi. Andrea show me something you adore. Viv I think your machines fucked and your Netscape needs to restart. Andrea where do you sit? Wheres your spot. I I want to see it though. I want your view of things. Oh this is this is the computer that crashes constantly with the Allan McCollum, uh... Its what? Prada. How does she make it? I love your... oh this is nice! Very nice! But this is the this thing keeps crashing. Cheryls coming in 10 minutes. Yes. OK, Viv, lets go. Lets go. Did you have to reboot? Do you sit on that thing all day? No no no no Ive Ive done this long before it was fashionable. Shes trouble. Why is this so, damn! OK. I have a Radius I have a Radius 17 inch. OK. Right right Im yeah. Itll work now. So what do you what do you do here? In in in in what capacity are you? Really? What does she do? Seriously? What does that mean? Who are who are some of the other characters who work here? No no. Total New York are they like Total New York are they like... ? Andrea must have fucked around with the guy with the 24 year old guys. With which one? With another one? How how old is this one? What is this? I have this thing too. What is

that? Oh, look it comes with your with your scanner or something? I always wonder I always wondered what that was. This is so funny how different this system feels. Um, I like it. Right now its comfortable. I dont know if I can hang all day here. Thats good. I wanna get I wanna get the soundtrack from Babe. Did you see Babe? And I would put like baaah ram ewe on my site. Its really good. Now check your mail. Go ahead try the mail thing. Go right there. Go ahead. I want to see if it works. You gonna have to put your put your ID in. This is good. Aw. It want it I really want it to work. I love it. I always want I really I mean I really I adore it. Neat. You have 85 messages, you nerd! Why do you have 85 messages? Oy vey iz mir! Youve got so many messages! I never have 85! God, Im jealous! Youre so cool you have 85 messages! Christ almighty! I hope this is removing them from your server. You want it? You want it? She has 85 messages! Shes so popular. What do you think of that? Vivs so hot I cant believe it! Vivs got 85 Im jealous I mean. I log in Ive got 35 occasionally but 85! She is here it comes, look! Here they all are! Whose are these? Go on. Whose are these? Oh, youre so cool. Pick up a WAC. Pick up a WAC thing go ahead. Pick up a WAC thing and now scroll down Andrea Im showing this to you. Scroll down. Just scroll. Scroll scroll scroll. There it is. Its a its a URL so you can always you see everybodys pages its so cool. Naw naw naw this is bitchin, man, yeah it really does it really does work. But of course its not coming up right now. Go on. Try another one. Try another one. This guys out hes really out. Go on. Just try that one. There you go. Youre on. Youre on pal. You can catch everybodys pages. I love that. Thats the way I read the WAC list I go I dont even read the messages Andrea I just look for the links now. I got shit from everybody, yeah. Yeah, no, I just steal things from people now. All I do is all I do is

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roll around and steal everybodys pages. No. We are we are going. Thursday night we are going, yeah. See, I mean, Viv isnt this isnt this bitchin? Oh look at this look at this big piece of tacky shit. Sorry. Isnt it? I have no opinion. Look at this one. See I dont even read the list anymore I just look at peoples tacky sites. Yeah, I dont like it anymore. So it should have yeah thats nice. It should have shown up tho. It it should have shown up. No no no no but everybody but all these hot shit quote hot shit designers are showing up. No more cutting and pasting for you, girlfriend. See, oh... god you really pound on this thing, dont you? Youve been to oh yeah go on. Youre missing it. Youre missing it. Tacky. Tacky. Ugly. See Andrea, this is this is totally totally amazing, isnt it? Well whats whats you have to put whats your popserver? Are panix? Oh, probably its... Whats Eudora... I got I got drunk at one oclock... Try that one. Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. Exactly. How can these people put a... Whats the problem? This stuff has line notes in it, oh, there you are. Ew, lets see. That was quick. That wasnt right. That wasnt right. No you... Oh you have your set to open with BBEdit. Thats interesting. Simple text opens up mine. I need a I need a copy all I have is BBEdit lite. I need a copy of real BBEdit. Wanna give me one? What? Andrea has it? Will you make me a copy of BBEdit please? Do it now, yeah. Oh, thats nice. Thats nice. I use BBEdit lite. I use lite, yeah. Ew, Microsoft Microsoft. Look at youre like me look at you just cruising at looking at these different, uh... Lets read your mail. Lets go through your mail. Oh I do. I do too. What? Yeah, its so good to be here. No I was I I went out with Alix and her boy. Yeah after John Newmans party. Yeah. Oh, we love him. Oh, hes terrific. Oh, I like him. Yeah. Tacky. Look at this thing. Look at this thing. What a piece of shit. Is this a piece of shit or what? OK. Look shes go it. Shes got it

downstairs. NYMUG? Really? Read that one! Read that one! Oh now wow youve got two. Oh look! Rad! Look at what that did. Told you where you at. Rock and roll! Oh, how can you keep up with it? I delete them every day. I read one every 3 days. No to delete just go... You have to for Netscape to delete you have to hit the command and delete at the same time. Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Like that. Knock it out. Lets see some of your personal mail go ahead! What do you think? Dont you want to read her mail? Just personal, not the very personal. No, of course not. Oh what do you have your your underline set off on this thing? How do you set that? Like this? Where is that you got? Good good. You can check your mail every 10 minutes with the Eud with the Netscape mail. You can set it to check every 10 minutes. Its insane, yeah. Yeah. Its cool I dont know... its go servers check mail every 10 minutes. Its fun, yeah. 85 messages she has and she wont show us any of the hot stuff. Andrea, can you get me a copy right now of the of the real BBEdit? Do you have a just Stuffit or something or do you have a uh a uh Zip disc a Zip? I love that I love that. I know I get so many from my jobs. Yeah, itll get me another disc. You gotta go? Itll fit it on this. So OK it shows you it shows you this it shows you the disc I mean this is, you know, where did you get this the Copland simulation? It it great? Is it great? Aaron? Do we love it? Oh give it yeah. OK talking OK. No no no problem Ive Ive seen em. Yeah I want it. I I mean I was actually gonna buy it and then I figured somebodys got to give it to me. Look at this! 7 5 4 beta? You dont have BB on this? Yes you do. You have it on this machine. You have BBEdit on this machine. Dont you? Im Kenny. How you doing? Kenny G. from New York. Ive lived here Ive lived here my whole life. No, Im from Long Island and Ive been here Ive been in Manhattan for... no like 20 minutes

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from here I lived 20 minutes from here. Oh, its all the same. Cheryl, Hi! Cheryl, you met Viv, right? Cheryls got a piece coming on your your site soon. John John just... no response, Viv. Have a seat. Lets go shopping. Hammacher Schlemmer. I want that mirror for the I want that mirror for the for the uh, for the uh, yeah I want one of those. No no no but Id love to shave in the shower every morning I would I would adore that. Theyre ugly but Id love to shave in the shower every morning so I dont really care. Lets see. Lets see... water resistant cordless phone, wake up alarm clock, hot dog cooker... Have I? No, I use a regular I use an acoustic shaver. Non electric. Cheryl, how was your class. Oh, my god. I went out to, uh... desktop. Viv. She got me my NYU gig. I dont think theyre I dont think its happening. So then I went out to dinner with Alix and her guy. Her guy is great. Hes really nice. I wonder what Granary looks like. I built I built this site I wanna see what it looks like on another machine. They sell uh they they make artists artists books. I dont like the colors. Youve got 256 colors set. It looks so puny. Shes got 256 colors set. Icon, yeah. Cheryl was in Berlin. Cheryl did an art show there. Hanging out. Just hanging out. How is it? Who is it? Were having fun. This is fun. Got it. Thank you. Thank you. Viv so show me Viv so show me something you are doing. Lets lets go. Were were looking. Why do you have 256 colors set on this monitor? Where can I find this? Tomorrow? So show me something great. Are you gonna put this is? Is it done? Fantastic. Im gonna give you SiteMill. I love it. Its PageMill. Its PageMill deluxe. Remember I was telling you the other night? Its wonderful. Ill give SiteMill. Want Word 6 0... 6 0 1? Oh yeah, I feel it on this machine. So show me something great. Cheryl move over move over to this one. Viv is gonna show me something terrific. This one does. Oh I see the way

the windows kind of twist around a little bit. Oh, what is this? Oh, its the quick windowshade oh OK. I have windowshade if I double click on it but I dont have I dont have this thing. Yeah they all are part of Aaron. What? Its Gregs Buttons. Fantastic. Show me something. Show me something great. Lets go. I need to learn things from you cause youre so cool. Yeah yeah. Sure show me anyways, what the fuck. Sure I keep one one on. I steal things from them. I steal everything. No I... nice, wow! Ah! I always use dont you use this? I have no idea. That was only because because I told that I was important. I I was lying completely. Im just a leech here on on Vivian on Vivian. Congratulations on the show tonight. Show me a a beauty. Youre betraying. Ive seen this Ive been on this site, yeah. No but the basic interface is the same. You like water towers? So, what do you think? Did you guys make the right move or not? Did you ever go to every go to Switchboard? Its like like find someone like its one of those like you put in the name of an old lover and where they live and they come up with a phone number and an address? Do you know it? Its not its not interesting but its, uh, its a good thing to have. Yeah its good, its good. 6 4 yeah you do have it OK. No no no I actually got it from WFMU. Yeah, I got from the the list Im on at my at my radio station. Are you an FMU listener? Im a DJ on there. Can you get I see youre not set to 91 point 1 so. Fuck Andrea now. What is this what is this now? What is what do we have its Flux like Fluxus? This is what they do. Its too too groovy for me. She me something terrific. Show me something terrific. What art? Yeah, I make, you know, I dont I like the line. You know, the line looks good. You know that have you have you downloaded Microsoft Internet Explorer? Stop for a second. Stop Ill show you. Do you know do you know on the TT command it does not it does not. Oh, I downloaded

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it because I design web sites and I realize that most people are probably going to be viewing it on Internet Explorer. Do you know that do you know that TT is is is no no it comes up at the heading of one? Everything all the TT on the web all the groovy design sites come up with this huge... you should download it. You should see your sites you need to see your sites through Internet Explorer. You really should just I mean I dont use it often its not nearly as interesting as... nah as Netscape but... I like TT but once I realized that Explorer isnt reading it Im beginning to rethink it. Yeah. I was trained in CAD in AutoCad. No no. It was what I did it was what I did for money well, yeah, before the architects were all out of work I had to retrain right I told you that yeah. I for years I made all of Allan McCollums objects, you know, the artist, right? I I was a... On Greene Street? On White. Yeah yeah yeah. He he was a really great guy, I mean, it was really good to work for. Im sorry the economy bottomed out on both of us. Cause I made all of those... oh hes broke I mean, right here we are, no its true hes not doing well either. No I lost my job I lost my job in 91. I, you know, I had to retrain for AutoCad. Andrea told me you were a Whitney a Whitney Program person? Are you there now? Or when were you there? So, who was some of the people you were with who I know cuz a lot of my friends went. Were you with Rikrit and... ? Yeah. Oh, I love Moira. Do you see Moira. I really like her. I have a great piece of hers. She worked for Allan for years. Thats how I knew Allan thats how I knew Moira through Allan. No. Yeah, I know I know. I know Magda I know. I know everybody Im really sick of having... yeah. So any so who else were you with Moira. Tell me some more. Lets gossip a little bit. Yeah, whose name I remember and I probably knew her at one time. Yeah. Of course I know Gavin and his and his wife. His groovy wife. She was so. She

used to be so beautiful. Do you remember? Do you remember her? No no no no. Not at all. Have you seen her? No I I no. Oh... Sure I, yes I do remember yes yes. Who else who else were you there with? Tell me some more. Who I dont know. Oh Simon was in with you guys OK. Simon worked for Allan also. Thats fine. Hes really nice. He worked for Allan. No, were having fun. Vivians showing me the web. Vivians showing me everything. Do you like Altavista the best? Do you like it better than all the others? You have to put a plus in or you... yeah. It was bad. Thats nice of you. Its fun though. Listen, would you send me this URL please? No no no I dont want to mail a frame. Wait wait wait a minute no no. Hold on hold on hold on. OK instead of mail document. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No of course not. All the people I want to know I know their addresses anyway. What what are you using for animations here? What are you guys using? You youre just making the animations and you drag them right in and it and it writes a script for you. Yeah I yeah right I got that one right. And so you just make the different frames and lets go... Thats cool. I have the same monitor but you dont have the option for millions of colors on yours. Yeah I did. It works much fast for me. I have the same exact monitor. It should wheres your... Why do you have your resolution set at a...? You know what? It looks richer. It looks richer to me. It looked a little bit anemic before. Well I dont understand what you mean by more. Oh I guess. Go ahead show me show me again. So you go to options. You have 7 5 3 on here. I dont understand you told me you were running 7 5 2. I see its the... so what is that? Yeah yeah. Its sort of bigger. I like to look at things huge. Isnt that the weird the weird thing about the the, uh, web? Everybodys seeing everything so fucking different. Yeah. It doesnt it doesnt bother me. So now youre seeing things underlined, huh?

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Download for a sample. Is it good? Yeah Ive seen it. Whats this here. Is it the same? To go back. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! So sorry. You got you got it. OK, youre youre clean. Of course I did. Oh, weve been drinking all day. Viv Viv Viv. Watch. Get info press down and go back in frame. Back in frame. Forward in frame. I was so excited. I got your WAC list on the on the Netscape now. Its not my business. Its Brads fault. It has nothing to do with me. There you go. There you go. This is something huge. What do we like? Lets go oh its lets see. Its so quick on that on that its great. What do you have an ISDN? Its you dont see what most people see this is why... Yeah, you see this is a problem. No no no. As a designer, see, you should on a on a 14 4 modem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah right OK. Its just an MCAD MCAD trans trans transfer. You will think of me. You will think of me. Im having so much fun. Bye guys, Im staying! I want the ISDN! I want the ISDN! No no no no no. I dont show up in daylight. I like your place. I like your area. Your fucking thing that crashes all the time. The rolls you know the rolls are something else here Andrea. The rolls are unbelievable. Do you work here too? Yeah. Did you work did you do this here? Where is it? Where is it? Is it coming on... Its really a nice poster, isnt it? I dont know. I dont understand it but I like it. Who? Oh, stop. Oh, what are you guys doing? I dont know. Were getting out. Were getting out. Tell me what youre doing. OK. Oh. Im tired. Ive got an appointment at 9:00 tomorrow. What time do you have to be in? What time do you have to be in tomorrow. But well Cybersuds it on Thursday night? Wanna go? Where are we going? Where are we going? Yeah. Out of the rain. What do you say? What do you say? Where is it? What time? What time? Alright. Ah, well all go. Viv. See you at suds on Thursday night. Thank you very much. Thanks again. Ill

see you Thursday, OK? Hey Andrea! Andrea! Did you get all all the gay addresses I sent you? Where does it do that? Oh right they had the thing, right. Great. So youre just visiting here. I dont have a pen, no. Really ask Cheryl. Oh. We can get it from Benjamin and Andrea. Bye. Bye bye... Thompson St... Having dinner with Alix and... oh we went to Pho Pasteur... The food there is so bad. You really hate the food. Oh um... not much, huh. Wheres Betsy girl? Shes just staying there oh well. Well watch them all week next week what the heck, huh? Yeah. Oh. They have a nice place up there da web. I like Viv. Shes really nice. Yeah well, you know, she got me that job and, you know, shes just nice and I was, you know, Cheryl, I was teaching those people things that they had no idea about. Its true. I showed her like 5 things she didnt know. You know? No, seriously. Things that are are, you know, completely new. Its funny, isnt it? Yeah they were I mean this guy is a computer science guy. Yeah go just go around the park to Thompson and just and and go straight down. OK, were gonna go to Thompson and Prince instead. Yeah, please. Yeah. We gotta get some food. Alright? Thanks. Oh, god. Well, this has been the longest day ever. I started at 9 a.m. with John Lee. I was up at 7. I had to pick up the dry cleaning, I had to shower, you know, by the by the time I did all the things I needed to do. Yeah, you were zonked when I left. I mean, you know, Marjorie, you know and god it was like I had to keep drinking all day. No no no no like when we hit Johns I was really out of it. Once I started drinking again I was fine. I never stopped. No, Im not drunk. Actually, Im not drunk at all. But I had to keep drinking to sort of keep from crashing. Its just one those days. I dont have too many. I dont have too many of them. No and Im not, you know, and Im not drunk but if I didnt keep drinking I would have just zonked completely. I was

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just I was just showing her how to do things. Certain things she didnt know. You know... shes like the interface designer, whatever that means. Shes really nice. So, Johns wasnt much fun. John Newman. We didnt really know anybody there. Yeah I like Alixs boyfriend is great. Hes so nice. Hes just really cool. Hes really really nice and really normal and really sweet and um interesting. Hes terrific, yeah. Hes just terrific, really. Yeah, no I like this guy. No, I mean, we had a nice dinner the 3 of us. Ill play you the tape if you want. I got the tapes, honey. I got all the tapes. I went through like like 3 tapes today. I think Im gonna, uh, go through a lot of these tapes this week. Oh, look at the tree blossoming. God, the trees are coming so late this year. Isnt it usually the beginning of April you get the cherry blossoms? Ken sent me an email and said that Harry took his first bike ride on Sunday. No no I guess he said I dont know what that meant. Maybe maybe Harry pedaled? OK, yeah, just the other side. This is this is good. Thank you. What does that mean? He took him for a spin? I got it. I got it, honey. I got money. Thank you. OK. Bye. Hey. Cheryl, you always hate the soup here. Every time you you pick up the soup here you you detest it. Didja hear that? This lady goes you got Doritos? And the guys says no she said oh yeah I forgot. This is SoHo. Thats pretty good. That was pretty good. I thought Benjamin seems nice. Is he nice? Yeah, hes fun. Yep. Did you like seeing Hay today? Is he cute? Hes no Babette, is he? Im so glad Im finished with Schachter. Um, he just wanted his materials back and I was glad to give it to him. Oh god, I am so exhausted. This has been a helluva day. Yeah. Yeah. So Alixs boyfriend is OK. I could really see hanging out with this guy. Hes a nice guy. You know? No problem there. Hes nice. Hes mellow. Hes really good. They did. They had a chill out weekend so they said. Its biodegradable. Its like

the do in India. They have streetsweepers. Was Jerry nice at Johns tonight? A little schitzy, huh? She did. She walked in she was really beat. She was nice. She was like Ive been writing all day yeah hes right. I dont know. Is that not a good thing to say? Really? Yeah. I dont know. Its a fact. I dont know why do they bother. I think it looks good with graffiti dont you? I know. You know and they painted it black itd get graffiti also. Here you are. The rest is junk mail. Oh is that... Kitchen performances. What? Great. She wants us to come to Athens on the 13th and leave on the 21st. Cool. Yay. Thats right shes talking about your catalog and concerning that. Cool. Thats gonna be so much fun, isnt it? Alright, Cheryl. Alright! Its gonna be really nice. Yay. I got a big check from ASCAP. 3 dollah and 40 cent. Whew! Thrills. Your soups burning. Ive been known to be an art criticizer myself. Yeah, I feel really scummy. Im gonna shower. Do you mind? Good night, monkey face. Good night, monkey face. I love you.

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Go to sleep. Just do you want to sleep? Huh? No? Its early. I have to work at 9. Testing. How you doin? Alright. Alright. Yeah. Nope. Nope. Naw. Definitely not. I dont remember. It was OK. It was forgettable, I think. Ive already forgotten. Well, well find out where we are or were. Yeah where are you...? Oh. If we can get it done, sure. Let me just look and see what weve got here. OK now this you was OK, right. This we want to be yellow. You want it in yellow. I dont know why were not getting this image. I think its been lost. Im gonna hafta. Its not reading right, oh god. We sort of fixed up the first things. Im a bit slow, Im just waking up. OK is that in the right order then? This goes to this? Yeah. Different text. No we yeah well no right. Were gonna fix that. Is this correct now? It goes from the ladies on third to interest. And where does this go? OK. Thats gonna be your title. OK? OK. OK. Not there. So, let me just do something then. OK reload this. OK so Connie tell me how everything flowing. There to there. There to there. Now its in its in the document, um, let me open that thing again. I dont know why its not showing up. There must be something else there. I dont think those lines are working that way. You want me to draw over? OK. That... OK. Yeah. There we go. Hows that? OK. I dont I dont know why that wasnt showing up but its... Its probably its probably gonna look pretty crummy if we do, yeah. We can try it but its gonna look pretty lousy. Why dont we come back to that? Why dont we just try to move forward. OK so, um, OK. The last image we were at was the one before that was this. These are great thanks? These are great Connie, thanks. Theyre lovely. I dont know, you know, strawberries are usually so lousy. Yeah. Good one. Uh, well be doing it. So, what have you got next? Uh huh. Whats next? Which one? Yeah. Lets see. OK. Find out where we are here. OK. And we want... Give it a shot for the hell of it. OK. It should be kind of sort of closer to the feeling of this one, right? OK. In terms of size. Its harder to pick up where we left off, um. Forget that there. OK this is what we were looking at. So, lets just use the top half of this again, huh? OK so here we go again now. You want the type about this size? Well, were never gonna obviously were never gonna fit it. We may have make make the text smaller? Or just fit those? Im talking about this line. OK. Where do you wanna break things then? There but Im talking about the line the line across cause it has to smaller to fit across the sheet. Yeah so I think we have to like break after women. So. Yeah. Its its its gonna be its just gonna be too, uh, difficult. Alright, so, Ill tell you what. Why dont you... yeah, I think so. I dont know, I thought it was. Try it again. It looks smaller, doesnt it? Compared to that? Go to that? OK, so why dont you just dictate to me where where things are gonna break. OK lets just see how this is gonna look. Alright hold on for a minute now. They come together and instantly synchronicity. Women, right, spend, women OK spend a lot of time together. You know what Im gonna just move my hand its too complicated. OK so lets go. Often uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh hmmm. Uh huh. Yeah. Uh huh. Sure. You wanna put it. No we can put it there. OK, we can put it there sure. Uh huh. Next line after we which we. Right. OK. Uh huh. Let me just copy this to make sure. Lets just see what happens. These are these things are... so were having trouble with just a few of these things. If I take it down a point size we may be able to fit it. So, lets try that. Lets take it to 17 first. Lets try 16. See what happens. It would rather be those things, OK? Lets stay with that for a second. Its gonna be counting, you know, and you wanted

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to keep the full page or you wanted to cut it? OK, let me just move that other hole to a place where it makes some sense. A little different sheet of paper. Itd be really nice. Does that look OK to you? We can just knock this hole out completely. Right here. Yeah, that looks OK. Uh, no, because everythings aligned. We have no room here because of that. Its fine. OK with a pencil line. Is that right? Its exactly. I like the las. They look like butterflies. Its funny. OK, are we happy with this? Uh, Im at work. I have an antenna, sure. Ah, well, you have to get a, um, a, um, put your stereo into mono. You should be able to get it oh its. I can get it I can get it on Thompson you should be able to get it there. You just have to flip flip it into mono. OK, now, let me see something. Let me concentrate for a second here. It looks really great. You want white? You want white? Or do you like it gray? Around it? OK, just make it white. Make it like an offwhite? No because then were always gonna see it, no... Yeah, its we dont have a choice really. Yeah, OK, 12... OK. There we go. OK. Happy? Good. It looks really nice. I like it. Its cool. Its really great. I think its excellent. OK, whats next? No. No. Lets see, um... yeah. How big? OK, how big do we want it? That tiny its that teeny little one. Its really really tiny. You want the three of them, dont you? Were not gonna be able to do anything with this, I mean... Yeah. OK. Lets see if we couldnt do something like this to save some space. Its gonna or did you want to or it really doesnt matter. Forget it. Alright, um, there is no question where its gonna be. How big... do we have another thing to go by? No, never Ill never. OK, lets see, were just gonna wing it. Lets see, uh, width 400 weve been using this, OK. I think our fonts been like... lets try it... lets just see what it looks like. OK. Now. 85. 4. You talk to John? You guys are meeting... It should be exciting. Now its there. That looks nice, doesnt

it? Is that at about the spacing that you want it? OK. Sure. Was that it was sort of orange, wasnt it? Thats gonna be... OK? Yeah, there. OK then. OK so. This is gonna go to this? Lets see. OK great! This one, yeah. The small ones first? Fine. Oh, OK OK. No problem. No problem. Lets see. OK. This is gonna be 11 now and this thing is gonna, uh, let me just change the titles on these. Just to keep our everything straight. 11 shift 12 X this is now gonna be called 12. Now were gonna have to rewrite them again. All these goes through 11, OK. And this is now gonna become 11 A. Yes and this is now going to become 11 B. 12 html. And this now gonna become and this is gonna go 13. You have to be really specific about what comes first for me because I have to re its just gonna take too long to to to rename everything. So in the future do that OK? OK so, we go... Bing! To this this OK. OK. Look alright? OK. Were back on track now. That one goes there and this ones gonna go to 13. OK, whats 13? Oh, youre not gonna have... these? Really? Oh, OK. OK and we want it in courier and what size is it going to be in? This is going to be in minion. 24? Yeah. I think so. Lets see what we get. Pretty big, but... yeah you wanna? OK to 22? Ive got to give you a copy of minion for your computer. Its the most beautiful font ever. Do we like do we like this or do we want it smaller? OK. Actually we can make the page really big because we have room to play on this one. OK text pretty isnt it? Does Sven want it? 4 its gonna be... All right. Ill tell you what. Youve got, now, its OK so you want to kind of do it around here? Well, we dont, you know, you dont we want to, uh... yeah OK, I mean I just just... how about something like that? I mean size isnt important. Something like that and well grab the words and well just center them up. Does that look about center to you? OK, now. Lower. OK and OK Ill put some more music on. These are great. Thank you.

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These are perfect, perfect for the morning, arent they? Want some more coffee? I dont like strawberries normally. Theyre usually so awful. Yeah. I hate them. These are good. Back to work? OK. Well, lets see what we get first. Like that? It looks great. OK, next? Let me have it yeah, I just wanted to see something about the size. See this goes with it makes it interesting. It makes it very interesting, right? I just want to see for size. OK. So we take this one. Same size copy OK. OK. Lets see. How do you like the size. A little larger, isnt it? Yeah. OK. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cheryl has this show up now. At Basilico Gallery. Do you know Basilico? Its on Wooster, uh, Wooster St. Right. Yeah, she got a nice write up in the Times yester... on Friday. Yeah shes she does, you know, video and painting. OK, is this right? OK, yeah yeah, just see it. Its up until Saturday. I think youll enjoy it. OK. Hows that? Looking alright? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I dont know the guys name. I dont know the guys name. Sorry. Cheryl, yeah. OK. Right, yeah. And the circular area will be clickable. Got it. OK. Isnt Sun Ra cool? This is a recording from a club about 1971. I like this stuff of his better than the more conventional work. OK, so. 14. Hang on. Is this it? OK? Hows that look? OK. Yeah, open up yeah, same thing. OK. So let me just close some of these windows here on the machine clean. OK, whats next? OK. OK. OK. Good. Whats next? OK. OK. OK. You wanna fill the screen pretty much. We can really we can really make that nice and big. 24 points, right? I mean we dont want to go any bigger cause we havent been using anything any bigger. 24. It looks good, huh? OK. Listen to the sound quality of this. Isnt this just awful? Like like it was recorded on a cassette. A real cheapo CD but its good stuff. But that was recorded that that was from 1915. This is 1970. That looks nice. Its great, huh? We want now in blue, a fake link? OK, yeah, lets stick

in one like that. I think we should do something like that. Yeah. I fooled myself before, when I was clicking through? Yeah, it was it was pretty good. Yeah, why not? Thats good. Its fun. Its going from the end here to the end here. Its pretty well centered. Yeah well it means link. This is just really good music. Hello? Hey, how ya doin? Yeah, Im with Connie. Whats up? Sure. OK get get Bets OK? Shes shes been down at Diane and Loiss for too long. OK? OK Ill Ill be here. OK. So whats next? When is it? It could be in the beginning. Its, like, like maybe I dont know. Lets lets find out. Its after this, right? Here it is. OK. We can do that all in one fell swoop. OK, whats next? And yellow? Well well do the yellow in a minute... OK. Which one? Move it? Alright? OK. Good. OK. OK? It smells like meat cooking. OK. Whats next? Oh, this is the end. OK. Let me remove this link now. Do you know where its going to go to next in the sequence? Dot html. OK, um, OK so you wanna draw it or see what those lines look like. You like this better? You think? Well, well see what it looks like tomorrow on the... You like it better? OK. I think so too. I think its stronger. OK. Done deal. OK, so lets go now and and and look at the whole thing and do corrections, you know, make things line up and all that jazz. OK, here we go. Lets look at it once. Make sure everythings in the right order. I just wanted to make sure. Now we can go back and make everything correct and the way it should be. I just I just wanted to make sure... Its a great piece. I really like it too. And it goes right to seduction which is really cool really... gorgeous. Nice, nice work. I think it looks really really good. Its so cool. The color thing is starting to make sense. The yellows and the grays. I love this piece. OK. OK we can do that. Lets lets finish up today with what we lets make this piece good and get it on the web. No! OK. It looks good. OK, so. Placement. You want to

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lower? It seems to be hugging the top. I think it can use a little more space, personally. Yeah. I mean this is what were just going to have to do now. I mean were just gonna have to go through things and... Lets see what that looks like. You like that? You want it a little lower? OK. Next so the next one. Thats good. OK. That that Sun Ra stuff was when he was completely cosmic and out of it. OK, so now go from here to here. Thats nice. OK. This is fine, I think this is the big page. What? Watch them watch what do you what do you want to replace the first line? You want to replace the first line? OK. Oh. OK. OK? Nice. I like it much better. Its perfect. Well, yeah, if they make something, yeah. Thats great and its perfect the way it is and you end up right there. Its gotta go down. So good. OK. Thats good. I think they should I think they should go down. Theyre up too high. This is a good one, Connie. I like this. I think its really nice. Thats better. See because your cursor your hand ends right in there. Its just where it should be. OK this is good. Its good. Its gotta go down. So we go from here to here. OK, so run through it again. Here you go. And we have until noon today, right? So why dont we try to put the sound on this one up today. Well load up a track and and and get a short clip and put it up. End here. Uh. Testing. Testing. Here we go. Back again for more fun. How we lookin? OK. OK. Not a big deal. Nothing is a big deal. No big deal here. No I got so many great new CDs this week. I buy them. This is really a nice disc. I I get them every every I mean I spend most of my free time shopping for CDs. I spend a an enormous amount of time and any spare cash I have looking for records and CDs. Its like its like an addiction of mine. Yeah. OK, so lets start. Yeah. I like it too. How is that 16? Lets try it see how it looks. No. Bigger. OK. Yeah that looks right, isnt it? OK? No big deal. OK? Does that look right to you?

How many? Alright. Yeah he wrote us a nice note. OK. So, reload reload this. Well, what happened there? OK? OK so thats it. OK, lets then try to get some sound on it. OK. Let me find my sound icon here. OK? OK were done with? This thing chews up a lot of memory. I dont want to keep a lot of stuff open. OK. SoundEdit. Can you find your CD? Its in there. Its its no right yes yeah its one of the boxes. OK. To bar document display. Document. What track is it? Why is it converting it at such a big rate. Shit. I just set the preferences and now theyre screwed up. Alright. Anyway, no big deal. Because, well, maybe I dont know because it seems to be going converting really slow and then I saw here that it says 16 44 and we have to have terribly low quality on the web or for anybody to download this stuff. No then I want? Uh, yeah, thats 16 bit 44 CD rate but.. Itd be great, I dont know, actually its going pretty quickly I I think it may be converting it may be converting. Yes. Yes. Yeah, we cant be doing anything while this is converting. Testing again. Testing again. Jeez. OK. Testing again. Testing again. And again. And again. OK, Im just printing this piece. Here we go. OK. Weve got to finish weve only got a half hour to work so we gotta finish this up. Ill be here. I think Im going to listen to Marjorie lecture I think at 4:30 and thats about the only thing I have going. Why dont you you wanna come back a little later? What what are you doing? At EAI? You wanna call me or... Where you going after EAI? Where are you going after EAI? OK, Ill call ya. What are you just going to French tonight? Alright, um, yeah maybe Ill Ill Ill take her over to your studio then before I go up to Marjories? Something like that? OK? OK. Got them all in there. OK. OK, here comes the big one. 205. Well have to get that thing down. Im just moving everything from our machine into Johns, uh, into the machine in Massachusetts right now

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yeah. OK Ill just call you later. OK? Lets see. See you later, OK? Ill call you later. The files are teeny. The image files are like amazingly tiny. This is great. I mean all the image files are have just been minuscule. 7k. I mean its insane. Theyre insanely small. Uh, the pictures. Thats what holds you up on the web. You see, weve got to the idea is to keep things moving quick I would say if somebody doesnt, uh, you know, I if somebody I I I dont hang out at a site where images are taking a long time to download. Nobodys gonna hang out. Nobody, you know, at this point and its gonna be this way for a while. Its not getting any better any time soon. So... I know. See everythings... Im telling it. Well see. Well see if whether it will actually do it in real time. Look at this file. Oh, its its gonna go amazingly quick. So small the file sizes are just great! You get youre getting your bang for your buck. 2 bites a file I mean theyre insanely small theyre wonderful. This is what we like. Its the biggest one yet. 17. Thats nothing. This is great. I mean, its all so primitive and ridiculous right now this web stuff and like I said, its gonna be this way for a while I mean. Yeah. I know. Well laugh at this, I mean, in in a few years were gonna laugh oh remember when we had to think about file size I mean and things were slow and, you know, were gonna laugh at the bullshit, you know, the the you just know its primitive. Its coming but its itll be a while yep. Its called telnetting in. Now were gonna talk to the computer directly and log in as John. And put in his password. Cmon now. Cmon. OK. And now were going to change directories to www. Change directories to... Oh, actually on any level here CD do something called webfix which will run a huge program to make everything readable for the universe. And while thats running... Lets see what we get. Just let that script run. Youve seen this ridiculous thing right its 139 K I dont want to. Well go right to

you. Lets what happens. Watch. 200 K. Alright, well, while were downloading it 15 seconds. Well, you know? Not as bad as I thought. Takes just a minute. I thought it was gonna be... On a on a 28 8 modem, you know, on most modems its gonna be a lot slower, but this is not bad. This is not bad. 28 8. OK, so we can go to the next one. Its slow because its waiting for this thing to download. My band my bandwidth is getting is eaten eaten up right now. Yeah. Battling. This wants to come in this wants to come in and neither one is letting the other really slow. Download a big download is gonna slow everything else down. See? Now were back to a minute. Look at that. So now its like 2 minutes, yeah. I guess we cant believe that. I knew. Who knows. Well see... right. Its its hard to say what it is but it seems about a minute and change, huh? Lets lets see what happens... lets see how it sounds and what happens. Alright. Nice, huh? Kind of cool, isnt it? I think we shouldnt put the sound file on that page. Lets just lets just keep on going through it lets just I want to make sure that everythings loading good. Look at how quickly this all comes in its great. This is terrific. Its nice. Like a constellation. Now I just want a whole soundtrack, you know? So this is live on the net. So this is what everyones going to be seeing. All I want to do now it hear the soundtrack. The whole thing. They rush to catch a glimpse of their report. Connie, this looks good. Lets see how this comes in. This is just live this is everyone is gonna be seeing. Its pretty good, huh? These will load automatically yeah cuz cuz it wants its the same image once its loaded. That its already loaded. Its been loaded loaded once and it remembers. Here we go. Yeah yeah. Pretty... I think it looks great, yeah. I really like it too, yeah. Looks great I Im in agreement. Well it all comes down to that. Its beautiful. Uh, actually, lets go back to... where was I just want to see Moses. I

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wanna make sure we got. I wanna Im just gonna really go quickly. I just want to make sure that were like there. Its a complete journey. It looks terrific. Yeah, Im sorry. Im not even letting it roll in Im just... you know I just want to make sure that its all working. Zap, there you go. Now we could put the sound right here. But, you know, I think you gonna most people are gonna do what I just did and I think the sound maybe should always be on the first page cuz its its not really part of the piece... I mean its its its something else, so... Well now its all loaded and its zippingly quick. Terrific. Alright so, at least we got some sound up I mean I was... and its just about, you know, its just about... Oh, uh, I dont know. Youve got to go get SoundMachine. Youve got to go get it. Yeah. Sure. Every I mean sure its on the web. Its a piece of shareware everybody. Did you every liste... yeah if you ever listen to a file a soundfile youve youve youve downloaded SoundMachine I mean its everybody has. Everybody has a different I mean SoundMachine is like the... no we just hit a snag on the network. Um, the network just stopped for a second. Lets see... cmon baby. Lets see there we go its fine, uh, yeah the you know I mean PCs use something called so, uh, I forget the name of their thing but yeah, you know, everybody everybody if youve ever listened to something on the web youve gotten SoundMachine. Well this is this looks great. This looks really good. OK, so thats it its a done deal. Alright great. I dont understand what youre saying. You mean in the begin in the beginning of uh, where? Oh. Wait hold it a second. Let me see. Lets go back. OK. Here? OK, so what are you asking. If you just this this stuff you wanted to make it blue? OK. Yeah. Yeah. Not right. No. No. No. Not at not at the moment. Not at the moment. Now you were gonna give me some, uh... you know that chair? You were gonna bring me a video or a couple of stills

of that chair with the with the thats being blown. I think I can do a little animation. Animation on the web or... Yeah. I wonder where I can find an animation. Hold on a minute I know. This will give you an animation. Id like to do something with this if we can get it. I think this is the animation. This would be better than the... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why dont you just... slides, right? You dont have photographs? Why do you slides. Really I thought that nobody uses slides. I mean everybodys putting stuff onto CD-ROMs on to photo sure. Nobody uses slides. Well, not anymore. No. Now its all being put onto CD-ROMs. Eh, its old fashioned. Its on the way out, I think. Look how long this things taking to download. Theres an interesting animation here if I can if itll ever download. I mean this is why... Mmmm, yeah well you probably didnt let it let it load up. Yeah, you probably youve got to let the whole thing load we, you know, if you dont let the whole thing load the images are gonna come in broken, you know, people are too watch this. Watch what happens here this really neat. Watch this heart. This is an animation on the web. Let it load but when it does its really nifty. Watch what happens. I dont who they think theyre talking to thats got such I mean this machine is about as good as you can get. I dont know what hes thinking here loading up a page like that. Look at this... its, like frozen. Its terrible. Wait its stopping again for like the third time. Look at this creeping in. Log out of here. Maybe thats fucking us. So anyway, yeah, were gonna have to put something that says wait for the whole thing to load. Wait for the whole file to load. This is insane. Cmon. Cmon now. Sorry, Connie. Oh, wow! Cool, what are you doing there? Really? Thats nifty. Really, thats great. Wow. Oh well, I wanted to show you this animation. Tell you what. If you can bring me... Slides are not going to do me any good here. I cant do

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anything with slides. Alright, well well well work on this. Well continue to work on this. Here you go. Here you go. Watch. Go ahead, let it load. Im going to... Ill call you over if it happens. This is so stupid. Weve got T.V. and we got all these wonderful things and we we sit here and wait for a little thing to move. Bill Gates said that its by the end of the century by the year 2000, 99% of the, uh, people on the web will still be on telephone lines. Regular phone lines. Yeah, so... I mean, this would be great if this were, like, 1905 or something you go wow! you get thrilled when a little something moves but after all weve seen, this is so stupid, really, its so its so ironical, if you ask me that we get excited about this dumb shit. Mondays fine. Mondays fine. Sure. Let me think about it. Bring me materials. OK. That that was fun. Yeah, it was fun. OK, so. Thanks for the fruit and you smell bad. You dont smell horrible but yeah I love that piece. The new one is really great, so. Alright, were getting there. OK. Bring just bring lots of materials and Ill tell you what we can and what we cant do. When I when I, you know, have it all in front of me. Plan D for dog. B for Babette. Youre so cute. OK, then, see you next Monday Connie. Take care. Great. Have a good luck tomorrow and let me know what happens. Tell him I wanna build his web site. OK Con, see you. Bye. Testing. Hello there. How are you. Good, whats whats the word bird? Yeah, by who. Its good. Isnt it? Good. OK. Um, did you speak with her the woman, yeah. OK, do you do you have any dates? She said, well, she told us when were coming. OK, when are we going to, um, Vegas? Do you know the dates on that? Hold on a sec. Let me just mark this let me just mark this on the calendar. OK she wants us to come, what, the 15th through the 21st? Uh huh. Until when, Monday the 27th? Wait on the 23rd, at night? OK and were coming back on Monday the 27th? OK so I can do my radio

show that Tuesday. OK. And were leaving for on Wednesday the fifteenth for Athens? Yeah, Id, yeah, fuck, Id like to leave Saturday the 11th. OK let me know so I can get back to Ken in terms of, right. OK. Yeah. No, Im sorry its a its an art project its gonna look like the cover of Ex Why Zee its not not a design thing. Not not at all. Yes I normally would Id normally would. Id Id love to but Im gonna, you know, make shitting men and its no money and thats it its that kind of shit. Yeah, its its really, you know, I mean its gonna be funky and illegible and its gonna be art. She wants art. No no no. Of course I would. Right right. No no no no. Yeah. OK great. Why not? Its its you also have a nice project coming up on the web and I think itd be... Listen they seem like a good group of people over there. I I really had a nice time there last night. Uh, I like them and Id like to get involved with them, you know, on well we are involved with them because youre doing a project with them and, you know, its just. It sounds good their whole thing sounds good. I like them, so lets go Thursday night, sure. Oh no. Thats thats not gonna work then because, uh, Cybersuds. Right. Yeah. Yeah it would, I mean, we can do something with them its no big deal. I installed this Aaron on my my computer. Aaron. It make it it makes your, um, it makes your your system look like, uh, the Copland, you know, the next System 8. It gives the visual appearance of... its just aesthetic. It makes it gives the visual appearance of System 8. Yeah. I dont know. Its just its just what its called. What makes it looks like a PC now. It looks just like a PC. Yeah, I mean it look like it looks like Windows or something. Its its weird, it makes your whole system look like Windows. Um, yeah I guess so, yeah. I guess theyre getting you ready for that so they they put out a a a uh, of of a premiere, you know, a premiere of how its gonna look. You know, Ill show it to you.

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Its nothing earth shattering. Its not so interesting. Anyway, OK, so um, Im gonna, lets see... I wanna go Im thinking Im gonna go hear Marjorie talk today. I think that would be a good thing for me to do. At Fordham. In by Lincoln Center. Whats the name of John Newmans gallery, do you know. Oh, thats right that woman was like Jason McCoy. OK, yeah, you should tell me where it is so I gotta go up and do that first. Right. Speak to anyone today fun? Just bullshit. Ill Ill find it. Yeah. No no. You were nice to her, god. Yeah, what the heck, yeah, yeah, its no big deal. OK. Um, so youre just gonna go to French then youre gonna come home? OK, Im gonna directly from, um, yeah yeah yeah. Im gonna go directly directly directly, uh, I guess Ill go to Vedanta. Ill go hear Marjorie Ill stop at Johns Ill go to Vedanta and then Ill go out to the radio station. Oh, I dont I dont really have a whole lot else to do today so... you know, its no big deal. So I wanna drop Babette off, or is that possible or...? Thats what you did last week. OK, thats good cause I I cant watch her today. I mean Ive got to do all these things so I dont know why dont I I dont I dont know why dont I did you have lunch or anything? You did? Why dont I just walk her over there, what the heck? Im really restless I need to go out she needs to go out. Why dont I just come over? OK. Bye. Testing. You wanna go? Alright. OK. OK. Lets go for a walk! OK. Hey. Hey. Testing. Testing. Testing. Oh, I see, I get it. OK. Make Bets, you make, you make. Make. Make. Good girl! Good girl! How you doin? Can I get a chicken noodle soup to go some bread and a cup of coffee? Yeah, no sugar thanks. Let me check. Hold on. Naw. Uh... how about this one. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Catch you later. Alright. Hello. How are you? Hows your dog? Does these two know each other? Do these dogs know each other? They fight. You have a dalmatian, right? Suvra.

Ah. OK, see you later. Uh, its looking for food. Is there food in there? She knows it, right? Hello. Here we are. Wow, look at that canvas! Its beautiful, god. Its so striking to walk in and see that. Its fabulous. Great. Great. Oh, look at you. Youre all hooked up and working here. This is really nice. OK. I just got you some coffee. I went to that place. OK, um, Im feeling a little shaky today. Well, because I was drinking and I got no sleep and I had to work all morning. Yeah it was, whew! I am definitely feeling a little shaky. Yeah, I just. Uh, I got a little like, uh. A little chicken soup will do me right. Ill move over here. It looks great. OK I can come over any time, you know, I dont really have any big plans. Ah. Its such a beautiful day, isnt it? Yes, hello Babette. Nothing for you, sweetie, nothing for you. I got this at, uh, you know that wonderful place we had dinner at that night that cheap one. Bellas? Theyre so nice. Good soup. You ever get soup there? Sunday is Sunday is Xenakis. Well, I could, you know, I could do it Friday, you know, or let me look at my sched. OK, no. Im really Im really excited to do it, definitely. I mean, its not its not a... no no. I love it. I love it. I think instead of wearing a white shirt Ill wear a t-shirt. Uh, I think Ill wear a T-shirt instead of the, uh, white shirt, I dont know. So, oh man! Im really, uh... god you know drinking its just just poison. I mean really, its fucking, you really feel like shit. Ah, you told me. You didnt eat much yesterday. I mean I ate I ate all day. Isnt that Ligeti wonderful? Did you listen to that? The one on the bottom. Oh my god, its so good. Its so seriously great. OK, um, yeah. Yeah OK, um, sure. Lets see. I know I have an appointment one day one time during the day on Friday I think but, you know, yeah, of course. How long do you need me to read a couple just an hour? OK. Ill read as long as you want me to I mean its really I mean of course this is in my interest too. Its gonna be fun. I was

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right. Look how snazzy New York Press suddenly looks. And snazzy graphics and more color. This morning at like 8 thirsty walking up here I was walking up to my office was so beautiful it was like this really big downpour. It was lovely. It was really warm. I was up at 7. I had to work. Ive got to be there at 9. What am I gonna do? I dont have really much of a choice. I had to meet Connie at 9. I dont mind, you know. I dont sleep as well as I used to. I mean I dont really mind, I mean, I feel like I dont need as nearly as much sleep as I used to. You know, which is fine with me. I dont I dont miss sleeping. I used to be the biggest sleeper ever. Now I, I just dont need much which is fine with me. Right, right. Well, well get her something nice. Well get her some oils or, you know, something, I mean, you know, whatever. I mean just like it it was funny seeing that fish cane yesterday at the party. I I was, like, oh yeah, I really like them, you know? Be careful. I took your TinySaver off, your screen saver off. So, just be careful, you know, you may want to put it to sleep you can put it sleep. Yeah. Yeah yeah. No problem. Itll come right back just yeah just save your work. Um, just just keep an eye on that you dont, you know, you dont wanna burn your screen. Burn in your screen. I took the saver off cause I was trying to remove all the conflicts from your system. No, it was just a bug... everything was old. The computer is my friend. Lets go out. Its really up to you but but, you know... What about...? Friday night? Instead of Saturday night? Saturday is fine I I just have to go to Charless opening thats all I have to do... Its fine. Does he know any like, real really Italian restaurants? I mean real Italian? Hey Stefano, do you know any like real Italian restaurants? Like some kind of amazing thing that we might never get to eat otherwise if only we were with you? Yeah, it yeah. Its very expensive, yeah. No, OK. Its real expensive. Right right. Well, thats

yeah yeah yeah. We go to Bar Pittis a different place, yeah. OK I figured you would know you would know places. At some point, yeah yeah, lets lets just do something easy for all of us. Uh, alright. Listen, we can just just just do something. OK, uh, you wanna speak to Cher again? OK, um, OK. See you later then. Yeah. Hes so nice. I like him. Im really glad were getting together with him. Yeah, he did. I mean, I figured he said Da Silvano but thats expensive. Starting Sunday we start taking care of Diane and Lois dogs so Im gonna really need need help there. I dont know how Im gonna make it tonight on FMU. This eye thing is back really bad this eye virus. I can hardly see out of my left eye. Its just the same thing. I guess itll just go away like it did last time. No but this it happened, you know, it know what it is see he diagnosed it last time. Its its a good year and a half I mean its a year. Well, alright, yeah. I can call them. Hes a nice guy. The ophthalmologist? Uh, Mickey or something like, you know. One of my mothers friends. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah I was covered. Yeah yeah. And then. I gotta get going really soon cause Ive got to get my shit together and get on my number of things. I had a fun time last night. I had a good time at da web. Johns party wasnt thrilling but Alixs new boyfriend is really neat. Hes good. I like him. Yeah. We need to just pin things down cause Ive got to get subs for FMU. But yeah, Id like to go that Saturday, the 11th and stay there through, you know, that Wednesday. Uh. Lets go that weekend lets go the week before, what the fuck? I mean, you know, its always fun to leave on a Saturday I always think thats a good good thing to do. Oh, thats an even better reason. On the on that day on Saturday? Lets get out of here the 11th. Perfect. Thats a great lets shoot for the 11th. Fuck man I want a few days in Greece, I mean, Grandmas dead nobody even cares! My father said hes never been to visit my

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grandfather. Who gives a fuck really? I mean this is just ridiculous, you know, please, please. No no no! This is thisll be great. A perfect excuse for us to get the fuck out of family obligations. No! Whats the point? No, I mean, maybe he went to the unveiling once maybe he saw his fathers grave when he went to bury his mother but no hes, hes whats the point? Hes dead! I was just reading Vivekananda today and he was talking about, like, the difference between the Greeks... Im sorry... between the West Western cultures disposal of the body in other words preservation of the body and the Eastern, you know, the Easterns like look get rid of it. Its used. Its a worn out rag. Burn it, get rid of it as quick as you can and nothing to do with it. Where as like the Egy Egyptians were like into preserving the body and this this weird ritual and attachment to to try to preserve something thats just long gone so... Zay gezundt! Zay gezundt, grandma! Grandma! I hope I didnt act too much like an asshole around Marjorie yesterday. Im going to have to play it back, I mean, this is the most embarrassing thing. You know, this this this collection is just gonna be the most horribly incriminating, embarrassing thing. There will Ill have an unedited version with the real names in it but like to be revealed 50 years after I die. So we can get the goop the goop on everybody. And we will have sex. I wanna have sex. Didnt I tell you that? I still mean it. Yea! Whatever. Yea! On my radio, uh. I tried to I slept for a half hour. I cant Ive got to get going Ive got things to do maybe Ill Ill sleep in Marjories class. Yeah I gotta go cause Ive gotta get my shit together for the radio show all this stuff. I guess sometimes I clean it with spit. Get on line. Yeah. Letter email it to John Simon, right? Why? What, in Eudora? Do it in Eudora. Oh, what are you gonna write him a nice thank you note or something? I understand you you just send it as an attachment. Yeah, I got

it, OK. So... Yeah. Yep. You said something screen. So what are you sending to Dan Graham? So how was how was Lejaren Hiller? I love it love that isnt that piece wonderful? I play that piece all the time. Ive played that a million times on my show. Saturday the eleventh. Let me let me just do something... OK. Hows, uh, Cathy Berberian? Jesus, thats a good one. You got good good ones here. Hows David Tudors Neural Synthesis? The Bordems Chocolate Synthesizer. Hows this one, Cheryl? Hows this one? Hows this one? Hows this one? Hows this one? You have a lot of good CDs here. Hows this one? Alright kitten, Ive got to get going. Make sure Betsy gets a little stroll before you go out today, OK? What? OK, Im gonna go. I dont feel really good. Maybe I should just blow everything off and try to sleep. Just skip it all? Skippity all? Skippity all? I should turn off lights. Its not any lighter. No no no. I I I... I know but I have like all these things to do. Miss Johns opening? Miss Marjories talk? Do you think, yeah? 4:30. Ive got to get all my stuff. Im going. Goodbye. I gotta go. Goodbye! Let me out. You cant come with me. You cant come with me! Cmere! Cmere! Stay. Ohhh. Sweet one. When you had did Betsy been O-U-T this morning when you went when you went and picked her up? Oh, good. Thats great. Thats what I like. Ay! Get inside. Come wait for the elevator with me. You want what are you doing youre just writing and hanging around? Ill see you. Well spend some time. I dont know I dont think Im gonna come to that art thing tomorrow with Sandra. I think that I think it, I dont know, I think that sounds too weird. Its not required, is it? For me? You should be able to if its online. Netscape that reads Java. Yeah. Java. We couldnt load that thing it needs a it needs a whole you can just get it on a disc. It needs a whole routine. It needs a script connected to the server. It doesnt work

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offline. Why dont you ask John these questions, honey. I love you. Lets Ill call you from the station, OK? I call you, you know, like Ill make my regular call. Bye. Take care of my dog. Try to feed her. Bye! OK. 2 blocks and its right there. Im sorry I was spaced out. Yeah, its easy. Its easy. Come. Come this way. Ill show you. Sorry Im a little spaced out... tired today. OK. Next one is Mercer and the one after that is Greene. Make a left. I got this one. Where you going? Theres always theres always another one coming. Yeah, youre working on how quick you get around, right. Well, it depends on the elevator. If it depended on you itd be like... Seriously, you get held up by trains and shit. Oh, youre on bike? Yeah yeah. I guess its built in. Built in to the gig. Yeah. Alright. See you. Alright take care. Testing. Hello. Your husband. Hi wife, whatchya doin? Yeah. Yeah. I do. Why? Listen, can you get FMU? You cant cause if you can Donna, who has a show right now, is doing a whole show of Xenakis music. I dont feel so good. What am I gonna do? Really fucks you up, doesnt it? Yeah. I just dont feel so good. What should I do, though? What are you gonna do? What time do you have to go? What are you writing? For that... right. Yeah, I dont know. I dont seem to be. I feel weird. You know I could also go Marjories also giving a lecture, like the same lecture tomorrow night at Columbia. Really? You think so? Yeah, I, you know, then, you know, then Johns stuff. Maybe I should skip Johns. Maybe I should just fuck it all, huh? John Newman. You dont think that, like, that its its like... you know, we should, you know, see the, uh, you know, like we went to the party but we didnt go to see the opening... Uh, yeah, so you think I should just like, yeah, Im in no shape you dont think Im like in any shape like to go to Margies Marjories. If shes if shes doing it again next week... tomorrow... tomorrow night Ill think about going

there. Yeah I feel sort of dead. I cant do anything. Im not really tired. I just dont know really what to do. For a boy whos just feeling like hell. If I was up to speed... and then Ive got to stay awake all night. You know, if I didnt have to stay awake all night it would be like oh, you know, itd be a different story I guess, you know? Really? I I kind of feel the same way. OK. Alright. Ill talk to you later. Bye. Im calling you again. Listen, do me a favor. Im not gonna do those things. I think youre youre correct, um, what time are you going up to French? That late. OK. I was gonna say, you know, why dont you drop Betsy over? Yeah, yeah. Why dont you do that. I think youre right. I just gotta chill. OK? OK, go. Beautiful. Is that it? Oh, its great! No, I think its perfect. Savor? Right. S-A-V-O-R, uh huh. Right. Right. Great. I think it sounds really perfect. I like it. Its beaut its perfect. Youre such a good writer. Do you wanna both go home and crash out together for a little bit? It would be fun to take a nap together. You wont youll go to class. Are you gonna stop up at Johns really quickly since its right up the street from your class? Thatd be probably good honey. If Im not gonna go, I think you should. Alright you wont why dont you drop Bets since Im gonna be hanging out till probably till you get home Im Im not gonna do anything tonight. Im gonna try to... OK, so why dont you drop her here since its right on the way to the subway. So what time will see you? About 6? 6:00 here? Sounds good. I I like the paragraph. I think it works beautifully. Bye. Uh huh. Wait a moment. Hi. How you doin? Are you alone? Doing what? I like your boyfriend. Hes really hes totally nice Im Im Im sorry if I was acting a little crazy I was a little drunk. I didnt I felt a little bit off but I kind of Im a little bit out of it today and I kind of... You know after youre out and you get really drunk, um, and you talk to a lot of people and, you know, you start to think, god

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I was acting like such an asshole. Right. Good, well hes really great. We we like him. Yeah I really yeah I think hes really nice. So you guys had a good weekend? So, this is this is great. Yeah. It seems so healthy. Really. Cool, well, uh, yeah, well at any at any rate its it feels good. You know? It feels good. So, itd be really fun to go out the four of us I mean weve got to do that. I mean we definitely definitely have got to do that. So I went to that da web thing last night. It was fun. There was like nobody there. Just the people who worked there really it wasnt much of a party. But the people who work there are really nice I mean Andrea works with really nice people. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, it was... yeah yeah but we were we were just really zonked I had to wake up at 7 this morning. I had to work, um, at 9 but I had to work at 9 and I have to be up all night. But I was drinking all day yesterday so Im Im feeling, you know, I was supposed to do all these things, you know, like go to Johns opening and stuff but I I got to get some sleep. And I think Im too zonked to do anything. I mean Ive got to stay up all night. No for my radio show. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Im gonna take a nap at about 6, yeah. Ill crash from like 6 to like 10 or something I should be OK. I do need I do need some down time though. Good, so what else is up? Are you working this week? Well, do you have a show with Magda? Wow! Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Well theyre essential, arent they? Is he an artist? And is he good? Right. Uh huh. Yeah yeah. What kind of stuff is it? Did he go to art school? Hes not like like sort of part of like the art world like when were talking about people he didnt know anybody that we were talking about. Hmmm. What scene has he been like hanging on? Right. Right. Uh huh. Uh huh. Ha! Hmmm. Hmmm. Yeah, yeah definitely. Oh I know, I mean, you know gosh. Weve weve weve sort of been around the block a few times. You

know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh? Oh I, you know, professional what is, you know, I know you dont have to explain that. Oh well, yeah. I I understand. No, really, you know... Oh, Christ! Can you hold it a sec? Al, can you hold it a sec? Yes, I agree. Wait. This is interesting let me maybe Cheryl, hold on. Hello? Hey Bruce, how you doin? Good where... good. Where are ya? OK, um, quick or you wanna yak a little bit? OK. Yep. Yeah. Great. Great, um, actually Id like to go see her Columbia gig. Are you gonna go? Yeah, I cant. Ive got to stay up all night, man. I got my radio show. So, I did want to see her. OK, I could talk to her about that tomorrow. Let me, OK, hold on a second. Let me tell Alix Ill call her back. Hold on. Alix? Hi, um, its this really important, um, literary critic that I just had lunch with yesterday. Let me just take the call. Can I I call you right back? I I really want to talk. Shes from California and... OK, Ill call you right back in like 5. Bye. Bruce? OK so you guys... OK, shes off. Did shes... OK yeah OK great. A nice pl a decent place that you guys can hang out and just talk in SoHo. OK, um. The place that I really like, I mean I dont really like many places in SoHo. Ill Ill name a few. Uh, La Jumelle is really good. Its a nice place its on Grand and West Broadway, uh, they its next to Lucky Strike. Lucky Strike being the horrible trendy place. No no no but but La Jumelle is next door to it and its and its really really quite nice. Uh, its its really mellow. But then if theyre not open for lunch which they may not be, oh, heres a great place, um, Cafe di Nonna. Right. That is on the corner of Mercer and Grand and I love that place. Its one of my faves, actually, and thats I mean its reasonable and its its its pretty and its quiet and its off the beaten track. I mean Im not gonna send you to Jerrys or anything cause its its just too crazy. Um, let me just come up with another name for you, um, lets see. Yeah, I would

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recommend I would recommend I would recommend Cafe di Nonna over La Jumele. I mean I would just say say meet her at Cafe di Nonna. OK. OK its on the, uh uh, northeast corner of Mercer and Grand. Uh, Cafe di Nonna. D-I Nonna. Something like that, yeah. N-O-N-N-A. Cafe three words: Cafe di Nonna. Yeah, I... no no no especially if you guys are meeting at like one? Oh no, it should be fine. Um, so does she wanna see Cheryls show? And meet up? Cause I know she is interested in writing something about video art. Yeah, is that OK with her? Not that I make too much of an asshole... at the, uh, at the thing. She said she had a good time at lunch? OK, good. Im a little paranoid because I got a when I spoke to you yesterday I was extremely drunk, um, and I got really drunk at lunch and I, you know, I was like shooting my mouth off outrageously and its like one of those days when you try to cover your tracks. Uh, she she insisted I have a glass of white wine and the mood was so buoyant and jubilant that I had another glass of white wine. Then she insisted I have desert at which time I, uh, I I had a cognac. I walked out of there sloshed and when I spoke to you, um, I was still trashed and then I had to go to like a cocktail party and I was sort bottoming out about the time I hit the cocktail party so I started drinking again. And then I went to dinner and I drank there and then I went to another to Andreas, you know, da web cocktail party and continued to drink. I feel like hell today and I feel like I made a fucking complete asshole of myself everywhere I went! Oh god! So anyway, well OK. At any rate so yeah we OK so... well, we could all meet at the gallery, sure, uh... great why dont I meet you guys at the tail end of lunch at Cafe di Nonna well all have a cup of coffee together well walk over to the gallery. Uh... you name it. If you want if you want time with her blah blah blah... OK. OK. OK. 2:30 quarter of 3. 2:30

2:45 and then I think Ill go up to Columbia to catch her. I would I do want to see her today but I gotta stay up all night. Right. Right. OK. OK. Oh I I I dont know if I if Ill go up with her or whatever, you know, yeah whatever... you know, theres plenty to do. What are you doing tomorrow night? OK. OK, great. Um, so well see you then but everything I told you yesterday was was correct Im not, you know, I was drunk but I wasnt lying. Uh, you know, everything I told you about about what she said about you was... I know I know but I just want to blah! OK, great so Ill see you tomorrow. Later babe. Bye. Great. You around? Well, I had this great lunch yesterday, um, with this woman named Marjorie Perloff. Ive read her books for years and shes, you know, inspired me and she wrote about 73 Poems and I did a big, huge review of of a Cage book that she did and were just, you know, hopefully I think were infatuated with each other. I mean, you know, shes like 60 years old and Jewish from the West Coast but we had a lunch yesterday at MOMA and, um, she uh, you know, we went on and on and on yesterday and and she wants to come down to SoHo and so I figure I was, you know, so Im going to meet her tomorrow for coffee down here so I just had to kind of firm that up with her. Yeah, no, it was great. God, I mean, you know, I dont know Ive never heard you mention anyone like a critic or theoretician thats been completely, you know, sort of along your wavelength? You know, like Ive heard Ive heard Cheryl occasionally like talk about Rosalind Krauss the way that I talk about Marjorie. Any anyway its like I met her for the first time yesterday, you know, she took me out to lunch at the MOMA, uh, members dining room, and it was, you know, like totally amazing. I know shes, you know, shes a goddess, you know, to me, you know, shes the most interesting, you know, person so. It was so cool to meet her. Yeah yeah yeah, really

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nice. So, anyway, um, so so we were talking about how, you know, people dont can have their shit together professionally but not emotionally and heres somebody who has their shit together emotionally and professionally. They they they might they might not but whats more important is emotional. I remember the story, right. What does that mean extreme Leftist? Did I did I have politics? Was I talking politics last night? No. Um hum. Yeah, what does that mean, tell me? Yeah I dont Im Im curious what it what what that is. Well, I mean politically or... Is this weird for me to ask? I mean we we we know each other so well this is interesting to me because you and I know each other so well, right? That that like theres never like we never think too much about what each other is about but if a new person meets both either one of us they always have things to say that, you know... Certainly not! Lets see. I do, yes I do, yeah. I think of I think of radical or leftist, you know, somebody like Bruce Andrews. I guess politically. Right so yeah attitude like fuck it. Like a fuck it all attitude. No good. Well hes very sensitive. Hes a real good listener which is really rare, um, um, you know, hes got a very calming air about him and and and I have to say, and you may not like this, but Im gonna say the part theres something about him that I like a lot that reminds me of about of a part of Jerry. Saltz. That the way he asks questions. He asks these great questions about you. And, you know, I like I love this about Jerry, I mean I really do. I mean he he as... in other words like one thing that Jerrys really good at he is! He makes you feel like hes really listening Jerry whether its real or not with Jerry we we dont know if it is. But he always makes you feel like hes really listening and that you kind of feel like really like like you have all his like you have his at... like you matter, like you have his attention. And I like that and and Bill reminded me

a lot of that. Now with Bill I kind of feel like its just real sincere with Jerry you know I question it, but I I like Jerry, you know, I mean I just like him. I just like Jerry, what can I say? I just like the guy so, you know, um yeah so so Bill Bill strikes me as sort of sort of just a person whose interested. The guy has just got a mellow vibe. Hes mellow. Thats why I said have you last night have you guys. I said Alix is he always like this or have you ever seen... No no remember I said that? Do you remember I said that? Have you always is he always like this? And he said noooo. This is good though, I mean, I sort of I saw Andrea last night and I was like Andrea I just went out with Alix and Bill and hes great and Andrea was like Andrea really likes him too. This is good. Nobody liked him. Bill? Oh my god! What a great guy! Hes like totally the minute I met him like this guys totally cool. Yea! Thats fresh. Right. Right. Interesting. That says a lot. Huh. I dont know. Well see. Well see. Yeah yeah yeah no. I do too. Really. Really. Statusy. With, yeah, with somebodys whos just attached. That sounds horrible. Well, its good news. Its really cool. Im really happy. Hes really nice. So what are you guys up to? Whats whats... yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh god. God. Yeah, thats amazing. I cant believe youre moving. I think its good, though I think its gonna be cool cool to live there. I think its good. I think its gonna be really cool. You know, if worse comes to worse you get a little studio. You know. Maybe you and Cheryl could get a little place together. She needs she fucking needs something more permanent than that Daniel Levine nightmare. Alright, listen, I just wanted to check in with you and just tell you tell you that I think Bill is really cool tot... really cool. And thats thats a lot for me to say! I dont like people so much, you know? Really really, I dont I dont like people that much but I I really really would love to hang out with him so so there we

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go. Alright, um, at any rate I guess Ill just talk to you, uh, over the next whenever. Have a good few days at work and see you at the next thing. I dont know what were doing. Yeah, Im just around. Were gonna go to some concerts were doing some family things nothing, you know... yeah, right, right. Itll be just count your blessings that your folks moved to Florida. Its just insane. See ya. Bye. Hi is Peggy there? Hi is Peggy Davis in? OK, its Kenneth Goldsmith and I have a meeting with her tomorrow scheduled for 3. I would like to make it closer to 5. I will email her. Shes not in, huh? Or else she can just call me back. Im gonna be here at my office. Im at 260-4081. Uh, Ill be here until 6. Itd be great if she could call me. Grazie. Bye. Hey you, how you doing? Oh ho ho both of us. Poor things. Pauvre petit. You want to skip French. You want to go home with me have a little dinner and take a little nap? But if youre not feeling good... OK listen, tomorrow around 2:30 2:45 were meeting Marjorie? Shes coming to see your show. So were gonna have coffee with her and Bruce at Cafe di Nonna and then were going to walk over to see your show with her. Yeah. OK? 2:30 like 2:45 something like that. OK? So, what do you think? What do you think youre really gonna do you think youre gonna go to French? Well, dont beat yourself up for feeling bad. OK. Um, alright. So you were gonna come by in about a half an hour. Yeah. As you wish. You wanna just come over? You wanna just come over and well go home? Well go home or youll come over and drop the dog. OK. See ya. Hello. Hello. Hey everybody. Oh, its raining again, huh? Betty, its raining, huh? Hi. Hi everybody. So, whats the word bird? Your hair looks pretty. Its so curly. I like it when its curly. Yes. Sweetheart. I think maybe we both are just a little burnt. I think burnt is the word. Were going. Yeah. Were going. But maybe, you know, we cant go to the

country. Look at those nice pants. I havent seen those on you in a while. No. Office cleanin 40 dollah. How much? Oh. Oh. Whats the dog doing? Soon? Look at her. Mmmm, we love animals. Is that right? Speak into the microphone, young lady. No. You dont need mics for this. On the floor, under the table? With a bad pillow. That was so funny. I dont know. Cause were the same. Let me pee and rejoin you. Oh, what a snowface. You wanna pay a quick respect to John? Why? Cant deal with it? Leave your feet up there. OK. let me back in. How were we before, like this? Im cozy are you? Bets, sit. Sit down. Down. Like mad. Pillow. Right because, do you have call waiting at your studio? Cool. OK thats why. It dials star 70, youve got to change your setup to say star to say, um, just a regular number. But you dont have call waiting there? Ill just knock that out there. But if an incoming call comes youre gonna get bumped off line. What do you mean off? Yeah. If you have it on its good. Do you have it there. Wait, Ive got to get that its a its important. Yeah, I will. Hello hello. Shit. Marjorie Marjorie, uh. Im waiting for this call back from this I have an appointment tomorrow at 3 that Im trying to cancel so I can see Marjorie again. You can do it later. Lay down. Go on. Are you going? Betsy. Bets! Other. This is Im trying to transcribe the first conversation I started with with here. Its it aint interesting reading. Yeah. I think its just gonna be a phenomenon, you know? Like who who would ever read this? John Lee. So look at wanna see my, uh... wanna see my new desk my new setup? Look. The folders... yeah, right. The folders so like they kind of jump out. Look at the trash its... Hey! What happened to my buttons? I had my buttons set a really nice color. What the fuck happened to them. My buttons and my menus set. I had everything set this really kind of... see? Can you see does it look white to you? off white?

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The other way. Well, thats kind of... naw, I never had. Isnt it nice, though? I got a quick windowshade. I mean, its not viscous cosmetic. But, you know, the new Microsoft the new Microsoft Word, you know, it looks like it really looks like a, uh, it really looks like a... The beige, yeah, and then actually... If I do this I go back to the buttons and I go colors and I go item text like... now everythings blue. You can just set this stuff. I gotta play around with it a little bit. Anyway, this is, uh... just running across it. A whole new. I dont know. I dont know. What do you mean to throttle to remain one? Its OK now. Well, you can poke around with it. See you later. I love you. Bye. Is Peggy Davis in? Shes not. Uh, sure voice mails fine. Thanks. Hi, its Kenneth Goldsmith. You got it. Hello? How you doin? Did you get my message? Oh, OK! No I havent checked my email. How how ya lookin? Great! Lets do 5:30. Thats great. Wait, lets see, wait, hold on. Actually, actually, um, 5:30 sounds great. Is 5 better for you? Ah, call it 5. Call it 5 thats fine. No no no no no. This is important. Youre important. Lets do it. Lets do it at 5:00. Great. You got it. Yeah, youre gonna bring by some books for me? OK, well just look at some books, uh, and get going. OK, see you then. Thanks Peggy I appreciate it and I appreciate your flexibility. See you then. Bye. Sorry Im tight Ill catch you next time. Alright, alright. Test. Hello. How you doing? Can I have, uh, the shrimp with black bean sauce and broccoli? Rice. And also hunan chicken on rice. Hot and spicy, please. Thank you. Hello. Hi! How you doin? Good good busy. Yeah, were really busy. How ya doin? You guys getting ready to go? Gonna have fun? Alright Lo. Look who wants to say hello to you. Thank you for looking after her for a few days. We appreciate it. Hey Bets! Get out of there! Well look forward to taking care of your mutts. Did Di go and clip those gates yet? Ah, she better. How you

doin, alright? Ah, not so much. No. Its fine to me. No Artie Arties drunk. Ill see you in a little bit. Did you just get back? Hmmm? How was your dinner? You do? How do you feel? I just like slept for 3 hours. Yeah, it was excellent. I gotta go to the station. You wanna walk out with me? Take her around the block for the night, hmmm? What do you say? Canal St? Eh, little girl? Gut. Wow! The girl from Cyberspace. Shes everywhere. You are? Oh. O-A-T-I-O-N. I just gotta... Oh god, it was so good to sleep. What a fucking wasted day this was. Do I need my scarf? OK go on! Go Bets! OK go on! Go get em! OK. OK go. Shes so cute she waits for me. Oh. Im not the leader of the pack. You are. Yeah. A little a little chilly. Not freezing, just chilly. Chilly enough. So you didnt make it to Johns, I assume. Wait! Wait for me. Oh god. Hey, we should tell him that its not a good idea to have a cocktail party the night before your opening no one will show up cause theyre too drunk. Oh god. Yikes! This way. Whew! What a... oh its just yeah, yeah. Whatever. I have a tile of a tile of dark. Thank you tho. Thank you honey, Im fine. I got 3 hours of sleep Im tired. Its wonderful. So, um, so then tomorrow well just meet Marjorie, OK? Thatll be interesting for you. Isnt that great that shes gonna see your show? Yeah, she called, right. Right. Right. She was the one who called. You get the message from her. You get the messages? Oh, there was a message that she called and she was just just in town today and that she was, you know, going back to Baltimore but shed like to be in touch with you you have her card. Yeah yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Cmon lets cross the street. Im going then. Goodbye. I love ya. Bye Bets! Its every day, huh? Too much of that, yeah. Yeah. Like one. What happened one guy? Today. Was this just today or was it just just just ongoing? Yeah. Yeah. You wanna you wanna be your own... You got kids? How many? Beautiful,

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huh? Children? Take care. Hey. Just coming to say hi. Got my ticket. How you doing tonight? Alright. Just wanted to say hello. I have 10 minutes. Is everything alright? I know you are. See you soon. OK, thank you. Good night. Test. Hey pal. Who loves you? Besides Nachum. Missed you last week. I I made due, babe. I made due. How you doin? Good you got a cold. Yeah you sound... yeah I could tell. I could tell by the... youre schnotty sounding, huh? I was here. That happened last week. You missed it. I was in the prod studio. I was in the prod studio heard 4 gunshots looked out the window saw a cop car I was like, yep... well you know, I live in the city, you know? Things are rough in SoHo. Things are real rough down in SoHo. Fuckin gun gun play every night. You know I live in the big city! I know its tough! This is nothing! I live in New Yawk! Merediths shaving. The patch. Hey, good to have you back, pal. Ah. What are you playing? What is this? I like this. This is good. Can you play it? Can you play it? Oh, its great. Alright. Hows things Storkmeister? Good. Good. The new bin. The old bin is a little slow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you can remind folks, that would be good. OK, well youre around. Im not. You have more sway over people than heads here just cause you see them. OK? If you can mention it to people. Id like to keep it alive. I dont know, I guess we shouldnt force it if its if its, uh... well, uh... Now Stork, you talked me into that last week and Im infinitely appreciative. I dont know if itll itll go for 2 weeks in a row, though. No, seriously, what have you got? OK, great. Well, youve got you made a great call last week Ill tell you that, that was really nice. Its interesting. How how is it? When... Oh, I Pseu played it I was like, oh what is that? Hes really neat, Lol Coxhill, yeah. Sorry? I like kisses only from you Stork. Sorry? Yeah, I tried this. I tried this last week, I think. Yeah yeah. Thank god, Stork. Im giving Stork a blow job. What, your

dicks so big its gonna knock my teeth out, pal? I do for you to get you hot Pseu! So whats the problem? Are you gonna be here for it? Are you gonna be here Stork? You dont look so good yourself there, darling! Awww. Thank you. Im telling ya. I did have a helluva day. I drank I drank all day yesterday. You are the one. Youre always the one. Thanks for telling everybody that. That was really nice of you. Joke! Joke! Jooookkkkkeee! You are funny. You are funny. Me so horny! What you doing? What you doing? Yeah, hey look at me, man. I must be getting older because a day of drinking knocks me out for the entire next day. Uh, I went to lunch. Somebody insisted I have one glass of wine I ended up with 2 glasses of wine, some cognac, and then I went to two cocktail parties last night and that was it. That was it for me. Hey! Its SoHo pal! Its so ho. Hah! Do I look like hell? You know you look dookey. Shit. You look like shiiiittttt. So whats up, baby? How was Iggy? Was he? Huh. Really, I in other words, he hasnt lost it, mmmm? Oh boy. When is the Fhrers birthday? Its the 23rd? Its coming up. I was gonna do a Fhrer Fhrer-bash. I did one last year. I missed his birthday by a day or two. Yeah, I try to celebrate it every year. Yeah, I know. I got lots of calls. You know, Im trying to be popular. Im unpopular but Im trying to be popular. Hah! God forbid. See you later. And good morning its time for again another edition of Unpopular Music. Im Kenny G and Ill be unpopularizing your mind until 6 a.m. at which time Nachum Segal comes in to radicalize your politics. At the, uh, top of the set as always Beniamino Gigli from a 1931 Gala release... an aria from the Pearl Fishers by Georges Bizet. The Mothers of Invention after that with Lets Make the Water Turn Black. Something from Elephant Steps by Richard Foreman in collaboration with Stanley Silverman conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas. A multi-media pop

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opera extravaganza. We heard Youre on the Radio and that was the great flea market find this Sunday and yes, well be hearing more of that. This is something that hasnt seen the light of day since 1974. Kenny G dredging up the best of the unwanted. Violent Onsen Geisha from a few years back... of course nothing has titles on this record so I wont even bother telling you what it was we heard, but it was good. Stereolab, something new from them Sparkplug its from a record called Emperor Tomato Ketchup and they just keep cranking out that same old stuff, dont they? Every record sounds the same and we love it. Now, here is something coming up... heres something coming up that says warning Sonata Erotica may be offensive to some listeners so immediately, of course, I was drawn to it. Its by Ervin Schulhoff, whoever he is, but its a classical take on a classical theme. Im Kenny G See you soon. Its about as offensive as Harry Met Sally. Wait. When Harry Met Sally? Gee, that was really offensive. Im glad they warned us. The bidet was the best part, wasnt it? Now, heres another take on that same theme by Vangelis. Thats right, with his rock band. The Greek cheesy film composer Vangelis had a rock band called Aphrodites Child. Ive played this before but it also says on the cover of this, scrawled in some ancient long-forgotten WFMU DJs sloppy handwriting some of these cuts are not suitable for airplay and this cut that were about to hear called Infinity is one such cut. And its about as offensive as Ervin Schulhoffs Sonata Erotica. Dig. Female, uh, and Im glad that you won the tickets. Cool. Uh, can you hear that? You never know with this goddamned classical music, you know? You ready? You ready? Shall I give it away? OK, just keep listening. Let me get this let me just let me just put you down. So wait a minute. This is tomorrow night theyre doing 73 Poems. Right. Um, yeah, Im in Ill be there. Im

gonna show up. Uh, I am just there. No, Im not going to be doing anything. So, but this is at midnight so OK hold on a sec... yeah. Right. OK. So you, you know, you can go to 73 Poems then you go to this. OK. Uh, OK. So whats your address? I think youve heard this. Yeah, the phones ringing off the hook for this one. Let me tell you Michael. Alban Berg. Three Orchestral Pieces, Op. 6. His most famous piece. Sure it is. Other than like like Lulu. Well, I have bought I have this Concerto for Violin and Orchestra. Actually the reason Im playing this is this is the piece that that Adorno deconstructed so groovily. I know you love that. OK, so, give me your address. 1 C. Yeah. Wait give me your phone. Ive got to... I know, I know I just got to do this yes. 749. Mike Patton. He said uh uh, he is I have him on this David Shea record. Hold on. Im gonna play later. Yeah, no, I will I actually have here I actually have a record I found this weekend at the flea market of Xenakiss stuff. Of course I will. OK, uh, let me see. Hold on. Oh, weve got another call. Wait, lets see if they can guess it. Then then Im fucked. Hold on. FMU. It sure is. No its not. It is Alban Berg. Alban Berg. OK. Thanks. This guy wanted to know if it was Bernard Hermann. Yeah. OK, so. Hold on a second. Uh, no its not the person I thought. Anyway OK this is a guy from Faith No More. Ill tell you what Michael. Who you going with to the Knitting Factory? So if if maybe well just go down there together, huh? Yeah, but if were hanging out and stuff. Yeah. So, uh, sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah I dont particularly love that improv stuff but, you know, listen maybe maybe maybe yeah I know I know. Maybe well hang out and... I know I know I know. I just, you know, what can I say? Ill get there I promise. When you love opera Ill start loving improv. And I like a little bit of improv. I like Mozart too. Uh, so at any rate at any rate. So, what else is new? Hows the

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show sound tonight? You just yeah youre so funny. You always sorta like tune in when Im like hoping youre gonna be listening. Im always like Im always like oh I hope I hope Michaels listening to this one! I just played played Ute Lemper singing Lili Marlen and also a Paul Celan piece called Death is a Master from Germany. Im figuring Im doing a little Hitler thing here since when is the Fhrers birthday? When is the Fhrers birthday? Ah, of course, well its not, lets see. Do we have a calendar here? Here we got the Semiotexte Anarchist calendar. Uh, didledidlediddleduhduh, ah of course theyre not gonna put Adlof Hitler. Every time I sort of do this every year I kind of do a, um, a little Hitler thing and and and every year I always get the birthday wrong and every year somebody calls me up and tells me what the real birthday is. Hey, so lets say this. Lets meet up at lets meet up at at The at The Kitchen. Oh, hold on a second I got another I got another call. FMU. Who who is this? No no you have to answer the question. Hes a famous anti-Semitic early 20th century composer. Youre youre amazing. Thats... oh you just you just you just called. I have caller ID here. Ah ha ha you guys I got your number. Anyway I gave those tickets away but listen, do want another? You want another ticket? Yeah, I know. But wait a minute Ill have to give you tickets to something else. Seriously. Um, what do you want. Youre smart. So your friend called and said... well, I appreciate your effort. I wish I wish it was for Zorn. Wait a minute. Let me get off the other other line. Hold on. Michael, OK, let me entertain this person, uh, they they actually guessed Alban Berg and now Ive got to and now Im in a spot so you and I are going but Ill see you at The Kitchen tomorrow night, OK? Get out of here. Were going. Were going. Ill see you tomorrow night. Alright. Hey, so what do you want to see? Well, no, I mean youre

clever and however you do it you do it. OK, so where do you live? In what part of this area? East Village. So you want something in town. OK, here. Tell me if youve heard of any of these bands. Mighty Aphrodite youve heard of them? Alright El Dorado Licorice Mecca Normal at Brownies Tupa Flame God Co Duo OK Mommyheads at Brownies? Do you like them? What do you mean you cant get in? How old are you? You can get in. How about Run On? Theyre really great. Theyre amazing. Theyre, um, yeah Wednesday the 24th at 8 theyre totally cool. I swear to you and theyre right around the corner from you. Yeah, theyre good friends of mine and we love them here at FMU, yeah. OK, yeah, Ill tell you more. Ill tell you more. Worry Dolls. Cows. The Cows Little Kings Skeleton Key. Actually, no, seriously you want Run On go see Run On. Im telling you. Go tomorrow night at 8. Theyre really great. I just saw them, yeah. Yeah. You can. Dave Ma how about Dave Mason? Youre too young to know who Dave Mason is. At 20? Yeah? I have almost 15 years on you, young lady. I know who Dave Mason is. You dont know who Dave Mason is of course you dont. When I graduated I grad no, Im not hip either. I graduated high school in 79 Dave Mason was like some really cheesy British leftover from from that period so. OK, so lets do it. Go to Run On tomorrow night. Its cool. OK. Whats your name? Sonia... I need a last name. Mmmm, I got it. Daughter of Brian. Whats your address? Address? Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. OK. And the zip is 1001.. 100 0 0 0 9. 3? OK and I need a phone. 212, oh, do I wait? Youre out of youre out of area. Go on, just do. 6 7. OK. OK. and so heres what up. Lets see. Each winner gets a pair of tickets. Names will be on a list at the door. Dont announce names over the air. Thats our instructions. OK? So, just go there at 8:00. Its Run On. Run On Rustin and Corvis. Say you won tickets from WFMU and

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give your name and theyll have them at the door for you. Of course. So youre clever. Run Ons really cool. Yeah, Im not kidding around. Theyre actually I just saw them at Other Music the other night and they were they were totally amazing. So check them out. Theyre really cool. OK, and I trust you Sonia. Be cool. Be clever. Bye. Im telling you. This WFMU listenership is unbelievably crafty. Thats right folks. The phone rang off the hook with knowledgeable listeners. Yes that was Alban Berg, a famous anti-Semite from the beginning of the century and the Zorn tickets are gone. Thanks to our very knowledgeable and crafty, very crafty listening audience. Its 91 point 1 WFMU Im Kenny G and its another version of Unpopular Music thats right, Alban Berg, you all know and love Alban Berg, dont you? That was Pierre Boulez conducting the Three Orchestral Pieces Opus 6. He was conducting the London Symphony Orchestra on that one. After that was Charlie and His Orchestra a little German propaganda swing from 1941 through 1942. We heard Who Will Buy My Bubblitzky? Finishing off with anti anti-Semites Hans Eisler and Bertolt Brecht a couple pieces sung by Marianne Pousseur with Katia Vingt on piano. Off that release we hear Auf den Kleinen Radioapparat and Panzerschlacht. So we do have some more tickets to give away and it is, I guess its ticket give away time here, uh, the reason being that theres a bunch of really cool shows in the area this week. Uh, I do not have tickets for the Xenakis show on Sunday at the 92nd Street Y at 2:00. Iannis Xenakis making his first appearance in this country in a good 10 years, um. It will be a retrospective of his work played by the Ensemble Xenakis and well be getting to that very shortly. But first I want also promote the Barton Workshop who are going to be at Merkin Hall on Thursday night doing pieces of Jerry Hunt, Alvin Lucier and John Cage as well as James

Fulkerson who we are going to hear from now. Now, James Fulkerson is an avant trombonist whose put out a real interesting disc on Etcetera. Its kind of textbook Minimalism but I think its a little bit richer and hes playing at Roulette on Saturday night at 9 p.m. If anybody wants to go give me a call at area code 201 678 7743 and if you cant see that I highly, highly recommend seeing the Barton Workshop at Merkin Hall at Thursday night at 8. So, listen up to some James Fulkerson. If you like it the number is 201 678 7743. Its Unpopular Music Im Kenny G Im here rocking your world until 6. Iannis Xenakis a show of his on Sunday at the 92nd Street Y at 2:00. There will be an interview Mark Swed, uh, interviewing Iannis Xenakis and following that there will be a retrospective of Xenakiss work ranging from I believe 64 to 94 and that piece that we just heard Ionta was recorded in Sorry! It was written in 1964. I dont know if its on the bill but the whole show should be terrific and sort of... youd be foolish to miss this show. Thats Xenakiss first appearance in this country in over 10 years. Its at the 92nd Street Y on Sunday. Before that Yoko Ono from the new Rising Remixes that was Thurston Moores remix and I picked this CD up just this week. It was on sale and I was shocked that it came with a really great CD-ROM like as part of it. So suddenly the outrageous price of CD was like, oh, I get a CD-ROM with this too and its very cool. Its got interviews with Yoko and interviews with Sean and hes got this like really squeaky little high voice and hes kind of pudgy. And theyve got a video, some kind of commercial video. But then the really cool thing is on the CD-ROM theyve also got like all these early Fluxus works of Yokos, all of her text based pieces, you know, like Fly. Its just the word fly on a piece of paper. And theyve got all those and I mean it goes on and on and on. I havent had time to explore it all. But that comes with the

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Rising Mixes and Im every CD should have a CD-ROM included, dont you think? Wouldnt that be great, I mean, wouldnt that be great for something like Harry Partch or John Cage, you know, you get clips of these guys and get pictures of Harry Partchs instruments and Harry Partch explaining them. It call all fit and it was 8 99. It was so cool. So, anyway even if you dont have a CD-ROM player, the Yoko Remixes are terrific. And its got a brand new piece by her called Franklin Summer that is 30 minutes long of Yoko, who performed at the Knitting Factory about a month and a half ago and it was such a good show. I totally loved it but I think Xenakis is going to be equally interesting. Speaking of new records, oh, by the way, its 91 point 1. WFMU in East Orange. Its Unpopular Music Im Kenny G Ill be with you another 2 hours till Nachum comes in and spoils your day. Lets hear something new from David Shea whose got a real interesting new disc out on Sub Rosa and this is something called Locus Solus. And good morning its 5 a.m. at 91 point 1 WFMU in East Orange. Im Kenny G and its Unpopular Music for another hour. We finished that set up with Lol Coxhill. A great record. This is Ear of the Beholder from 1971. And of course, Lol Coxhill with two little pigeons and a great version of Don Alfonso. That was proceeded by Tiny Tim, uh, a Lol Coxhill in his own right with the Star blahblahblah with the Star Spangled Banner his version of course. Proceeded by Charles Ives with a set of Four Ragtime Dances from the Orchestral Music of Charles Ives something new from the Koch International Classics this was the Orchestra of New England conducted by James Sinclair and this is a world premiere recording reconstructed by piano, uh, compositions and bits and pieces of things that were left around from Ives around the, uh, 1920s. A beautiful reconstruction by James Sinclair. Really nice stuff. Before that

Alois Hba the great Czech quarter tone composer. Something from around 1930 we heard the Suite for Quarter Tone Clarinet and Quarter Tone Piano No. 1. That is off of a 3 CD set on Supraphon called Centenary. The name of the composer again is Alois Haba. Crawling With Tarts. We heard an excerpt from their Grand Surface Noise Opera No. 3 Indian Ocean Ship and we began that set with another version of my theme song, the only other one Ive ever found. This is by John McCormack, the great Irish tenor from 1912 I Pescatore de Perles. So, like I said, Im with you... oh! How about at PSA? Lets get this over with and we open up the book randomly a thousand voices against the New Jersey death penalty theres a march and rally Saturday April 20th at 11 a.m. at the New Jersey State Prison in Prin... Trenton. Stop the executions before they start for more information call 908-874-5891 or 210-6422086. Oh, I dont know who this is we dont quite have the, uh, all the liner notes here but I bet it sounds a whole lot to me like Bing Crosby. Sure what are you looking for? Oh, right, it was Sun Ra. It was something called Black Mith from a real cheapy CD. M I T H, yeah. Black Mith. Yeah, hold on let me find it I have it here somewhere. Just go to Tower. Yeah, I got it at the Tower Outlet. Um, its a thing called Historical Masters I think theyve got a bunch of them in. Its on Jazz View, um, its called Historical Masters Sun Ra Foundation Maeght Nights, something like that and its a real like lousy quality CD but is really great stuff. Its really quite wonderful. Maeght M A E G H T Nights, yeah. So check it out there. OK I gotta get on the air. OK, thanks for calling. Bye. And ending up this set about little girls and little boys. The Beach Boys, right? The Little Girl I Once Knew and, uh, we stuck in And Your Dreams Come True in front of that. At the top was Bing Crosby, uh, working on a little

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girl with the worry with the Worry Song. Now, I think its Bing Crosby its one of those things from Thats Entertainment 6 CD and I, you know, we dont even have the liner notes maybe we do but is... who cares? Um, Die Kndel after that with the Kndelpolka from their Overcooked Tyroleans disc on RecRec Records rereleased in this country on the Koch label. Something really strange shows up in this station here its Minga and Eye and this is, um, amazing recordings by the worlds youngest artist Minga, a 10 month old baby girl. Oh man, we get the weirdest stuff here in this station its just it is unbelievable what passes through these doors, staff members included. Donavan after that with his great Superlungs My Supergirl from Barbara from Barabajagal, however you pronounce that. And then the Fugs with Supergirl, their version of Supergirl from the Fugs first album and then again, a couple of things from the Beach Boys. So, Ive got this really wonderful CD at Tower theyre selling all these CDs for really cheap. Its called the Composers In Person Series and this is at the Tower Outlet and its great. You know its all EMI stuff but its all composers conducting their own works playing and conducting their own work and theres like really amazing things there. I picked up this Darius Milhaud CD. And its got a great piece called Suite Provenal on it and it is a real punchy sort of dry sounding recording from 1936. OK.? So, were gonna hear just a little, well I dont know... well hear a little bit of it its just such beautiful stuff. Its Kenny G. Its Unpopular Music until 6:00. See you soon. Heres Darius Milhaud conducting his own stuff. And now it is time to turn to something, wait, something called Sound Letter. Im here for another 15 minutes. Hi baby. How ya doin? Nice to see you. How was your vacation? You were in Hawaii, huh? Take the kids? The wife? The bird? Ah! Youre

not a family man, Nachum! Youre not a family man! Why didnt you take the bird? It wouldve had so many friends there in Hawaii. You got a nice tan. You look like a schvartza. Hey. The audience gets what it pays for, you know? They they they pay for me, man! I raised millions of dollars on the fundraiser for that kind of stuff. Who loves you Nachum Segal? And that does it for me. Ah, at the top of that set was Claude Schyer an excerpt from his Sound Letter. Kiri U U gave us Rontuska 4 and Rontuska 5. Gene Vincent, uh, Be Bop A Lula James Tenney Collage No. 1 and that goes out to Mr. Nachum Segal who actually requested that I play that song. Erik Korngold after that with Ice House and now, ladies and gentlemen, its time for Nachum. See you next week. Its OK, I was just getting ready to take her out. Hey! 7. Ha ha ha ha. Hi cutie! Come here. OK. OK. Happy to have him visit. Cmon and get him. Wanna come in and get him? Its OK. Come get him. Hes checking out my dogs cage. Hes adorable. Were gonna have to run again. Are you around next week? OK, because Im gonna be watching Lois and Dianes dogs all next week. Yeah, and Ill take them Ill take them in the back so OK. Yeah, does he get along with those two dogs? Hes so cute. It didnt happen. Yeah, they misdiagnosed it. Yeah. Yeah. The dog was supposed to be dead a year ago. See you around, OK? OK, come on. You wanna go for a walk? OK. Hey! Stay. Alright. Im gonna get you. Get it. Cmere. Hi baby, come on baby. Cmon! Babette! Cmon Bets. Hey, so see ya. What? Will you take her around the block before you go? Are you gonna come back here? 3:30. Goodnight, sweetie!

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for the last few days. So, hi. How are you? Good. You got a call from MacForce they want to have an interview with you and he says they want you to come tomorrow but first you call him on the telephone but now he says he wants you to come down tomorrow. Um, hi. OK. Yeah, uh, anyway, well see. Well see. So, alright, hi, well see. Suzanne called. You should call her. For no other reason than to get the 100 bucks. Um, Im just walking out so. Yeah, Ill be back. We got to meet these guys in about an hour OK? OK. So let me do that and let me take out the mutt. Shes she I think she needs sort of a... Yeah. Right. Where is this from? Yay! Thats nice. Thats nice. Great. Great for Bob too. I love to see you guys you and Alix and Bob doing so well. Thats wonderful. Listen Cheryl, um, um, what was I gonna say? Wheres my book? Yeah. Oh, good. OK. OK. Alright. Ill be Ill be right back. OK? So, well well be back in time to go together. OK? Oh Cheryl, Im missing the key to Diane and Loiss apartment. You have any idea where it might be? You had it last. Its got a tomato on it. Great. Alright. I just wanted to know. OK. Alright see ya see ya really soon. Shes very friendly. Oh. Oh, shes so brave. Shes brave, isnt she? Yes. Bets. Shes brave. Its good. A lot kids are afraid. Bye. Is that a Brussels Griffen? Border terrier. So cute. You keep an eye on that one. Ha ha ha. The bad girls in the park today. Go on Bets, go get em! Go get them Bets! Who is that? Go get that dog! Go on, go get em Bet! Go on, go get em. Sa! Get em! Get those dogs! Go on! Oh honey! Youre good. Ha. Go get em! Go get em! Go get em! Well, I almost didnt have to pick it up. Cmon honey. Cmon. Hi. Oh, you look pretty. I like that shirt on you. Huh maybe we should look a little maybe we should dress up a touch for Marjorie? Yeah, its cold out. OK. So, well go in about 25 minutes. 20 minutes? How does that sound? How you doin? Hes weird but theyre nice.

Hi! Uh, well, I had my radio show last night. Yes, Im just waking up. No you did not wake me. Im dressed Im drinking coffee. But I havent spoken yet today. These are the first words Im uttering. Hey, so definitely, were having dinner Monday night. Um, now the question is where and when. And and were taking your friend out also. OK? So its our treat please. Youre going to participate by being our our distinguished guests thank you. No more no more said about this please, OK? Its it, pal. No more said. Ill tell you what. Let me come up with a place to eat. Ill speak to my Mom cuz I met your mother and your mother took made me dinner so we will in the very American way right take you out for dinner not make you dinner. Ill tell you what, um, let me speak with her and let me get a time and a place and I will call you back. I know you are. OK. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh yeah. This will be great. Definitely. Definitely. Alright so let me let me do this and let me call you back. Alright? I mean definitely plan like the operas at 8 were probably gonna meet some time close around 6 for dinner. Um, let me see let me see what my family can do. Yes, I will call you before Saturday. Oh, Im just waking up. You know I do this all night radio show you know so.. all night long, yeah. 91 point 1. 9 1 point 1. FM. Wednesday night. Uh, I dont know, what was last night. I cant remember, Tuesday night Wednesday evening 2 to 6. Middle of the night. No I was there last night. This Tuesday. If you cant sleep one night youll turn me on. OK. Ill talk Ill call you back. Later. Bye. There we go. Im just getting ready to take our poor dog out. Yeah but I mean, I want to take her for a walk, you know, I take her up to Washington Square, you know, shes been pretty cooped up

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Theyre like the most sort of real people... yeah, no. Theyre nice. I mean they never found me work because they never had AutoCad stuff but hes good. Talking about what? Reincarnation! Really? Theyre still in business so they must be alright. Well, I mean theyre interesting, you know. Theyre weird. They are weird. But OK. Yeah, why? Yeah, let it go. No, cause I told her I mean I told her that I was getting tired of family shit, you know. Yeah, well, good. She should. We can go, um... Its I think I have the date the date free. Really, its up to you. Lets do the morning that way that way yeah. Well we dont have to meet there. We live together. We can actually get up together and walk over there. Yeah, its no big deal, really. Testing. How do you know that? Ah. Oh, you didnt tell me that. Ah, oh god. Good thing they were here. No. I I I cant make a scan yeah. Hold on a sec. Let me just do this. OK sweetie, wanna head over pretty soon? Just about ready. How about you? Oh, uh, I think those guys have already eaten. Yeah, I dont think its gonna be a big deal. How am I? Am I properly disguised. Do I simply look like I have a Walkman on? Hello. Yeah. Good. How ya doin? Good. Whats up? Ive got the date, uh, set aside for you. Lets see, Im free until 3 at which time I have an appointment. Oh no. Yeah. I told Jon this. I had the whole day free until 3. Yeah. Do you want to how about, uh, Friday afternoon Im free. Oh, whatever you need. Right which doesnt seem possible for you but you want me to set aside the whole afternoon for you? Oh my god. Oh my god. Um, Ill tell you what Ill do. How long you gonna be in town for do you want to do this Monday? Sure, I mean I work for Jon two days a week, uh, whenever Im needed. Uh, part of the job. Well, Wednesdays Im always knocked out because Ive got my radio show and I sleep all day. But otherwise, yeah, Im just around. Um, I can also... OK, Ill tell you what. The

best thing to do is to email me as to your plans. Thats the best way to get in touch with me cause Im always checking it cause I do so much business through the email. Um, so, I will hold tomorrow until 3 for you and then Ill also hold Friday afternoon. OK but yeah I know Jon told me to hold some time for you so Im doin it. And, uh, just email me and Ill email you back. Thats the thats thats the way. OK Ann, look forward to seeing ya. Bye. Oh there was just a message from her. OK lets get goin. I wonder. I wonder. Is this all disguised well enough? Do I look like Im just wearing a Walkman? OK good. No, its a Walkman. Hey, its just a week, you know? Its a pain but its just a week. Cmon, lets go! Alright Bets, please. Its such a good, oh I have a funny story to tell you. So Im sitting there reading right? And, uh, in the park and this lady one of those bitchy ladies in the dog run comes up to me and says excuse me sir, is that your boxer? Im like yeah and shes like it did it over there and I look and theres this big white dog eating Betss shit and I started laughing and I walk over and shes kind of following me and theres the owner of the white dog and they start to pull the dog away from the shit. I said gee why didnt you let the dog finish that way I wouldnt have to pick it up. Ohhh, that didnt sit very well with them. Ohhh, that didnt sit very well with them at all. I got the dirtiest looks. Theres more fights breaking out in that place. Its just unbelievable, really. Hey, this looks really good. Imaginary Landscape for 12 Radios. Thats his thats a very famous piece and then a piece of Ashleys from 63 which could be really great. Actually Im gonna go to this. Oh stop it, you just were like running free! Open up Bets. Just bounding free through the fields of Washington Square and now shes just acting like a total coward. OK. Im tired, hmmm, I slept for a few hours. Its weird. I told Michael Pollak that Id go see John Zorn

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with him at midnight tonight. He calls like I said if anybody can name this composer I was kind of doing my Hitler tribute last night it was all like, you know, Nazi stuff, you know. April, middle of April I always do a Hitler thing. Yeah. And, uh, I said if anybody can tell me who this next anti-Semitic composer is you will win tickets for the John Zorn show tomorrow night at the Knitting Factory. So the phone rings and its Michael Pollak who wants to go to the Zorn show and I said OK what do you win? Do you know who the composer is? He said Ive heard this before but he couldnt figure it out but I said you win anyway and then and then he said then he like, you know, oh do you want to go and Im like, oh yeah, you know, sure, you know, cause Michael has no one to go with and its free tickets and Im like OK, Ill go with you. So then this guy calls up and he says this other guy calls up and I said Michael hold on the other phones ringing. This guy calls up and he says I know who that composer is, its Bernard Hermann. I said well, Bernard Hermann was Jewish. But its a good guess anyway. He said well who was it? And I said it was Alban Berg. Hes says oh, OK, thanks. The phone rings again about a minute later and Im on the phone with Michael and this girl comes on this phone. She says I know who that composer was. And I said is and I said who? Um, Bird or something? I was like, yeah! And then I realized that her friend had just called. I I I just did and I was like I was like OK. I said youre clever though, youre clever. Ill give you tickets to something else. I said that was pretty good. I said youre pretty good, youre pretty good. Oh, the yen is so strong. So, anyway... What? Oh, cause I had heard him talking to some girl in the background when he was I I I just knew it but she admitted it. But I gave her tickets to go see Sue Garner and Rick Rick Browns band tonight at Max at, uh, Brownies. I think she would have

rather have seen John Zorn but she was happy to win some tickets and its, you know, 3 in the morning and I, you know, I could give a shit. Yeah yeah. I mean once when if youre giving away tickets to something with a name you realize a lot of people are listening. Yeah, I got a few phone calls last night, you know, I did a I did a good show. It was pretty nice. I did it I know I did it last year. I did it last year and I said this is in honor of the Fhrers birthday and they said to me and I got like ten calls saying the Fhrers birthday had already passed. Yeah, everybody knows. Maybe well stop in with Marjorie. Maybe we can hit a hit a bunch of galleries with her. That place is so ugly. Yeah. What did it used to be? I just did a real mix. I played everything from the Beach Boys to Xenakis. Yeah yeah, well you should soon if were gonna go away for the summer I dont have that many shows left. No once we find out that shes gonna send us on that day. Oh, well, you gotta find out if theyre gonna take us that day, its a simple as that. Yeah. Yeah take us for July. Great. Well, firm it up as soon as you can so we know what were doing. OK, get ready for Marjorie and Bruce. Shes a shes a trip. Shes a real trip. Good. Were gonna join... were joining these these guys in... well see, maybe well eat I think so. Cheryl Donegan Marjorie Perloff. Do you guys wanna... no problem. I want to see your talk. What time is it? I would love to. Am I invited? What do you mean bombed? We had the... did we have a good lunch? He was really nice. But he didnt he didnt have the edge, did he? Cheryl he was a little soft. She is not soft this one. No well he was nice he was nice but we had a better time before he came I think. I know thats what I kept saying I go OK weve got to... Im Kenneth. This is Cheryl. No, I met her. Shes shown Cheryls work. I wanna see you tonight. I mean, youre not gonna bomb, are you? You dont have to stay up...? Of course we know Watt. Mr.

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Knott and Mr. Watt. We know... Wait a minute. Larry Kramer. Not the AIDS guy. But he he outs people too. No no. Who has the 10 year old kid, Ashbery? I was gonna say... Marjorie. Now do you have a moment for Cheryl to wolf down a sandwich? No no, I mean were here were here to show you the show. Two blocks. Cheryl do you just want to have a soup or something light so we can... Shes a very important busy woman. Ive got a brother in law whose a stockbroker. How was your conversation with Bruce? Hes, oh oh. You got anything new for me? No, I know it all I know it all. We met in art school in 83. Weve been together since 83. I would expect nothing less of you, Mr. Andrews. Oh yeah yeah, youre a benevolent guy. Im glad Im on your good side Bruce. I would not thats right we said this the other day. Oh, lets not get into politics here. We love, we love her name? The only the only name I like better is is better is the gallerist, the former gallerist of Susan Bee named Virginia Lust. But is but is that a great name? We know nothing more about them other than Virginia Lust and Mary Jo Bang. Its good. We have an audience. You know the art world... I I was just going to say the same thing sitting here, the power couple. Well, no, you and Bruce. You and Marjorie. And right you should be. Thats why we like him, right. OK, Bruce do we have time for Cheryl to have something quick to eat or... OK, why why dont why... well eat, well eat after, yeah. Have some bread. No no no. No. No dont... youre being too nice. Ive had lunch. I just woke up. I I did my all night radio show no I did my all night radio show last night. Now listen. Ahhh, it was great. Ulla Ulla Dydo called Ulla Dydo listened she says I dont know what all dat noise vas. Oh good for you. Good for you. What time what time is this up? Really I wanna come. I love what you do. Why must I what do you mean, Marjorie Marjorie, your

your essay in the Beckett book no no no your essay wait a minute Marjorie your essay in the Beckett book the collected the black one changed my life. I loved it. No no, Im serious. I love that piece. Great. Great. What time are you what time are you speaking? What time are you speaking. OK, can I have the address. I will be there. I have an appointment at 5 downtown Ill be up up for that. She might not be the best person to ask. Bruce, wheres Philosophy Hall? OK. OK, Ill find out. Oh, can I have a co can I have a coffee? What do have thats thats do you have a bowl of soup for her? OK. Yeah, no, lets its important that she sees your show. Marjorie what did you think of that guy Davids journal? When I hear the... he was hes bright but hes soft. At MOMA. Marjorie introduced me to this starch. It was a power lunch. What does that mean? You thought I was a WASP? I am. Would I would I... were you disappointed. Were you disappointed. Be honest. Do you wish I was more wispy? You thought this was going to be a very mellow soupy sleepy lunch instead we start slinging gossip. You were gonna Cheryl about a video book. Vocabulary? Of David? He had very odd eyes. The energy level once this guy came once this guy came Marjorie and I were blazing and he loves nature and well... and, yeah, then the energy level just it was still fun but we had to include him in the conversation he didnt know all anybody to dish about. Ay. Bernard Malamud. Philip Roth. Theres no nature there in Las Vegas, perfect. Yes. There you go. We like Dave Hickey. Memorial Day Weekend. You like Dave Hickey? This is good. Lets go out lets go out lets go out to meet him and go out for a reading Bruce. When is he going there? When is he when is he going out there? Are you still carrying this around with you? Im telling you. Its dog eared. She brings it to lunch the other day she hasnt she hasnt cracked it... thats right. It

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was two days ago. I know youre not I know youre not much of a reader. Marjories a strange one, shes really bizarre. How was the Chinese show? Yeah. Oh, CD-ROM... you know Charles told me that Marjorie Marjorie has no world wide web access that she barely knows email and then she tells me shes got a Powerbook with her. Im gonna build you Im building Im building the Marjorie Perloff site. Well, because if he wanted me to put his journal online, believe me, it was going it was going to cost him. But you... Who David? I was? I was gonna do a Terra Nova exactly. Were gonna build the Marjorie the Marjorie the big Marjorie site. The palace. Charles oh Charles really thinks that Marjorie knows nothing about computers hes got the whole big hes got this yeah. I told you how to do it. Marjorie, did you go to Altavista? Remember I told you about Altavista? Yeah yeah. Ahhh. Stockbroker. Hey Bruce, you gonna buy us this coffee or what, buddy? I will. Oh look at this youve got a picture. Bruce is buying us Bruce is buying us coffee. Marjorie bought us lunch the other day that was. I thought the food was good at that place. It was a nice environment sure it was a nice environment. I tell you I got pretty drunk. I got. We were gossiping like mad. How long is your paper tonight? This is good. This is good. Can I tape it? Yes I will, of course, I tape everything. Great great. So this will be good. We havent heard from Ulla. Cheryls got an opening tonight. I know it Im seeing you. Its business. Maybe youll sell something. Yes, well give you the URL so you can go go look at Cheryls project on the web but youve got to download the new Netscape. No no the new one that has reads Java. Do you know about Java? OK, you have to put the new Netscape on. The Power PC. So, I will come see you. How was the food here? It was good. Its a nice place, isnt it? And then were gonna go see Zorn at midnight. Uh, hes just, uh, doing, uh,

another absinthe did you hear about this? You should have seen these two they they looked like a Picasso painting the two of them Lapin Lapin Agile. Both of them. Hows your French. Lets go. From here on in youve got to... I love it. Dont orchestrate. Me, dont orchestrate? Thats like saying... you yeah you should have seen these two on absinthe the other night. Yeah I couldnt... I think of Marjorie I think of... You did? I did the drawings for it. You dont know it. I did the drawings for it. I knew Bruce through you. Yeah, it was. Thats how I met Bruce through you. Through Geoff Young. Geoff Young from The Figures. Yeah yeah yeah. Were all going. Lets go. Yeah. This is what I I had to consume major amounts of alcohol to keep up with this. Cheryl. Who does she remind you of a little bit? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, its very art world. Yeah really, isnt it? Who does it remind... we just go go full speed gossip and... yeah. Thats how I know thats how I know thats how I know how to how to, uh, handle this. Yeah, even Ulla, even Ulla is very different than Marjorie. This is like, you know who its like shes like, uh, uh uh um, we were with a couple who collected art that moved to Florida Rubell! Like Mira Rubell. Shes just like Mira, yeah, shes like these collectors. Cohen. Yeah, I mean, I know this. I mean its very Jewish. I can play it I can I can play it. Its Too Jewish, yeah. I did. I gave her a card. Maybe Ill tell her again. Its pretty maxed out maxed out. Well, I married a Catholic. Both of you both of you both both both of you both of you are are so amazingly Jewish. Both of you are so New York. Are they honorary Jews? I know. I know he was so good. Lets go David. I mean, youre right. That was the problem with... Marjorie. What were you saying? Really. I got her daughters book. I got Nancys book. Would you please give me her email address? Where is she now shes at the Getty. I want to I want to can I? Will you send it to me?

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Do you think wed get along? Her book is very good. OK, why why dont we... listen, its better than Vienna. Did he tell you about his Lulu treatment? OK, were gonna stop at two galleries before we go to Cheryls that are on the way. OK? You guys wanna pop in and see a couple of shows? Shes around the corner there are two shows on the way to come see. Cheryl dont you think that this gallery is good? Were going there. Were going there. Were going there. Yeah, Margo called to make a studio visit with Cheryl she went back to Baltimore. Yeah that was... David. Yeah we were, like, dreading the arrival of David. Yeah. I dont think that his music is very good. I have a sense that hes a proposal. I have a sense that its lousy. Lets stop in here first. Yeah, I wanna I wanna see... Oh look at this one. Wow. Its an artist, a young artist from Japan called Mariko Mori whose get get getting lots of attention now her her. What do you what do you make of this? Im more intrigued by this. This is, uh, this her. She puts herself she poses in the pictures. Yeah yeah yeah. This is intriguing. Like, what is going on with this Cristo curtain? Is that a Cristo curtain? Oh, its all indoors. I got it. Its indoors. Huh. Its big photo shoot and this is like a backdrop and then these guys... its its heres the backdrop. This is in a studio because you can see the place that its... I dont know I cant make it out really. It very good. Interesting. Youre right. So, its just a yeah lots of... its weird. Its like the Surrealism of Japan. I think Japan must be a fairly surreal place. No. Have you? And? Alright. Cheryls shows better. Hi. Kenny. Oh. Weve met weve met weve met. Right. Isnt that cool? Hes a hes great. Yeah yeah. Its very nice. Nice to give words about words. What have you been doing? Were gonna stop at were gonna stop at OK one more. One more before Cheryls. Come. Difficult. Is she difficult? Not somebody like that. You want

somebody who talks. This is these all. These are all language paintings. Theres some word in there. There are words in here and I think its... yeah yeah yeah. What do we have here. What do you think? What is the word in here, babble? Im with you. Gorky. Yeah. Arshile Gorky. Yeah, I know. I like the Japanese better. Lets go see Cheryl. Shes the best. I like coming around with you guys. Who are you talking to? Whats what what what what makes her so good? Is she a great writer? Cher. How how is this insane? You dont? I didnt like Suzannes show. Yeah. What? Shes what? So, big deal. Hey look at that. Here comes the dealer. Hey Stefano. How ya doin? Exhausted. I got 4 hours of sleep. I had my radio show last night. Yeah, come over here. We want to hear. Yeah, come. Do I need to? Do I need to, seriously, to you? You know, I will if you want but, you know, like... Now would you like an explanation? No, seriously, these are the 3 paintings that Cheryls made these are the results. This is the process. This is the camera. If you look closely youll see its tied around her neck so every time she makes a move the camera pushes. Uh, shes right shes shes got a, uh, shes looking at a camera at a self-portrait of herself on the T.V. shes painting herself looking at the T.V. but the camera is looking at her. Shes painting this one above her. And these are all self-portraits of Cheryl. Yeah yeah. Theyre all her. Thats all like her like like, you know, in sort of a hall of mirrors of her. Shes wearing the camera. Arent arent these these shots just incredible? I mean, theyre really... yeah yeah. Thats why the paintings are so weird. Shes painting on top of herself and she just keeps crawling around and smearing it as shes painting exactly exactly you got it this is what it is evoking. Hmmm. Yeah yeah. Theres a mixture of kind of like disease and eroticism. Shes pulling the camera around. There she is theres the portrait that shes painting.

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And the actual the actual painting that came out of it. Hows it look Andrea? Right. So I dont know in terms of shots. Its an hour. Each tape is an hour and its just a duration of her of her creating the work over the course of an hour. Yeah. This is the cot piece yeah. So whats the news? Good. Congratulations. So, I was just explaining to Marjorie maybe you can elaborate shes shes shes... the marks on your body the marks on the canvas. That really turns self portraiture on its ear traditionally, doesnt it? Can we show Marjorie, uh, K.M.R.I.A? Do you have just another second to look at something else? Thats... shes a very important literary academic critic. Maybe we can show her show her something in the back? Shes really pretty... well, no, but its its... been hitting the books Stefano. Lets go in the back and and look. So, have you have you come up with a place to eat? Stefano, I know youve been I know youve been obsessed about it. The video, yeah. You may want to cue it up and roll it for her. How you doin? Busy? Whos is this? Well I knew. Well, not really. I could tell by her red red... Here Marjorie, have a seat. From Joyce, from Ulysses. Thats a good question, actually. This would have been good this would have been good at Rolyholyover. Green. Oh thats right. Our problem with nature. Uh, her friend another video artist whose work is interesting to know is Alix Pearlstein. Interesting, huh? Yeah, well right. Its more complicated, right. Uh, just more of her shorter early work, you know, the kind of... uh, probably Head, uh, some of the ones you saw at MOMA. Well, its also the time that all the ads were out. I guess it was for Heineken, it was for Becks and painters downtown pouring a beer and surveying their work. It was the same time. I dont know, I like it. When this video when this video hit everybody I was like Im the luckiest guy in SoHo. I was like I was like king, you know. So how you doing for time? Give

em some language. Listen listen seriously, how you doing for time? Oh, look whos talking. Whos socially challenged? Yeah. Right, socially challenged, yeah. Yeah, thats for sure. I vouch for that. Were going to Greece. Next month. The video about me reading my work. Its very good, isnt it? Did you go see my Too Jewish exhibit? Youre staying right next to it. Remember I gave you the card? The Jewish Museum. When are you going back anyway? Uh huh. And thats it? Youre flying back from Buffalo? Great. Too Jewish. The card that I gave you. Oh, no, it has my image on it, yeah. Where are you staying. I wont be insulted. I havent been to the show. No and and I probably dont like it for the same reasons you do. You know, its the high highlight of the show. You got a Z on the line. Tituba. Where was Tituba from? Yeah, she was in like like The Crucible. Right. Right right. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. That was good. Youve aged beautifully. You know the only time I saw you was on the Cage video. No, you look much better now and and no you look much better now. I think it was a weird angle. They were like shooting from below they were like sort of yeah... yeah, I mean, Id be too if like, but but... when you walked into that guy Mitch. Corber. I know and you I said like oh she looks great. I was I was I hadnt seen you. Cage. Made this big Cage, yeah. Ah. You know its not a David and Eleanor Antin its not a David and Eleanor scene is it? Is it better is it better than that? Is it better than that? Yeah. Yeah. It makes me feel better. We were gossiping the other day. Hey Michelle, how ya doing? Good. What? Twice in one week. Wonderful. You have to go over to Lex, yeah. The 6 train. Yeah. I have an appointment. What are you doing? But Marjorie, the new work is better better than the old stuff, dont you think. Its more complicated... Yeah. Im Im glad. Yeah. Ill see you tonight. Im coming to I will not miss that

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tonight. Let me let me walk out with. Ill talk to you later. Ill be in my office, yeah. Youre not mean, youre honest. We we can talk about this. Thats putting it nicely. Horrible. Yeah yeah. Right. Yeah Johannas great. We well walk over to West Broadway. Well catch a cab there. Its fine its fine no its fine. So hes like sacrificed his own work for this? Yeah. Is that right? Huh. All for all for the collaboration with her. Oh Cheryl, yeah. Listen Marjorie, Ill see you tonight. Taxi! Taxi! See you tonight. OK? Talk to you later. Marjorie, see you at 7 OK? Hey thanks for the coffee guys. Testing. Hey hey cmon cmon now. She still here? OK. Yeah. Oh god, whew! Oh boy, thats exhausting, yeah. Thats why thats why I had to get drunk. I mean shes so intense. Oh, she loved your work. Oh yeah. No no I meant no shes so excited to see you no she she just said as we were walking out she said shes brilliant and she loved the new piece. This is going to, uh, this really gonna have legs she said she really loved it, you know, she loved the earlier works but she really thought these... Yeah yeah. Shes so excited she was just in her cage at home. Yeah she destroys the house if we dont lock her up when we go out, yeah. Destroy things. Usually Cheryls shoes. Listen, Ive got to get going, uh... Um, so what are you doing? Youre... shes such a charmer. Shes such a charmer isnt she. Ill roll at your feet, Margaret. I love you. Ill doing anything for you. Shes such a charmer. Look at this. Yeah. Thats a good story. Yeah. Theyre all different. They all have their own personality. Yeah. So listen, so anyway Cher what what are you up to youre just gonna talk to Stefano and... whats going on. OK, what time is your thing? Did you sell a couple of videos? Great. Good. Good. Youll make it back. Yeah, its great. Gut. She is intense, isnt she? Theyre both intense. My friends, theyre both fucking like... Was I going crazy with her? Was that like... Alright Im

gonna take her. Ive got an appointment at 5 in my office. Oh, thats Hard Press nonsense. See you later. Ah, Ill see you later Ill letchya know whats going on. Ah, Im supposed to go see John Zorn. Im not sure if Im gonna make it. You wanna come see John Zorn at midnight. I dont know if Im gonna make it. Let me lets talk later OK? OK. I gotta get going I to get... OK. Bye. Cmon Babette. Cmon. Bets, come. Cmon. Cmon. How you doin? Do you sell microcassettes? How long do you have the... Only 60s no 90s? OK, Ill take uh, uh, just the cheaper one, whatever you have. Ill take the TDK. Uh, sure. I dont need a bag. Thanks. Uh, what kind of muffins are these? And that one? OK thats what these are too? Uh Ill Ill have a, uh, mi, uh, Ill have a choc, uh, a mixed berry. Thanks. Its a boxer. Babette. You got it. Alright. Could I get a regular coffee please? Yeah. Thanks. How you doin? Alright. Cmon. Alright. How ya doin? Just like your hot cells. She really this elevator. You guys get any packages for me? Did Jimmy drop did Jimmy come by yet? Oh he hasnt been by yet. I got Word 6 oh 1 you want it? Um, I bought it I shared I split the cost with somebody Ill get the original discs back and give it to you. I got here you want the program now, you want the Word? Oh, youre working with someone. Oh, I had to buy the whole thing because my mine corrupted so... 6 oh 1 on a Power Mac it flies. I heard yeah yeah no this is good. See you later. Hello. Hey Jim. What a howl what a howl shes got, huh? How you doin man? Pretty busy pretty busy man. Ill catch you later. Hey there. Hey cmon in cmon in. Watch the dog food. How you doin? Pretty good. Pretty good. Trying to figure out a little trick on this thing hold on a second. Lets try this. I got new shoes Im breaking them in. Oh boy, I guess Ill pick this up some other time. I dont get it. Did we book bookmark your we did not bookmark the, uh,

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site. Do you have the URL on you? You dont. It was a little complicated, uh... OK. You dont mind the dog, do you. OK, great I cant believe I didnt... OK law. Is it NYU law? I dont think its gonna be law edu. Its probably gonna be NYU dot law dot edu. OK. Law dot NYU dot edu I know, uh, no cause its got to have a, uh, slash. Slash expert, uh, this is crapshoot, lets see... look at that! OK, so you you. Yeah. Yeah. Let me. OK. let me also correct that for you. Its http OK now, its a colon oh OK, well, I should do it for myself www NYU edu dot expert underscore evidence OK, so how you doing? Oh, OK, well. Its tough. Well we tried the sound. You know somebody can just just just toss it under the door, you know, I dont even have to be here if you want to come by somebody wants to come by or Ill come by your place it really doesnt matter. Its gonna be fine I should be able to read that. You know what happened its its its attaching a document now did you configure your Netscape mail remember we were looking at that? And you dont use Eudora, you use some other system, right? Do you use Eudora to look at your mail. Yeah, alright, so were not speaking the same language here. Lets lets lets not worry about that for the moment. Lets lets focus on conceptualizing the site. I have to be up at Columbia by 7 so, um, lets do that. OK, so. Heres some books. There you go. This so nice with Netscape mail you can get your mail in Netscape and then any time anybody puts a little http there it you click on it and you go. Yeah yeah. Nice? So I can just go oh heres the site this is my work site and if I click on that this is what we were trying to access it WFMU that you could ac hold down that time. I dont know why you couldnt get that. But this is sort of like my company home page. Its got that, its Alfred Jarry and here you get all the links to oh you got through... Got it. Got it. OK. OK so this let lets do this. Lets look at pictures. Lets

think about oh this is terrific. Wow! Right. OK. Terrific. Huh, arent they great. Look at the size of these things arent they just lovely? So now heres like the third class now these look like paintings these look like mostly all paintings. I think we... I think I you know what I think Id like to do? I think Id like to make it very lithographic. Um, because paintings, unless you have real full color plates arent gonna come across but this is gonna look terrific in grays in in tans. Ive been actually thinking about this and Ive been really into it and we can sort of colorize it and sort of tans and browns and cream colors and. Make the whole thing look like a like a portfolio of drawings, you know, Im really excited Im. This is gonna be something really brand new for me and I was like been working on it in the back of my mind. Theyre amazing theyre all so great. Some of them to me it sort of looks like an image of power I mean Im sitting here just just objectively. Sure, I mean if you dont have the commentary. This is this is just bizarre. But now it kind of looks like shes like the strongest one there and these guys are just grouchy. Let me bookmark that. Oh, you did OK. No no these are all all law this hat signifies lawyer, huh? Just put a hat on them. What do you what do you see what image do you do you, lets see, to you what image here is is is reading the strongest as a matter of fact youd like to see a variation on the first thing you enter into the site. Um, what what could what image or face or just just sort of an iconic, um, thing that has meaning to you in relation to this work in relation to this site. Maybe we can start start with with something that that means... OK, um, was call a work by. You know what you should, yeah, just keep keep marking those. Those faces are pretty terrific see this is what I was thinking of doing an icon is like cropping this and putting it behind a a really a a colored background that will take us some-

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where. Or or, you know, something like this. If we begin to just lets OK, lets do this, lets always in this scene in this site, um, the hat will signify lawyer I believe, right. So each, whether we put a womans face or a childs face or a dogs face, lets use the cap. Does that sound like a good idea to use these caps to connote... Yeah yeah. Yeah. God, theyre so beautiful. You know what Im gonna do? Im gonna Im going to intuit through the through this and I think what Ill just do is Im gonna spend a little time looking at this and feeling this. I can come up with some sort of roughs and I can actually put them on the web so we dont really have to so we dont have to meet because I mean thats I mean we can meet but I can throw them up and say check this out and put them on a private in a private place where nobody knows about it but you and Ill say oh, have a look, you know, is this the feeling we want, um. I think were gonna have to go from there I think were were gonna... what if we took an image like this and put one of the hats on it there, you know. You know? This is this is terrific. I mean, look at these images, these are really great. I mean look at this this this character. Is this great? This would be a terrific icon if we put a hat on her. Some can have hats and some can not. We have theoretical foundations 2 3 4 5 6 7. OK, so weve got 7 areas, right, uh, on the next level? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Lets come up we will come up with 7 separate character icons for each one. Um, and those will kind of be our our guiding lights to each one whether we decide to put a a scroll bar down the side. I mean something like this is really great. You know, I mean, speaking out of several sides of your mouth, I mean this this is this would make a wonderful icon, wouldnt it? Great. This is something were going to want to have on the site, I assume. Right, OK. You like that you know its funny because well I saw I actually I kind of went over a little bit to your side

too. Ill Ill show you I found another place where a friend just started a discussion group and he opted not for an email but for a discussion thing like youre having so maybe I can show you that and... youre going to have to talk to your technical person about that. Um, Ill show you this. My machine is so screwed up Macintosh hasnt perfected their system communication software so that I can only get up on the web once and then Ive got to restart my machine. I mean its its just its a big its a bug. Its a big bug I mean I can, yeah. I can go on forever but once Im down if I want to get back up again its configuration doesnt work so Im constantly restarting my machine and its its a bug Im sure they will fix it because Im not the only person having this problem but its, its so annoying Im telling you. What happened was it all came in in like code. They should be send as attachments and for some reason it it came in as raw code. Thats thats thats complicated right now. I agree with, you know, I agree with that I still agree with it. Let me show you this one this one place that my friend just got up. Actually I, you know, I checked in there a few days ago and there was some responses and I dont know, Ill look, and I was like OK some but well have to speak with, um, with the technical person. Have you been in touch with him since our meeting other than just to send him that email? Great great. OK, I think well well set up a tech meeting. You you dont even need to be there for that, um, I can just meet meet with these two people and, um... I can just, you know, connect with these two people and then we can kind of see whats available and and, uh, and then we can all meet after that. OK, so so weve got these 7 large categories. OK so these guys these two are gonna fall fall under this one. Ongoing is gonna be one of the big ones and then proposed and co... ongoing will fall under. This is actually going to go

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under here and this is going to go under. OK then weve got our header our big ones are going to be theoretical, proposed, research and then proposed? Oh well, a lot of people are actually talking about this. Here here it is. This is the uh what we were discussing. This is an ongoing discussion about these things about Deleuze. People are really participating. Huge. The elements on this... the URL. Right. You can poke through this Im not quite sure how its all working but its it seems it seems active it just it just went up. OK, so... OK. Thats gonna be hard. I think were just going to have to pick some colorful characters and add some text just where it says that yeah. Why dont you read me off just the 5 categories just. I just want to write them down for my own to be very clear about it. OK you wanna lets do this. Let me get the at this stage let me do this much. Let me look through let me create these 5 icons. Let me create sort of an opening page and and and offer them up to you as sort of suggestions. Well maybe modify well need to change things will need to be, you know, but Ill get a visual sense of the site and then once we decide on the top layer the top two layers the first one layer will be the opening page, uh, the second layer will will be, you know, going to each each one of these things. And after we kind of get that then we can go to the next layer deeper. Instead of me trying to comprehend everything, you know, I think let treat it like layers, you know, and we we can just continue to kind of dig a little bit deeper and and a little bit deeper. This is, you know, this is how I I did the other the other pages as well so let me before, I dont want to confuse myself I wanna remain real clear and I think thats a big chunk of work to just get that far, in other words for me its like visually I want to get the color scheme I want to get the feel of it, um, also offer a few different ideas for you and and then once we say OK I like

that then we can start to go into the next layer and look at images for the next layer and feel for the next layer. OK, so, um I feel like. Well, um, I feel like I dont know how much more I should take on at the moment. I think I should thats like a big its a big thing to get that done and in the back of mind Ill keep uh, uh, a tech... I want to have a tech meeting, um, and see whats possible I mean I want to the foundations for the lower levels and how were going to make the whole thing work. But what I can do sort of over the next week is to create a mood for the site which is what I do best, which is what Im best at. And, yeah, I Im I mean this is really rich and theres a lot to mine here and I kind of have a have a strange sense of how it might work, and you know, itll take a lot of, kind of, just work to kind of get that right. So lets just work on the very surface for the moment. OK. Its great, yeah. Right so its a, uh, what is it sort of a promotional tool for students, uh, prospective students and faculty? Let me just store that. Let me store that, you know, look, any anythings possible, um, thats the way I I like to work, you know, we can anythings possible here. Why not, you know? Really its like why not, you know? I have let me just see if I have make sure I have the... I know where it is. Here they are. Uh, this is Nichol. Nichols email address. Why dont we lets send him an email right now. Eudora. Whats the name of... OK OK, um, Id like to... OK? This is too much fun. Thats good. Well get that well get that going. As a matter of fact itd be great great. Hes at NYU, right? So he can just come down here or I can go see him. Let the two of us like like meet and get it together and stuff like that, OK? OK, yeah yeah. Will he know? Nichol? Alright. I I think, um, weve got enough to start. Ive actually just finished a, uh, big update and a large job so that I could I could get I could get spend some time to work on your stuff. So, Ill be start-

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ing this I think, probably probably it it looks like it looks like Monday I can get I can really get going on this and Ill letchya know Ill just kind of keep you up to date and, uh, Im really excited Im really I just... Oh oh! I have a question for you the Workways logo the word Workways, is it do you have any kind of idea of a logo for that? Do you guys have a logo already or OK. So, maybe Ill just have it in with the site something that looks kind of hand drawn and hand done maybe a little smeary. You know, something that looks like its been worked on, uh, you know, like something beautifully, uh, you know, constructed, handmade. Try to have the site have a slick, yet handmade look. User really user friendly really beautiful but also looks like it couldve, well like Daumiers drawings, it could be done by hand. Yeah, this is going to be really new for me. Im really excited. OK? OK. Good. No problem. Look, lets just lets just lets just, uh, get going. Ill take good care of these books. OK, great. Well, this is really exciting. Im very excited and Ive got this material to look at and Im all set. Actually, itll become more interesting as I move into it. Right now I I just have a rough sense of how things are, you know, how things are... I always start this way then I end up in the middle of it and Im like. Sure, sure, its just more material. Im going to need it at some point its the sooner the better so, um, if you want to drop them by if you want me to come by, um, the best, um, a student or something to come by... This is great. They can they can just throw it in the mail slot here. Theres nobody here but me. OK Peggy, um, Ill be in touch and I look forward to getting going. See ya. Go on, get in your box. Good girl. Ill be back soon sweetie. Ill be back, well, Ill be back in a few hours. Kenzo. Hey, listen, listen, I lost that slip where shes talking what is it called Philosophy Hall? Yeah, I know. Should I just wing it? I I lost the fucking thing. Oh I

can try to call her but, yeah, thats right shes probably at home. Yeah yeah. OK. Yeah, no, I know I got to get going. Well gossip about this later but it was fun. Yeah shes shes really crazy. Shes nuts. You guys had a good time? Yeah, shes just like, shes so weird, isnt she? Later. Ill call Ill call ya later tonight or something. Or are you around tomorrow? Yeah, later. Here we go. Yeah, yeah thanks. Thats not us. Doin a little bit better now, hey. This is luxury. How you doin? Im looking for the Philosophy Hall? Alright. I go. A left. The library? Next to the library? Thanks a lot. Marjorie, it seems like it seems like, um, the type of encryption that youre talking about is happening today daily on the computer networks and, uh, there was a, you know, the type of encryption that youre talking is about is like an analog encryption, a physical encryption, as opposed to a digital encryption now. There is there was a Fluxus piece that was done where a gesture was substituted for an alphabet so that a theatrical piece was composed, you know, by way of letters and sentences. And it seems like with a simple program today an entire meaning can be shifted either randomly or very specifically, you know, with just one keystroke. Really if you, only if you were, you know, on the end that had that key. This is specific communication, direct communication but to a very specific, you know, point. Yeah, yeah. We were just down there today with Marjorie, yeah, for lunch with Bruce and... How are you doin? Yeah, I havent seen you in so long. Cause I saw Bruce today and he said he hadnt seen you in a while either. Enjoy this? Well, I know I know. We we we talked about that. Yeah. Yeah. Is that right? Really? Hmm, thats good. Oh god, that was a lot to take in. You know, whenever youre with her... Why, walking into this? Oh you... Oh is that right? Oh I havent... its been about 12 or 13 years since I have. But its OK, Id go out of my way to listen to her.

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I mean, you know, its just such good stuff. I love I just love her take. How you doin? Shes good. Um, hum. I have I have. Yeah good. Whats your relation to youre not youre long out of school. So in Comp Lit or is this part of Marjories part of I mean is this part of what you do when youre in Comp Lit? Wow. Last time I saw you was at the Michael Snow thing. It was pretty nice, wasnt it? Yeah, yeah. The what? Wheres Hollis Frampton? Where now? Is he? We dont know. Cheryl and I were asking each other this question. Its a great name but you dont know what, you know, you never hear anything. Yeah. OK. Yeah yeah, its a great name, its like Peter Frampton and Hollis Frampton. No... well, also of the age when Peter Frampton came alive. Yeah, me too. I got out in 79. Yeah, so its perfect. Yeah its interesting, its just one of those names where you wonder, you know, Michael Snows still around some of those great names and you just dont know what happened. Yeah, its one of those names you see on paper but you dont really see anywhere else. We went the... uh, next night to the Knitting Factory to see Michael Snows improv thing and that was that was OK. Yes yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, Cheryl too her being so involved with video its like an education her studios like one block away from it. You know, its temporary, but what isnt, you know? Yeah, hmmm. Thats what, you know, thats what happens. Thats what happens. Unfortunately Im paying rent. Cheryl and I are paying rent. Yeah, this sounds like the lecture. This was good. Did you enjoy this? Yeah, I did too. Yeah, yeah, no shes shes... important. Ulla! Ulla! Dont leave. Yeah, if it makes it out. Its being held up, you know. So, it was good to see you. See you around, OK? What are you doing? You want to get a coffee? With, uh, Marjorie? With... ohhh. OK. No no no. Thats nice. Thats nice. No you should. Um, well listen, you know,

lets hang out or something soon, you know? Um, why dont you come down and see Cheryls show well get together. You feeling alright? You look OK, yeah, you look fine. No no no. You look really healthy. Really healthy. Didnt she send you a card. I thought she might have... well, shes in charge of that mailing list. Good. Good. Good. Yeah, so youll enjoy it. Its very serious and very good work. Um, Im finished its being published. The book is being published. Uh, the book, oh my own 600 page is done and its being released by The Figures this summer and um, theres a big article on it in Art In America this month. In Art In America on the book this month and some visual stuff Ive done as well. Ill get it Ill get you a copy of that. Yeah, this current month. OK. Alright, everythings good. I guess well just catch up. Give me a call, uh, Im going to see Xenakis this Sunday which I think should be very good. You know theyre interviewing him for at 2:00. You know you know about the show. I think it should be I think it should be really amazing, actually. That was good. That was good. That worked. That worked. Um, so the Xenakis show should be really great. Um, I saw the Ustvolskaya show up at Merkin last Saturday night that Continuum put on. Im very interested in her work. Tomorrow is the Barton yeah Barton Workshop and I dont think that Im going to be able to make it, uh, I am just... What opening? OK, I have to be somewhere at 7:15 tomorrow night but I am sort of probably free if you want to have a coffee. If not, it may be too much. You know what it may be too much. Its no theres no rush theres no rush. OK, um... with Marjorie? We had lunch... we had lunch on Monday and that was really nice at the MOMA. Shes shes fun. Weve been in correspondence. Shes written about my work and Ive written about hers and and, uh, certainly have read all her books but this is the first time weve met in the

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flesh. Its really good. In the contact. The lecture was very good very rich. OK. Youre feeling better. Will do. It was wonderful. Nice to see you. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. OK, we will do. Do you know is there a mens room on this floor somewhere? OK. Ill go down. OK. Hey. Oh god after that is uh. Where do you go? How do you like it? I I study aikido so thats... she goes to New York Sports Club. Theres one on Reade St. and another on Christopher. Yeah. Who do you do yoga with. Uh huh. There you go. No it doesnt. No it doesnt I dont think its... right right right. Roberta goes there. She told me she goes there. Its such a small world everywhere I mean, like, you know, the fact that I like went up here and knew that Id know a bunch of people is not surprising. I think shes extremely rare. I dont know too many people who are promoting that type of work. You know, and that work is like long finished, you know, it was canned many many years, you know, like it became a movement and finished as a movement many years ago. Yeah, Im so removed from academia, you know, that I the woman that I was talking to is really interesting the older woman with gray hair. I should have introduced you. Her name is Ulla Dydo. Yeah. Thats what she does, yeah. No, she hates it. She hates academia. Shes real yeah yeah. Shes the person, yeah. You know, weve become like really good friends over the years you know I I really just adore her and shes another person, you know, loves art loves artists and loves experimental... you know shes one of the sort of 70s people. She really made the scene in the 70s I think, you know, like part of that real kind of downtown scene in the 70s like Kitchen scene, and also a very very serious scholar but independent. Yeah its really nice. Johanna, sure I do, sure. He was just citing Marjorie was just citing Johanna and I was wondering does anybody here know who Johanna is? Did she say Johanna in

the beginning? She said Johannas last name? She said I think she was answering your question oh Johannas work I was like oh I know... yeah right right. Johannas also a friend of mine, you know, these are all people that I... Shes nutty I mean I dont I like her visual work. I think they look good. I dont think they read particularly well. I mean I love her aca her academic books are OK. Thats really really good yeah yeah yeah. Yeah she just put out A Century of Artists Books which was... Oh, its, you know, I mean if youre into artists books its its a weird little corner of some weird world. Hes a good writer. Oh she hasnt seen them? Yeah I I I have all of my friends in the writing world have them from the day. So Ive seen them, oh Ive hung out with them oh yes they do. Do you know who has the whole set of them? John. Do you know the sculptor? Hes sort of a formal and stodgy sculptor, um, but he was around I guess way back when and has this great collection of stuff like that. I didnt know I didnt know you were interested in this type of work. On what? Well that seems more interesting. Whats Warhols novels did you read the article Raphael Rubinstein in Art in America about me, uh, Landers and Joseph Grigley about the novel the written work as an autonomous work of art? Come over here cause this is crazy. Yeah, but the trains are screwed up. Raphael this month in Art In America is writing about the same thing the written work the production the novel should no longer be seen as some sort of odd side project but as an independent work by the artist themselves. I just finished writing a 600 page book of experimental writing. And Im not Im not Im just it it just happens that that I think youd be interested you know Raphael. Raphael Rubinstein a, uh, an editor at Art In America. But its interesting to me what were Warhols novels? Just just yapping? Its a what book Grove? No, I never knew about that. Thats fascinating. As an artist this has

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been my problem. No prob no no no no no. No problem at all. No problem at all. But Stein was was the art world of the 70s. Thats why Ulla thats why why I connected Ulla in that place. I know, undoubtedly. Well, it is written it is its its its its written I think in a lot of stuff from that period. Oh Liz Im so sorry I didnt I didnt introduce you right then and there to Ulla and I would be pleased to make an introduction. Oh but I this is this is good stuff because Ulla could tell you. You know because they started organizing these Making of American reading at Paula Cooper in the 70s. Dick is a Dick is a dear friend of mine. A very good friend of mine. He has an opening May 4th. Why dont why dont we meet up there and I could intro Id be pleased to introduce you two. Its at some gallery youve never heard of I mean Dicks real off the beaten track. I just built a website for him. No no no shes a dear friend also. Hannas totally cool shes really interesting yeah you should you should know Hannah. Shes totally shes so cool. Really theres a book. Right right right. Right. You dont know Rubinstein at Art In America. You would you would have a lot to say to Raphael because hes a poet and, uh, you could he could really dialogue about literary works from the 60s. These are my friends. These are all people I love. What? Yokos there? Well, I dont know she was in there she was in there right when it was all happening. Her early work, you know, all of her work is terrific. We just we just saw her at the Knitting Factory. I was really see Im DJing at FMU so Im playing, you know, Im playing all of this, you know, all of this material is all coming to me. Dick is sending me tapes and Allison is giving me things and Jackson Mac Low and Ive got a stack of Fluxus work that Im always playing. What? I do overnights I do all night, uh, Tuesday nights to Wednesday last last night I did all night radio yeah. On what? Well Marjorie, you know, is just a

major exception. Yeah. Is she faculty there? Yeah, I would love to think that everybody is like Marjorie out there you certainly have. I hang out I read at the Ear Inn. Well, I know Charles Bernstein. Hes what? Yeah but he has the tradition of literary stuff. Hes what. Oh, no no. Yeah. No. I like Kev Kevin and I know his work. Hes really cool. Him and Dodie, yeah. Yeah, well I work for a book I just typeset a book of Killians I work for Hard Press. I also work for Sun & Moon. Um, I also work for Dick Higgins, uh, press called Left Hand Books. Uh, who else do I work for? I work for Granary Books too. I build websites for all these people. Yeah, thats where Marjorie thats what Im doing. So, um, and so actually its, you know, its its all thats been interesting I just typeset a big book of Killians. You know Lingo magazine? Like like did you see Eileens page there in the most recent one with the stripes I did that yeah, sure the CD is nice too. Thats interesting. Thats really interesting. But we should should do you have an work for Lingo? Would you be interested in writing, uh, writing some essays or something or giving us... keep it in mind, yeah definitely, I mean theres a, you know, we could use we could use really we could use some use some up there. Yeah. Yeah. I love Abby, yeah. Abbys sad about it to I think. Like Lyn Hejinian. Well, you know, the scene here is completely completely heterosexual, I mean theres not Ive noticed this theres not one on the New York quote Language poet Ear Inn scene theres not one gay person. I think its really really weird. Ive always said that. Abby is Abbie is right. Oh, I love Melissa, yeah. You know I just typeset a book of um, of um, blahblahblah, Hard Press is doing a book of the uh, god I just did her book, wait! She worked right up there great erotic lesbian stuff. You put her in that anthology, uh. Linda! Linda! I hung out with her I just I just like I just put her whole book together. Shes

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doing a CD-ROM for Hard Press and its interesting, you know, its a crossover. Lindas wild. Yeah but shes not I mean... thing than a Language poetry thing but its bland here its dead. Its dead here no no the scene is really quiet I mean I Im Im disappointed by it. But, you know, what else is there? Where else is experimental writing happening right now in this city? I certainly dont think its happening at the Nuyrocian Cafe. No, I mean I want to support it because I mean its essentially alright but... Listen where are we where are you gonna change what are you gonna do? I have to go to Broadway and Houston. Good for you. Which place? I play it on my show, yeah. Actually if you go to Academy you can pick it up for really really cheap. Oh no they often have stuff. Do you have a turntable? John Lindell loves this kind of stuff too, did you know that? We see John at new music things Im going to this were going to this Cheryl and I are going to the Xenakis show on... Iannis Xenakis? The great great Greek avant gardist, uh, composer from hes gotta be about 80 hes being interview and then theres a retrospective of his works from 64 to 94 at the 92nd St. Y no no this is the this is the event. So if youre interested in this type of music I would highly recommend it. Its happening on Sunday. Its a major event. Its a major you know... Uh, I dont get up to colum, oh I dont have reason to get up to Columbia very very rarely I know. I I I I took her to see Cheryls show today. We had lunch on Monday at MOMA and again today and I took her to see Cheryls show, you know, which was a real different head for Marjorie, uh, you know, I think she I think she, you know, shes not up on contemporary art criticism I mean. No no I mean, right, I mean this is really the other wave of, you know, the art the art if youve been following the art dialogue, you know, its just so, you know, further along but... hey listen! Do you

have email? Why dont I take your email address and I will start like putting you putting you in touch with I mean Dick is an email maven and, you know, yeah. Im not gonna Im not gonna... Are you doing are you using this often? I have it I have it. Yeah, Ill let you know, actually Dick just sent me a a thing about when his when his show is so Ill forward you that. Yeah yeah. On Thompson were always there. Ill Ill contact you and Ill Ill actually when I get back Ill forward you Dicks Dicks, uh, Dicks show. Of May. Yeah yeah yeah lets go and I can introduce you to Dick and introduce you to Allison and I mean Ive been up to Dicks place and if you want an archive, man, Dick has a church. He lives with his boyfriend young guy who does Left Hand Books named Bryan McHugh in an old church upstate and the place is just packed with archival material and Dick is more than happy like to let you sift through everything. Hes a total pack rat and hes hes, you know, hes crazy but sweet. I love Dick, you know, youll love him. You can just go up there and hang out. Theyre lovely people. Oh Hannah is lovely. They fucked themselves up instead. By Liz, see ya. Getcher leash. Getcher leash. Good girl! Good girl! OK, you want to go for a walk? OK, oh Bets! Dont run over everything Babette. What are we gonna do for dinner, huh? Getcher leash. Cmon. Lets go. OK. Youre cold right? Oh, we missed someones food. Alright. Alright, man, you too. 7 years old. Uh huh. Uh huh. No luck here. Nothing doing. Yeah, they really are. The buck stops here with this one. Its the end of the line. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Its been years and years already. Take care now, yep. Oh whats the problem. Oh whats the problem? Alright. Oh, come on. OK. Thanks. Good night. Ay. Bruce how you doin? Got a sec? Well, I went to hear the lecture. It was pretty intense, man. If found it. I walked in a little bit late. Ulla was there and shes been real-

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ly sick. Im a little concerned. Uh, she had some kind of a flu, uh, she was like on her back for like 10 days. And thats not good for a woman her age. No, uh, shes both of those things she has been on antibiotics. Its not good, though, she the doctors dont quite know what it is and I was she didnt look so good and she was yeah but she kind of dragged herself out to go to this thing and uh it was a little yeah Im a little worried about her. Ay, you know? Ay, you know? Youre 85 years old you get some kind of... ah, she looks it. You get some kind of bout of pneumonia you, there ya go, your fr, you know, your friends start to worry aboutchya. Oh man, so... It was good, man. It was about, oh here comes Cheryl, uh hold on. Hi, how ya doin? OK, well Ill talk to you in a second Im just on the phone with br with Bruce. No I dont think so Cheryl was it bad? Or just ridic? Oh, OK, it was just an art thing. Yeah yeah. So, at any rate it was it was a pretty good it was a pretty good paper, you know, about Beckett and the Resistance and encrypting information and the, um, yes there was, yeah, Wittgenstein saying that context was everything and where where wheres the location of meaning? Um, so oh it was primarily about Beckett but there was a a a major, you know, Wittgenstein link made uh constantly talking about, uh, Watt mostly in terms in Wittgensteinian terms, uh, you know, the refusal of the location of meaning or co or context making everything, uh, mean something so youve got a book of people that, you know, nothing means anything they dont even know the name the meaning of simple words such as doorknob or key and, um, you know, even though we understand it they dont understand each other so that was the Wittgenstein link. Get it? You got it. You got yes yes yes yes yes. Marjorie talked about the sadness of the quote if lions could speak we wouldnt understand them. So shes still talking about

Marjorie thought that was like an extremely, um, sad sad quote. But she was really, you know, on fire and it was a class of about 15 people. Uh, it seemed to be a little bit of both. It felt like a class to me. It was a real lecture. Cheryl are you listening? Uh, there was several faculty members there and Ulla was there and she was horrified that she was back in the institution. She was completely mortified. What its its its what, well, listen shes rich. I mean, no, but no, I mean, Im not... I dont go listen to academics give papers, but I mean, honestly, I mean completely objectively and not, you know, because we hung out with her today or anything or, you know, I mean, her stuff I real lovable. You know I dont yeah. Yeah. I dont have anything against it. Why did you think that I did? No, not at all. I Im Im Im interested, uh, its just general Im not interested in, you know, probably that many people but what she talks about Ive always loved her writing. Yeah, well, I dont have any problem with it I dont I dont have a lot of reason often to go but I also dont have much of a problem with it so, yeah yeah. If its good its good, right? If its a good paper, its good. Well, I hope Ive never given that impression. Theres just nothing Im real exposed to, um, you know, but no I think, you know, god, I mean, if its about good stuff like your book, your book of critical essays Im Im, you know, Im really excited to see that. When it applies I find it interesting when it when its used as something, you know, for people to build their work on and. Yeah yeah I never had any use for... a number of issues thatve that have recently crossed my mind. Whatever, whoever it was Wittgenstein or whatever it was so, so anyway it was pretty good. Anyway I I enjoyed it and, um, and so, uh Cheryl I met Liz Kotz was there and that that thats something thats a Cheryl story. Shes a critic was used to promote Cheryls work, right, when it was more explicitly, uh, sexual,

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yes. Abby. Yes, shes friends with Melissa. Yeah yeah yeah and she is friends with Abby. Shes doing her Ph.D.., shes doing her dissertation at Columbia and she was really into Marjorie and it was interesting, yeah. Other than that I didnt know anybody. Just just Ulla and her. Oh shes writing her dissertation on on on Gertrude Stein as the motivating force between uh in in art and experimental writing in the 60s. Yeah yeah, she really had a change of heart. She used to be this really hardcore lesbian and she was real dry and she used to not talk to me, right Cheryl? Very recently. But it seems like, yeah no we rode the subway all the way downtown together yeah, it was it was OK. So, at any rate, yeah, so it was fun I had a good time and yeah, yeah. I walked in I walked in late she she was glad to see me. She mentioned my name during the question and answer session. So, I asked her a question, no, it was fine, um, you know, shes real intense. How did you guys do today? Yeah. Did you have fun? Yeah, right. I got her started on that. Shes a... she should do something with her life. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah she seemed to like Cheryls stuff pretty well. Great. Great. Well listen Im. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Well alright so listen whats... Right. Yeah. Well. Oh well of course I mean she does she does place a lot of emphasis. Its a yeah its a big de... I also think Marjories, you know, shes also into, you know, status symbols having a good show in the gallery having a New York Times review having an art art your name on the cover of the Art In America, you know, this is this is this means a lot to her on some level. Thats professional. Yeah. Yeah. Its good. How did you like some of the... well, I think shes a little uninformed about about visual art as well. Right. You let her know? Huh. With him, yeah. I can I tell you what she said to me about Susan? She just thought it was like real gotten had gotten real soft and real romantic and

she was extremely disappointed with whats happened to her work. Uh, her work whatever I believe its probably poetry. Its good I think in a weird way she seems to be getting Cheryl theres pasta honey. It it seems, you know, it seems like shes shes getting a lot harder core in some way maybe, yeah? Well, she always loved your work. Its good no its good, I mean, she she well she constantly sort of over the last few days came came down real hard on people that were quote soft. Real real hard. Loved him. She mentioned him tonight. This is good. Yeah it was its its Ive got to digest this all this little jaunt with her I mean I dont know where she gets the energy I mean its just unbelievable shes just crazy. But shes fun too and shes warm and, uh, yeah. Yeah. This good. No, this had been really interesting for me. Uh, so, Im just kind of a little burnt, uh, but Im digesting everything in my own way. So, whats the next event, babe, Xenakis? Did you get tickets? Great. OK, great. So, why dont why dont we plan on seeing you there then. I guess... ah, yeah we could do that or we could do it before. No probably after. OK, that sounds great. Yeah and Im gonna be working on Sallys thing this weekend as well if I can find some time but everythings good. Alright. I heard. I heard. Alright. Oh, I tried to give away the, uh uh, tickets for for uh for Fulkerson at Roulette last night on the show and nobody wanted them. I played his music. I played his tape piece for trombone which is great and uh, I didnt get any calls but I did give away a pair of tickets to Zorn. Did I tell you this? Well, I was, right, I was doing I was doing this, uh. Him and another guy its its its a one year anniversary of Tzadik records but uh, yes he is yeah I just. Yeah, well Im too burnt tonight I, but anyway um, so I forget the name of the person. Somebody I never heard of. Um, I gave away the tickets I said guess this famous anti-Semitic great Modernist compos-

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er I played Three Orchestral Pieces and... well he was. I thought Alban Berg was. Who was it Webern was the antiSemite? Oh, what are you gonna do? Oh, no I will OK. Oh, I got them mixed up. Right right. Did you talk to Marjorie about your Lulu treatment by the way? I did. Really, huh. Huh, no. You cant know about everything. Yeah, so what are listening to in the background there? Alright, so listen Im gonna get off. Ill talk... yeah, I will and Ill, great, great. Sure sure. Great. Sounds good. Hey, you know. Hey listen, Ill, uh, Ill see well talk this weekend. Later, babe. Hi, how was howdja do? What oh god. I I know its on Gramercy Park South Ive seen it. Oh it was a panel? Yeah. Theyre nice arent they. Theyre like split toe, but cooler. Yeah. Hey new shoes. You got em. Good. 69 dollars. Theyre really nice. Fantastic, yeah. OK so she what is this is this a, uh...? Do you have a shoehorn? We need a shoe horn. Anyway go on so she had a video thing set up? Right. Right. Yeah. Really? Really? Really? Good. Huh. This is good. Wow! Good. Good. This is good. Tell IBM its just a trend, you know, I mean... Oh god. Oh yeah there was really good video art sure sure there was. There was some really neat stuff done in the day, sure. Vito Acconci. Yeah yeah yeah. No, I got it. Yeah yeah yeah. So, did she show your piece? Yeah. Wait did they show your piece. Oh, god. OK, so what happened? Right. So how was the response? Sounds like sounds sounds wild. Were you the only artist there? Oh god. Yeah. Yeah I know. Oh boy. What are you making there? Oh god. Its exhausting just listening to it. Well, Bruce said that Marjorie really loved your work and she came up to me and told me that she really loved it tonight shes shes really behind it so. Im burnt. I had Im burnt listening to that. I cant I almost cant listen to what you just told me. Its too painful. No no no. Not any fault of yours, its just too painful. Makes me sad and... yeah, you

know, its exciting in one way, were fighting new battles but on the other hand... its great yeah. In a very nutshell cause I can hardly talk. Watch that cup sweetie. In a nutshell she just talked about Beckett and the Resistance and encryption and Wittgenstein and how it all kind of fit together and and and the novel Watt. It was pretty it was it was remarkable I mean she went on for an hour non stop it was fascinating. I just. It was so intelligent I mean I was just I was I was I was I was in heaven you were in hell. I saw the most I saw the most intelligent talk Ive ever seen in my life tonight I mean, you know, regardless of the fact that we, you know, hang out with her and all whatever but I mean Im just talking like Ive never seen anything like this. She was just... Ill tell you about it when I can find words. Oh it was so good Cheryl. And then Liz Kotz and I rode the subway down together. She she was so nice. Everybody has a really nice side to them and its just a matter of getting her off of her position and she started talking to me about her dissertation and like all these people who are like all my friends you know, she wanted to know how to meet Hannah Higgins and Dick and Alison, you know, I knew Vitos writings, you know, I knew, you know, all the all the Language people knew Abby Childs, you know, it was like she was talking my game she had a Cage CD in her bag and a Feldman CD she was so happy she had just bought so shes just kind of getting into this. She was battling for like Language Poetry. It it was really neat. She was really quite quite interesting. Well she knew she was like so youve been reading at the Ear. It was remarkable I was almost it was just amazing she was like a different person, you know? Uh, you know, it was it was really neat. Shes writing she was telling me about Warhols novels which is almost exactly what Im doing this week. He just had endless conversations and had somebody transcribe them. I mean, who

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was to even know that he did you know that he even wrote a novel? It was great. Anyway, Im Im pretty well exhausted I had like 4 hours sleep and of course Im not going to see John Zorn and... uh, we just emailed but, you know, I mean just hearing that story just took whatever life that was in me, no I dont mean I dont mean it as a as sort of any kind of dis to you I just mean it like its painful. Is Mary Boone just really stupid too? Ew, we should have anything to do with that. Good for John. I mean, you know, oof! When did Sandras gonna have your piece on her gallery then? Yeah OK, well I wish we could get it. John said you cant have a stand alone can ya? Is he going to Cybersuds tomorrow night? OK, so well all go, yeah. Hey there was pictu did you see there was a picture of Andrea? I wonder if I cached it if its in if its it was on it was on the web. I I logged off I dont know if Im gonna be able to... to pick it up. Mmmm. Here, here it is. Its cached, look. Look at this. Thats Andrea? Yeah, isnt it? That looks pretty good. What is that orzo? Where did you get orzo? Oh man, theres a lot to talk about. Theres so much to talk about, you know, weve had like a helluva week. No. Im so tired. Ah, well, theres I think its good to have the other side represented. I think its good to represent both sides. You know I do because, um, I I think its OK for the intelligent people it it it it brings out the points better. What? You know when he does this kind of stuff its great. Its good minimalism. Im trashed. Im just trashed, you know, I have a lot to say about what you just told me believe me I have a lot to say, god, do I have a lot to say. Ive kind of got the day off tomorrow. I have an appointment at 3 but until then I never heard from Jon Gams spaced out stupid wife again thank god. People are so spaced out. So, I I maybe Ill sleep in. Its early. Maybe if I go to bed now I sleep till, you know, 10 or something its not gonna be bad.

I kinda like when Im getting back to normal. I could use some exercise. Bad, really bad. Yeah, Ill call him, yeah, its just as bad as it was last year. Terrible. I just see a huge purple circle in my left eye. If I go like this I cant, like I cant tell your eyes are blue right now its just your blotted out by a big purple circle. Now I can see your eyes are perfectly blue I see, you know, you as you are. Now all I just see is like right in front of your eyes a big purple circle, yeah, that covers covers the better part of your face. This is exactly what I had last year. Yeah, I think Ill give him a call. What did you do between the time that I left you and the time that you went up to this thing? Oh, who did you see? What do you mean writing a paper on you. Oh, just on you or...? Oh hes with a lot of artists and youre included. Yeah, right right. Oh, thats good Cher. I have something for you to read. Its very interesting. Im gonna take Bets around the corner and then Im gonna Im gonna crash. Cmon girl. OK. Who wants to go for a walk? Cmon. Cmon Bets. Who wants to go for a walk? Good girl Bets you make. You make. You make. Good girl. Uh, from this guys site. Bruce, hes a friend of John Schlencks. Pretty interesting, isnt it?

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dog. Did she, huh? Whats the dog doing, licking her wounds? Its a dangerous world if youre a little dog. Its supposed to be 65 degrees out today! Neat, huh? I once the twice. So Andrea emailed me and said that we should show up at 7:15 tomorrow night. Tonight, I mean. Alright? What is she at 6? Its gonna be tight. Did you talk to Dan next door? Whats happening. Its nice. Its nice, its just like our not renovated its just, you know, normal apart. Yeah, its like a normal apartment. So whats whats up? Whats going on? Theyre owned by different tenants. So, it, uh, seemed a little quieter. Alright. God, I never heard from Jon or anything Ive got to quickly call in for mail. Ugh, a pain in the neck. Gams. I mean hes in town supposed to be working with the guy. It looks like we are gonna leave the 11th, thats great. Yes. Good. Good. And when are we going to, uh, fly back when are we gonna... Alright. OK great and then its too bad we cant we cant go directly, huh? to Vegas. Why cant we get a flight directly to Vegas? What do you mean to ask her? Cmon panix, answer. Whats going on here? Oy yoy yoy. Cheryl, did you like that article about Swami Bruce? Kind of interesting, wasnt it? He sounds like an interesting guy. Yeah. Pretty. Ugh. Ann Reiss. 4 or 5 for a few hours. No you couldnt. Oh, shes so stupid, ugh! Oh Ann Reiss is so dumb. Jons wife is so stupid! I knew and I save the whole day for her Im mean shes just so stupid. And I have to be so nice cause shes the bosss wife. Oh Ann. Ive to to... Yeah. Kenny Schachter. Have you copyrighted my site? Hes such an asshole. Yeah. Oh look! Its that time of year the sun comes in. Isnt that nice? That means its spring. All spring and summer we get that weird that weird shaft of light. Um, you know the web thing it is like a marriage, man, I mean. I get these nasty notes, you know, Im I mean Im involved with this with Kenny whether I like it or not for quite a while.

Hi. I finally got some sleep. What time did you come to bed. Wheres the dog? Whose usually coming here. Wheres the dog? Wheres the dog? Did you lock her up last night? Wheres the tail? Wheres the tail? Ohhhhh. Major cleanup to do here. What tape? Ohhhh. We bad mouth everyone in the world but we cant put moaning and groaning on! Ha ha ha! You never did! You just bad mouthed me. Its too late. It was rolling! It was rolling! Best way to start the day. Bets! You dead? Bets? Wheres the dog? This is unusual. Cheryl, shes old. And sweet. Yeah, thats good. Hi Boo. Hi Bets. Hey we both got new shoes! I like your a lot. I told you I liked them, didnt I? Well, I I guess I like them. Do you like mine? Theyre good, huh? Theyre about the best thing I could find. Theyre like split toe but different, right? I mean Im a little tired of those now I mean everybody got those regular split toes, you know? Theyre becoming theyre becoming too much. Yeah. Listen, I think this dog needs a shower. You think so? I think Ill just wash her. Alright? Hey, no big deal. Look, she knows where she is going look at this. Look at that, isnt that amazing? She totally knows where she is going. Im not but I gotta... I, oh well. I dont think a double A battery is going to electrocute me. Again ding pho. Bets. Look at this. Shes so good. Watch this Cheryl. Aw, what? Wanna see something amazing? Stay. Bets, stay. Bets. Bets. Bed. Cmon girl. Bed. Cmon. Bets bed. Bed. Oh, look. Cmon. Oh, good girl. Pretty good, huh? Shes a good girl! She stinks. Shes saying you woke me up just to do this? You take the number 1 train or the A. Actually take the A. Thats it. A. What time do are you going? She sucks your dick and she washes the floor. And then she also, um, wipes down the

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What? Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Wheres your cup of coffee? Maybe well bring it back to NAFT. Thats weird, it shouldnt do that. Be nice, yeah, Ill deal with it let me get get out. Make! You make! Make Bets make. Good girl! Hey do. Heeeey do! Good girl! Cmon baby. Cmon! OK cmon. Cmon. Good girl. Yes, whos a good girl? Whos a good girl Babette! Babettes a good girl. Yes. OK. Cmon. Go on. Go on. Come. Come on. Go. You want some toast? Hey Cheryl did you see this thing for David and Alexander? Sad. Sad to see, what? Sad to see them go. Im gonna miss them? Sad to see them go? What? So that was an appetizer, huh? This morning. That was a, uh, salmon appetizer. Its on. Oh, whos gonna read it, Cheryl? The juicy vizualizaria? Is it time for a futon? Oh, so Ive got to call my mother. I got a call from Magda is my mother gonna be up at Margies? She is? Is that right? Where can we go eat with Magda and her little friend? Yeah. She we go to the same place we went with my Mom that time? What? My mother will, sure she will. Believe me, shes got money Cheryl. Its not a problem. Mother, its me calling to make some plans for Monday night for dinner. Um, Ill try you later. Ill see you. Later. Bye. Yeah. On the 22nd? Yeah. OK. Well, yeah Im sure. Its the 22nd. Maybe Ill see if Bruce wants to go. Yeah, its OK. Yeah, what the heck I dont think its gonna be a a great opera. No big deal. Maybe Bruce wants to go or I I dont know. Oh god, its Jody Zellen! OK, hello? Jody? Hey how ya doin? Hey, Im sorry, you know, I was waiting for you to get to New York to call. How ya doin? Good. How long are you here for? Oh wow, OK, um, gee, wanna have a coffee? OK, yeah its been a while. OK. Yeah like about a year probably. Yeah we we met last year. Right. OK well, Ill tell you what. Whos Brian? I dont know him no. Well, maybe maybe a long he he had sort of when I was in L.A. he was

there at the reading and he had sort of longish curly hair? Yes, I do know Brian. Go see Cheryl has a show up at Stefano Basilico. Good. OK. Ill tell you what why dont you give me a call at my office I have a phone there now. So Im at 2604081 and Ill be sort of there today and tomorrow so if you want to call me that would that would probably be best when you guys know what youre doing and... OK? OK. Yeah, why dont you guys get a groove get some stuff done. Im not sure whats happening with my day I know I have an appointment at 3:00 um Im, you know, and then Im kind of also around pretty much tomorrow afternoon. So, um, and Ill just be around. So lets so just get in touch. Yeah Ill be I should be up there pretty soon and I should pretty much be there all day. OK, Jody great! OK. Bye. Oh boy! Ha ha ha. Why do I keep doing that? I like Jody but... Yeah it just just her way. Listen, do you want do you want a your toast is ready. How many pieces do you want? One and a half? Bets why why are you just mooning around? Why dont you go do something? Shes gonna go see your show. Come sit down baby. Its ready. Toast is ready. Do you think were eating too much of this cheese? Really? I mean its... were not eating that much of it Im just putting a little on the toast. Yeah? I mean... So, um, so listen I want you to I want you want you to firm up plans with the French with the Bordeaux lady. I just want to do lets just do it. Like, lets not procrastinate any any longer lets just get it get it. I mean the prospect for getting out of here for the summer is just an incredible one. OK? Lets just wing it. If it works great, you know? That way that its lets just... Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah just stay there for June. He can have it for July and August. Youll take it back again in September. And if he... Yeah, yes. If we cant its fine, you know, I dont want that to be be the determining factor I wanna go if we can yes yes lets definitely look to sub-

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let it but if we cant lets if we cant sublet it lets say no were not gonna go. Lets just go one way or the other. Well, lets just say lets try. Lets give it a shot. Lets go either way. I wanna go. Definitely want to go. No no. I dont want to sublet my office. Yeah, well I dont know lets lets... youre so negative. Go on. Uh huh. Great. Youre so negative. No, OK. Great lets move everything to my office. Big deal. I yeah no I just think like lets do it. You know, lets just do it. I think it sounds great. I really want to I really wanna get out of here this summer. The prospect of splitting for July and August makes June doable. You know? Thatll be really good, man. I want to travel too when were over there. I fucking I want to go to Italy I want to go to Spain. Oh, this is great. I love this. I love this life. This is great, no, Im seriously in to it. I mean you may want to did you want to call Dominique to make sure shes not completely insane? I think you should just call her and let her know that were coming for July or just, you know, fax her email her whatever you wanna do and then if Dominique says shes completely insane well well ditch out but I just, you know, Id really like to just while while strike while the irons hot. OK. Its something to discuss with Stefano. No, I dont think so. No, I dont think you should too many things in too many formats I mean there are all these people that have invested in single pieces over the years. Why would why would you just want to give them everybody a compilation? That way theyll have to buy one and theyll never have to buy another. Yeah, you know, right. Thats like having 4 great paintings and saying would you would you could we would you do them all over again but just on one small canvas so theyll fit on my sofa like put all 4 on one canvas? You wouldnt do that. Theyre individual works of art. Too many... Yeah, its just a like the art lady club mentality. No, definitely not. That also undercuts EAI

and their integrity. I dont think its a good idea. No but I think they all should be made into a, you know, you know, the more popular one made into one piece on a laser disc thats it. Individual ob, you know, thats it. No, thats it. These ladies are bullshit, Cheryl. They dont care about art. So call Lawre Stone. Please, I mean shes theyre really nice I mean we may not be so close with them but we have to call them they had a kid and we have to go see them. I will do I will go any time out to see them. I like Dan and Lawre we always have fun when we go out to these crazy restaurants I like them. Sure I like them. I like seeing them in the summer over there. Im not against. No seriously Im not against them in any way I really like them. I mean theyre nice people theyre really kind of your friends I would never like call them on my own but but theyre but theyre sweet and and good people sure no I mean you know I really... make make re re establish a contact and Id like to see their baby and some time this summer Id like to Id like to, you know, at some point when were up there stop in and see them. From who? Listen why dont you mail it off we could certainly use it. Listen, um, do call them sweetie, theyre good people. They really are. When is Ann Kormans thing speaking of things weve got to do that were not... thrilled about. Ha ha! Wait till this wait till this tape comes out! This is May 6th. OK, zing partys out but 73 Poems are being performed at The Kitchen in one of Morts multimedia extravaganzas on Wednesday the 24th. That night? Oh well its this is not being performed till 10:00 and thats its in the same neighborhood so lets do both. Oh, lets just do both thats a great idea Id like to go to that. Yeah. Oh thats great and then and then we can ride ro roll up and see 73 Poems. Thatll be cool that sounds like a lot of fun and zings not gonna happen until for some other time. That sounds like fun. Ill get Ill

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bring home the May calendar why dont you put at the bottom why dont you write May 6th Ann Korman just so we have some dates and somethings happening May 4th, um, theres something May 4th thats important... oh yeah, just do this for me theres a Dick Higgins opening that Ive got to go to. Were gonna have to schlep out to Queens College. And Bruce and Sally want to go and get Peruvian chicken afterwards with us. That that are thatll be fun. Do you knew the Peruvian chicken place? Its on First Avenue and like 90th St. Its like the best chicken in the city. I know. Well get up early well get out of here by 9. Where do you wanna eat with Stefano? No, were gonna be at Grandmas birthday from 11 a.m. to 11 p.m. Were gonna rot as we die. Were gonna sit there and rot and be corpses for 12 hours. Cheryl, what do you talking we should be back in the city by 2, 3:00. Ive got to go to Charles opening at... our life, its insane! Yeah, I mean, alright. Great great. Im mean this is this is not required listening Jackson and Ann believe me. Yeah well I dont really want to go to that. Ill just well all meet up later. Where do you want to eat with those guys? Honestly, where what do you think would be a nice place thats not too expensive but nice enough for us to kind of feel classy and hang out and talk. No seriously. I mean I think its important and maybe we should, you know, spend a little bit more money I mean its its a celebratory dinner for the end of the show and, you know, dont want to go to Chinatown and then like oh OK where do we go now. Like lets go and have a real dinner with those guys somewhere. No something on the par of the Odeon thats mid-priced I dont mind spending 12, 13 bucks on a plate, you know, some place, you know, I think its a good idea, actually. You know, hes not the type of guy you run down to the Chao Chao with, you know. Yeah, but its its I its I dont know I mean it was OK it just... I dont

know. No, I dont think itd be right. I cant I dont think its I think those guys I think of those guys like theyre a little chicer, a little hipper. Its a little dowdy. I was a little dowdy. I think we can find something better. Yeah, I know but they look they look good. Well hes a European. Thats why they all stink. They wear the same clothes all the time. No, Im joking. Yeah yeah this has worked out well I wanna like celebrate with a nice bottle of wine and a toast I mean this has worked out really well. Im so glad, you know, its like the ideal match wonderful show, successful. No, this has been good. So lets lets, you know, lets put out a little bit have a good time. Well come up with something. Yeah. Its not not that good. Thats an idea. That was, um, pretty good. Yeah, right, no that was good. La Paella. I just I I the only problem I just remembered but it was our problem that we were rushed. Right right. Maybe a late dinner at Paella you know at like 9 or something after the openings. Alright just all I have to do is show up at Charless at 6. Thats a good idea. Why dont you and Stefano take care of the time and making reservations at La Paella thats a good idea. I mean that food was real really good. Thats a nice place too. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. No its no thats fine I. Good idea. Im with you. That that food was excellent. The food was excellent. Is there anything else we need to discuss? Yeah. Lets look at the calendar. On the 11th. Yeah, leave on a Saturday. Wait wait wait. Why? For Vegas. Id just assume come depending on when the flights are going what time is our flight to Vegas? Im not going to Boston. Right. Yeah, well just coordinate coordinate the whole the whole thing and then were gonna come back from Vegas when yeah just... so I will actually go and do my radio show on that Tuesday the 26th Ill only need to miss two two night yeah yeah. OK. OK great this is gonna be really fun were gonna be on a fuckin whirl-

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wind bender. Have her set up a talk for you at the school so you can get paid. Well this you need to do whatever you need to do. It doesnt it doesnt seem like that, yeah, why dont you just hang a curtain. Hang a curtain. I mean just take a piece of fucking linen and you know whatever. No I dont wanna no no I dont wanna build walls I dont build walls. I dont build walls anymore, honey, Im Im you work on computers. Yeah, you gotta do a bunch of phone calls. Well, wait a minute. Was that an appetizer this morning? For for dinner? For a real meal? Animals. Look at how shes shes made her seat. Look at how she sits there. Hello. Oh, she smells so good now. Hey Don. Ha ha ha. Who told you? Who told you about that? She said I dont fuck around with that parmesan stuff. Ay. Ay. Hey dont fuck around with that parmesean. Hey fuck that parmesean shit. Cheryl says Cheryl like like Ill go Ill go to like get a little maple syrup and therell be like a half a teaspoon full. Its so unsatisfying. Buddy we got a lot to talk about Buddy. Im Ive been at it for about 13 years and... Yeah. I know why dont you just throw the damn thing out? I know. I say to Cheryl why dont you just give it to the dog, you know, I mean, do something with it! It it goes back there so you think it it or your under the illusion that theres actually jelly in the jar cause you look in the freez in the fridge and you see a jar of jelly you go to take it out you see theres one blueberry at the bottom of the jar. Cream of broccoli your mother says. Sitting in a... hes got a container thats got 4 kernels of corn in it... orange juice, right. Theres like one drop of orange juice. I you know buddy, we got a lot to talk about as I get older I realize I can learn some things I can learn learn what Im what Im whats in store for me. Well, at least Ill know what what lays ahead of me. Yeah me me you and David were were gonna have a talk. Alright so, so heres Cheryls back

and, uh, were just getting ready to make plans for Vegas. Is Amie bringing a friend or... oh great! so its just gonna be the five of us. Fan-tastic. What? Great. Oh great. Oh thatll be fun. Oh thatll be fun. Maybe maybe, uh, maybe Rutstyll wanna come out. Cher Russ and Patti may may be out there as well. Thatll be fun. OK. Alright. So you got us tickets from La Guardia. What time is it leaving around. OK OK. But its its on the night on a Thursday night were leaving? And were coming back on a Monday? Great! Great! Sounds good. Alright. If you need need a credit card number for us? Alright. Why dont you... yeah yeah yeah. Were leaving on the 11th. Yeah yeah why dont you why dont you tell me what the tickets ran you and well, uh, send you a check up. Alright well just let, you know, let me know if you... OK. No big big and then what is the room run us and all that? Really? Thats great. Wow. Thats excellent. Thats excellent. Well, alright! Well this is good. What do you you know people. Alright Cheryl wants to talk to you about the Masters she actually looked for you on T.V. What? Alright shes dying to hear about this Ill Ill hear about it from her. Alright, Bud, Ill talk to you later. Cheryl hold on a second. Can I ask you something? Do I need to have things put on the bottom of these? Or or are they sort of... I guess its already got its already got yeah OK. Tell Donnie we got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about buddy. Well well catch up on the links buddy! Yeah, call me OK? Bye Don. Yeah. Im gonna make my wife clean out the no actually I should do it cause nothing will ever get thrown out. Its not gross but one pea in a bowl is ridiculous. Alright, Ill talk to you soon Don. Ips. Stay. OK. Bets stay. Aw. Look at that! Is that a boxer? Yeah, hes cute. Nice looking dog, huh. In the car? Arent you afraid hes gonna jump out the window? Naw. Naw. Look at this one. Its how you train em. Theyre not all that way. You

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know, its like what you do with them. You can make them that way. They got the potential to be that. Thats another discussion. Oh boy. Oh boy. How you doin? Alright. Whats up with this white paint? So theyre kicking all those guys out that hang that put all that shit out there in the front? Ay, she just got a bath this morning. Fresh and clean. Clean for spring. A springtime bath for this one. I she dont care. She can stink all she wants but I I felt a lot better about it. I can actually touch my dog again. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. This is our work route. See you later, man. Take care now. Testing. Hi is Andrea there? Its Kenny G. Thanks. Hey I saw you picture in the, uh, Cybertimes. I saw last night I was like cool I showed Cheryl. No I thought it was just nice, you know, its like sort of... well you look fine, you know, I mean its and you know I blew it up, you know, you know you can touch on it and it gets bigger. Do you know that? Yeah its got one of those its just linkable to a bigger thing that says ada, uh, Total New York is needs more space or something like that. So I showed Cheryl when she came home last night. 7:15. What do you mean cleaning up your office? Why, what do you mean clean up? For who? OK. OK. What? Live and fly. Of snail. Uh, Cheryl said it was a real nightmare, uh, Sandra got nothing but shit from the from the people there about Cyberspace and yeah it was it was evidently it was evidently awful. Um, uh, it was embarrassing and poor Sandra. You know Cheryls piece looked good but shell tell you all about it. I didnt go I had to go to another at Columbia but. Wheres Viv? Let me speak to her for a sec. Oh, shes on the other line she was gonna show me how how to get this goddamned warning message off the desk oh, Ill talk to her tonight. Well see you tonight at 7:15. OK superstar. Hey Bruce its Kenny at about noon. Hey listen we got an extra ticket for the opera Monday night, uh, you wanna go? Its

Romeo and Juliet, uh, call me Im at my office pretty much all day if the phones busy its just because Im on the web I wont be on long 260-4081. Let me know. See ya. Test test. Hello. Bruchay. Wanna go? Do you know it? Who is what is it who wrote it? Gounod. Do you wanna go? OK. Oh, well we this is these, uh, is the subscription but Cheryl cant go shes got to teach so its me, you, my mom and um two were gonna have dinner with these two, uh, Polish girls. These were she was my assistant in Poland. I mean you can come to that or not. No no my assistant when I was in Poland, uh, doing a show and a friend of hers and theyre going to the opera but theyve got different seats. We got really good seats. We got like like, uh uh, orchestra sort of, uh, row, uh, T or something. Theyre really good. Yeah OK so you want me to hold the ticket for ya. OK great, great. Hey why not, you know, its a... yeah well its only a few hours, yeah. OK so then. Well, probably the 4 look, you know, are you gonna get there for the interview? Yeah yeah no I think that should be really interesting. Yeah OK Ill see you Ill see you before then Ill hold the ticket for ya. Later. Hello. Hey, how ya doin? Um, OK, wait what lunch? Oh, yeah well we had a good time we had a good time. Whats gonna happen? Yeah but there was nothing to happen it was just a it was just a lunch. Oh know, well, theres nothing for me to buy and... so. Hey, so listen Cheryl ends up having to teach on Monday night. Shes subbing for a friend and didnt realize so I asked my friend Bruce to come with us whose the person who got me interested in opera in the first place. Hes a great guy so you me and him will go and I was gonna ask you where do you think we should have dinner? OK. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was pretty good yeah I thought that was yeah I cant really think of a better place around there, can you? What was the name of it do you remember? It was world

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something yeah it was like map of the world or... OK let me let me do some investigation and Ill make a reservation. What time should we meet the, uh, show is at 8 wanna meet about 6? Should give us plenty of time, right? Is that enough time? OK. Yeah I its what is it its like Columbus and like 70 something. I let me find out. OK. Alright. Hows the baby? Yeah. Yeah. Because of the baby? Right. So theyre both gonna be there on Sunday? Great. Saturday I mean. Right right. Great. Alright, um, so you guys are having lunch tomorrow. You and Cheryl are having lunch tomorrow? OK. OK. Yeah, OK. Bruce. Bruce Andrews. Weve hes I did some books with him I did some covers for books for him over the years and hes a great guy. Vedanta. OK. Yeah Ill letchya know. Ill letchya know on Saturday whats up. Alright then. Alright Im gonna go out and enjoy some of this weather. Take my dog for a little stroll and OK. Its what. Its open 24 hours? No I have no idea. No youre just. No. No I dont know it. Alright. Alright Ill talk to you later then. Bye. Babette. Babette come. Alright man thanks for taking care of those DATs for me. No problem. Appreciate it. Good girl Bets. You make. You make. Make. Make. Good girl. Im sorry I never heard of it. Hi good. Can I have a a wonton noodle soup to go? With, uh, can you put some vegetable in that for me? Inside OK. Just for take out thank you. What time are you open until? Excuse me sir, what time do you close at night? 9:00. Um, chili oil please. Chili oil, yeah hot sauce. OK thanks. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Hello. Is that just a baby? How old. Yeah, thats a baby. Thats a baby. Mines 7 years old. Girl. Hey do. Bets Bets no no bed sit. Thats a good girl. Youre good. Shes very friendly. Shes very sweet with kids. He is that a he? Who can tell at this age? Shes cute. Is she about 9 months? Ewww. Bets go on. You can go down Bets. Down. Thats good it really teaches her to be fearless, huh?

Bye. Come back again. Bye. Shes friendly. Sit Bets sit. Sit. You wanna pet the dog? You can pet the dog. Shes nice. Sit Bets. Sit. Go ahead. Aw, youre cute. Pretty good I havent seen you in a while. Yeah. This park is so nice since theyve renovated it. Well they spared them the death penalty. Yeah. Such nice guys. Right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Its Babette. Your old friend. Your old friend that yeah. It feels nice cause Im. Thank you. Thanks and congratulations on the Penn Station piece. Thats really cool. You know Im from Long Island so Im always pass Im always passing, you know, right around that. Actually I really like that that new entrance that they built up on 34th. It looks really great. Who was that? Really nice, yeah, it looks. Well for years, you know, its like the most wealthy executives have passed through that in the world have passed through that that that terminal down there its been so hellish. I think I think they did a good job with that renovation. Port Washington. Im always running out there constantly. Yeah, so. Here she comes. Oh, I have an office in the Cable Building. Yeah thats where I do my work Bets. Since Im like primarily come here girl. Since Im like primarily writing these days. Yeah yeah. Im having books made and stuff, you know, like that mostly writing and Cheryls doing the gallery thing shes got a show up at Stefano Basilicos. Everythings good were hoping to go to France for the summer. Look at all the kids love her. What where where are you located and what are you doing? Or youre at the same place I saw Peter the other day for the first time in in weeks. Are you in touch with him at all? Yeah yeah yeah. How many years were you guys together? Yeah. Shit happens. Cheryl and I have been together 13 now. Oh, how is it working? Good good. She did, yeah she. Um, are you doing any gallery work? No? No sculpture or anything? It was a bad thing. Cause you were doing something on 57th

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St. for a while, werent you? Right. Is that your dog? No. Yeah. I guess if it works why why not Janis? Are they kind of creepy? Theyre theyre doing some young young stuff that rue what is it called that rue rue larrey or something at Janis that thing that Richard, uh, Millazos doing looks interesting. Oh really. Yeah yeah. It is getting married. Yeah but I mean youre youre like me as that youre diversified I mean I I keep my relation with John and Karin. Theyre theyre not the greatest gallery in the world but Im not one hundred percent involved in the gallery world so when I... yeah so when I wanna do something when I yeah. Well the ar world always wants to pin you but, you know, Ive Ive tried to use it in a way that I can move in and out of it cause Im writing hey listen I saw told you I saw when youre brother was reading, right? At the Ear and then I ended up doing a big website Im doing that for money for Doug Messerli for Sun & Moon so I so I put Tans book up. I kind of designed a little mock cover for it since its not out yet and I heard he doesnt like the cover. Like this gir wasnt it a giraffe or something no no is book is called giraffe. Lotion Bullwhip Giraffe. Look at this Bets go say hi go on. I know that was OK so hes got a David Salle cover on it now? Oh god. Douglas is a good publisher, you know. And also Im doing another book of his Im also working for another press called Hard Press whose also doing a book of his. He seems to be doing really well. Yeah. Yeah. With Hard Press. You didnt know this? Where is he in Harrisonburg? No hes in which is where in Fairfax or something. Charlotte Charlottesville yeah. What does he what does that mean a critical book or something like that yeah? Yeah, no no I think hes doing really well because like Im in Im in this world now and suddenly hes like everywhere and everyone loves him and its really great. Its what? I think hes doing something a little

different its a little more. I mean Language poetry kinda dead. Yeah, no he is hes neat. So. Is he on, uh, email? Are you? What do you mean you never log in? Its fun. I like it. I like it. Its like like. Oh well well oh let you him play a little bit theyre having fun. Um, wait, where did you have lunch with Andrea? When, just just today? Oh, Im seeing her tonight. Yeah, were gonna have yeah Im seeing her at 7:30. Shes cool, yeah, shes doing really great. Alright, what time is it Maya, you know? No its not. Naw naw. 2:30. Hey nice to see you alright? Bets go get her. How you doin? You guys have any dried figs today? Heres your dog. Heres your favorite girl. How are these? Are they sweet? They got seeds or not? They go seeds naw I cant handle the seeds. Alright Ill take the asparagus for now. Thank you very much. Alright take care now. Run out this way. Cmon. How you doin? Yes. Cool. Thanks a lot. See ya. Hi. Hey Amy Kenneth. Hi Rene this is Babette I hope you guys dont mind a dog. Do you mind a dog? Sit down. I dont do I mind a bagel? How you doin? Have a have a seat Im just finishing up, uh, putting 3 holes in these pieces of paper itll take me two seconds. Do you guys want a coffee? Its right there help yourself and theres cups and... do I feed Babette Danish food? You know we never saw that. Isnt that isnt that weird? Like I never saw that movie and everybody for years shes 7 years old has always asked me that. Have a a seat. Have a seat. Do you want some coffee or some water some cold water? Its so nice out, huh? So, Im Im glad were talking sound here Im working on this new piece and Im recording everything Im saying for a week. So, its you guys are actually its only its miked only so to pick me up so I I wont really have any context of what Im saying in terms of other people. So just ignore this. I started on Monday. Uh, just for some new material for some new work that Im doing, yeah. And so.

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Uh, upper left hand corner and so cmon now and this is a book Ive just finished this 600 pages of sounds that Ive collected for the last 3 years. And Ill show you that. Well Ive been doing this kind of work, hold on a second Ive got to bash this thing its stuck, cmon, aw I hate when this happens. You know. Those things. Do you guys do you work at the, uh, at the temple? Listen I gotta to ask you a question. Theres a guy, I used to live on Forsyth and Grand, and there was this little old man that was like the caretaker. Has he passed away? What was his name? Mr. Markowitz. I just remembered, yeah. Wah! Right, hes so nice. Right right. Here we go. Really? So he when did he pass away? When did he finally pass away? Im I was actually surprised he lived any longer than. Oh, it was that long ago yeah. I used to see him I moved out of Forsyth St. around then. Yeah he lived up the street from me. Yeah yeah he was really cool. Oh really, really. Ah. Well, he put in he certainly put in his service. What was he a caretaker or... sexton. Thats right, yeah. Wow. Thats totally wild. I knew yeah. No, no he didnt and I, you know, I saw him just a few times and he was always so nice he was always so cool. And, uh, Ill never forget him and I was actually just walking walking the dog today and I was thinking were gonna meet and I was like and he just came into my mind and, you know, pretty neat. Really neat guy. Well I was down there in the yeah. Hes gotta be hes gotta be ancient, huh? I mean he must have been he must was he was he that young? When I saw I thought he had to be at least 95. But, uh, I I I live in that neighborhood for many years, you know, I came to New York came back I lived in New York of my wait Im 34 Im almost 35 so my 35 years Ive lived in New York 31 of them. I grew up on Long Island and I went away to college and came back to New York in 85 and then we moved down to a loft on Canal between Orchard and

Ludlow. Um, and we were there for a long time and then I moved to Forsyth and was. It was a great neighborhood I loved it. Do you live down there? Oh, thats right you live on Houston. Now I live on Thompson and actually I gotta tell you I like the West Side. Excuse me for a sec. Hey Jody how you doin? Good, um, Im just in the middle of a meeting. Um, tomorrow afternoon might be a good time to get together what do you say? That would. Why dont you come over here say, uh, say hows about hows about 2:00? Sure. Well lets then do it toward the end of the day. Kind of more like 4:30. You know where I am. Yeah 611 number 702. Same thing. OK, bye. Well, anyway I like the West side I mean I put my time in on the Lower Lower East Side Im never gonna... I like I mean I like where the synagogue is I like where that area is great then I lived in the East Village and that was terrible. That was insane. So tell what are you guys whats happening what are you guys are oh. Well, I I did a lot of tests and I tried to get off of, uh, being self-conscious about it. I mean at first it was a little awkward and I did it like several days of tests and yeah, you know, I was like watching what I was saying and at this point its like Im just letting it yeah. I just started Monday Ill just do it for a full week, um, but I did lots lots of test for a while just so I could get used it to. Just figured Id catch a week of language and see, you know, start to work with it a little bit. So, no this is me normally, this is really this is me. 3 years. Im just gonna get a cup of coffee. Dont you want some milk? You want some sugar or anything? OK. So what so what hap happened finally it was like just too too stiff and too weird? Too conventional? Right. Im gonna... You were the best. Borrow one. Yeah sure, hes famous. I like his work, yeah I think hes really cool. Oh really, where was it in the synagogue? Really, what did he do? God, why didnt I know about this? Yeah yeah yeah like

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Grand Central and right. Why did I not know it was happening there its so cool. Was it was it good? No you of course its like there still is its still an active congregation, isnt it? Oh, its right Mr. Markowitz used to tell me right it was downstairs, oh, thats so cool. Um, OK so I was gonna ask did you turn it off during... yeah yeah. I would say so I guess no really really I would say that theres times. Yoko. Yeah, its the new, uh, she put out a new album called Rising and then a bunch of people did remixes of it and this is the Thurston Moore remix yeah. Its nice, isnt it? Is it annoying you? Um, um, when are you guys looking to do this and are you looking to have several pieces going at once or do you plan to give the space to one artist for a certain time? Yeah, well, I guess my life is really sound its interesting because I was trained as a visual artist and, uh, theres a big article about what Ive done in the in the in this new Art In America the written word and its about 3 artists that have worked with, uh, with text and its trying to, uh, establish, uh, books and writing as serious art work and not just some side product of an artists production. So, this is from here on in you can actu you should maybe pick this up at some point or I can xerox it for you and then, yeah, and this about some of the things that Ive done. And they were Ive moved from more sort of concrete objects to less and less, you know, um, sort of more ephemeral and sort of sheer sound pieces based on sound. I was trained as a sculptor and, uh, I went to RISD and I used to make sculptures of books and, um, all sorts of objects and then, I was carving language onto book, these wooden books and they were really beautiful but I became much more interested in language than in the actual form of the book itself. Um, so I stopped making sculptures and began working more directly with the language itself and came up with several of the these gallery pieces

over the years that were just text, um. Yeah of course I have that on my refrigerator. I love that. Everybody loves it. And it this all these are based on sound I can get into that in a minute. Um, and more and more after this was 94 I rejected even making things, uh, physical hence this is like where I work and its all computer and, um, and I worked and I worked on this book and actually this this whole article is about my book which I just finished and is going to be published this summer, which Im really excited about by by The Figures its a small press, uh, experimental writing press. Um, along the way, um, my work since 1990 has all been based on language and the way language sounds. Um, and I began to work with rhymes very simple rhymes and um, I did a, um, book here with a collaboration with a vocalist named Joan La Barbara who was is the primary vocal interpreter of John Cages work. It was an honor to work with her and, uh, it comes with a CD of Joans stuff, and uh, it was released on Lovely Music actually. Do you know Lovely Music? Theyre a theyre a good downtown, uh, new music label so this CD was released individually on Lovely Music. And I wrote the poems and theyre very simple rhyming poems and Joan did vocal interpretations I can actually play some of them for you. Yeah well these were all drawings originally and yeah I spread this whole thing out on the computer it goes through all these different changes and they were a suite of 80 drawings and Joan I just handed the test the raw text I said do with them what you may. So this is tracked there are 79 poems even though its called 73 poems and its got 79 tracks on it so you can actually plug in track 26 and turn to page 26 theyre very faintly printed down here the page numbers and you can actually listen to her vocal interpretation of this. Um, sure sure theyre fun. And actually I have the whole project on the web now which is really neat. I put

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the entire thing up with sound bites and everything so its its its view able from everywhere. Uh, OK. Yeah if you have the yeah if you have the sound if yeah yeah I mean if you have speakers anybody can get it sure. And thats its all converging because I mean thats also what Im doing. I design websites for a living and I work for, um, many presses and I do I do literary sites on the web and so this whole kind of interest in poetry and Im a DJ at WFMU so this whole kind of interest in poetry sound literature computers its all... Bill Arning. I dont know I dont know him. It sounds it sounds interesting. OK, so heres like this poem. And there are two its for two voices the kind of darker text and the light text and if you can just hold that and, you know, what would it sound like, you know? It was like one, you know, theyre all like like really teeny whats the next lets see. Its all her, yeah. So you hear that that background track is what we just sort of just heard and now shes putting something new placed over. What happens is that the the darker letters move to the next one and they become gray and a new set of letters is laid over a new set of sounds so the new two. Oh no, its completely sound based. As a matter of fact this whole book I I this whole we can just move to the quickly jumping to that project its like my whole idea is like what if language was was was selected by sound before meaning and what is, you know, what does that do to language? And then Ive worked in many languages. Ive done poems in Ive done big poems in books in Polish, Greek, Latin, French, Spanish I was just in a museum in Caracas and... Museo de Bellas Artes in Caracas. Were you in Caracas? Yeah yeah exactly yeah. Yeah exactly. What were you it was a horrible place isnt it Caracas? Mean. Yeah its just its wild. Um, I was brought down there, um, and what I did was what I often do I was in Poland I did a similar project in a museum Ill Ill

place myself Ill sit, um, in a museum and Ill collect sounds. Ill just collect Ill have a big stack of paper out and Ill have people come by and Ill have somebody translate something for me to say that Im collecting sounds that end in say the word in the words that end in the sound of ah. And I dont care what comes before it just as long as the last thing is ah. You know, cause its kind of like rhymes, you know, ha ja la na. Is it? Yeah yeah I just sit there and oh, its terrific, I have people coming up to me and laying things on me and Im always banging things into the computer and somebodys always sitting with me helping me put it in. I I actually have some pictures and I probably have a this actually quickly if you want to just quickly look at this. This describes the process more I I wrote it. Its more articulate than I am right now. Yeah, Ive got this whole numbering system going too. Actually here is, uh, here is a bunch of things from from Poland actually just read that and Ill show you the pictures. Oh oh dont just read the introduction. No no. I dont understand a word of it but thats... I did a similar piece in Venezuela right right very similar I mean I have a printout of it I never made it into a book. Um, but it was really great because I mean it was all about it was just all about, um, the possibilities of of of, uh, universal communication, you know, it all sums it all there. But it was fun, this is this is yeah my hair was really long but this is this is like me hanging out at the computer and people just just coming by. Um, no, so many let me get some more process pictures theres more drunken pictures. Poland was nothing but drinking it was really a lot of fun. And Allen Ginsberg came over and theres me and Allen Ginsberg. Um, this this was in 90... 93, yeah, late 93. Heres a reading we all did together me and Allen Ginsberg and a bunch of the different poets, um. Well anyway I just anyway these are mostly pictures of friends. Bill was

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there actually, Bill Arning was in there with me. And so I just sat I would just sit here and people would come by and I would enter these in. So I did that in Caracas and I did this big piece in Spanish, that was interesting. And then, the other interesting weird connection we have here is that is that I was selected as the poster boy for this show at the Jewish Museum. Did you see that the museum or...? The matzohs on it yeah yeah yeah. So then this is then this is all over this piece has been reproduced all over town and this was some visual work that I just done done and showed and it was all about me, Bob Dylan, Abbie Hoffman, and Allen Ginsberg. So it was really funny that this ends up right up these are these are little postcards and theyve got big posters it was in the Times and it was really insane because it was a little side project I did. So, I mean there was this, and then Raphael and this article makes the connection, uh huh, Raphael makes a connection between my explicit use of Jewish Jewish images and the fact that Ive drifted to text and and and and text-based and kind of a taboo against images and and he brings that up in the article something you guys can have those I mean theyre... so so theres like all these funny crossovers yeah. Theres like all these really weird crossovers going happening now, um. Ive done that too, um. Ive also over the course of the years done several pieces based on single works, eh? On single books only using the text in the books extracting texts from magazine articles. Sometimes Ill Ill write a work in another language and Ill only use the source from, say, a magazine article. Like I did this piece as kind of a warm up for Venezuela I did a piece in Spanish and I had a Venezuelan newspaper it was like the breakup of Richard Gere and Cindy Crawford. So I sort of, you know, of course I couldnt I dont speak Spanish I dont understand it but I was working with the language

formally and only worked from that source so it thats another way of working. Um, and and thats thats not a problem. Um, its interesting you should you know its all too weird, you know, this all getting this is all getting really too strange Ive been the next series of poems Im doing are are one of the projects Im working on are based on the visual structures of the Talmud. Which is... yeah yeah yeah, which is great and also the and a lot of the Jewish graphics from that are in this book are really beautiful yeah this is an amazing book. Its all like Jewish visual poetry which is just just right up my alley kind of thing that Im. Its really its like from the 70s. Jerome Rothenberg put it put together and, um, actually I think it still is in print. And theres all sort of heres another. I love that as a matter of fact yeah. The Wallace Berman stuff is also interesting but look at these two arent they just incredible? You know its funny that the micrography I was like thinking what would I do with all this language that Im collecting like right now Im working right now of course as we speak and I was thinking I do would do some kind of micrographic piece with it, like how much language do we generate each week which is probably just like Ill find out like a stack I mean Ive got tapes and tapes and tapes already from this week and then what if I like reduced it down to like like the teeniest point size or something like that and con con and I fit it. I was in India and I saw, um, like the Bhagavad Gita like written on grains of rice and that kind of thing, you know, all that kind of. So theres like all this kind of, its interesting so Ive Ive been on the Internet Ive found I found a whole explanation of what what actually what this all means and I well, no, what the vi what the the the visual structure of the Talmud is I mean what what these things mean. This is the main commentary and this is commentary on this commentary and these are like assorted

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commentaries on everything else. You know, so its I I read the Life of Johnson and its a great book because its been annotated by so many people that theres. Boswells Life of Johnson that theres theres this but but then his wife annotated it and then another person later on annotated it and later on all the annotations appear so it became something really similar to the Talmudic structure. Yeah, lets see. Yeah this is the original guys commentary the original rabbis commentary glosses and these are other commentaries. This is the secondary it was called Tosafot or something and this is the second this is the primary this is the secondary and then all these are glosses and other like odd comments about other odd comments about, you know, I just saw it and thought it was so beautiful, you know, and each one is really different. Each one takes a different structure, you know, visually again its like theyre amazing. And I dont know anybody thats done any work with this structure in terms of visual poetry. Look at this one, isnt that beautiful? You know, again, you know, its not real interesting, you know, to me. I dont know. I have no idea. I know nothing about it. Yeah, I saw it at a at a book at a street fair and and. So yeah so, you know, its inter its very. I thought maybe I could, you know, Id start to flow some text around just just just for fun to see what would happen, you know, Im not sure but its its really interesting its very funny that you called its its, you know, I was telling my wife shes a video artist and, you know, I was telling her that you guys had called and, uh, you know, its just so funny because... Theres a Yiddish word for everything but theres kind of like all this its all this stuff is kind of in my head and in the air so when so when Eldridge St. Synagogue called it was like so this is just like something else, you know, something along these lines and so, you know, actually Im not a practicing Jew I mean Im much

more drawn to Eastern practices. I mean I practice uh, Vedanta, which is a brand of Hinduism, I mean, thats my religious practice, but I mean in in terms of, you know, everything else Im totally Jewish, right? I mean its just like you know my whole culture is Jewish. I grew up in Long Island, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was given a secular Jewish education which is something called Kinder Shul, which is a Workmans Circle leftist, uh, thing so I was also sent to, um, kind of a leftist I mean, summer camp, Camp Walt Whitman which was like leftist and non-competitive again Workmans Circle, again my parent are really into Workmans Circle stuff. So my whole background was was yeah, was more like that culturally. You know my father works in the shmatteh business on Seventh Avenue. Hes no major radical but its all this kind of stuff and I also grew up meditating and my parents were New Age and sort of EST people in the early 70s. So our whole family grew up meditating and I had this whole leftist Jewish thing going at the same time and, which is which is what I am today. Im a practicing practicing Eastern religion but my whole shtick is leftist and, uh, and and Jewish so. So, at any rate to get more specific about these projects, um, yeah Id like to work with I I would actually welcome the idea of working with with, uh, something within very tight much tighter parameters, um, because look, its all language to me. And whether, you know, the way Ive been working allows me to work with things not only that I like but also things that I might not like as well. Because my rationale is language is sound then it can include, you know, sort of things that either are not interesting or even if I permit it and, well, Id like to permit it to to let in things that I actually find offensive that are not mine. Well, um, its yeah thats not my thats not what Im doing. Thats not my I mean there are a lot of people that

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do that really well, uh, but I dont work with. I dont do that. Um, my, you know, my focus for the last probably 9 years has been exclusively language and the sound of language. Ive become really attuned to that. Um, so that sometimes so yeah, no Im not Im not a real sort of sound, you know, sound. I mean I appreciate other peoples work and certainly on my radio show I play. Well I mean I mean John Cage is the god, right? And and Im a Cage devotee and I got to know Cage, um, through working with Joan La Barbara as well. So, um, I like, yeah, I like all electronic composers, experimental composers people that like Pauline Oliveros, uh, all new music I mean Ive just got like a load a load a load of this stuff. Bob Ashley, but then hes language based which what I really love about his language. Meredith Monk I adore. I think shes terrific, yeah. So, I mean I think there are. No no whatever she does is good. I I have yet to hear a bad Meredith Monk piece. I play a lot of that on the show. Um, so, um I like all that stuff but I my main emphasis is really language and and language as sound. What? They are what what language are they in? Id like to I would really like to work in Yiddish and I would really like to not know what it means. Um, Id like to work it would be a good challenge for me because Ive only worked only in uh, no I havent, I did some work in Greek. I did a big commission that was all in Greek. That was really fun. Hey, it wasnt Greek to me, no it was really fun and and uh, that was really closer but I went to India and I wanted to do a big piece in Sanskrit but India was no place to kind of focus and work. That was very difficult. Um, but I learned I learned a little bit of Yiddish growing up, um, and thats what we were taught we werent taught Hebrew we were taught Yiddish but I cant remember I can remember two words of it or something right yeah. And of course I mean. Visually, um,

visually also Im interested in working with it. See, what I would like to do is get my hands on those books or, um, and and begin to construct um um um sound pieces by the way the words look. Now if the way the words look theyre probably gonna have if I can arrange things by the way they look theyre probably gonna have a sonic rhythm and sense to it as well. All the rhymes I work with if I didnt know the language I could look at the ends of the words on anything that that that they would all sort of sound the same and they would have some kind of a, uh, some kind a thing using that content. And I usually dont well I never ask what these things mean. At the Polish thing I never asked what it meant. To this day I dont know and everybody always wants to tell me and sometimes people do tell me and, you know, but I I mean with this it was so close with these kids and everybody was telling me what they were giving me. If you guys are doing sound, uh, that wont be a problem specific to me thatll be a problem specific to every artist you work with. Right, I mean this is not this very non traditional. Yeah. Good good. Yeah no. That would not interest me. Well, you know, whatever whatever would be say if I was to do something and you guys this, you know, would hand me a bunch of xeroxes of these books and somebody could have gone through them and taken out, you know, I dont care and. The recombination of words and this is what my whole work is based on is that there is a lack of intention and that meaning is constructed by the way by the way the number of syllables in a word and the way that the sounds ends. Thats why two phrases in my books live next to each other, not because I thought they had good meaning but because they were fallen in according to this system that I make. So now we may take something, you know, from that book it may be just a fragment, it may end up next to another fragment and

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then an unexpected meaning they may find offensive. But maybe that can be explained to them, um, in the beginning of, you know, of how of how the work was created. This book was like that its all, at the beginning, very short sounds based on, I think, air, ah, er, ear, or, these very related sounds. It goes into two syllables A to Z. Yeah. Oh, I dont know. Its some really kind of crazy reference book of sounds that I collected for 3 years that ended in. Well, I think you want, I think youd want to its it really really really sounds fun, you know, um, its A to Z and they and they grow the syllables everything begins to grow, um, here is 3 syllables and actually its indexed. Right. Right exactly, you know, uh, this is, uh, 4 syllables and it grows to 7 syllables and theyre just separated by separated by commas. This is how Ive been working for the last, you know, so so so something like Chestmen of America, chicks painted pink for Easter, Chestmen of America, thats 7, chicks painted pink for Easter, theres 7 and its c-h-e and then comes c-h-i. They were all, well, I mean there were things that I thought of, um, there are things people said to me. Theres things theres things Ive theres things that Ive read theres bits from T.V. and then later of course it gets much much longer. This is 15 syllables. And so truly Allah made you in the image of Heather Locklear and the of course I was only really interested in the ear and the truly thats 15 syllables if you count that out and 20 years ago I crawled into a bottle of vodka, you know, so and it goes it goes, yeah, I dont know where I forget I forget and so now it gets on to 43 later they get on to they get on to 100. Um, finally things getting much longer and ending up I believe 2,737 syllables, at which point the whole thing kind of breaks apart and gets really crazy. So, um, language is meaning is determined by other things other than meaning, you know, and theres always

gonna be meaning there with language and so this is the kind of thing that Im continuing to work with. Um, actually its all I mean you can take that if you want. Excuse me. Hello. Hey Ken, how ya doin? Good, Im just in a meeting. Can I call you back? Uh, yeah I cant believe that. Im gonna be away the Tuesday May 14th and Tuesday May 21st? OK? Let me call you back I wanted to talk to you about the links page as well. Bye. Um, yeah this this this sort of tells the whole story I mean you can contact my gallery for a bio. Uh, no no, Bravin Post Lee yeah, theyre down on theyre down on Mercer St. Let me just see if my tapes running out. Yep. OK Ive yeah Ive Ive tried tried not to keep I dont I try not to keep these bio things around because my production is so scattered, um, its, you know, that this is, you know, this is something like this which, you know, ends up meaning as much to me as a, um, you know, a a show in the Jewish Museum, its all the sort of same to me so I let the gallery kind of kind of kinda keep up with that stuff but I think, you know, you should if you need information I theres theres just stacks and stacks of press over the years as well that they can that they can get you. No no no its its too Im, um, I havent tried for grants because I know how hard they are to get these days. Um, and also I do, I mean I work, you know, I do I build web web sites and yeah I work for and I work for, um, oh this is great its so cool sure sure. Um, yeah so, you know, I mean Im happy to, you know as a writer and a collector and sounds I dont need the time I used to need when I was a visual artist, you know, kind of sanding or cutting or or coloring, um, I can you know Im working right now just by talking and and listening. Yeah no it is and it gives it actually frees me up so I do I do I work for publishers and I build web sites as well. You guys wanna see? Theres a chair behind the dog you can just grab grab it. Did you guys say you want

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say youre interested in a website? Because you might think about one? Uh, have guys hung on the net at all whos no yeah? no. Um, Granary Books they do artists books. Uh, that was something I I stole a, uh, something from the Merce Cunningham site yeah sure. Oh actually it should be... um, this is a site I did for these guys, um, and were just local now were not were not live on line. Oh, wait a minute, why did that work that way? Excuse me, let me just change my preference here. Whats going on here? I did this for a job. Let me let me crack this other browser. Rearranging my preferences blah blah blah blah. This new one. OK, try this again. OK? So, um, actually you come into the site and you get this and then it comes up with his logo. And then youve got, um, a choice of all these different books that hes done, sort of on the side here. Uh, theyre just I just created icons, yeah. This is clickable. Just a little bit from this book and he he wanted to remain mysterious like you dont really know what it is. And then and then and then at the end you you find what you what youve looked at. Oh yeah, oh you are its really. And and these are these are just pages from books that hes done. Sure sure sure. Sure of course. This is a very visual site I mean this is he he wanted it this way. Its not a high information site, here is you click on that little t that was for text and heres heres all the hard information about everything and you can actually get to the books from here as well. Yeah yeah. This site came out really really well, um we also put up one one. Oh, I have a scanner yeah I scan everything, yeah. So here he put up an entire chapter of this Johanna Drucker book with with with footnotes which I love, you know. So yeah so this is you always always have the text. This is the mailto so you can just knock a composition right in, you know, and and send it right off to him. Um, and on and on. So, a more kind of conventional site would be...

lets merce.html. I I took these quotes they were these really beautiful quotes on on the web everything is available and you can lift everything so I I just simply by holding down and saving this image as you can take anything so I got these quotes. Uh, yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, but no I mean its Netscape is is both platforms, uh, lets see OK another one is Sun and Moon, um, they are a very interesting press in Los Angeles. Yeah, Ive got see all those books the same size yeah yeah. I think I called it home html. Right and this was actually meant to be viewed a little bit smaller and this is much more sort of sort of hard information you know this may throw us onto the web. Is it live? No. No great, were not live. Um, I I have these links in here that are sometimes live links so this is his new titles and and you just would sort of click on. Mark. You know him? Really? Where does he live? Yeah. So thats really interesting, yeah. So heres one of Marks books, yeah, and I I actually created this cover Douglas. Isnt that isnt that funny. Douglas just sent me a picture of the woodcut. I just sort of laid this in and were waiting this is a new release thats coming up on the web he claims for several novels. Isnt that funny, yeah? So you should you should tell him I built this site I built this site for Douglas and, you know, its a great press I mean I just I mean I adore kind of, you know, what Douglas has done, I just think its great. So I mean this is a really hard information. Now these I are live, uh, these are all live, so let me see I wonder if these if these are live no these are local, uh, you can look at his his different reviews from the books, um. No, what did you catch. Where do you study English? Huh, oh are you a writer? Uh, this is Douglas wanted these titles these selected titles and theyre so great. Lets see I wonder if theres I think theres another Mark on here? Nope. The Red Adam. I knew that was familiar and there it is. So, I design all the covers. Oh, I

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was just, where? Oh I was just Douglas sent me this text to put up. Yeah yeah yeah. No, thats good. No thats thats thats good. No I was I I get emailed the text and Douglas says Ive got to go through it and do that I just lay it in I do whatever he, you know, whatever he gives me. So at any rate, this is the kind of thing that Ive been that Ive kind of been building. And theres another one thats, uh, I think this is kind of kind of, uh. Dialing. Yeah, sure, Im sorry so. Oh its a cheap modem. Oh, its a 129 dollar I I, you know, it work it does what it does, sure, it works really really well. So, OK, go on. Well, Im Im Id love to and I, you know, I think the technical thing is is essential too, you know, I kind of think think that, um, how to how to. Well, its true theres theres theres, you know, we can move move back here, um. Yeah, um, yeah I yeah no it all sounds interesting to me, um, you know I really love this place. No no really, I mean I told you that story on the phone I just walked by it with my wife we were in Chinatown oh man look at how good it looks and, you know, uh, yeah, its really yeah and any way that I could, uh, sure. Its all this all fam you know its family my my grandparents are from the Lower East Side, you know, this theres a lot of ghosts around here. I mean we all moved out to the suburbs but my grandmother was born on 4th and D, you know, and now shes buried in Cypress Hills Cemetery right near Schneerson, which is just wild, yeah. Yeah, oh its oh its wi have you ever seen his his tomb out there? Its incredible. Um, its this big its this kind of big concrete thing and and its its yeah kind of like a mausoleum but its kind of open air and theres the big trough, this big concrete trough in front of where hes buried and there are all these people like praying and theyre scribbling like prayers on like little bits like scraps of paper like like like laundry like right like little laundry tickets theyre theyre theyre

kind of put filling this trough up with prayers its really a big trough its really remarkable because its. Yeah, well I had my Bar Mitzvah at the, uh, wailing wall, yeah yeah. Its a great idea a great idea. Its meaningful because well its theres just to finish quickly what they have is they have is this guy that comes and we saw this happen and theres this sort of older guy and he collects everything and then theyve got this old, um, cast iron stove in the back with a huge with a huge pipe with a huge tall pipe, right? And it and it, you know, as if as if its a direct connection to heaven you like yeah well get it up there quick for you. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, Im sure maybe he got if from, I mean, this was after after she was buried and I was hanging out with my wife and my cousin and oh yeah lets go see Schneerson. And it was really I I, um, no I didnt didnt feel feel that I mean its a really its holy place and people were, you know, its very serious. Yeah it was just like in India, you know, you go to these different temples where these different, you know, saints have lived and and, you know, theres like really holy stuff and the guy evidently was I dont know that much about him but he was a he was some sort of a saint to somebody to someone right and you feel it around there and the great thing is that they these guys the Hassid have bought the house nearest to it and they run electricity to it from outside right out theyre right out he hes like buried here and then theres like like maybe about thirty feet and theres the wall or maybe more 100 feet or something like that and then they bought the house adjacent to his tomb and you know he has like this huge busy street and theyve run things into his thing so you can go there at night and stuff and theres always somebody keeping an eye of the tomb I mean its very very spiritual experience. It was really really quite interesting. Makes sense. I didnt know that. I mean we could just surmise I

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mean nobody told us anything. Yeah, well maybe maybe sort of a mix could happen maybe a mix of sort of past and present language could happen. And then kind of like what Im also interested in doing is that doing some kind of a printout of the text, you know, that people can actually take with them. Im Im like, you know, addicted to making books and and, you know, the written thing is as important to me as, you know, the kind of sound thing that could happen as well. I have this font I think its called its its the one like that that makes Jewish it makes it look like Hebrew it looks like the Second Avenue Deli? Yeah yeah. I like the Jewish I love that one. I used it in a bunch of work that I a lot of these Jewish works that I show. Thats for you, yes, thats for you and, um, yeah yeah if you guys Im interested in in helping out in whatever way I can and also if you guys are interested in getting a site done Im available for that. Tell Mark. Uh, uh, it depends really how deep you want to go and and also, you know, how big how big you want to go I mean something can be very done very simple very quickly something could be done very very complicated and could take a long time. It really its not an easy question to. Which one? Yours? Well Im a Im a natural collect Im naturally a collector and a cate categorizer 3, 3, you know, 3 years worth of collecting, so. But youll read about it. The article is all about this book and, you know, if you want Ill just do a print out for you, its fun. Its only 600 youre not going to read the whole thing its impossible to read I mean you cant read it start to finish. Alright, well, do be in touch. Do you have email, you personally? Well, I have I I maintain an AOL account. I I think I think theyre great. Why why dont you give me yours and Ill Ill oh you have it on there, OK. Well, Ill tell you also if you I can recommend a before you are set up in the office you should consider, um, you should sort of consider where

youre going to housing your site. In other words, dont arbitrarily choose a provider because it could be it should be connected directly to that in terms of these things, you know, so you can give me a call or something, I dont know who are you gonna. Awful? So yeah keep keep that. And have and tell Mark, who I dont know and I have to his books are well one is one is there. These are all the books that were sent me. What was it The Red Adam and... I should keep this here because of the job but, um, you should tell tell him its interesting because Douglas says that the books that he sent me to put up first are like what he considers to be the most important books and these are? I dont know I dont know anything about them. Are they good? So tell him that, I mean, cause hell be flattered because its a great press and and Douglas, you know, sent this as being. Alright you guys. Good to meet you. Be in touch. See you around and if you OK, bye-bye. What? Sure. OK, bye. Hey Doug its Kenny G. How ya doin? OK is Ken around? OK. Hey. Right. So hi. How ya doin? Yeah, hows everything going. Hope to see you sometime soon. I hope we can hang out or do something. When you said Harry took his first bike ride what did that mean? You put him on the back of your bike? Cool. Oh. Cool cool, Ken, I havent seen him in so long. So lets get together at some point soon OK? You know, at any rate, why doesnt this guy have a phone? Is he the guy the guy who like plays Zappa and jazz and hes black he was like with BGO we he, yeah, OK. Good good. Well that would be perfect. Were going to Greece, Cheryl and I. Great. Yeah great. Very good. Oh boy, do you think he its. Do you think hell hell hell be able to cover for the shifts? Great great. OK. Well those are the two dates. OK good. Well its extremely political as you said today earlier. Yeah. No no you did. I suggested and I think you reiterated that that we owe a lot of people favors

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and what goes on the links page I think is, you know, is is its very political. Mutual links. But then but but I mean then then our links just just, you know, anybody can put a link to us and thats, you know, thats not thats not as interesting yeah we should do. OK. Alright, um, in terms of in terms of politics, you know, we shouldnt we shouldnt be extraneous I think were a great site and I think we should only have things on our links page that really mean a lot to us. Got it. Thatd be fun. Thatd be fun. Thatd be fun. No no thats cool. Thats cool. Yeah, just like the catalog. Well OK that then. Yeah yeah we dont. Yeah OK, no, well OK thats thats if people are interested. OK yeah mutual links page. Yeah, well that sounds fun that sounds good but you know, man. Right. Right. OK, well, listen its its something that will grow but I the other the other thing is the other thing is, you know, like Im kind of learning with the uh, with the uh, with uh, the old bin, you know, things things I I wish things, you know, I wish things kind of took a life of their own and asking DJs to write things. You know, the new bin the old bin has just kind of languishing. Its not on fire and I have a feeling that its just gonna kind of keel over and die soon and. You know but it in terms of asking DJs to write reviews of site, I mean, Im getting the sense that DJs at the station are, you know, generally either preoccupied or lazy or uninterested in in in in doing too much else outside of their own show. Thanks, bud, why am I why am I with you guys? Im like you. Im like, what are we doing Ken? We wanna do shit, you know? Ill do a few, yeah sure. Dave Mandl, you know all the people that normally do shit around here. Yeah, well, alright listen. I can just start Ill start with the list and I, you know, Ill leave it open if people want to contribute. I mean whatever happened to anybody else ever doing another goddamned home page at the station? We still have the same 4

home pages there. What what happened to you? Oh yeah, were all busy. I know were all busy. Right, right, yeah. Alright. Yeah, alright. Yeah. I saw that. I liked that. I love those those those orange monitors by the way those old old monitors theyre really nice. Yeah yeah I think theyre really easy to read. They dont make em anymore. So, be in touch, man, I feel like I havent seen or heard from ya in a while. Were going Greece for 2 weeks. And then were going to Greece and then were going to Las Vegas. Thats why I cant do those shows, but uh, you know, before I go to Greece Id like to get together. This weekend is pretty well shot. Uh, you know, um, yeah Im going to see that Xenakis thing? How was Donnas Xenakis show? Yeah, I heard she did it yeah. Im going to that Im going going to that Xenakis show and then Saturday I have family obligations but, you know, what are you doing one night after work or something. Yeah. Its odd we dont see each other in between our shows, you know? Were so close. Have you been sleeping well? Yeah. Yeah. OK. So listen Ill just just just lets next next weekend the weekend after the 27th. Yeah. Let me know, huh? Yeah, I miss you guys. OK? See ya. Bye. Hi, can I speak to Pamela? Ken Goldsmith. Thanks. Hi its Ken Goldsmith. Whos this? Hey Barry, how you doin? Listen, what do you how did you guys finally end up feeling about 7 point 3? Yeah. Do you guys recommend an upgrade to it if it? OK and whats? Ive finally stabilized on 7 5 2. Like my system runs really pretty well. Uh, Power PC, uh, 8500. I need, well I need Open Transport 1 1. You guys have it there or I... yeah. Oh, I see. I see. I see. I dont care I mean I have so much memory on this thing its not its not its not a big, yeah, not really I got like 50k. Yah. I have one problem with, uh, and Im hoping Open Transport 1 1 will fix it is that is that Ill be on the web and Ill be fine I can hang forever and every-

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thing works beautifully. The minute I close my PPP and try to reconnect right, I mean, I can reconnect but Netscape and my TCP like just wont function. Yeah, really? Oh, wow. Right. Good, so what do you so just what should I do then? Just just bring my box in? How long does it take to to to throw that? What thats it. Right I mean I Im not gonna, uh, Im not gonna, uh, start trying to do this myself. Uh huh. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, alright, then OK so Ill just just do I need to make an appointment or stop in or... right is that about were not talking an all day thing. Right. Right. Alright well listen I appreciate the information I I totally appreciate your time much, you know, thanks for the hard info. Its something I have to do I mean Im just reluctant cause I just got 7 2 to stabilize actually I think I was Im on 7 2 1 or something like that. 7 5 2, right. Blah blah blah. I just got it to stabilize. Ill see you soon. Appreciate it. Later. Hello. Hey. Wow! Uh huh. Really? Can he get you any work? God. Oh man, thats funny that he even remembered me cause I never did any work for them. Funny, god. Wow. Well, so what so whats the story. You think you can get any work? Where are you? OK, well listen I wanna I dont know if Im gonna make it home. I making up little business cards for tonight. Uh, I dont know if Im gonna make it home. I really wanted to like rollerblade with Babette I thought it would be its nice out, isnt it? Uh. Oh boy, uh. Really youre just gonna take the train? Yeah yeah. Yeah. Come come right by cause actually actually actually Ill see you at home. I was gonna I was gonna rollerblade I dont know if theres time. OK, what time are you gonna be here? Alright. Ill wait for you here. Bye. Its been been so long thought. Still look the same? OK, so. Ill meetchya downstairs. Ill be down in two minutes. OK. Ill have a bite of your sandwich, you know? OK, Ill be right down. OK. Lets get going. Lets lets walk

family. She rejected a potato chip. Thats a first! Aw. No no no. Its alright. Its alright. Ill get an apple. I need something living. You know, having this thing with my ear it feels like an ear infection in that, you know, when your ears fucked up you feel all off balance and stuff? Yeah no I got to all the guys though theres nothing you can really do about it unfortunately. Yeah I do because Ive had this before. Its really fucked up. It really makes me it really makes me feel. You know like just not here, just not clear, you know? I mean, literally my vision in my left eye is so blurry right now. Do you think eyes are serious I gotta get an apple. You think eyes are serious things? How would you feel if you went if you were going blind? Its your biggest fear, isnt it? Alright. Wanna hold her? No. I just want to get an apple. Take one of these. Apples are so expensive these days. Guess how much this one was? 80 cents. And Im gonna bite you right back. This looks friendly. Apple. Wanna stop and say hello. Is this the grand old lady with all these young puppies. Shit. We were gonna go with. Uh, yeah. Hes an asshole. This guy looks like a soap opera actor? That guy in the black looks like a soap opera actor? Yeah. Or a porn actor. Im always taping. What? Thats what shes supposed to do. Sit in the sun. Chilly. Oh. Fuckin Jon never called me his ditsy girlfriend never called me. Uh. I dont really care I mean I was like I didnt really wanna see her. I thought it would be interesting to see Jon I thought that would be OK cuz people are just fucked up totally non non committal. Something like that. Never heard from her. Figured shed even call. No, we didnt have a real definite meeting set I just never heard from. This is so fucked up. You know what Ken called WFMU on the phone to me today? He called WFMU flypaper for fuck-ups. Let me have a bite. Is it good? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he we go again I guess this is all this is always gonna be

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this way. I mean what are you gonna do now? Are you gonna go back to the other ones? The other ones who ruined the rug I mean I guess this is like I guess this is occupational hazard. Ill be it even happens to Ramon. I mean it happens twice, you know? I mean the rug is like unforgivable but and they and they... No. I know. I just think this is what happens. It happens it seems to happen to every dry cleaner so. What this guy said the worst thing to me Ive ever heard today. Well there was this I was you know theyre doing construction on Broome St. Im walking Bets and theres this pit bull sticking his head out the window of some truck. So this guy turns to me and says watch out for this dog and I said why. Like hes gonna attack your dog Im like well the dog is in the car and the car is moving. And hes like you never seen that happen? This dude. He says them fucking pit bulls, man, theyre crazy theyre all fuckin crazy. Im like, well, not really, its all how you make them. I suppose they have the potential to be crazy but its all how you train them. Hes like no no no. Thats not true. Theyre all crazy. All of them. All of them pit bulls theyre crazy. He said you think you can train a pit bull to, uh, not be vicious? I said sure. He said you tell me this: you think you can train a nigger to be smart? And I just looked at him and I said that is a whole other subject. And I walked away. And he says, I seen you smilin I seen you smilin... You agree with me. You agree with me. I just walked away and was like not gonna... I was smiling like, oh my god, that was the worst thing anybodys ever said in their life, you know, I mean that was serious. Oh, he was so ignorant I was like this guy has the whole way of the world things are like they are, nobody nobody can change nobody can get better. I had the nicest lunch today. They opened this new Chinese restaurant next to you know the one I go to all the time? You know, the little greasy place. They

opened this new one. You know where that nasty one used to be? Like a little bit further down? You know which one Im talking about? There were two. Well, a new one opened in its place. Its a real Chinese restaurant right? Its like the most Chinatown its like a bakery restaurant. So I went in there I had a soup, right? I was really in the mood for a soup. So like chicken wonton noodle soup. And that was the best soup Ive ever had. I mean it was so clean and I mean they gave me like this like, you know, one of the big containers and about this much vegetables, this much noodles, and this much wonton. And I I you know they re re redid the park on the corner of Spring and Mulberry, you know, across from the Shark Bar? And it just opened and its really clean. I brought that there and I sat in the sun and I ate it and oh, it was just so nice, I mean the food was just so good there. So I saw Maya Lin who extremely friendly who wanted to just talk and talk and talk. Im sort of not feeling a hundred percent up to this thing tonight. Yeah, well just go quick and, you know, oh you know. Hey so anyway your piece looked really good those snow prints are very bizarre. Its really small. I expected it to be a full screen thing. I mean its really tiny I mean on my screen it was like maybe this big. Im sorry it crashed because what happened whats happening is that Im not gonna go into it but briefly in order for that new browser to work it needs a new the newer version of Open Transport. Im not even gonna explain what that means but Im gonna get that Im gonna get a whole new system upgrade which will include that really soon so like over the next few days. No. Uh huh. Yeah you have to have a Java browser and its gotta be working and everythings gotta be working and, uh, yeah, Im about as savvy as anyone and I dont really have the right stuff for it. I mean its just, you know, 6 months from now more people will. You know,

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I mean its just a matter of time. It looks really great. I had fun. I liked the lines snaking across and the fingerprints and yeah, it looked really really good I mean it really is I wanted to see the whole cycle but I like it what little little bit I saw it looked really good. Know what well do tomorrow. Youre gonna meet my mother for lunch, right? Well well buy her an Art In America we should probably give her that fucking thing, you know? She should probably see that. Oh, I hate this woman. Oh, Im so glad she didnt see Babette shes such a doink. What are you doin there? What are you doin there? Look how happy she is. No I shes just like hello Babette shes like one of these dopey women who kind of of just carry on insanely. Yeah. Cause Im trying to be more open with them right? And so Ill let her see that. What was the name of that restaurant we went to with my mother on Columbus Ave.? It was called Map or something or. What was the name of that fucking place? It was called Globe something? Globe or Map? Alright. Hey! What are you doing there? What are you doing there? What are you doing there? I gotta find out before then, oh, well. Not really. I like that article on Swami Bruce. He sounds like a good guy. I mean it must be hard being a western monk I mean you dealing with guys like Swami, I mean, hes terrific but hes from another totally from another place. I think it must be so hard, dont you? Oh yeah, I think thats one of the reasons, you know, I mean he said that he wanted to explore that side that was sort of unexplored. Yeah, I think hes in a hes got to be in a relationship. I mean Zen, you know, theres no question, I mean if youre a Zen priest a real Zen priest you cant have a relationship. He sounds like a neat guy. He sounds like a guy that Id like to talk to, you know, because of the western and the, you know, like the kind of pop thing and the rock thing along with the with the

intrigue of Vedanta, you know, the man spent 10 years in a monastery its very interesting to me. John knows him, John Schlenck knows him and thinks hes a good guy. That guy also who wrote it is really interesting Peter Ochiogrosso. The guy that writes for for Lingo and does the really the best writing in all of Lingo. I really like his writing a lot. But it was interesting, wasnt it? I mean, you know, it brings up it brings up some... Washing the toilet with his hair that was pretty that was pretty great. Look at that face. What kind of face is that? Just look at that face right now. Ay, what are you doing there? Ay! Ay! Ay! Aw. Come here, come here. Bets. Cmere. Yeah so oh, shes so clean. Come here! So so go on. Sit. Sit. Sit. No I think hes a Vedantist, but, you know, I dont think its any different, uh, I dont think its any different at all. Look at look at. One kid goes and now now theyre all starting to go. One kid got the courage to go on the grass and now theyre all are. You know I dont think he has a problem with Vedanta. I think hes very much a Vedantist. Look at this. Theyre theyre just like fightin, theyre doing a fighting ritual. Watch this. These kids are shouting its kind of an amazing ritual. Look at this fat kid putting it. Well, it looks like theyve got a big kid and a and a slim kid. A slim quick one and a big logy one. Some kind of wrestling. Ha ha ha ha. Junior got crushed. I guess weight wins there, not agility. He just went right under. No they are they are having fun. That little guy just got mashed. You know you think we should drop Bets Bets right there in that grassy area with them? Think theyd theyd have a good time chasing her around? It are they just.. Hey! This guy just got himself hurt! I dont feel that at ours, though. You know not really I mean theres no pujas and no theres really no I kind of find that its geared to an incredibly practical wildly practical thing. Like like devotion and worship in front of the idols and, you

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know, all sorts of oils and fruits and rituals and here comes the mother to tell the kids to get out of there. Partys over, kids. You know? Um, whoa! Oh here they go look. Oh, they just pushed him down. He just got bashed. This big guy he just got bashed. At any rate, um, I think that, you know, I think its I dont know I find it Swamis always addressing like stress stress New York City western issues and attitudes. The fat kid. Yeah, it looks like. Ay! She loves the sandbox. Hey. Hey Bets. Go on. Go get it get it get it get it get it get it she always loves sand get it get it get it git some git some git some. Who are you the dog? I found... I found a tit. What did you find? He smiled. I liked I feel like, I dont know, like Vivekananda when you read his stuff it doesnt feel particularly Indian it feels really hip and western and open to me. It really does. I dont know, maybe its just me maybe Im not critical enough but it hits me really in the right spot this stuff I mean it kind, it sort of really consistently. Yeah, youre gonna get a bigger one at Cyber. Youll get a big cyber headache. Is cyber a headache? Do you have your watch on? Oh shit, weve got to go. Look what time it is. Its 5 of 7. We said wed be there at 7:15. Betty girl lets go for a walk, come on. Betty girl Betty girl. So I met with these ladies from the, uh, synagogue today. From the Eldridge Street Synagogue. Yeah that was it was interesting, you know, they they dont really know what theyre doing really but they theyre kind of thinking of having a few Bets stay having a few artists come in and Bets stay in the main synagogue and doing some sound pieces. You know, I dont they didnt really seem like they really knew too much what was going on or that much about it but they were kind of shopping around and, you know, it seems like an interesting project. Theyve got these logs that are in Yiddish. Wow. Great sweater, huh? That was cute that tight... Why do girls wear tight sweaters? They

want to show off a good pair of tits. Or at least at least a good Wonderbra!! Guys dont know the difference. I mean that I mean that was so tight as if she was wearing nothing at all. Shes got her bellybutton peeking out. Yeah. Summers good for that. Of course I like that. Its a tit parade. Right. Right. Its a fucking tit parade. Oh Cheryl, look at this dog! Cheryl look at this guy, yeah. Just a puppy, right? Look at the beard. Oh well, spinoni. Whats his name? Do you like him? Is he your dog? Does everybody stop you and ask you? Do you get sick of it? Look at him. Ive never seen a spinoni. Yeah, see you later. Bye. Good kid. He was so cute, wasnt he? Its a tit parade. Dogs a pussy magnet and its a tit parade. Yeah that looks good, oh, that looks really good, yeah. Im probably gonna wanna get a little dinner after this, you know, well see how long we stay there. She we call Andrea? Should we just meet her at the Roxy? Where is the Roxy, 17th St? I mean how are they theyre probably all gonna pile in a cab and go over there. Maybe we should just meet them there. What do you think? Yeah. Heres a cute dog too. Look at it it looks like it just got a haircut. I think its from Ive seen it in my building. Hes a cutie, huh? What did you think of the spinoni? Look now Bets is gonna pull shes its that time of the night. She she knows whats coming. Just dropping the dog off no no no just dropping the dog off. What I gotta sign my dog in? Get outta here! What should I do, sign the dogs name? Rover. Seriously, I mean, this dog doesnt need to be signed in. Its a mascot. Animals dont sign in. They thought that was the funniest thing they ever heard. Such nice guys. Theyre cracking up. Cmon. Cmon Rover. Look look look you see, its already setting in. Yeah, shes so sandy. Yep. Filthy, I just washed her. You signed the dog in as Rover. Rover. Thats an old fashioned word, huh? Hey Rover. Hey there how you doin alright. Come on in, Bets. She know.

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Shes shes smart in her own way. Oh yeah some really really praying in my heart and soul. Lets call Andrea and tell her well meet her meet her at the place. I dont feel like dealing with da web. Its just a machine. Oh, fucking pain in the ass. Okay cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon! Put it down! No no no cmon were yakking, lets go, were together. Its so hard to get anywhere, isnt it? Its so hard to leave your house in the city. You like the little cards I made for the UbuWeb? Theyre cute, arent they? What does it look like? Why are you coming. Cause youre gonna look you need a job, thats why and I I need jobs and if I get jobs you get jobs. Right. That would that would be nice. You do, do ya? People ask me that all the time and I say I really cant tell you. Whats todays date, the 18th right? 4 18. I like you know the girl the the Eldridge Street wanted one wanted today so theyre like how much does it cost how long does it take? Im like well, we could do something really simple that could take one day or we could do something amazingly complex that could take a year, you know, I mean what I cant say that, I have to see what it is. People always ask me that its so not answerable in in any kind of a way. So, you know, like this woman Im doing this job for the NYU thing. Shes got 1500 bucks to spend I said look that will get us started. I said Ill be honest with you I said cause shes gonna want an estimate for more work I said you know I end up if this ends up taking me a lot longer than I think, then my estimate is gonna be much higher the next time around. But if it doesnt, you know, my estimate will be lower. 1500 bucks I can I mean I know I can whip that off, you know, if I worked full time for a week if I worked 5 days straight on it I can, you know, I mean I can have it done like that, you know, thats 40 hours and 1500 dollars a week, thats really good money, thats like 40, 35 bucks an hour. So, you know,

but... that seats a little bit scuzzed up? Who? So at this thing I dont think theyre gonna be asking how much does it cost I mean everybodys whos there knows what it costs. I mean people will be like oh Im looking for a designer I have a client. I dont know, I dont know what its gonna be. Im not really feeling like 1000% up for this kind of thing, right. What? I had a talk with your father. That was that was funny. About you guys hold it, you know, you kids you and your mother putting one pea back in the refrigerator. Did you talk to anybody today about plans did you speak to Greece did you speak to France? He was really nutty huh? Was he busy? I guess he wasnt really busy not not much to do but sit around and gossip New Age with you? Thats not a good sign. Was the phone ringing off the hook? Did you take a test? Did he like your portfolio? Well, I mean hes still in business and I saw him 3 years ago and so he must be doing something. Cheryl. Kachoo. Cheryl, what was that other one? Hey-ya! Hey-ya! Hey-ya! Thats pretty good. Thats really good. Thats very good. Its great. A little kid singing. Singing in the subways? Very cool. Oh god. I would play something like that on my show. I played a cut of we have a cut of a 10 month, uh, a 10 week old, no, 10 month old baby singing, you know, like on the track. Yeah, just making noises and stuff. It was really good. That was good. Thats thats good music. Here we go we gotta give these guys some money. Thats pretty pretty good. Everybody thinks so. Gotta get off. Thats terrific, really, theyre doing really well too. Took them from 5 to 8, thats good. Well, you know, well see what he can do. Hes gotta eat, right? Maybe, you know, maybe theyre just illegal immigrants or something and they cant do much but, you know, its kind of an amazing thing, yeah, its like the kid grows up to be this great singer... yeah, I used to sing on the subways with my father. Its really pret-

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ty pretty remarkable. I like that, you know. That guy, I mean the Rocky Mountain High guy was just a bummer. His whole thing was a bummer. If it hadnt been for that odd encounter, but I guess thats New York. That was such a that was such a memorable thing. That was as good as the as the swinger as the swinger. We see some funny shit on the subway, yeah. We like the subway, dont we? We gotta look for some cabinet. We gotta look for some cabinets for our cabinet. Well, I may I may I may. Fancy place. No. Its just a strange and fancy place for working people. Alright they look like nurses shoes. Cmon. Cmon Cheryl, were were running late. Look at the place we used to go for therapy is shut down or maybe its not. Yeah, uh, I dont know. I dont like em. They didnt hit they didnt hit me right. Yeah yeah, no its good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good for them, you know, yeah. So, where are they? Oh, theyre down a little further. I either need a drink I dont know whats wrong. Im so so out of it. Is it here? Oh god, look at this place. All these shirts. Yick. Not mine. Were sick of each other. My dream is go what were gonna do this summer. Starting with Greece. Now thats, thats the dream. Slow down, girl. I dont why. I mean I didnt practically do anything today. Ever since Monday, ever since I drank and stayed up all night. I didnt used to be. Gettin old! At 35 cant do the things I used to do at 25. Thank god. Huh? Wait a minute! Is this is? It looks so different here. So clean. So clean in here. Wow! It is so clean here. It is so... I didnt recognize it in here. Its so clean. Unbelievable. Andrea, its so clean in here. Ive never I didnt recognize this place its so clean. Look at everybodys got a rag in their hand look at this! This is good. Get a give me some Windex. Why didnt you say anything? Yeah I was, yeah, Im glad I missed that. Im surprised that... yeah, I wish somebody had, I wish somebody had said that. Thats exact-

ly what Cheryl said to me when she came in. I heard the whole... I hate to say no to artists. It is so clean here. Yeah, I cant I cant figure out when to when to push that. I mean it just keeps shutting, shutting everything down. I had to take it off my machine cause I just couldnt handle it cause I just couldnt handle that stupid warning, you know, I hate those things. That youve got to register it? No, this one was coming up every time. Yeah. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah yeah then just hit it down then release it out. I tried like 6 different ways of doing it and it never worked. Its not that important, you know, I mean its... yeah yeah cause I tried I tried sort of a command shift and I tried all sorts of different things and nothing was really working I said finally Im wasting my time just to get a silly looking look on my screen. Enough is enough already. Find out, yeah. Because if that was the case then anybody was is restarting without their extensions who is holding down a shift key... No seriously, I mean then anybody its gotta be theres got to be some other trick. I thought it made it made it look groovy enough, you know? And I got Gregs buttons and that it, yeah, you know, it was fun, like it. I like the look. Anyway, yeah, cmon. Lets look through your mail. Lets find it. And theyre so much more interesting this way than they were than they were originally. Suit is good. Suit of. Cause did you did you actually finish that? That bottle. I cant its just incredible. Its so clean in here I didnt recognize it. Its unbelievable. Good job. Youve really go everybody cleaning so beautifully. Nice to meetchya. Yeah, its really catchy. No no no I like that The Primary Group. What does it mean? Primary. Andrea, your window looks terrible. This is this is this is not this is not this is not acceptable. This is really not acceptable. This is not acceptable these windows. You know, I didnt recognize it when I walked in. Unbelievable. Oh, for the party I was last

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here. It looked totally different. I was thinking more of cleanliness. Your area is just so just beautiful now. I was gonna say this was a mess. No really, I was gonna say this desk was a mess. What are you gonna do with all that other mess? Andrea your windows look like shit. I cant believe you did those windows? They look awful. This is not this is unacceptable. This is unacceptable. Stay. Benjamin, get rid of her and listen, will you straighten this desk up please? No, his windows look good. His desk is a mess. And what about that bar? What are you gonna do about that bar? Paint it for tomorrow. Clean it up! Bye. Oh, we got to go all the way down to the Knitting Factory? Are you coming? Youre such a celebrity on the web. Did you see Andreas picture? But is says that that was Total New Yorks site. Space. Where was that? Was that upstairs? Whos in the background? Were you in the background? Why are you guys cleaning so desperately? Did you clean too? Did you clean your area? I would love walking in there and seeing all you guys with Windex bottles. I think its so adorable that everybody The Primary Group has got to clean. The one will go. The one will take us, uh, to the Knitting Factory. Lets see. Wheres... yeah, you guys are tiny. You can count as one. Cheryl, I think Claudia may may be tinier. How how are you whos tinier. Cheryl are you tinier than Claudia? Oh, no. Shes 5 2. Andrea and Viv. Youre were all about the same size. I saw Maya she said she she was coming yeah she was that was nice. She said she just had lunch with you. It looks good but I had the I had to get the, uh, what is that that silly new browser called from Netscape, that preview thing that alph, what is it, Alpha or Atlas. Yeah, I had I had, well, its Java. 2 0 1 does not does not have Java. 2 0 1? For what, for what? 2 0 1? No, its not I mean I have it it doesnt it never goes. I had to what 2 0 1? What do you think? What do you mean its beyond you. I

thought you... The what? I got 2 0 1 and it doesnt have the it doesnt have the its not Java enabled so I have to get do you have Open Transport 1 1? One you have 7 5 3? How do you like 7 3? Is it stable? I am. I love it. Really. 7 3? Is it? This is good Im gonna really? Im gonna do this. Well, Im gonna Im gonna Im gonna get Im gonna do this because 7 5 2 is real shaky and I need to see Cheryls piece on that Java enabled thing which only runs with 1 1. Actually I spend half my day downloading software. No no no Im gonna have somebody do it Im not gonna put Im not gonna do it myself. Im not going to yeah, but I, yeah, but what? Cause you have reinstall 7 5 2, a fresh copy of 7 2. Oy vey. Ill pay someone. OK, come over! Come over, Viv! Of course I have a Zip Drive. What kind of question is that? I do. Alright, you wanna come over? What are you doing after work tomorrow? You have nothing else to do, see? So, Claudia the numbers and the versions and all this are not part of your domain? The problem I find with the with 7 2 and the Open Transport 1 0 8 is that once you I can get up and stay up forever, sounds like sex, but once I go down, I just cant get back up again. Its true. I mean, its true. Do you have that problem? Like youve got to restart your whole machine if you wanna just jump back on again? It just doesnt that just I heard 1 1 Open Transport 1 1 fixes that. I had to talk to the techie and I was like, I can get up once and I, you know... I was like. No but I did it just felt like I can, you know, it was really weird. It was really strange. So I I find it so bothersome because all day long all Im doing all Im doing is is is starting and restarting my goddamned machine a thousand times a day. No no. Im glad to hear you have that problem, I mean, not glad for you but Im glad to hear it. Its nice, no, dont dont take it personally. Its not like a personal thing. Seriously. You do you do a good job of keeping your com-

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puter clean. I know, why me? I always feel like, why me? I get this victim mentality, like, maybe I should just get a maybe I should just get a Windows machine. So then, what do you what do you do you design the sites? Which is really nice. Beautiful. I really like it. Cheryl. Can we buy tokens, Cheryl? Yes. So so what happened then? How do you finish? So now youre. Oh so youre not youre not like working there full time youre like freelancing at Total? Primary. Good name. And youre in charge? Congratulations. That sounds like an enormous enormous amount of responsibility. So youve youve been working at home? But youve been working for Total while working at home. Theyre really great looking, I mean, theyre really beautiful sites. You did that? Can you send me a list of those URLs so I can look at them that you did. Itd be nice. Nice to see more. You know, its all right, I mean. Some things some things call for that, you know? Not everything can be art. Why? When did you start going in on site there? Oh no really? Youve still been working at home? Where do you live? What did what do you have live? Oh, that is really happening. Good. Corchrans only 15 pages? They dont know. If somebody doesnt know the web they... Its what he didnt do. Uh, impotent. Who tried to, yeah. She was beautiful too. Somebody you dont know. Somebody out of the art world. Whats Steve really famous for? I cant I can only think that he cant hes impotent. What else is he famous for? Oh, he crashed our wedding. I forgot about that. Asshole. Thats right. He came to our wedding, can you believe that? Oh my god. So you so theyve got 15 pages up sorry. Just like weird pictures. No. Its amazingly busy. Yeah. Cool. Wow. So are they what are they using the people at Total New York to do to I took it to mean or. To make these to make these sites. The whole the everything. No, but all the projects that youre working on. Yeah yeah. Sounds like

an enormous task. No I mean dont I mean cant you just see the caliber of peoples work by visiting the sites? I mean that I cant imagine a better a better thing. Just getting a list of URLs I mean its its... Huh, I wanna go. He says its the most crowded thing hes been to in 5 years. Who is that? Steven. Thats Steven! Ahhhhhh! So if it suck well just go, you know, I mean well just hang. Yeah I live right around the corner. I love it. I love it. I love it. Its great. What? Yeah. So Andrea, have you heard of what Claudia is up to? This is amazing. Have you heard of... no no Primary Group. Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing though. Its kind of amazing. Yeah, we should. Where are we on? Yeah, it is. Its one over. So, have you been collecting URLs and people and... Hes not joking. Look at this crowd out in front. Email her. Why dont you just why dont you just go downstairs and. Andrea. She works. She will be. Theyre making her a space in the back. Oh, god. He wasnt kidding. This is good. This is like Woodstock, I mean. This is good. This is very good. I could have brought the dog. This is like Woodstock. I want the I want the brown acid. Brown acid. Andrea did you say this was a total pick up joint anyway? Ah ha ha shes got shes got. You guys must know everybody here. Claudia, you must know people here, do you? Cheryl, we we must know a thousand people here. Why dont we. The whole. Have you have you been in the Knitting Factory? Well, lets lets why dont we try to go lets try to squeeze in and see whats going on. I did. I did, yeah I think itd be fun look at these guys wearing a tag. It is it is a pick up thing, huh? See the way see the look he was giving you guys? Or maybe it was me. Yeah, maybe nobodys inside. Maybe its dead empty inside. Lets give it a shot. Cmon. Oh, OK. You guys wanna come back in a little while? Wanna get a drink and try to come back again? Who is that? Oh, I love her stuff. I know her stuff. OK, lets lets just try. Lets

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give it a try. I dont know her. This is not so bad. This is not so bad. Why dont we go inside? Lets see what else is going on? Maybe we can go downstairs. This isnt so bad. What do you think? What? Hot, but... Claudia, do you know anyone? Cheryl, do you know anyone? Well, what should we do? Theyre upstairs. Should we go back and find them? Yeah OK, yeah. I like this. Its not bad. Cheryl it was much more crowded when we came to see Yoko the other night. Yep. She was so good. She was great. Did you you didnt get to go, did you? Youre with Total but you didnt get to do it. Oh, arent we... You know anyone here? Thats you. That me. I mean Alfred Jarry but but this is my this is my company. Um, well I make web sites. Check it out. You already know. You already know, yeah. Put your money where your mouth is. This guys hogging the scene. Who are these people? Its occupied. Is this your card... Hi Alex, you wanna come have a drink with us? Around uh uh uh at Teddys around the corner. Were gonna... see you around. OK, were going were going to Teddys. Come to Teddys with us. Ay. Everybodys so white. Its really if this is a portrait of. It aint it aint a multicultural, uh, I dont see I dont see I mean. Well, Im Jewish, does that count for anything? Alex, give her a card. Kenny. Hi, nice to meet you. Hi Im Kenny. How you doin? Are you not enjoying this? I mean to I go to shows here all the time its always this crowded, right? I was here for Yoko. It was more it was much more crowded. Yeah, it was packed. I couldnt move. Yeah. Did he work with these guys or no? How do we know how do we know these guys? I think Ive been there. You gave me that, yeah, you gave me that. Whats your URL? Do you know Alex? Look, Ill tell you. Theyre an art site. Its all art, like, uh visual art, fine art stuff. Its very cool, very hip. Its all like artists its all artists designing. By what? Who does we know? Give us some names of

these friends. Oh, I get it, OK. Kenny. Ubu. Kenny. Same thing. Ubu is shit in French, right? Shit web. Yeah no no no, it is. I mean, you know Alfred Jarry, right? The great great Surrealist Dadaist wrote wrote Pere Ubu Alfred Jarry wrote Pere Ubu uh Ubu Roi and you know the band Pere Ubu they took their name from that as well. Twentieth Century French Surrealist stuff. OK. So, uh, its father shit Pere Ubu or King Shit. So wanna you wanna join us for a drink Alex? Lets go. Lets go. Were gon youre cmon have a margarita, uh, a margarita with us. There you go. There you go. Cmon cmon Alex. Join us later. At least. What an asshole. I know. He didnt he didnt know who Alfred Jarry was. He had he had never heard of the band Pere Ubu I mean, I was like were in other worlds, you know? Wait a minute we lost Cheryl and... Ubued? Yeah it was Ubu, yeah. Oh really? Thats cool. Were going it looks like Cheryl and I are going to spend two two months in Bordeaux this summer. Oh, in Beaujolais! Well, you know... Claudia grew up in Paris. Cheryl, yeah. It was excellent. Is that nice? Is Beaujolais nice? You can be honest. Is it a good place to spend... is it a good place to spend the summer? Were thinking of going for July and August. Yeah. Uh, around? Well Cheryl theyre giving us artists in residence there, some woman whose got this big chateau and the government gives her money if she here she goes shes shes describing it. So anyway, the government gives her money if she has artists come and hang out. We were thinking that would be really fun, you know? Um, Cheryl has shown in France and shes got a dealer in Paris, so so, uh, so through her French connections like oh, OK that sounds really good. Ive never been to... did I say Beaujolais? What does it look like there? What does it look like? Wow. Wow. Um, do you still have family in Paris? Oh, where did you go to high school? Oh, hmmm. So like youve

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just been in New York or Paris pretty much your whole life. Whered you go to school? In Paris. You went to Parsons in Paris? I did foundation at Parsons. Uh huh. I had a good time, um, I dont know, it was a long time ago. It was OK, yeah and then I switched to RISD. I went to NYU then I went to Parsons then I finished at RISD. Uh, I got out of RISD in 84. RISD was cool, yeah. RISD was really fun. It was a lot better than Parsons, I mean, you know, I studied sculpture. Parsons is no place to study fine art, thats for sure. These people are someone we can sit here. OK. Yeah. Liquor Store Bar, lets go there. Oh, that looks just as crowded, Andrea. This looks just as crowded. We can try it. I hate New York. What were thinking, yeah. Hey, you know, were just gonna be hanging out. This is part of it. Yeah, no, well get some chairs and stuff, here heres a stray chair. Well get a table. Wheres she going? It sounds like shes got a lot of work. Nice nice move. Nice move. Whats she say NYU Law, pal. Shes really nice this woman. She sounded kinda crazy but shes really really bright. Did you meet her. Shes like like this very intelligent, black, hip, feminist professor at NYU Law. You know. Quiet, you know. I always expect her behavior to be awful. The creeps Ive worked for. You know, really. Who, Claudia? How come your name appears like nowhere on your site? Yeah. Yeah but Robert Atkins works for the Village Voice. Yeah, he writes for the Voice so where does the Voice get the money, I mean, yeah yeah. I like I like this guy. He almost got us a table at Teddys. So, uh, how did you like that Cybersuds? Yeah, this one in particular. Oh, boy. Claudia, hows your French? Is it good? Cheryl you should talk French. Hey this good. Shes Cheryls at Alliance Franais right now. I I dont speak a word of it. I dont speak a word of it. Are you kidding? Im like most Americans. I speak one one language. This one. Did you see that thing

that they had under the Cyber Times article about how English is the lingua lingua franca of the Internet. Did you read that? I like that cyber I like that section actually. I think its better than the regular paper. Yeah, the business section. Who ever thought Id be reading a business section? Yeah, PDF. Are they still making that? Wait a minute. Do you just have it emailed to you or or. Where do you I I thought I remembered when it first came on, no when they first came on it was that. It was only PDF. Yeah I did yeah they have a website. Have you been there? You love this. How long have I know you? How many years? Uh, I want a beer. Yeah. What do you only have 4 bucks? We got some money darling? You got 4 more than I have? OK OK. My wife my wife my wife only has a hundred bucks a hundred dollars on her so let me give you like about 8 bucks here. That should buy us about 2 beers, shouldnt it? Is that an is that an anti-Semitic comment? Huh? Oh Beth. Beth, yeah. He doesnt seem Canadian, does he? Yeah, youre not. We were in Banff for 3 months at the Banff Center. Hey, there we go. Yeah, thats what we did. After Banff we drove to we drove smack out to Vancouver. It was fun. You know it looks like a Banff earring, yeah. We lived out of the back of a truck for a long time. It was fun. There were animals, I mean, there were like these big animals that came right up to you. Is that what they were called? Frightening, these things. How does that sound, Claudia? Interesting or? Where did you go? Where did you go? Where do you live? Nice place to visit. Horrible place to live. I liked your email. You can they can stop the hammering in the street now thank you. She she can she really gives good gives good email, doesnt she? Are you Ill bet youre a good typist too. Is the tone of the office there sarcastic? Benjamin seems just like a totally silly guy. Well, I know that you are and Im learning that you are. So he he I hope he

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wasnt taking my offense at my windows comments there. No, it was a joke. Claudia, how do you like Benjamin? Oh, well you guys go do the French thing? You get you get along with Benjamin? Is is Total New York like Benjamin or is he kind of how is he viewed at Total. I met him. I met him when I was talking to you. The new the new program guy the guy with the really big nose and the really short hair? Yeah. We met him when I was talking to you he came in and Andrea said, oh heres our new... You like him. Whats him name? Andrea, you had a crush on Mateo? Yeah, well I like guys with big noses. What can I say? It died? What happened? What happened? Who? Who? Mateo was flirty? Email? No I mean when you just said to Claudia youre gonna mail email her instructions to get on the WAC list when shes downstairs. What are you you guys have no email nobody really to email? We went to... Excuse me? Shes not what? How is she getting paid? Is she well paid? Uhhhh. Do you know do you know we went to check Vivs email on Monday, she had 85 messages? Can you believe that? Oh, I thought that was all for one day. I was really impressed. How many how many messages do you get a day? Is that it? What does this mean. Oh, Im so so glad my Mom isnt, yeah. Thats wonderful? Oh good good. Where are you from? And how long have you been in New York for I know at least since 89 when you went to the Whitney Program. Um, did you go to school here? Where did you do school? At Madison. We were there. Uh, Long Island. Of my 35 years on this planet Ive lived 34 of them within 20 minutes of where were sitting now. Not to say that I havent traveled but if I had my way I would never leave the city. I would never leave Manhattan I love I will live here the rest of my life. I love it here. I mean this is the only place I really feel is home. I it is I got my familys here but also like I feel really, like any other city in the world

I dont feel quite like, oh this is this is where I live. I havent no. Well get there. Ive never been to Italy. Ive never been to Southern Europe. Ive been to India but Ive never been to Italy. Yeah. No that weird like like place like where they have sort of that weird art sidewalk. What is what do you do there? What? Oh wow. Wow. Are you what do you do are you a programmer or are you...? Yeah, what is that what do you actually do? Oh, I see. I was and hes Canadian and hes Canadian. We like him. We like him. Oh right, Cheryl. Its not so inner. Do you like John, Claudia? Imagine if if Claudia worked on on your office when the sun came in youd be blinded. So do you act at all? Yeah. No, but we saw Rent. Really, shes spending all her money on fashion or is it family money. What do you think? Somethings not somethings not right right. Where do you live? Oh, I live on Thompson 32. Between Broome and Grand. Are you 170? 170? Right right right. I love it. I love love it there. Im on the wes Im on the east side. We are on the east side. And I work in the Cable Building. Did you know that? Oh, its great. God, its such a cool building. Ive been there since 90. 5 is the other side of 7. Theyre connected, right 7. Its like an artists building. Its like a lot of artists are in that building. Yeah. Who who were you with? Who were you with? And Spring and Lafayette in the East River Savings Building? Thats an expensive building. The Ca I I was gonna look to move from the Cable. The Cables really my office is 275. Ive got such oh, it pretty small but its big enough to do what I need to do there. Its like probably, I dont know, 300 square feet, something like that? Its fine. I mean when I was making objects I had a bigger space and uh, then I downsized I had like 5, maybe it was 600 square feet there maybe more maybe like. I downsized. Maybe like 600 and I was, yeah its cheap its always less than a dollar a

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square foot there. Its really not. I love it there. I can bring my dog with me. They love dogs they encourage dogs its a great address everybody loves to go there so its its, you know, its good people watching cool people in the building. I mean like the people that I my computer, you know, where all my computer things happen in the Cable Building. I use NAFT. Do you know NAFT? Nobody knows them. Theyre Naft International. It stands for Not A Fucking Thing. Right? And these guys are like theyre a dealer of theyre a Mac dealer and they provide service on premises its like amazing. I buy all my equipment from them. Yeah no I buy everything from them. Every if if if my computer just flips out for a moment. Yeah they come right up they dont charge I mean, you know, theyre really theyre lovely. Im nervous. No no I know so I do do not expect you to do it but I Im nervous Im nervous. If I couldnt figure out how to turn the warning off on on on Aaron... Well let me know because it was funny I had it configured I wrote you I looked my machine looked looked just like Windows. Well, maybe its the way I configured it but that kind of 3D thing, uh, looks. Well, it sort of has a real my Microsoft Word looked exactly like Windows. It was really bizarre. It was like like blue and I actually got menus to kind of like stay down, you know, like on Windows when, you know, lower on Windows things they drop but Im working on Word 6 0 1 and you can also kind of hit your. Its nice. But you can you can hit you can hit in Word you can hit your command key and and you can then the things get underlined, you know, like like little I love that its very yeah like no I love which I really like, you know, you can hit an e and. I was using Quick Keys until it crashed my system too much. I love Quick Keys. Did you have trouble trouble with it? I did everything with Quick Keys, man, it was bitchin. I didnt have to use my mouse

ever. No it was bitchin I mean for every little thing for every little thing I could have ZTerm dial Panix just by doing an option p and it was like zap, man, and it would dial it for me. Oh yeah. Itll do it. Itll do it. Itll definitely do it. I love ZTerm. I mean I I I cant stand, you know. No, I was pushing for Netscape. Cause well thats thats just just about as easy. Yeah, I know. I Ive been reading about this. It doesnt up what do you mean it doesnt upgrade the mail? What do you mean refresh it? I always empty my cache. I empty my cache about about every 3 days anyway. Yeah, thats true. I I I dont know, I havent had a problem with that. Its weird it picks my mail up every day as I need to. But anyway, I like pine, you know, I really I see you do to. I know you do I I could tell by the style of your mail. I love hitting that control k and cutting my lines and. Who is it? Klinkostein? Or hes just pr or is he cute? Is he cute? Well it well thats right. Well, if he was cute. Well, thats true Alix Alix took care of that with the new guy though. Hes cute and hes nice. But, yeah yeah thats important. Claudia how is your boyfriend cute or not really? What does he do? Of? Oh, I like them. I like the Dewars. I no I do because and youre gonna understand this. I love that one with the uh uh with the mens group because of my dad. Our our parents are both New Age, yeah. Our our parents are our fathers are both New Age and that one hit me right. I like that. No, I like those ads I think. Well, wait did he come what does producing mean do he what does producing mean? Did he come up with the concepts? So hes hes so somebody comes up with the concepts and he makes it happen. But I think theyre really ironical. I dont think, right. I dont think that theyre I dont think that theyre I dont that theyre I dont think theyre misogynist because I think theyre just amazingly ironical. What do you do you agree? Do you think theyre. I actually think theyre kind of

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no, you hate them. I kind of think theyre funny, I dont know I mean theyre just another world. Theyre theyre not part of. So much unix do you know for your gig. No no I you know more than me. I mean it it you actually have to be have have a unix prompt open. Well the question. Yeah, I know but who wants to who wants to. Listen this is such a good question. I know I do it all the time what do you mean you tell me you cant telnet to panix? I telnet, yeah. I learn the net through unix completely. I didnt I mean I came in. Well, no I before before there was graphical browsers all there was was the unix shell so how do you... No. No. I I always I start on ZTerm, but I mean there was no graphical browser. Well, no, I didnt we talk about this? Its just like DOS? Did I tell you this. No but I worked on the no no I was trained in AutoCad. Its only as DOS platform. So, its like, oh yeah, like unix, oh yeah, its just like DOS, got it. I mean, thats easy but DOS is easy. Well, just hook me up. I mean, but we know how to get around in these environments. I like them. I like unix. Yeah, its easy, yeah. I well listen, were Mac were Macintosh, so obviously we believe in that. Yeah, but were you Windows before? Yeah yeah yeah. I um, right, so when I so when I learned the Web there was not even, I mean, there was some primitive version of Mosaic but I wasnt gonna bother so I had to learn, you know, it did. I think everybody who works on the Web should manually learn how to FTP through unix. Its easy and its sort of satisfying and then and then sz it back down to your desktop. I mean, yeah, sure. rz it up to your desktop. I mean I still I still do that and wherever I am I know that I can do this but I have a question for you. Can I turn my Macintosh into a unix box? Can I actually learn is there some way that I can actually learn Perl on my Mac with my dialing in? No I wont telnet, Ill just ZTerm. But without paying the phone bills. For

what? I have telnet I telnet well you have I telnet to, uh, 2 6, yeah, right. Yeah and then work on Panix yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, well sure. I know I wish there was something that I could do that would actually make it function like that. I could. Heres my idea. I know. Yeah, no no no. Yeah, but I wish there was like I could double click on a program and it would open up a program that would emulate, um, unix so I could learn programming easily on my machine without tying up my phone line and paying phone bills. My phone bills are enormous every month. I cant stand it. You dont pay phone bills at your job but I pay commercial phone rates and if I hang out on the phone for like, you know, forever it it starts to really add up. 6 oh oh yeah. Yeah. Hmmm hmmm hmmm. One. I can only afford one. I really what we pay between home and my office and Cheryls studio for fucking phone, I mean really its like 300 dollars. Its insane. So, I mean I can I can. Oh, I cant start with that, I mean that the the Ive heard its just an absolute nightmare. And its and ISDN I was noticing that at your your ISDN. I wasnt that fast, yeah. ISDNs real expensive, its a real hassle to put in, its a real cost to get put in. If I can get some kind of big gig, you know, Id do it if, you know, its, you know. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Um, I think 28 8 28 8 moves alright. I dont I dont really have much of a problem. You know, hmm, I still, you know, I mean... What the ISDN? What is the startup? Its really. Oh, thats not thats not that much. Its, uh, you know, that wouldnt kill me. Yeah yeah. You know I can look into it I mean Ive got guys knocking on my door at the Cable Building try asking me about ISDNs Ive always said no no, you know, people are always looking for that. Yeah. I dont know, Im like... yeah, I am. Yeah, Ive got plenty to do Im maintaining like 6 sites and, you know, its just you know what Ive learned with the web thing is like a site youre mar-

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ried to a client. Its a long term thing. Ive actually turned down jobs because I didnt really like the people because, you know, like youve got to maintain these things, youve got keep them up its always a constant, yeah, youve got to fix it when it breaks. You know, but maintenance is where I can make my money. I have my favorite server is called Crocker Communications. Youve never heard of them. Theyre in theyre in somewhere in Massachusetts I dont even know where but theyre terrific, theyre so good. So cheap. 50 dollars a month buys a domain name and unlimited space. And they are lovely, I mean they Ive never worked with a server, uh, with a provider that is, um, you know, as reliable or as sweet or as wonderful as these people. I love them. And Ive worked Ive worked with a lot of different providers. Yeah yeah well actually I have a guy here in New York that Im working with now. In a guy, um, hes in New York. Hes running a Mac server. Thats fun. I can I can Timbuktu in which is interesting. And I can pull his desktop up on to mine. Have you heard of this? Yeah, you can pull his desktop and I can open his files, I can open run his programs on my desktop. Its actually really sort of interesting. But, yeah, um, these people that I work with the unix server up there theyre theyre terrific. I put everybody I can onto them. Theyre just great. I have a scripter there. My scripters at Crocker. I have clients in L.A., clients in Western Massachusetts, I have clients in upstate New York, you know, it doesnt matter. I mean this is this is the best thing about this thing. Its totally non-geographical. I mean, I adore it. I I I adore this. I like not not not having to go somewhere, you know, every day. And these people I work for are crazy. Im glad I dont have to deal with them. No no theres so much, I mean, theres so much to learn. You wanna go? You wanna take me to one? Lets go. When do we wanna go? Whens the

next one? I like Daniel, yeah. Lets do it, no I mean. I also I mean, its so many people who are so isolated. I mean basically were not talking you guys are in a really, yeah, its one one over. Uh, we should pro, I I, Cher we should probably call it a night. I think were the same. Claudia, how about you are you heading out? Yeah, yeah. Were were in the hip hip, what is it? The hip cyber area code? In your your article. Did you see Andrea. 10012. Yeah, what are you guys up there? Well they said youre cool too. Anyway, I I wanna go so let me know. No the thing I was saying is were all you guys are not isolated cause youre working I was talking to Claudia. So because you work at home you have been Ive been working at home, I mean were like a like a lot of people that are just Im alone all day in my office, you know, doing kind of doing web stuff from Massachusetts to Los Angeles so that what shes talking about is good, you know, kind of real contact. You guys you guys met through one, right? Was that fun? I dont know, Viv, do you think hes cute? Mateo. Claudia? I wanna Paki. I wanna eat there and then well go up and pick up Bets. OK? So, Daniel, how can we get in touch with you at...? How can how can we be in touch with you? Oh, you got his card. OK, good. And you have my I gave you I gave you one of those, yes, the Ubu, the UbuWeb. The big one the big one, yes. Yes. So, nice to meet you finally in the flesh. Be in touch. Let me know let me know. Let me know whats going on. Keep, yeah. Im here. Yeah. Yeah. Or or if you want to, um, yeah give a buzz if you wanna chat or anything or, you know, just see whats going on. OK, have fun. Its good. Its OK. So have fun moving in. When do you move in? And youre really gonna get moving on this, like, immediately? Cool. Alright, shall we? Were heading south, where are you headed. OK, Ill see ya. OK. Goodbye, honey. Were flying south. Im glad we Im glad we

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did this. This was better this was our own Cybersuds. This is better. We got to meet Daniel. No, this is Daniel. No, this is not Alex, no. Alex is other guy. Alex is. Beth Beth Beth. See ya. Im gonna Im gonna email you email me the trick. And tell me when that next thing is. Yes. Yeah, lets hang out or something. Im around. OK. Ay, you know? Even even extracurricular activities, lets go get a drink or something hang out. OK. Bye Alex. Uh, Kevin, Kevin. Yeah, so lets be in touch. Ill check this thing out. Im actually I work I work in. Bye, you guys. So, uh, Ill see you around the hood. I work in the Cable Building, which is Broadway and Houston above the Angelica yeah yeah yeah, so Im Im constantly. OK, I have a dog that Im attached to constantly. I have a, seriously, yeah Ive got this great boxer thats thats like nailed glued to me. Are you looking for, what, html or? Well, go go look at those U go to that site look at URLs I designed them and conceptualized them, though theres not any programming, any real sort of Java or anything on them, but Im not a programmer. Im a designer and a, so there you go. OK, have a look. OK you guys, have a good dinner. Bye Andrea. Andrea I dont Andrea whens the next event? Im not. Im gonna... is there is any, wait a minute is there any is there any news about, uh, Roberta Smith. You better you better check that paper, hon. Andreas a curator. It was unbelievable. Andrea, when does your show close? You should go see Andreas show. Its very cool, yeah yeah. See, you its another context. But I think Daniel would appreciate it. Give him give him the, um, the concrete URL. Its Christopher St. Oh, Andrea, what do you think of the new bookstore that opened up next to Kims Video. Its interesting. Its interesting theyre good. Its, uh, the Kims Video on the West side. Theyve got a place theyve got a place down here on, uh, on West Broadway and, uh, its its theres lots

of good stuff there. Theres a big Wittgenstein biography there for about 5 bucks. Im gonna go and pick one up. Bye. Andrea Andrea did you check out any of the my, URLs that I, uh, forwarded you? Theres some, its very hot. Oh, no no forget Bad Puppy. Weve weve bypassed it. This is this is, uh, Chris top 5 of the web. Bye. Well that was good. We made connection connection. I mean it seems like theres plenty o work. Im telling you, Cheryl. When work comes in well well be doing it together. Yeah yeah no. I mean I mean that I mean that girl Claudia seems just kind of dopey but shes got major major line on work for. Well, no no shes not dopey, I mean, shes really corporate, I mean, yeech, I cant stand her. She looks like a, she looks like one of the Littles friends. I mean like that that style is just intolerable. But shes got so much work. And she has nobody to do it. And and, you know, this could this could be... this is a place to go have a drink. Uh, its wet. Wet paint. I think this is a nice looking place. Somebody said they didnt like it. Can we see a menu? Do you serve lunch. This might have been a nice place to come with my mom tomorrow. But they dont theyre not serving lunch until next week. Is she here is she here every night? Yeah it really looks gross I mean its a bad scene and really expensive for food that you can get on Atlantic Avenue for 5 dollars I mean, its insane, really. Hold on a sec Ive got to see something. I think I have the wrong setting on here. Hey were just finishing we just finished but those guys are just over at Walkers. You know where Walkers is? Thats where those guys are. Wheres your card? Wheres your card to see these sites that youve done. Westport. Did you come all the way down from Westport for this? Its one of these. Thats ours. We do art sites. Yeah, have a look, its fun. Ive seen youre on the WAC list, right? Yeah, these mailing lists, theyre insane, huh? Yeah, just putting

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them into, putting them into, right into. Is that Eudora the full version or is it Eudora light. Does Eudora light do it? How do you set that up? Under filters, OK. So, go check these guys out over there. OK. Theyre there. Weve gotta meet some friends downtown. Nice to meet you. Hey, you know, this accomplished it, even if you only meet a few people. Yeah no I mean that Daniel said oh were looking for people Andrea said, you know, I mean, uh, Claudia really needs mucho work and. Uh, I dont know I think html stuff, you know, and this kind of thing I dont know design, Im not sure whatever it is well do it, uh, you know, no its good, Cher, you know, even if you just met a few people its a good its just a good thing to be out and around. I like Viv. Shes very nice, isnt she? Shes very cool. Yeah yeah, I mean what the heck I mean I I learned it and its nothing you couldnt learn. I have a feeling that like a lot of this stuff is going to be is going to be, you know, its not SiteMill, I mean you have to really I mean a lot nine nine tenths of its gonna be BBEdit putting in tags by hand things like that. Well, its not hard, I mean its, you know, it it it. It isnt hard. Yeah, it isnt hard. So, uh, I like Viv shes really nice, isnt she? Shes very cool and really funny and I mean that Claudia was I mean shes just bizarre for such a young girl, I mean, shes such an old woman for such a young girl. Shes like 20 shes gotta be like 25 or something and she just has copped this style thats so she looks like some old art collector or something. Shes in advertising, shes just like totally corporate, you know, its just all corporate but, you know, hey, you know, work is work, right, and uh, I guess thats what that was all about. I think it was a good thing we went. Its not what I really felt like doing but its a good thing we went. I like Benjamin. Hes really nice, isnt he? Hes a funny guy. Hes cute. I like his whole attitude is so dopey and sweet. Yeah. OK. I I would

think you like that. Id love to hear you speak French you just start wailing you just start going and you got you understood everything she was saying to him? He was nice too Daniel, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Look, Cheryl, you know what? I got news for ya. Were artists and this is just a fucking, you know, this is just a, you know, yeah this is just a job, you know, I mean our real focus is on our work and on, you know, each other and thats thats where its at of course, I mean who cares about programmers? Programmers are the stockbrokers of the 90s. You know? They are. I mean programmers, its stupid shit. Who gives a fuck? But. It is, yeah. Did you get a corporate vibe from that Knitting Factory thing? Yeah, embarrassing. Ill bet you get Ill bet you get the same food as you got up at that place. Yeah yeah. Well wait till we go to Greece and we try the food. Im Im really looking forward to that well well really get some good stuff. Yeah yeah. Definitely definitely. Claudia. Is that Claudia. No its Cindy, Cindy. I mean theres nothing to sort of feel bad about like oh, this guys from MIT. I mean, you know, hes a fucking programmer, you know? I mean the man is a computer programmer. But he seemed like a nice guy nonetheless I mean no and Andrea and him off for dinner. That was good. You know, until she starts to castrate him. Itll be great for the first week until she starts to say youre so young. Wow, its crowded in here tonight, isnt it? Sure, I guess so. Hello. How you doing tonight? Good. Were gonna stay, eat here tonight. Do you are you hungry Cheryl? OK, we have some mixed vegetable and whats this one? This is potato. And this is... whats this one? I love that I want do you do you want to order first? Do you want any bread. Do you want any bread? Well have one nan. Why dont we share one nan? Its nice its nice to have. Right here. And I will have, um... its OK its OK, well share this table with you. Please, please. No no no,

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please, please. Its OK. That was for Cheryl and for Kenny, OK, uh, actually some of these vegetables, oh Im sorry rice, lots of rice. I need rice. Same same same as her. Thats it. Some saag. And a little bit of the chicken, uh, yeah I love that, its so good. OK, and we got one nan coming? Great. Oh. OK, Im Ill be right back. Are you waiting? Youre next? OK, Ill come back. Someones in someones in the bathroom? You next? Is he waiting for the bathroom? OK, Ill come back. Thanks. Grazie. Whats your name? Alex. OK. Good, now I know your name too. Hi. Sure dont sure theyll be happy to take it. Alex, do you want me to pay? What? I wont. Mmmm, oh yeah, its so good. Boy, its a weird world out there, isnt it? WAC list, word of mouth. How did we find out about it. It comes like 3 times a day, yeah, its insane. World Wide Web Artists Coalition. Have some bread, boy. Want some? That Knitting Factory scene was just really corporate. I didnt like it. Did you? Oh, I didnt like that guy Alex that we met. The guy with the beard. He was an asshole. Did, you know, he never heard of Alfred Jarry. He never heard of Pere Ubu. He goes Ubu? Whats that? Yeah, you know, he never heard of any of that any connection with anything like that. Yeah. They did. Thank you. This food is so good. The crap they were serving up at that place for 20 bucks a plate. That was idiotic. The people in there, you know, it was a really stupid scene. I really gotta pee. OK. Ah, thats better. Is your chicken good? Tasty? No no no, its alright. You like this red chicken? Hey, you know, you cant say were not trying, right? I know as if as if being successful artists and writers isnt enough. Isnt it just amazing like all the work that we do to do our work and then all the work that we do to like try to do our work? Its insane, Cheryl, were working two jobs. Yeah, no, I mean work is OK, but, you know, its its just, you know, you do what you do. No

wonder why we are so fucking exhausted every night and every day. Well, I mean, its insane. I dont know how long well keep it up for. Its like a lot of artists, you know, well they kind of like paint like they get like Debra they get into their studios once a week or something like that, do think about it much. The fact is, were doing both things. See this is the cheese. This is paneer. This is what you eat in India all the fucking time. You had paneer? Youve had it, right? Paneer this what you eat. You like eat saag paneer like constantly. You constantly eating like on a plane you get saag paneer. Somebodys milk. Im tired. I just need some down time I think, you know, like quiet time. When I when did he say that Cheryl? Oh, thats so long ago. Halil? Liz Kotz was so nice last night. We have so much in common, its insane. Shes doing her dissertation. Its funny, when you scratch the surface of people, man, everybodys got something to say. I think everybodys nice. You got to get past the surface. I mean whoever would have thought Liz Kotz was anything, you know, other than what she appears to be? Hardcore man-hater. Shes so nice. No, I didnt get apprehensive. I mean afterwards I saw her I was like, oh theres Liz Kotz, you know, and then she came up to me afterwards I came up to her or whatever we saw each other Im like hi. Shes like very cold. Shes like hi, youre Cheryls friend. And Im like, yep. And she says I saw her show it looks really good. And then she looks at me and she says youve been doing what, like readings at the Ear, right? So like why couldnt she have said youre Kenny. You know, she obviously knew my name. So it was like it was gonna be too much to like give me that credit. You know, like, recog male recognition. But then she ends up like really loving everything that Marjorie was talking about. And Marjories talk there was nobody mentioned except men, white men that were dead. DWM, as Marjorie

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says. So, you know, and and yet, you know, shes studying Fluxus and experimental work from the 60s. Shed love to meet Dick Higgins. I mean, shes really nice. We have a great talk. We talked the whole subway ride down. I knew all these people she wanted to meet. You know, theyre all my friends, you know? Ulla Dydo. I saw Ulla there last night, by the way, she was there too. Well she saw it in the paper. She said she went today. She was gonna be there this afternoon to see your show. No, weve lost touch with Ulla. Shes been really sick and Im worried. She had like a bout of pneumonia or something. She was out for 10 days and for a woman her age to have a bout of pneumonia shes on antibiotics is not a good is really not a good thing. Im worried. Who knows? Shes got to be 75 at least. She didnt look so good either. She looked more wan than usual. But she was going to see your show and very excited. Youre such a neat eater. Look at the difference between our plates right now. Youre so like a pile here. You have like 4 grains of rice. You should see whats going on over here. I love this. Im a Goldsmith. So lets just walk up and get Bets, what do you think? Its a nice walk. I could use a little walk. Its a male culture. Just like in India. Theres a lot of women but. Cheryl I know were traveling a bit but really, we gotta get our asses to India for a little while. Even if we only go for a month, you know, we keep talking about it so much. Itd be really really fun to just go. It would be fun if we could do it together. Its like a a group at a a urinal the way theyre all standing up there. Theyre busy, huh? I had 2 good meals today. Chinese soup and this. You didnt have any other lunch? You heard New Age talk. What was he saying? Was he crazy? What was he to say? Yeah with lot of like weird gold picture frames. Was the other guy there as well? There was another guy. Do you want a tea? Im gonna have a tea. Well take it and walk with it, OK? Alex,

can I get one of those teas? You make me did you make me a tea last time? Its not the salty one, right? Its... it has like kind of milk in it but but theres no salt. Yeah, you guys made me a really nice... can I have one to go and then I wanna pay you also. Yeah. You want one? Yeah. Its weird, its a little different. You wanna try one? Yeah. You know what, well have well have 2 of those teas and well take them to go. I actually like that about them. They were the most interesting of all the places because of that boy, I mean, theyre different, huh? I thought but yeah, I had good talk with them too on some not not way you did but. I thought I thought I remember feeling like like I like that part of them that they were, they seemed to have a different attitude and it would have been nice to work through them. OK, what do I owe you for everything? No sugar. OK. 2 teas and a and a nan. 2 teas, a nan, and 2 platters. Your food is so good here. You make the best food ever. Its like home. Its like coming home. We we get better food here than we do at home. And everyday theres something new and different. I try something new. Last time we had the fish, remember? It was great. This this was the fish too, yeah. No sugar. No sugar. Just milk and well take it to go. It used to feel like a lot of money. Not so much anymore. You know, 100 bucks? Its sad. It goes so fast now. 20 dollars used to feel like a lot of money. Oh well here its fine this is this alright but remember, 100 dollars used to buy so much 20 dollars. Not anymore. Cheryl, look at how good and fresh all all this food is. Its so fresh. They do such a good job here. Im convinced that this food is better that anything you get on Sixth Street. It really is. Its much tastier. Thats right. I told him. So he says these these guys wanna quit their job when they see all these groovy people that go there. And what do they say? Its crazy. Hey, we saw that your friend, the woman who used to

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work here now works across the street. She tried to get us to come there. We said were not were not going anywhere but the Pakistani Tea House. No seriously, shes like come try this food. Its different, though. It doesnt look as good. It sounds like something Swami would say. Bad girl. Good boy. OK thanks, bye Alix, thank you for your help. See you again. See you again. Thank you. See you soon enough. Theyre the nicest, oh my god, what a great place. People I I have thought ethnic people that serve food Ive always said this, you know, are like the best people like theyre just in the service to please you they love to hear that their food is great. You know, theyre so appreciative when you tell them that their food is good theyre so appreciative, its its really uh, its really great. Its like Juan y Laura before they got nasty. Oh they like well how about the lovely people at the uh, at the uh, Castillo. They were so remember the women that worked there and that guy, the proprietor with all the how how sort of proud he was of his establishment. I even liked the people at the Hung Hing, you know, its just like. Particularly with ethnic restaurants I, you know, I find, you know, people in fancier restaurants are just more professional and weird. Yeah I, well, they I mean they care but its different. What? With these guys its not about money its about love the ethnic restaurants I mean they really are happy so happy when you, you know, theyre just in it for appreciation theyre feeding people. The business is to feed people like that place we went into with the belly dancer their business their business, yeah yeah I mean they may do good food Im not gonna say theyre not and theres somebody who cares but its a very different reason for doing it. Yeah, I mean these guys are in, you know, giving great food for like next to nothing just to keep the community alive, you know? Theyre not making any money there. Cause, you

know, theyre certainly not doing any volume so as to make money. Church Street is sort of dead though, you know, like down here, what is there here, you know, a little bit, you know, its like all these its just corporate and weird. If if you just want to head home Ill pick up Bets, you know, I could do that too. Alright. Whatever. As you wish. You know, really, I mean if you just want up at Grand turn off and go home thats cool. Huh? Oh, you know what well do on the way to, uh, your studio tomorrow well stop at my office and well pick up my book. I dont really feel like dragging that thing, uh, around with me tonight, you know? Its too heavy. Oh, look at The Knitting Factory, its over. That was kind of an amazing thing to see all those people, wasnt it? Im beat. The tea is really good. Its like what you get in all the time. The tea in India is really exquisite. These guys brewing it on the street and they put a lot of sugar in it. You just think it was the best stuff you ever had. You think it would be? It is. It is. Oh, its so good with sugar in it. Is that right? Yeah, oh it is. Its heavenly with sugar in it. I actually put sugar in my coffee in my tea the other night before I went out to FMU I was eating a meal and I had this chai and, I dont know, it was a rough day I had a long night ahead of me, Im like, I really want this tea to be sweet. So I dumped 3 sugars into it. Dont tell anyone. Is what goes on in here? Whats burlesque? Strippers? Why dont the just call it strippers like this why dont the just be honest about it like this like this place? Yeah, look at that. All these ancient paintings and stuff. Its a rough business. Ah, look at this person how shes dressed coming at us, this woman. That was Veronica Webb? Really? You sure? She looks like shes going to dance at the Baby Doll. Think Veronicas dancing tonight at the Baby Doll? Remember we used to come here when it was first when we first came to New York and it was... Industrial Chili? Thats a

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noisy group. Everybodys out tonight. I havent been in there in a long time. Oh my God! What is that doing here?! That is amazing! Jesus Christ! He gets around. He gets around. I have no idea he gets around. Hes in my book. Lots of these theyre in my book. Thats interesting. I thought he never left Avenue A. Cool, look at that hat. Reminds me of your work. Is it a hat? Remember the Keith Boadwee the time we covered the car? Oh look at that. Somebody drew their matte knife. Sugar. Its sitting right on the table. Go in. Just ask them. Cmon. No, you just put it... just ask them. We love your food. We come here. We used to come to your place on Canal Street also. I havent been there in a long time. That place was pretty good I remember. I remember liking it thinking we used to go all the time on Canal. We should try it one time again. I remember the chicken and rice was just excellent there. Funny I dont go there. It caught on real heavy with the Gavin Brown crowd and I was always thought I was thinking that it was just gonna be too dopey and trendy. We kind of stayed away from it. She must be majorly insecure to pull that shit all with everyone. Uh, she was just caressing her and Claudia she was a little more hands off. Yeah, shes a trip. Shes really insecure. What? Isnt it interesting how nothings ever really come on come on this street. It seems like it would be perfect for galleries and what have you. Its gonna be on Mercer, thought. I mean look at these places I mean theyre these I mean its weird that nothings really come into these joints yet, nothing commercial. Yeah. Do you think Andreas a trip? I like I like how she throws herself into things. No, I like her I really do, actually I think shes like like really one of our good friends and and becoming more so, you know? Shes, uh, shes becoming like our Alix in a weird way, you know. When Alix and us were tighter. I just I I really do like her and I I I

can cut through the flattery stuff I mean, shes bright, shes, uh, ambitious, shes interested, shes lively, you know? I I I like her. I really do like her believe me, I dont have much tolerance for people, as you well know, and shes somebody who I can tolerate, you know, sort of over and over again. I like how enthusiastic she is, say with the cyber thing, you know? I think its... Im no look... Oh, god, Charney Paper. Thats where I used to buy boxes for Allan. Sorry to see that theyre going out. One of the last few industrial people in this neighborhood. They were really nice there. God, I dealt with them for years. Huh, thats where Eileens moving, huh? I thought that was really funny, you know, what Marjorie and Bruce said when they walked into into Suzanne McClellands show? They they they were both like we feel like its, you know, 1940 or 1945, you know, or 1950 in New York. We feel its like Arshile Gorky in here. Why are we looking at these paintings? They dismissed them immediately cause they just look so old fashioned. I was like look you guys theres language in here. They couldnt couldnt be less interested. I I thought it was fresh. I couldnt agree with them more. You know? And I like the fact that they wouldnt even entertain it because it was, you know, old. They they cut right to the bone, I think. The art world is is willing to be blinded, as you saw last night, my god! With that conservatism, is it any wonder Suzanne McClelland is a success? Yeah, Benjamin was OK, but I was wondering why Benjamin didnt get up and piss on people. See? He was great. I liked his line but, you know, you didnt even know he was there and I thought thats a really really bad sign. Mmmm, look at this! All this old film and scripts. Wow! Wow this is pretty wild. Look at this. Air condition to post area. Voiceover breakdown. Oh, this is this is wonderful, huh? God, people, look at great installation. People have had a whole lot of fun

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with this. Videotape, audio tape, you... Jesus Christ! Heres a heres a a good old fashioned reel to reel tape. Amazing. Look at this, huh? Wow! Look at all this is non digital technology. Pretty amazing, isnt it? Everybodys just tossing it. This is all from Broadcast Arts. Those are the people that made the Pee Wee Herman Show. Right? This looks like a storage space for Broadcast Arts. Look at this Cheryl. Look at this professional videotape. You know what this thing must have cost? This is amazing, huh? You couldnt use this, could you, huh? Look at the way this thing is constructed. Its really beautiful. What year is this? Look at these big 10 inch diskettes, which are old computer things. I love how the mess that everybodys made here. Look at this, Cheryl. More. Just more and more and more. Whew! Its its telling isnt it? When its its all just put into onto memory now. Pretty telling, isnt it? Its really a different time. Its kind of remarkable, isnt it? Its just a different time. Yeah yeah but I bet a lot of that stuff is being tossed because lots of its been transferred to computer. Yeah yeah. Yeah, it looked like a lot, yeah, maybe youre right, maybe Im being too romantic. I wish, you know, oh the days, oh those old analog days. I still love my old LPs. Hey I do too Mary, you know? Have you ever been in here? You know thats a restaurant? Doesnt it look closed? Its been there forever. There were girls with high heels, there were girls with tight pants. Look at this bouncer all fancied up. It looks like something out of a Daumier, you know? He was dealing with the same exact issues like the like the sponge, the sponge crashing a wedding. Thats a Steve Kaplan comment. What is he famous for? Crashing our wedding. Yeah, its a depressing building. Remember we saw that kids art show in here? He sent that really mean letter to us? I know your work. I know all about you. Look at this. Something else is happening on the cor-

ner. Oh boy, never a dull moment on this fucking area, huh? It never stops. Lets watch. Did I tell you, Cheryl, they repositioned our old friend in this building? The security guy from where the Art and Industry is now? You know that guy that sort of sweet but really annoying guard? Hes here now! I see him every day! And he says man, Im gonna be here for a long time. This project will not be done for several years. So he says, its good to see ya! Ill see ya every day! Ive seen the guy, like, every single day. This is where, like, the J. Crew is opening. Yeah. But he said no he said no time soon. He was like, just when wed thought wed seen the last of that guy he he shows up again! He says its just slow and theyre building it from the ground up. I said, whens this all gonna be done? He said oh, two or 3 years. He said theyll have it done by like 98, but he said dont count on it. He said, Ill be here for a long, long time. And hes always hanging out right in this doorway. Im gonna start taking another route to work. Yeah. This shyness not gonna be much longer here. You know they put something in here. Oh, its good tea, isnt it? Thats as satisfying as a cup of coffee. Chai. Do you hear Swami how he says acha? Yeah, Bobbie says its like us saying like, you know or you know? You hear it. Acha acha acha. So I wrote Swami Bruce today. I wrote him email. But I wrote him I said I really didnt introduce myself I said hey you guys, really nice site, good content, but youve got to do something about the size of your images. Thats why there were, like, 3 images in on that thing? It was the most enormous file, it was something like 800k to load that article and the text came in immediately and I must have waited 20 minutes just to get just the few pictures we got. He doesnt understand about about reducing the size of his images. I just wrote him a note saying, you guys youre not gonna keep people around here very long its just. Somebody obvi-

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ously never told him. So, I mean, I didnt introduce myself. I was just like being a visitor through the site. I mean the site looks good but I dont want to go there because its just insanely big images. Well, somebodys savvy. They put up a site. You know, its not like hes Swami. Its not like hes our swami. Maybe he didnt do it, but whoever did it. Theres too many fashion freaks in this place. Hes so happy to speak to you, isnt he? Whats the latest? Lets move past Checkpoint Charlie quickly Cheryl. You guys Rover were down in two seconds, were just getting Rover. Cheryl, cmon. Cheryl, cmon. Were just going up to get the dog, lets go. Shes so into the rules. All I want to do is I want to get Rover. You have her. Rovers signed in. When did these guys become so big on signing in? Its a pain in the ass. You never make anybody sign in. Yeah. Back in the day, man, when you were up there. You come and you go they know me too. No, these guys are alright but its the younger guys that dont know everybody. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. Alright, thats a better way to look at it. I know everybody around here. Im the man. Oh man, that guy. Can you imagine being like 45 years old and sweeping up and night? Isnt that... Whew! So whats up with Amie? Hold on, let me just pick this message up, Ill bet its Jon Gams. Then hold on, I wanna hear this. OK, so go on. Theres the star of the building. We follow behind the queen. Alright, you guys. Take care. See you around. Well, listen, yes its yeah weve talked to her but she doesnt really not so interested in listening. And also, Vegas, hey, its Memorial Day Weekend schools out basically in a month, you know, its a wa, Junes a wash in school. So, and then shes got the summer which is gonna be probably be shaping up to be a real rough summer for both your folks and her. Go down here. Yeah, weve always thought that if she went to a theater school, singing camp. Why dont your folks

just make her go? Why dont your folks send her away for the summer, you know, to one of these programs, an arts program and whether she likes it or not, shes gonna go. Why dont they do something like that. Working at the Holden Spa sounds like its shaping up to be a summer of real trouble. Its gonna be lots of hanging out and lotsa, you know, pissed off, you know, its a stupid job that goes nowhere. Why dont they ship her off somewhere. Look at these, man, these are just freshly cast. Its beautiful. Yeah, theyre working on the sidewalk at the Guggenheim. You dont see these they are old old things, really freshly cast. Theyre beautiful, arent they? Jeez. Look at that. Amazing. Yeah, theyre putting them in here. Havent they been through before with kids? Why do you think shes so rebellious? You think it has to do with, uh, uh, her growing up around us, or or MTV? Oh look at look at that. Seems like weve hit a new level of seriousness. But didnt she do that with you or you guys were like the biggest nerds of the school. I mean, even Kathy, Kathy who tripped on her on her on her graduation night, I mean, whats whats the difference here? Now shes on her summer going into the 11th grade? Im trying to think between tenth and eleventh. Yeah, you know, shes not shes not like in like 8th or 9th grade anymore. Right, its its youre starting to this year should be the year, you know, 10th grade is like when you really, you know, at least for me, it was like a year of like it was the be I saw the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of, uh, in terms of I had been through a real long dark period like Amie is in, acting out, being an asshole and then finally in the 9th grade going into 10th grade I met kids that were like me. I started to become really, you know, like who I am today. It was intellectual, you know, it was real intellectual, meeting smart kids with bigger ideas, you know, it was the

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blossoming of, you know, really exactly what I am today. Yeah. Yeah. Theres got to be kids in the school that are somewhat alternative and somewhat creative, you know? Let me tell you another thing. Taking Amie to Las Vegas is not gonna do her intellect any good either and it it for us, we can laugh about it, its ironical, its fun, we can distance it but for Amie, it makes me think that good values are not really being stressed, you know, if her folks are taking her for the family vacation to a place like Las Vegas, which reinforces every bad value in this culture, you know, and I know I may be making a big deal out a little thing but it seems to me that its theyre not, you know, your father is stressing leisure in his life, you know, it doesnt seem to me to be a particularly healthy, sort of, intellectually encouraging trip for Amie at this time in her life. Right no, and and it must be that must be indicative of a different kind of attitude that, you know, is is being put to her when your father, all he cares about is golf and your mo... and your mother is is, uh, living in the Las Vegas of her mind, a fantasy world. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like its a problem as much as anything like a just a problem of leisure, you know, you know? Its seems to be a pr like a real American problem of entertainment and leisure. So Im gonna call in and see if I have an appointment tomorrow with, uh, Ann Reiss. Cheryl, look at this. It happens every day. This, huh? Do you think that its worth 50 bucks a month for me to or well I could probably get it for less, for me to open up an account with Crocker to register UbuWeb as a domain name? So I would well I would so it would just be www UbuWeb UbuWeb dot com and it could, you know, load things up, you know, its, you know, secure all that stuff. Oh, uh, its either Crocker or I could do Jon Tower but I feel like I like Crocker better. Yeah, it could. I could put up a more professional front with it. I mean,

maybe if I could I could trade Jon by offering to put more clients on his server, Ive already put 2 on his server, maybe he could just give me a space there for free. Yeah, a domain. I probably should, you know, to make everything look more professional Im just looking at these guys sites here that we met. Yeah. Yeah, no, theyre very very serious, uh. Let me just poke around then Ill give it to you. OK here, OK here, Im gonna give you this. This is that this is that guy that we met at the end with the hat and the whole thing. This is his page. So the developers stuff. I dont know. Its not there it aint art, right? They did the Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art site Metropolitan Museum of Art site. I mean they really have these really high powered clients. Take a look at the Metropolitan. What? Whats happening? Hows it look? What did you do? What did you do? Whats whats its all one? Its all one, honey? How does that page look? Does it look good? It all what? Im fixing it. Its all doubled up. Do you hate the web sometimes? Yeah. Java Java uh uh uh. Java Java uh uh uh. Look at this. I love this girl. You are so fresh. I love you. You are so you are so fresh, Cheryl. How is this? Is this something we could have how is the background kind of look like the 2 women in college? Does it look like the community college we did? So you dont think this is any hot stuff. What is it? So, whats the big deal here? Is it fun? Im gonna pass this side. Cheryl, you youre typings gotten much better. Are you still looking at the keys? Its pretty fucking ugly. Yeah yeah. Mashed together. Let me see whats happening here. They couldnt have put a little table in? Look at that, yeah. They couldnt have put a little table in they just. Yeah, its cheap, yeah. Well, actually Ill tell Ill tell you what that means and its still wrong. If the browser was a default screen which should be somewhere around here. Lets see what it looks like. No, it looks like shit? Why dont

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you use a different typeface? You tell me whats not a better looking site? This one may have more cgi and sophistication but in terms of design I think I think we beat em by a mile, dont we? I mean you dont see images this striking, this big on the web, you know, thats a striking image, isnt it? Yeah, its like really really quick. Yeah, its already pretty much in. 100%. And this, which is really a much larger image. Have you seen the reviews section that I made? You did with the, anyway, this is a much larger... its 43k... but its really nothing compared to... Itll fly in pretty pretty quick. Did you see this? Isnt that so much nicer? OK, thats aesthetic, you know? A little hard to read, isnt it? I think it reads better, I think Ive got to change it. It reads better on my screen. Look at that thats... Oh, she just wants to be near Mom and Dad. Isnt that nice, Cheryl? Isnt that beautiful? I dont know. No, you got it? Ill make it a little darker, Im glad I saw it on your screen. The backgrounds pretty though, the canvas? Well, listen, theyre techies. They dont have much visual sense. Thats true. Thats where we already duh shine. Hey Cheryl, in the end, right? thats how well distinguish ourselves in the web stuff by consistently making amazing looking site, you know? Its so ugly. Ill tell you ev even da webs interface is I dont think da webs a da webs a confusing site. Well, I mean, its just theyre so techie it you cant read anything, its hard to read. You know, its just not its too confusing. I mean they mean well but yeah, theyre a little too wound up. I like The Thing. I think of all the art things The Thing I mean theyre just clear and simple one page and what really matters on The Thing is the content, you know, not the fancy cgi and the things flipping around and doing stupid tricks. You know? I mean it works, you know? I mean, you know, it works. It functions. It loads really quickly. I like going there, its a comfortable environment.

They only give you 10 things to look at, thank god. I mean most of these sites are so big you cant even find your way around. You never see a fraction of the goddamned place. The Thing they give you 10 things, you know, and you get to see them all. Listen, Marjorie Perloff was enough. Hey, why dont we sleep with the white blanket tonight, huh? I think this things gonna be too hot. Wanna sleep with this one? Im just laughing at the image of you the image of you getting your ear bent by the New Age guy for 2 hours today. Oh my god, if you dont get some work out of this... did it did it did that exhaust you? You know how many people would love to get 3 hours of your undivided attention? Youre so terrific. Im gonna leave you alone cause I love you. We love each other, yeah. This is nice, though, I gave you an extra blanket in case you get cold. Is that OK? What? OK, so I have nothing planned tomorrow. What time do you have to meet my mother? Yeah. So, we lets wake up early and get to your studio. OK? OK, Im gonna read for a little bit. Oh, you look so peaceful. Youre just relaxing, arent you? Look at the paws. You look so pretty. Beautiful skin. She is beautiful, Im telling you. She is beautiful. Radiant glow. You know, Ive got to say one last thing. Maybe Im gonna change my mind about sex in the morning. You know it didnt take much for me to lay back here, I dont know if I could actually be the, uh, the other the one in the morning. The instigator cause Im too sleepy but it does put you in a really good mood. I woke up feeling very happy this morning. Suck some of that tension right out of ya, huh? I like that. Maybe Im going to reconsider the next phase of our relationship. Listen listen P.S. we have to start thinking about what were gonna do for our anniversary dinner this year, you know, were making all the other plans and we havent even talked about, you know, the our big A. 13. 89 did we get married, yeah? 9? 8, its 8,

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its 1996. 7. Good night, darling. You have your little clock set? Why dont you do that? Tell you what, maybe Ill see you for a night visit, OK? Hows that sound? Hows that sound? Good. Good night.

Hi. Did we get up too late? Wanna do it tomorrow. Oh shit, youre right. Alright. OK well, then lets just do this. Lets like grab food on the way, just blast out of here immediately no coffee. Well just well just get going, OK? So all I wanna do is shower and then... OK? How does that sound to you? Good. Hi. Yeah, theres no food. Anyway, were going and shes not gonna eat it anyway. She wants to go out. Cheryl, sweets, Im not gonna join you for lunch because Im gonna be doing lunch with dinner with her on Monday night and you you got the day off. OK, Im ready. How about you? Do you have that guys card from the kids world or whatever? Theres no URL on this though. I guess its mama media dot com. Alright, Ill try to find him. I got that one. Its so nice out. Bets stay. Good girl. She listens so well, doesnt she? When she wants to? Cheryl Ill wait out here. You had no problem? So were gonna have to get some coffee somewhere. Ugh, Im so out of it. Cheryl, what what are we gonna by the time we get to your studio and set up, were gonna have about 45 minutes to film. OK. I mean I can come again too. Right. Oh shit! Hold on! Bets! Babette! Go! We can just get something, you know, at, uh, at our coffee at the deli downstairs. I gotta go run across the street to Liquidators to get some more tapes too. Im just about out of tapes. OK? No. Uh, not really. Uh, you know, it feels really cramped for time, doesnt it? I have. I think we should just say no, I dont know. Corporate assholes in rented cars. Oh, hes in a good mood today. Ill tell you what, Cheryl. Why dont you immediately right now just blast to your studio and go set up. Ill go get, you know, why... You can stop at Connecticut Muffin you get your coffee, you get your muffin, Ill get mine and

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Ill see you at the studio, OK? Yeah yeah. Yeah, lets lets just do that. Yeah, its easier. Are you gonna wear your new shoes to my mothers tomorrow? Oh, I had a hunch that you might. You look cute. I like your outfit. You look very spring like. I have to get some new clothes. I guess Ill buy a pack of new t-shirts. Here here you go. See you momentarily, alright? Ill be right over. How you doin? Do you guys have ninety minute microcassettes? Yeah, what else do you have? 4 dollars apiece, huh? Uh, no a few, a few, uh... OK, then, why dont I just take the three 60s from you? It doesnt matter. Whatever. Whatever, uh, give me the TDK, yeah, TDKs fine. Right right. OK, then this is fine then. OK thanks. Shes home. Hi Pam. Hey Chris, how you doin? I just want 7 5 3 put on this? Why? Barry Barry told me told me he liked it. But the reason being. Let me hear. I wanna hear. But wait a minute, the thing I really would need I think is Open Transport 1 1. No we had 1 0 8 on there and I cant run things and... Are you guys like having major problems with, uh, 7 5 3? Well what do you like I can tell you off the bat. OK, but youre going out or someone else will. OK. I only like you, Chris, you know. Yeah. Uh, Ken Goldsmith. Should I, um, give you a call? Im having a timing problem with the startup its not starting up from like from this key. No, I have to push this button 3 times in in order to get it to go. Have them fix it. Ive lived with it but Id like to get that corrected while Im here. Otherwise, you know, the machines been run running really really beautifully, you know, its all its all worked out. I hope were not from this key its only I have to push this button 3 times still. You guys have this new phone system. Whats your direct phone so I can call right in. Well whats the whats the direct extension to get it to get right in here? Pam, whats your...? Im trying to call you guys Im getting some kind of weird voice mail. Whats your regular

number so I can hit you direct? 9800 but I get this big voice mail nightmare. I know how do I? Hit what? And someone here will pick up? Alright. OK. OK. OK, so Chris when should I call you on this? Later on today about noon or so? Could I at least know whats going on about noon? OK. Alright. Thanks. Yeah, can I have one of these, uh, blueberry sugarless muffins, a blue one of those blueberry sugarless muffins? Oh, you got it. And a regular coffee. Ill take it just just like that. OK. Thanks. How ya doin? You all ready? OK, hold on a sec. OK. Why dont you shut your door up? Babette! Hi! Babette! Hey Babette! Babette! Yes, hi baby! Hi Babette. Hi baby yes yes yes. Hi Babette. Hi Babette. Hi Babette. What do what will be better for you to paint. Should I wear my shirt or just a t-shirt? Whats better for you? OK. Alright. Let me hide. Let me hide the mic then. What what section do you want me to read from there once was a man from? No no seriously, you tell me. Do you want longer things or...? Longer or shorter. Do you want there once was do you want to start with that? Who? So do we want do we want there once was a man who and then and then who dah dah dah dah like I did last time who da da da daddle da da da? OK, well start with that? Is that what you want? Bets who is it? Go get em! Go get em! Go get em! Go get em! Who is it? Whos there? How do I look? Clean? My hair look OK? Good. Do you want me start? Do you mind this pen? Uh, probably no more than this. OK. Should I look at the camera or should I look at the book? Alright, can you bring me some water? Cause all that talking is really and Im gonna have to change my tape too, do you mind? Yeah, I got a good 10 minutes or more on this. I got probably 20 minutes. OK? So its like interesting cause were taping the taping, you know, this is becoming a hall of mirrors. I can put it I can put it down on the floor. Good girl. Oh, I should have my

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sleeves down. No no no. Its OK, I should have them down, its easier. Alright so Im gonna start with with the words leading into there once was and Ill finish that chapter and then well take a break at the end of that chapter. About, you know, if not Ill just go on. There once was a girl from Alaska. There once was a tart named Belinda. There used to be a Soave Bolla. There was a Chaplain of Exeter. There was a cute quirp from Calcutta. There was a fat lady of China. There was a fat man from La Jolla. There was a fierce soldier from Parma. There was a fine artist named Thayer. There was a fine fellow named Tupper. There was a fresh fellow from Parma. There was a hot girl from Sahara. There was a monk from Siberia. There was a young charmer named Sheba. There was a young curate of Minster. There was a young dancer Priscilla. There was a young fellow named Brewster. There was a young fellow named Fisher. There was a young fellow named Fletcher. There was a young fellow named Meyer. There was a young fellow named Peter. There was a young fellow named Skinner. There was a young fellow named Taylor. There was a young fellow named Tucker. There was a young fellow of Burma. There was a young fellow -- a banker. There was a young female named Whyare. There was a young German named Ringer. There was a young girl from Decatur. There was a young girl from Medina. There was a young girl from Sofia. There was a young girl from Topeka. There was a young girl from Vistula. There was a young girl in Dakota. There was a young girl named Regina. There was a young girl of Gibraltar. There was a young girl of Ohia. There was a young Jewess named Hannah. There was a young joker named Tarrerr. There was a young lady from China. There was a young lady named Banker. There was a young lady named Bigger. There was a young lady named Hopper. There was a young

lady named Laura. There was a young lady named Nora. There was a young lady named Schneider. There was a young lady named Sheba. There was a young lady named Shriver. There was a young lady named Wilma. There was a young lady of Bicester. There was a young lady of Dexter. There was a young lady of Dover. There was a young lady of Gaza. There was a young lady of Glouster. There was a young lady of Joppa. There was a young lady of Leister. There was a young lady of Niger. There was a young lady of Worcester. There was a young lassie named Heather. There was a young laundress of Lamas. There was a young man from Florida. There was a young man from Geneva. There was a young man from Lacona. There was a young man from Salinas. There was a young man named Namiter. There was a young man of Calcutta. There was a young man of Cashmira. There was a young man of La Hora. There was a young man of Oporta. There was a young man up in Utah. There was a young man who preferred her. There was a young monk of Silesia. There was a young party of Bicester. There was a young Sapphic named Anna. There was a young virgin of Dover. There was a young woman of Asia. There was a young woman of Chester. There was an eccentric from Mecca. There was an old Bey of Calcutta. There was an old biddy named Hilda. There was an old Count of Swoboda. There was an old fellow named Skinner. There was an old lady God damn her. There was an old maid from Bermuda. There was an old maid of Genoa. There was an old maid of Vancouver. There was an old man from Decatur. There was an old man from near Boulder. There was an old man of Calcutta. There was an old man of Ramnugger. There was an old pensioner of Ware. There was an old person of Cromer. There was an old sarge of Dorchester. There was an old spinster of Tyre. There was an old whore of Albama. There was an old

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whore of Tijuana. There was an old whore of Warsawa. Bets. Oh, its... Is the door closed, honey? Does she bark every time someone comes to the door, honey? Thats good, though in the end. I mean its inconvenient now but you should be glad she does. Bets! Go on, get in your bed. Get in your bed. Shes a good girl. Sit. You sit. Down. Down. Good girl. You stay. OK, lets go. What time do you have to meet my mother? You meeting her at the gallery. Ugh. OK, so, yeah yeah Ill do much shorter chapters. Hows my reading is it OK? Does it does it sound good? Am I reading well? Any suggestions? Yeah. Any suggestions or just like the way it goes. OK, so well just do chapters. Why dont I just pick any chapter, you know? And and you know when theyre just 2 pages. They they should take about it should take about 5 minutes or something or. OK so you Ill Ill how about a 2 and a half page chapter or a little bit longer? Oh I got two I got 2. Lets see, I can get a little bit longer. OK, lets just do one. What? Bets stay. Whats whats hanging from her, Cheryl, whats hanging from the dogs mouth? Theres something really weird can you look at her mouth? Stay Bets. What is that? OK, so I got two and a half pages. You ready? It is this will not take 10 minutes to read. I mean its gonna take Ill say its gonna take 7 minutes. Yeah. Who always slept on his left knacker. Who bellowed My old cunt is on fire! Who built a new kind of pagoda. Who called in a water-diviner. Who came a society cropper. Who can turn the moon with her finger. Who captured a man by maneuver. Who cared not for God nor his Saviour. Who could never reach up to the bar. Who created suicide dramas. Who cut off all her pubical hair. Who daily got shorter and shorter. Who destroyed a record from Decca. Who did all her father had taught her. Who died for ten seconds of pleasure. Who dreamt that a rooster seduced her. Who dreamt that

her lover was in her. Who favored herself with vanilla. Who fell deep in love with a viper. Who fished for fresh fish in a fissure. Who forever played the piana. Who found he could easily cure her. Who from sex grew weaker and weaker. Who fucked like a fiend for his honor. Who greased up his asshole with butter. Who had an odd kind of aphasia. Who invented a fur ballclasper. Who invented amorous dramas. Who jerked himself off in the gutter. Who journeyed to and died in Denver. Who laughed as he ran down the gutter. Who liked a wifes friend so he grabbed her. Who lit cigaretters in boxcars. Who looked for a girl to deflower. Who lovingly fondled his charmer. Who mistook her mouth for a pizza. Who never could do what he useta. Who never let any get past her. Who never took no for an answer. Who once went to work as a banker. Who painted his ass like a dahlia. Who performed abortions with tweezers. Who playfully pickled his mama. Who plugged up her cunt with a boa. Who pondered great God as his Maker. Who prospected some in North China. Who rode on the back of a barber. Who rushed at his mother to fuck her. Who said I should now like to shag Ma. Who said as he wallowed in guana. Who said as she squeezed on the trigger. Who said she would do it mañana. Who said that no man could surprise her. Who said to her spouse What a pigua! Who said to his surgeon Gol-dernya. Who said to his wife as he goosed her. Who said to the man who undressed her. Who sang out their windows in despair. Who saw the world but in two colors. Who screamed as the noose was tied tighter. Who screamed when he started to hit her. Who seduced a tired old sailor. Who slept while her ship lay at anchor. Who slept with her elders before her. Who slobbered and spit out his dinner. Who smiled as she rode on a tiger. Who spoke with a terrible stutter. Who started me dying of laughter. Who stood on

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one leg to read Homer. Who stressed Its not that I would have cared. Who stuffed her friends cunt with banana. Who succumbed to her lovers desire. Who sweated more in the warm weather. Who sweetened the deal with brown sugar. Who swore that he loved his old lovers. Who tested Kaposis Sarcoma. Who thought he was Julius Caesar. Who thought he would diddle an old mare. Who thought of a program to better. Who threw potatoes at lecturers. Who toasted his balls in a brazier. Who took a young lady to dinner. Who took a young lady to suffer. Who took out a girl just to ride her. Who touched the young girls with a finger. Who tried to seduce a fair Quaker. Who tried to write Sun on a shutter. Who wanted to look like Mick Jagger. Who was courted by gallants galore. Who was fond of churning lovebutta. Who was fucking a girl on the stair. Who was heard in his beard to mutter. Who was really a Cubist for fair. Who went for a walk with a builder. Who went to the ball as Godiva. Who wore fifty-six beads nothing more. Who wouldnt know shit from shinola. Whose feelings were turning to butter. Whose husband exceedingly vexed her. Whose life didnt go as it shoulda. Whose life grew wearier and weaker. Whose life had grown shorter and shorter. Whose loins were a mess of ganglia. Whose mind always stayed in the gutter. Whose mother was better than father. Whose mother-in-law had pneumonia. Whose motor had lost its prime mover. Whose parts became denser and denser. Whose passion was such that it drove her. Whose penis rose higher and higher. Whose pet was a darling amoeba. Whose petunia was covered with hair. Whose step-ins were constructed of fur. Whose twitcher was made out of leather. Whose voice it rose higher and higher. Whose whole mind was fixed on Christs mother. I mean I just read like like 10 pages or something. Uh huh. Why dont we do do one thats in the I can also do

one thats like really I can do like the first chapter the the sounds which will take about 7 minutes. Well, why not get why not get a. I have a long one here. I have like one thats about 5 pages thats. OK, then Id like to do the first one too just for different sounds, OK? I like the idea of doing this according to chapter. I I think thats a really cool idea. OK, wait this one I mean the other one was so short I had to do it right. Yeah, but around once it started to get light out I had a really good sleep but I didnt sleep well at all last night. Uh, I just got up to pee. OK, lets go. Oh she understands English. Bets, down. Down. Down. Ah sa. Bets down. Good girl. You stay, honey. Shes so good. Shes such a good girl. OK. I love this dog. Oh, I have to do one or the other. Can I change in the middle? No it cause youre gonna paint me. No Ill Ill keep my feet. No, Ill just stay like this. Sure. Sure. Sure. I mean, yeah. Cezannes Orgasm: beneath the brushstrokes the orgasms became peaches and pears, crimson and clover over and over crimson and clover over and over, dead people are the biggest victims of all -- and they cant defend themselves either, develop a secret neurotoxin that makes females pregnant with dinosaurs, devotion candles orange corner shrine cows spice in piles adorned with swastikas, Did anyone notice that T3 has 4 members? I guess it doesnt matter, discretion is the better part of valor but stupidity goes everywhere, Do not call my views strange. Do not dismiss me as an anarchist. I am neither, Do you want to cleanse all Karma and tap into infinite creative power?, Does this mean youll be on Americas Most Wanted Al? asks wife Peggy Wanker, Either it works or it doesnt as I seem to recall Spicer saying somewhere, elephants never forget but you seldom see a kangaroo with a zipper, eliminate any disorder or discomfort including insomnia, even in ancient times mankind admired the vibrant variety of tex-

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ture, Ever take off your shoes and walk barefoot through the grass on the beach near the water?, every instance of text is separated by an empty space of white paper, everything is in bondage to the fetters of time and the fetters of desire, everytime that I look in the mirror all these lines on my face getting clearer, Father Devines Riviera or signed on for more causes than he had time for, first with delight then with diminishing pleasure and finally with tired despair, for comfort of mind writers are better off staying away from one another, For twenty years Ive seen our sixties ideals betrayed. I felt lost and uncentered, fortunately its a race to see whichll crap out first: his heart or his career, 4:40 a.m. reading Details on a rainy sleepless night in India, Friedrich Nietzsche described it as a colossal 4-towered Nibelung structure, geeks havent had this much excitement since Woody Allen woke up late in Sleeper, How was that one? Does it sound interesting to you? Is it can you follow it or... its easy to follow or you kind of fade in and out different things catch your ear? Hows my reading? Alright? No Cheryl, its not. Its 12:00. Its twelve on the nose. You want me to do the first chapter? Sure. You like that? OK. OK, the first chapter is just. The first chapter is, uh, 2 pages but it takes a little while to read. Well, I dont know its about 7, 7 minutes or so. Listen I can always come back and do more. OK. You ready? A, a, aar, aas, aer, agh, ah, air, r, are, arh, arre, arrgh, ars, aude, aw, awe, Ayr, Ba, ba, baa, baaaahh, baar, bah, bar, bard, bare, barge, barre, Bayer, beer, bere, beurre, bier, bla, blah, Blair, blare, blear, bleh, blur, boar, board, Boer, boor, bore, bored, Boz, bra, bras, Brer, brrrr, bur, burr, C.O.R.E., ca, cah, car, card, care, caw, cha, chaar, chair, char, chard, chaw, cheer, cheere, Cheers, Cher, chiere, choir, chord, chore, Claire, claw, clear, cleere, coeur, Coors, cord, core, corps, course, craw, crore, cur, curr, curs, czar,

dor, da, dr, dare, daw, dawed, dear, deer, derre, dire, diur, door, dor, dore, dour, draw, drawe, drear, droor, duh, dure, dyere, eer, ear, eere, eh, Eh?, eir, er, Er, er, ere, err, eyr, fa, f, fair, faire, far, fas, faugh, fawe, fayre, fear, fer, fere, ferre, fier, fiord, fir, flair, flaw, fleer, floor, flour, floure, foiah, for, fr, force, Ford, ford, fore, fors, four, IV, foure, fra, frere, frore, fur, fyr, ga, ga, gah, gair, gar, gaw, gear, geere, giour, gnar, gnaw, goore, gore, gourd, grah, grarh, gras, graw, grrrr, Grrrrr!!, guard, gyre, ha, haah, hah, Hair, hair, hr, hard, hare, harr, harre, haw, hawe, hear, heer, heere, heir, her, here, herr, hir, hire, hoar, hoard, horde, hors, hour, houre, huh, Huh?, hurr, hwor, ia, ier, ire, ja, jaar, Jah, jar, jaw, Jaws, jeer, ka, kar, ker, kir, kna, knar, knarre, knur, Kurd, la, La!, lair, lard, lare, laud, law, lawe, lawed, Lear, leer, leh, lere, lier, Loire, loore, lor, Lord, lord, lore, lough, lourde, Ma, ma, mar, mare, Mars, Maude, maw, mawe, mere, mha, mire, mirre, moi, Moor, moor, moore, more, mors, moure, mwa, myre, myrrh, na, nah, nahhh, Nair, nar, nard, naw, neer, near, nerd, nha, noir, nor, nur, nya, nyeh, oer, oar, oor, oore, or, ore, our, oure, Pa, pa, paar, paas, pah, pair, paire, par, pard, pare, paw, pear, peer, per, perr, perre, pers, pier, poire, por, pore, pour, poure, prayer, preyere, pshaw, pur, purr, qua, quaa, quaer, Quah, quaire, quar, queer, quire, R, r, Ra, raa, rare, raw, rawe, rear, rer, rere, rh, roar, ruhr, sa, saar, sard, sarge, saugh, saw, sawe, scar, scare, schmeer, schwa, score, scour, sear, Sears, seer, sere, serr, Shah, shard, share, Shaw, shawe, shear, sheer, shere, shire, shmeer, shore, shour, shoure, shur, Sir, sir, sire, slaw, slur, smear, smeer, smore, snare, sneer, snore, soar, soor, soore, sore, sour, spa, spar, spare, sparre, spear, spere, sphere, spoir, spore, spur, square, squaw, stair, star, stare, steer, steere, stir, stoor, store, straw, sur, sure, svr, swa, sward, swear, swere, swoore, sword, swore, ta, ta, taa, tar, tare, Tarr, Taur, taw, tawe, tear, tear,

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teere, ter, tha, thair, thaire, thar, thaw, their, ther, there, theyre, Thor, tor, tore, tour, toure, trois, Tsar, twere, tweer, Tzar, ugh, uh, Ur, ur, urr, urre, vair, var, veer, Vuh, wah, War, war, ward, ware, wear, weer, Weir, weir, wer, were, werre, wher, where, Where?, whir, whirr, whore, whurr, wir, Wire, wire, word, wore, worre, wors, worse, ya, yaar, yard, yare, yaw, yeah, year, yeer, yer, yere, yheere, yoore, yore, youre, your, youre, yr, yre, Za, zha, Zsa. Me, Ill get there. Do you like that that last one? Ahhh. Oh boy! I gotta make one phone call. Ahhhh, it is exhausting. Well I like the idea that were getting a rhythm according to the chapters of the book, you know? That book is just so so much fun, isnt it? It has so many moods in it. I love this book. I know, I love it. I love it so much. The future who? Lars Movine. Oh yeah. Oh, hope. Hey Pam Pam Kenny Goldsmith. Does have a prognosis? Did he do a diagnosis on that computer that I brought in this morning. No Im not. Im just I wanted to know if he if its gonna be possible. Im not asking if the jobs been done I just want to know... OK can can you ask him if its going to be possible to install 7 3, 7 5 3? Thanks. You know when youre talking on this phone, it feels like youre not talking to anyone. So have you gotten to listen to the Cathy Berberian yet? Do you like this one? Its great. Isnt it? What do you think of this one? Have you listened to this one. O, OK, he doesnt OK. So when when should I get back to him do you think? OK, alright, hon. Bye. Ah, well I may end up meeting you guys for lunch after all. You want me to? I mean I dont really have anything going today I just gotta go down to J&R. Lets make a time and a place to meet for lunch so I dont have to go to the gallery with you guys spare me that. No, some place more interesting. You know where my mother wants to go? She wants to go remember remember that Korean that Korean place that we went to that night down-

stairs she wants to go to the upstairs. The guy that runs that place that guy that runs the... yeah, the guy that runs that place is is a friend of her designer. She wants to go there. So, why dont we meet tell me what time to meet you there, um. OK, well meet upstairs there at 1:15 and I will have dinner lunch with you guys. OK? Do I wanna come to the gallery? No. No no no no. Thats not necessary. Yeah. Thats good that that didnt ring during. So you you probably, OK, you wanna make it 1:30 for lunch? Are you meeting her at 12:30? Yeah no its its just totally totally right. Theres no two ways about that. It was really fun. I liked making a video equivalent we could do a few more chapters any time. It might actually be good to try to get hows the reading was it did it? It got better as it went along. Was there some funny parts in it or not really? Thats the first. Im actually learning to read the first chapter much better. Its weir weird, isnt it? Bullshit that follows. Is there some bullshit that follows? Yeah, its really good. Isnt that funny about may watch may not watch? Yeah. Yeah. Well, well have a good time in Greece. Thats for sure. And well have a good time in France. That Im really excited for. I mean, to get out of here for the summer ________ is gonna be good. Dont you? ________ Las Vegas. Ill pick an Art In America for my mother, OK? __________ bib im bop. Eat and Drink? Bibim bap. Bibim bap! Alright! Tell your sister bird. He call your sister a bird. Yeah. They is the they and your sister a bird. What? I that is the way it happens. Are we looking like the dog too? Bet! Yeah. Shes been so good lately. Shes been such a little trooper. Yeah, look, shes smiling. Youre going to spend a week with your friends. Starting I guess, yeah, starting I guess Sunday. Bets. Yep gonna stay with them, yeah, thats right. And then maybe well pawn her off on my sister this summer when we go to France. Say, Margie, howdya like a...

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How how would Max how would Max like a dog for 2 months? Ill bet actually theyre gonna do it. Do you think? Leaving her alone but well give them the box. Look at these two trendoids. Ugly clothes. Yeah, give her to my mother. Give the dog to my mother. Yeah. I dont, yeah, I dont well see I dont know, maybe well give her to Tarasuk. Maybe Bob can take care of her for a couple of months. Ah, well wor, well cross that bridge when we come to it. Or well well take her with us and well just leave in the in the on the chateau when we travel. She can would that be funny if, like, Bets went to France and lived on a chateau? Ask her. Maybe well do that. Look at this little this little one. Shes cute. I gotta pick something else up first. The dogs a shit machine. This dog takes like takes like 6 shits a day. Huh? She eats one bowl of food a day. She doesnt eat anything more than that. Baaaahh Ram Ewe. So lets say Ill meet you at 1:30. Cause I gotta I gotta run down to J&R I gotta buy some more cassette tapes? OK? So, youre gonna be there at 12:30 that means. That means you probably have an hour to kill with her? So you can go poking in some shops for a little bit... Hows...? No no no I dont think she really is. I dont think my Moms got a whole lot to do. Not today. Even if shes coming into the city at this hour. Well that worked out well. I couldnt read for that much longer. Uh. I brought my computer down quickly cause I knew I was not gonna be using it today to see if they could put 7 5 3 on it. Well, I just brought the box down. See if they if theyre gonna get to do that I know Ill lose all afternoon and the next while trying get the thing... anyway. Yeah. A new update, not a whole new system. Look how thin he is. You look so great, Bill. Youve lost so much weight. You look so good. Wait, Richards and who? Hows your keester? Small. Look at you you look so good, my god, youve lost so much weight. Im still cold from the win-

ter. Look at youve really lost so much weight. You look great, Bill. Jesus Christ. Where are you doing it? Wow. Wheres that? Wow. Thats interesting. When are you doing this? OK, OK, let us let us mull it. Also, what about what about dinner for coming over to our house for dinner? When? Yeah. But were here before then. How about the first weekend in May? Oh, youre right. How about... you know whats quickly, yeah. Tuesdays no good. Tuesdays no good because I got my radio show. How about the Sunday before that? Sunday nights are nice. Thats fine. Shut up, you guys wont wont wont I was sitting there waiting for you guys for like an hour, sitting there sipping two Jack Daniels getting sloshed. No wonder I fell asleep. Nobody showed up. I felt depressed. OK OK OK, quickly. Did Andreas did your show get reviewed? I was there when I was there. Thats fine. Or Wednesday the 8th is good too. Bye. I just dropped her back in my office she wont do it. Yeah, dont dawdle. Just walk right over there. Well thats alright. Shell probably be late too I mean getting in driving in parking. Yeah, Stefanos really good with mothers. Its 12:30. Ill see you at 1:30 at upstairs at Eat & Drink, OK? Huh? Hes so great. He looks good. He really lost weight. Jesus, he used to be so big. Hes got I mean hes still got got some to go but he really looks good. Baaah Ram Ewe. Hey Babette! Bets! Baaah Ram Ewe. Shes smiling. Cross that street. Goodbye Ill see you at 1:30 upstairs. OK. Cmon Bets. Anton, how you doing? Good, what have you got there? The face of Africa. How you doing? Good good good whats going on? Oh he is good and its all about my book. You know, its really the nicest thing. Alright I dont want to hold you up with this thing. It looks heavy. Im right here on Broadway and Houston. You see you saw Cheryls show? Yeah, I saw you at the opening, didnt I? Yeah yeah yeah. So many people. OK, yeah yeah. Lets hang out

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or something. Alright Anton. Pam. Ken Goldsmith. Hey, Im actually calling cause Chris called me. Alright. Ill tell you what? He just wanted to know when I purchased that computer and I purchased it on, uh, I think it was like November something. OK? Yeah. OK, so whats you dont know anything anything about it yet. OK, Ill call you guys Ill stop Ill stop up a little later. Oh, Im gonna be out. OK, Ill see ya Ill see ya later this afternoon. Thanks a lot, hon. Bye. No, you cant smoke in your office? Yeah, Im telling ya. Yeah. Well theyre, uh, oh well. The guy with the long hair. I gotta run. Ill see ya. Ah, Ill see you before that Im sure. Take care, man. Hi, can I get some small microcassettes, please? Uh, the 90s are the longest you have? OK, let me have yeah. Then you dont have 120s do you? Thats it? Can I have like 5 of those? Uh, 5 packs. Where did you guys move the magazines to? Alright. Thanks. Uh, if I can walk out of the store with these in my hand thats fine. OK, thanks a lot. How you doin? Were gonna be two, uh, 3, Im sorry, 3 for lunch. Non Smoking. Thats great? Your restroom is back there? Guess. Hi. Hey nice to meet you. Yeah. Well, guess what? My Mom and Cheryl are meeting me here for lunch. I had such a good time. He was a deadbeat? He was cute. I liked... I met him. I met him. We told him we told him you were there, yeah. So do you think somethings gonna happen with him? Yeah they I actually saw their site last night and it looked very, well, its information, yeah. So is she she going on about the Cyber thing to you? Yeah, its all we had a really good time last night. It was fun. She was like really weird woman whos probably like 23 going on 29 going on, like, 65. I didnt get that though maybe I mean she was so kind of I dont know, WASPY and cold and, you know, I mean I couldnt even relate to. Its not my its not my thing. I like something warmer, a little, you know, I mean Cheryl, you

know, I like Catholics and Jews. Its so corporate its strange. No no no it sounds good. Id like to work with her. Yeah, and I actually thought that guy was really nice, uh, I guess I didnt have to have dinner with him. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah were gonna meet what have you been up to? What have you been doing with yourself? You were doing Israeli art? Yeah, you were, yeah, right you were where John John and Karin werent you in John and Karins old building on, uh, is that 578? Ive been to your gallery before. Yes. So, its still going and things are good? Good. Good. Well, alright you guys, Im gonna let you do your thing. Maybe on your way out youll stop this is terrific. Im not Im not as interested Im going to go to another friend of mine well, here you go. Yeah, well, theres much Ive Ive got lots to gab about. I was gonna gonna give you a whole rundown cause I have lots of thoughts on that. OK, you guys Ill nice to see you again. Yeah, theyre sitting in the post postcard rack. Yeah, my Mom will love these. Sure, you can have a bunch. With you? I, you know, can I tell you I havent been to see the show yet? My Mom is Ill give her a bunch of these. I havent seen it either. Theres a lot of good great artists in the show, I mean, you know. I havent got were going to see it Sunday were going to see Xenakis. Were gonna go to Vedanta then were gonna go to The Jewish Museum and then were going to go see Xenakis. Oh, was tonight that? Im just not that Im not a not really a supporter of that work, you know, what can I say? I know you do. Anyway, have fun you guys. Come say hi on your way out, OK? How you doin? Can I have, um, you have that really good tea, right? Yeah I love that. Can I have that and a glass of water? Um, yeah yeah. Um, vegetable roll sushi grains, oh, whats like whats really neat? Are those I know what summer rolls are I know what spring. What is the shitake vegetable roll? Yeah, I have one, yeah, just lets start

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with that. And actually why dont you bring a, um, I guess these guys are gonna be... why dont you bring a dumpling? They should be here really soon. Maybe I should order a few apps before they sit down. Why dont, yeah, OK, forget it. Yeah and the, uh, and the, uh, shrimp and water chestnut dumplings. And why dont you bring some summer rolls as well. And when they and when they get here therell be some things here for them to eat. Oh, well its OK. Hi, I just ordered a bunch of appetizers for us. Yeah, hello. Glad to join you. Sit here Mom. Yeah, sit here, look out the window. Its nice. I find this space is OK if youre sitting where we are. Cheryl and I had dinner in the back one night. It was very dark. This is your friends restaurant, right? The the friend of, uh, the friend of... yeah. Yeah. Upstairs. Ohhhh, I thought it was a restaurant. Thats why I took you here. Oh, the food here is is interesting I know, the food we ate here, the food here is excellent, actually. But, uh... OK, straight back, Ma, on your left the two women sitting there on your left the one facing us in the br in the blue shirt? Thats Andrea Scott. Why dont you say hi to her on the way back. You guys go say hi. How was it? Like, OK. Yeah, you go say hi to her. Oh, we didnt realize that was soup. Oh, OK OK, great. Thanks. I was like, how are we gonna split soup between 3 people? Got it got it. Thats great, thats great. Very cool. Thanks. Do you have a little hot sauce or some? What have you got? Do you have chili, like some kind of like red chili sauce, yeah. That will be good. Now the trick here is that you dont eat the soup. These are just like keeps it warm. You just eat the dumplings. Yeah. Well. OK, so this is summer rolls. These are summer rolls that are filled with, I guess, vegetables and vermicelli and this is shitake, uh, mushrooms. She told me I said I said oh how are we gonna how are we gonna split that? What do you like, Cheryl? Take

take your your pick here. No, Im gonna Im gonna eat eat with you everything you guys have. Why dont you guys choose one of these and Ill Ill theyre both, no no no just take one. Theyre gonna be too salty. Go ahead and Im gonna take one of these. Great. You put these in this sauce I think? Plum sauce. Oh, this is so good. Interesting food, isnt it? So how did you guys go at the gallery? Great. Whoa! Did you leave that to someone else, Mom? You should have learned that. Which what were you on time? Hot sauce. And is Stefano nice, Ma? A celebration for Cheryls piece. Well you have. I definitely need some water. We are not quite but wed like two more waters and two more teas. Yes. Go ahead, try it. No, no. Im gonna attempt to put this thing. I dont know if its really gonna work. Looking good. Thanks. Looking good. Ive never been there. Yeah. Im devastated. Try this, Mom. Im not. Right. I I gotta be honest. I dont I dont I never think about Grandpa Irving, rarely, and I never think of Grandma. Your parents, on the other hand, are are make I have much more of a connection to and will will, you know, when they pass away, no no, Ill feel Ill really feel the loss with them. I mean I really have a real connection to them. As a matter of fact, Cheryl and I were at a party the other night and there was a woman yeah, with a cane that had a fish on it, the same one your Mom has and I just, like, I was like that makes me feel really happy, yeah I got really happy. I thought of your mother. I was just thinking about her. So. Well, no kidding. Yeah, well she just doesnt want to be held down, does she? Oh, so why dont we look at the menu. If we have a daughter were gonna name it Phillipa. Yeah, hes pegged. Not it will be Phillipa Finnegan Phillipa Finnegan Donegan Goldsmith. Thats thats it. Phillipa Finnegan Donegan Goldsmith. Thats it. I love it. Thats what its gonna be. Or Philip Finnegan Donegan Goldsmith.

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That a good, no no. I like it. Two for you. Two for me. Cheryl did you say hi to Andrea? Was she nice? Internet. Art on the Internet. Ma, what are you gonna get? Spicy grilled shrimp with fruit salsa? You making shrimp for us? Yeah I mean if you have shrimp tomorrow might as well have something different. Uh, thats oh, where do you see that? Ugh, yam noodles. Im having, guess what Cheryl? Bibim bap is very good here. What did he say? Is that what he said? Ha ha ha. Life is lovely. I was a nice guy until Margie came along. Is she cute? Hooray for formula. I like formula. Look at me. Yeah, were ready, yeah. Ill Ill just have a regular bibim bap. I find it so boring. And then were going to Las Vegas. It should be fun, it should be, yeah. It looks like its gonna work out, yeah. Im gonna try to pawn my animal off on my sister. Think Max would like a little dog for the for two months? Ill bet he would. Yeah, we cant leave Babetter with Lois and Diane for two months. I did that when we went to India. Its a too much. I... Shes an easy shes an easy one. They get along well. Yeah, were gonna have to were gonna have to... we cant take her for two months, so. Yeah, when is it when is it gonna be cooked by? Yeah, but my Mom doesnt go up there, well actually you go up there to the beginning of midJuly so youll miss a few weeks. No, Margie. Cause its all up to Margie, not you. No, seriously, Max Max would have a dog. It would be nice up there. I mean they dont really go any, you know, theyre home this summer pretty much and all theyve got to do is open up the door and let the dog out. She doesnt need, she doesnt need much. It would be what? Yeah, we have a vaccination. Yeah. Yeah, several years ago. Dont be too sure. So tell us about the house. Whats going on there? Whats the latest? Yeah, Id say the nice the nice kitchen. Yeah yeah. Oh my god. Ma, whats happening with Port Washington? Did you get the trees from there? What?

Uh, this is I dont think youre gonna see this thing, yeah, right. OK, do you have any, um, some chopsticks? Thanks. Yep yep. Uh, look at the baby egg, yeah. Uh, will you? Yeah, we got one. The food here is really good. Its really interesting, isnt it? Yeah, that sounds great. Yep, yep. Babies and travels and... With the Gross? Where are you going? Where? Oh, Ive been there. Right right. No. No. Yeah, but no it wasnt North Carolina. It was Roanoke, yeah. But anyways, so what are you gonna do there, Ma? Anybody wanna try some of this? Dig in. A resort? So Andrea. See you soon, email you sooner. Richards got an opening tonight? By Marge. See you again. I dont know I can have some shit. Now, um, so you know what one of my my fondest memories is is of the Beaumont Inn. Well, I liked that because it was it really felt like the South and and, uh, you know, we had grits and it was very gracious. It was very... it was very gracious, I mean, I remember big trees it was really old, yeah, and I remember the food was really, like, Southern food. Yeah yeah I just remember it being extremely Southern. It was so different from the from where we were. Very much, yeah. Very old. Yeah. Thank god. What is this with golf? People just get so addicted to this sport. I mean, Norman sounds like Howard. Sounds like your Dad. It sounds like people get really obsessive with this sport it it does not it does not sound healthy to me. How the fact that Howard is now immediately looking to get out of the business and spend and spend his which is great but golf. I mean, its very sad for Howard. Oh, its pathetic. I find it I really find the whole thing silly, really silly. Even when Doovie got bit he went hard. Same with Todd Lerner. Who? Who? Irving. It got him the hell out of the house. Got him a little exercise. He never struck me as compulsive not in the not nearly the way that like these guys sound today. It was, you know, it was a sport. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. I dont know. I think some passions are not healthy and some passions are better than others and I dont think its OK just to be passionate, you know, you can be passionate about some pretty bad things like, you know. You know, I think its a major waste waste of time and life. Really, you know, I think its, yeah yeah. Who am I to judge? Thats thats not saying much, Cheryl. You shouldnt be be out hurting people anyway. Yeah its insubstantial. Its just a game. Games are good. They have their place. So why are you advocating passion for that then? Thats thats not healthy. Thats not good. Yeah, well. It seems like a total waste of a life to take the last 30 years of your life and spend it on a golf course. Really great, thanks. Im not gonna... Yes, its too bad. I would enjoy seeing him. You know, its the same problem. Its the same problem, I like your Dad. Anyway, you know, it just seems pathetic. Who says Im not judgmental? Me? Barbara is the lady of the arts and Norman has the intellect to become a golfer. Theyre already theyre grandparents before, several times. Yeah. Yeah. I love you. I love something at the end of a meal. Were in love, my wife and I. Speaking of which, we have an anniversary and a birthday coming up. We have a request. We need something. Oh, have you already been through this? No, no. Forget it. It seems like youve already you guys have talked about this? We need a piece of furniture. So, what did she say? Did you say we need a piece of furniture? Naw, its my Mom. She loves to give. Where where do you think we would get something like that? I guess were going to have to shop around. We live near a million furniture stores. I dont want any old garbagey piece of nyuh-nyuh. I want something new and elegant and nice. I really dont want some chipped paint and nonsense anymore. We want something actually we may want something built for us actually. I like what you

were saying about those like a nice big cherry wood cabinet. We really need more room. You I dont know what Cheryl in a nutshell were gonna stay where we are for probably another two years at which time were gonna think about having a kid and getting a bigger place. In probably 3 years were gonna have a kid. So were gonna start thinking about having a kid in two years and were gonna but so were gonna we decided were probably we just gonna stay put for another two years here why it serves us well. But if were gonna stay put here were definitely gonna need a little more closet space well, you know, you know, we dont have much... we dont have anything in the way of furniture so a nice chest, something we can take with us, a nice cabinet, something we can take with us to the next apartment, um, you know, thats going to be bigger, uh, and will look nice anywhere, uh. No, if we get a beautiful, very simple like a cherry wood, you know, thing I dont even know what theyre called, you know, with doors that open. Armoire, were you can hang things with some drawers that pull out. You know, its just gonna be a classic thing thats why I dont commit to any, sort of, real style with it. I want it just to be a really beautiful piece of cabinetry, a piece of, uh, cherry like you talked about the cherry and the piece of cherry cabinet that will look good in any room with any with any style. I wanna commit to, you know, if I got if I get something from Eileens, you know, then we kind of got to commit to a country thing which, Im Im getting a little burnt on so to make the next two years more tolerable, I think this is what wed like to get. I dont know. Yeah. If not you know of a good cabinetmaker? Your guys in the country are very expensive. Well, well go look around. I dont want a piece of junk, though, I dont want like a piece of plywood. Yeah. Why dont we start shopping then when we come up with something well let you

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know. Yeah. Yeah we have so little I think it would be nice to have a... yeah. It will just make living there for another two years tolerable. Can he do fine cabinetry? Really, when is he leaving? If he could bang it out in a week well take it. No, I mean Im talking about something with really nice drawers that gently pull out, things that close, you know. Standing closet, no. Heres what I want. Ma, I have opinions. Ma, I want a tall thing, about 7 feet tall that that the reason I want it so tall is that so you can have a rare, like the top will be sort of a shelf and then a little below it will be a rail and you can hang your your clothes in that like extra closet space. Then below that is kind of a, uh, a shelf where you can put some where Cheryl can put some of, you know, Cheryl can put some of her jewelry and stuff on top and the a few, say 3 drawers underneath. Yeah, and suits, not not and right. Right. The long coats can go in the closet. I mean weve got one closet weve been living like monks for years and we figure, you know, this is a nice step and we figure, you know, in a direction that were gonna were planning to move in a direction that were moving in anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It wont be it wont be that huge because we dont have that much space. Well have to measure where that green thing is. So I was thinking in that yellow room a really nice piece of rich kind of cherry furniture would look really really pretty. Um, yeah yeah yeah we will we will start. We will start looking. Thanks, Ma, that would be that would be a great anniversary birthday gift. That would be excellent. Thats a good one. Well, we dont we dont have well, yeah, we never have these kinds of things. Whats a matter, youre not eating your food? That was good. Im gonna Im gonna pick. Did you drive in? Where are you parked? Yeah. Are the babies coming? Both both the babies are coming? I think were set, thanks. Its really good. Cheryl Im gonna need to take to go

home to get your computer and use it today. Yeah. And I have to say. I said to Cheryl the first day it began to get warm in New York, maybe a month ago, I said Im not gonna be here again this summer. Weve been here for 5 summers the last 5 Augusts and I said I just cannot be here. We started to think about renting a little place upstate, you know, somewhere for a few months if we couldnt do this but then this came up and I was like lets do it and its free and I wanna get the hell out of here. I dont want to be in New York for another summer. Yeah, were just using it as a base for traveling. You know, well well work sometimes but then well take a tr well go down to Italy for for a week go to go to Spain. OK, yeah, well have a nice time. Weve never traveled weve never traveled to Southern Europe. And and then well just hang around at at this place and just work. Ive got plenty of writing to do. Yeah, nobodys nobodys chaining you there so well give it a shot. What the heck, I mean, it sounds it sounds like they have a place in Beaujolais. Its in Beaujolais. It should be nice. Weve also got Edmond as our good friend in Paris. We know enough people over there. Edmond has promised us that when we come to Paris hes gonna, you know, he says. You met Edmond. He came out to our house for dinner. Remember the young French guy several years ago maybe 5 years ago he came out? He says oh, he was just in town last week with his sexy, young girlfriend and he just said, you know, whenever you guys come to Paris I owe you a major one because of how good you treated me when I was in New York that summer we we took the man from from the Bronx Zoo to Coney Island and everything in between, I mean, we really showed him the town. OK, you guys, Ill tell you what. Heres what I gotta do: why dont why dont you guys sit for a second let me run up to my office, let me get Bets shes been locked up and I gotta get I gotta go

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home and get your computer well walk Mom down to the car Ill be 5 minutes. Let me just run up and get Bets. Oh, yeah. Here, Ma. Heres this two treats. First of all, youll laugh. Youll laugh at this. This crap. This crap is you know the little postcards they give out for free in restaurants? Have fun. Send them to all your friends. And the other thing. The, uh, my book was, uh, written about in this issue of a magazine. This critic wrote an article about writers, so I want you to have a look at that. I want you to just take it home and read it it explains my book, you know. Explains the whole thing. Ill be alright, let me, uh... OK. Ma, send those to your friends. Theyll like that. Ill be right back. Whats up? Alright. She recognizes you. OK, thats its nice. OK. Hello, Ma she totally knows you. Hey Ma, I have a question: is this your key? Oh, thats what it is. OK, OK. I thought this was the place your friend owned. What can I say? Pretty, isnt it? Cheryl? Check. Oh, yeah. Shes so clean. No, were working. Were working. Ill be back. Alright, Ill see you again. Yeah, youll enjoy Bruce. Hes, uh, hes the guy who got me into opera in the first place, yeah, youll Bruce is a great hes like our best friend now, I mean, hes hes great. Hes, what is he about 48 Cheryl? Hell really appreciate this opera. Do you like that one I gave you that Madama Butterfly? Is that right. No, this isnt it. Yeah, I like that one you like his voice? You like Jussis voice? Thats Cheryls favorite. What are you looking for? Wait, what is it what are you looking for? Oh, yeah, I got a I got a Im not going to be able to hang. Ive got lots to do. So, Im gonna run home and get your computer. Im having a system upgrade which means Im gonna lose the next 3 days trying to get my computer back together again. Uh, just updating it which just means that everythings not gonna work again, so, until I start to get it straightened out I just know this is gonna take

a big portion of my life Cheryl what are you doing tonight? Are you gonna go to Richards? Yeah, alright, yeah, Im gonna go to aikido tonight I hope. Could use a little exercise. No we dont have belts. Then hes not doing aikido. There are no belts in aikido. No there arent. Theres black and theres white but there are no colors so hes probably studying studying some other some other sport. Hey today is Margies birthday, isnt it? Whats she doing for her birthday? Why is Max staying home? Is he cute, Ma? Do you think this is all because the new baby? Yeah, well take a day and actually start to look. Today is not the day. Listen, I was a nice guy until Margie came along. I never got over it. Does he scream a lot? Well, what does that mean he hit you? Listen, no, seriously. I want you and Dad to read just you dont have to read the whole article its boring but just read the the part about me and so youll understand what this book is all about. This summer. Probably well have a party for it and in June in June, Im sorry in August September were gonna be out of town blah blah blah blah blah blah. So, Ill let you know. OK. So, tomorrow at 11 and then Ma Ill find out the name of this restaurant Ill Ill research that that well all meet. Youll youll enjoy meeting Magda shes really sweet. She took me to her mothers house so I mean I, you know, youre gonna get along with her shes really lovely. What is she, about 20? Magdas about 20 or 19, something like that? Shes real fat. She got real fat now. Oh I dont I dont think itll be in there. No, its its not a world class restaurant. Oh, is that right? Hows my dog looking, OK? Yeah, we fed her senior food. Bets sit. Babette, sit. Oh, look at her face, Ma, look at how gray she is. Hows Seymour? Is he cute or is he a pain in the ass? Hows hows The Judge? Yeah before traffic gets... yeah, just make a right and swing right around. Its not this street its gonna be the

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next one. See Avenue of the Americas? Its gonna go, its gonna hook right around. See you tomorrow! OK, so Ma well see you tomorrow at 11. Ill Ill call you and let you know what train actually if its nice well just walk from the station. Is it supposed to be nice tomorrow? Is it supposed to be nice? Well call Marge. OK, and maybe well get her a little something, OK? OK, we gotta get Grandma a little something. What, yeah, what would she like? Oh, 30, 30 bucks something like that. Yeah, OK, well look for something, well look for something. Alright! Well see you tomorrow. Bye Mom. Its fine. Bye. Yeah, let me have opin let me have opinions. See ya! Im exhausted from that. Its another one of those exhausting ones. How did she how did she do in your show? Alright? OK. And Stefano was nice to her? Yeah, I guess, you know, people and their parents and their in laws people are very nice to them now at our age. Were sort of past that thing where youre embarrassed when your parents show up, sort of not really. Cheryl, one of the main reasons Im doing this upgrade in the computer is so I can see your piece, so we can access your piece. Uh, Sunday night. Thank god, its a pain in the ass. I still got lots to go. I got dinners and concerts, grandparents. Oh yeah, this is a this is a real a real week, isnt it? Hey, its a typical week really. Its a real slice of what goes on. We have lunches and concerts and, oh my god. It is funny. A radio show. Ive got my whole radio show taped. When I was out there yakking on the radio. Well, fucking words are cheap, man. Theyre very plentiful and theyre very cheap. Gee, it never crossed my mind to think about mens legs. Did you call them? Would you deposit these two ch 3 your 3 checks? Tell you what, I gotta run. Would you just send the fax from my computer? It works fine. OK? OK, Ive gotta get the thing and then Ive got to start reconfiguring my whole system, my whole life

and then I have to have coffee with Jody Zellen so... What are you doing? Youre just gonna go to the gym, alright and go to Richards? Alright. OK. All that jazz, huh? Alright? Are you the secretary? Why do I always find times with my family just really I feel so tired right now. Oh, Im so exhausted. I wonder what that what that is. Ugh. You have those 3 checks to deposit, right? OK, lets if you can do that today thats good. Alright. Money is money, right? Money is as money does. Call. Why dont you call them right now? Right now. This is so important to call Dan and Lawre and and make a date to see them and I will go out any time to see them, OK? This is really important, OK? Alright baby, Im gonna Im gonna roll. That nice to give my mother those cards and that article? Yeah, you think so? No, we have no stamps. We gotta get more. Ill mail Ill mail away for some, OK? Alright. Goodbye. Good luck and Ill see you later tonight after everything maybe youll go out with some people at the opening do what do what do whatever you like, OK? Im gonna try to catch some aikido and probably come back and work on my computer some more, you know, try to get it up and running again. Alright, I love you and Im gonna take Bets. See you then. See you for an appointment. Alright, jumpy, lets go. See you later. OK, go on. Bets cats. Cats. Bets cats. Hey. How you doin? Alright. Can I get a small bag of food? You keeping track of this? Should we look at it or next... Can we can we look? Lets see, we took two big bags and two small bags and some treats. We should, lets write it down so we know. Alright, yeah. Alright. I took two of the large ones. If you want to scribble it down so we know to to keep. You wanna write it here? We took. I think Im gonna need another big one. So we got two of the big ones so far and two of the little ones and some treats. You have it right here. Right. Good good good. Yeah. OK. And the that

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was you wanna write this one down and how much was the kennel? OK. Alright, so. OK, alright then well, yeah. Alright. Good. Thats good thats good OK Im gonna need this is thisll hold her for the weekend. OK, thanks a lot. See you later. Its happened to me before. Ah, theres another one. Theres always another one coming, right? Theres so many elevators all the time. Hi. OK. Go get em. Go get em. Babettes here. How you doing? Good, really good. Bets Bets, go say hi to Mary Ann. Is that my original memory? Is that waranteed memory? OK, do your thing, do your thing. She loves you every day, Pamela. She loves you every day, Pam. She loves you every day shes doesnt act too. The dog was just washed yesterday. Shes immaculate. She really is. I know. You know you know shes got a lot of animals, doesnt she? No. What do you mean moose? Theres no moose. What do you mean youre shes human, cmon get up. Shes also getting older. She used to just... yeah yeah yeah. She gets love. She knows everyone in this building, I mean, shes like the mascot here. When Im without the dog, no one knows who I am. Babette. 7 years. Well, shes middle age, shes middle age. Middle aged. Yeah, shes, uh, they should live about thirteen years. 12, 13 years. Get another 5 years out of her, 6 years. No no, its just getting gray. She used to be jet black. I only got everything from you, yeah yeah. Sure, I think it should be covered. Right, its original memory. Also, did he did he put 7 3, 7 5 3 in? Can you ask him? Can you ask him if its possible to just put Open Transport 1 1 on and not the rest of the system? Mary Ann should I go get the should I go get the the invoice? OK. Did he say its possible to do it? Id like to 1 0 8 and its not its not jiving. 7 5 2. Yeah, OK, Ill be right down then. Thanks. Cmon, pal. What do you mean Im lucky? Take the dog? Im lucky that oh, you want me to leave her down here? Oh, forever. I got another

5 years or so on this one. Ill be right down. Cmon. Yep, I have the original I have the orig is the copy good enough? I have an original in the copy. Yeah, and it says it says 8 megabytes DIMM. OK, um, would it be possible for them to replace the SIMM and also throw Open Transport 1 1 by the end of the day? Would that would that be possible? Cause Im not gonna be able to. Yeah, unless it can somebody just give me a copy of 1 1? I can throw it on myself, its no big deal. Are you just OK. Its Friday, babe. Its Friday. Freaky Friday. You have such a good attitude for somebody whose life is a living hell. I dont know how you deal with this madhouse everyday. You got to be a people person. If not, forget it. Youre right. Youre right. And youre ugly, Bets. Bets youre ugly. Shes cute but ugly. What do you seriously when can you, its... You wanna you wanna walk over if not is the box open? My my machine, is it open right now? But Ill tell you what. You wanna walk over and see if they have it if they dont Ill just take it upstairs and Ill do this another day, yeah. Lets do it another day cause I could I could use the computer I cant lose it for the weekend. Unless. When are you guys moving? Im gonna miss you. I know but its this is this is. You do? You got a gym? We used to have a gym here. Its gone. Yeah. Oh, its so nice that its not here anymore. Oh, I never got that, thankfully. Oh, I hate that. Oh, I hate that. Its really stupid. Babette she wants to be near you. Youve got a kid. They cute? How old? Oh, then theyre not theyre long past cute. I didnt know you had kids so old. When you have kids so old theyre long past cute. 15 is... lets... OK. Why dont I take my machine back now. Its functioning good enough. Oh, so can can we throw that back in so I can use it this weekend? And is it a huge pain in the ass? Causes then well deal with this all again next week. Hey Julio, how you doing. Pretty good, pretty good. No com-

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plaints. She what? She never kicks ass, never. I dont know, you know? Ive never seen that side of her. She senses, like crazy people in the street shell sense. And shell get her hackles up and start barking at madmen in the street. Yeah, thats the only time Ive gotten a glimpse of that. This is boxer style. I wonder if she really would. You know people... I dont know. I dont know. You know that shes enough of a visual deterrent on the street. Most people are afraid of her. Do you have a dog? Oh, theyre cute. Theyre mean too. He have a purple tongue? Like black gum like black gum or black tongue? What happened to him? Yeah. Uh, yeah I have the original here, yeah. So she went to the sis she went to California? How how did it, yeah, so how is the dog now? Ah, yeah, aw. Aw. Did your kids like the dog? What do your kids do? Shes finishing with school. High school. I got my sisters da, uh, my sisters my wifes sister is 15 also. Its a rough rough time, man. You love that, huh? Where do you live? On what? Yeah, so what do you which train do you take to get down here? From 205th? Yeah, but but its also the D the D moves. The moves from 125th to 59th and then from 34th to 4th. I live right around the corner. I like it down here. Well, we got, I mean, Cheryl and I have the teeniest apartment but its just us and the dog, so. Yeah, were gonna have a kid in like 3 years we decided. Just one. Yeah no no, Im not that young. Ill be 35. Yeah, Ill be 35 in, um... Shes major. Shes then shes calm. Shes like Zen. Shes got the Zen vibe. We can we can all learn something from that attitude. Whoa, did you say damn the other day, Mary Ann? The office stopped. So, how we doing Mary Ann is there... for, old memory in is he gonna throw 1 1 in there today, well do that that... OK, when? Can I pick this up at about 5:30? OK, alright. Ill see you guys what time are you here till? Until 6? Until 6 so? OK. OK. How you doing? OK. Alright. Kenny,

how you doing? Wheres my animal. OK, I gotta run upstairs. Bets. What is she? Alright, Ill pick her up when I come get my computer. Cmon, pal. Lets go. Ill see you guys Ill see you guys in just a little bit. Cmon, Bet. Cmon, baby. Oh boy. Bets come. Good girl. Yes. Are you getting food? Uh, you are. Bets. Come Bets. Bets come. Oh boy oh boy. What a day. Hey. How you doing? Good to see you. Wheres do you mind the dog do you want me to? Yes, its Babette. Yeah, shes 7. How you doin? Good. Wheres Daniel? Brian. I kept thinking Daniel. I dont know why I just put my shoes on its so nice out. Maybe well sit outside and get a coffee? Yeah. Where is he from? I see. Huh. Thats good. Uh huh. I dont know her, no. Lets lets go outside Ive got about a half hour and then Ive got my my, uh, Ive got all these. I just had lunch with my mother. Yeah, shes just in seeing Cheryls show. What? Sure, Im from Long Island. My whole 35 years, I guess 31 of them have been spent within 20 minutes of where were standing right now. Yeah. Yeah, sure, well all get a fresh, a little fresh air. Its beautiful is it still warm out? Great. Great. Yeah. Anything to get out. Alright gwan go ahead, gwan. Go on, Bets. Babette go on. What are you waiting for? You waiting for your leash, OK. Here it is. Same old dog. No. Oh, one more thing. My sunglasses. Is it sunny out? Really? Oh here it is. OK you. You talking to me? You calling me handsome? I everybodys like. She everybody is like saying, oh youre so cute youre so cute I say you talking to me? No. Well, of course. The dog gets to do everything. What do you think, shes a dog or something? Alright. Back food, yeah. Yep, 100%. What are you getting? Are you gonna bring it to the office? Yeah, they love dogs here. Thats the best part of this building. Oh, what do you take the subway a month. Oh yeah, thats a hassle. I I walk her to work everyday. Yeah, thats a hassle. Yeah, no. No,

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huh? Ay, theres plenty of them need homes, right Jody? Hey Mike. How you doing? Yeah, everybody should bring their dog everywhere. I love dogs, right? No, dogs are much more colorful. Bicycles just sit there they dont... See you around, alright? Love em. Thats why I stay here. Thats one of the main reasons I stay here. Rover! Rover! So why dont we get a why dont we get a coffee and take it outside theres a nice theres a place to sit thats alright. What do you want, Jody? Can I have one black coffee one regular? One black coffee one regular, please? You want anything else? You want a muffin or anything? Doesnt this look good? Piece of shit, doesnt it? Ay, this ones on me, big spender. OK. Aggressive much? Thank you. OK, theres black. Hey, I like those catalogs you sent me. Theyre beautiful. Boy, nice work. Thats, yeah, thats great. God, I can see youre good I mean I I know how to use those programs but not nearly as good as you. Its a good way to make money, isnt it, working on the computer? The what? I thought that was whats his name that that yeah but I thought it was the, uh, Grimes. And this is the collector out there that Keith used to talk about all the time, what? How? No. Hey Robert! Good to see you. Very good. Jody Zellen, Robert Morgan. It was nice to see you the other day. Well, Im going out tomorrow for my grandmothers birthday, uh, and and yeah, so well miss each other tomorrow. Im going to see Xenakis at, uh, at the 92nd. St. Y. 2:00. I believe so, yeah. I cant, Ive got to pay for mine, I paid 25 bucks a piece. Student discount, yeah. My radio station discount. So do you. You know Robert, youre looking very young. So, anyway, have a good time and it was really good seeing you. Keep Cheryl in mind for the subbing gig. The substitute gigs. Yeah, definitely do. That thatd be really helpful. Ill see you soon, OK? The problem with this city you know everyone, you know? Well, I mean its such a scene

I dont know about if parts of L.A. are like that but... I guess if you go to gallery areas, right? What in New York youve been there oh yeah I know, its really insane I mean I cant walk anywhere. You know, its like people I dont know where anybody gets the idea that the citys not friendly its too friendly, if anything. You know I know so many people here its really insane. All I do you see how many people I know by just walking out the door its like blah blah blah blah blah especially with the dog, you know, then its even more. Some people dont even know who I am when I have the dog. Its fine. Especially SoHo, I mean, I live on Thompson and Grand I work on Broadway and Houston and, you know, that walk, no matter what way I go I run into people I know, so. Yeah. Get em Bets. Ahhh. Ive Ive got all winter. You know, again, if youve got youre oh, and here comes the guard, man hes gonna kick us out. Son of a bitch. What? If the dogs not allowed here so this guys gonna come and throw us out of here. Were gonna have to go sit what? Yeah, then hell come and take the dog. Ah, shit. Bets sit. Stay. He does. He does. Alright. No, I dont know whose dog that is. Nice, though. What? Yeah, he should be more concerned about this guy. Alright I think hes nice. Hey, come here. Cmere. Sit down. Bets you sit. Not on me. Bets. Babette. Come. Sit. Babette sit. Sit. Sit. Come. Good girl. So, at any rate, so those are really nice so you doing more? You sent me Lisa and Freds. Oh, what with ceramics? I dont know who that is. Are you just working at home then? Yeah, what do you have? I have an 8500. I love it. Its great. Its like a Cadillac, I mean, I. So youre not working at all in that photo place anymore. Thats great. Ill bet the moneys much better too. What happened with subway piece. Oh, you didnt tell me. Oh, you you last time time we spoke it was just sort of underway. We spoke last, yeah, we spoke last

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yeah, didnt we have lunch at that place like about a year ago and you and the subway thing was just it was sort of it was it was gonna happen or it was underway but its done now, huh? And theyre up? Oh, I bet it I bet it does. This is for that wall, right? Oh so Pauls running like home. What is he the eleventh? You got heroin, huh? And you worried and you worried about a dog? This dog has never done drugs in her whole life. She clean, cleaner than anyone. Shes never drank drinks either. You can pet her if you want shes very friendly. Its good. Yeah. Yeah, shes this ones very friendly I like to let her get a get a little smell of the grass, you know, make her think shes not in the city all the time. Its quiet here and I know she doesnt bother anyone. If she ever, uh, does any business on the grass, Ill take care of it. I appreciate it, you know, I dont like that concrete dog run over there because, uh, its not fair to the dogs. They need a little they need a little place to run around. You have a dog? What have you got? Yeah, is that one of those big ones? What color? Theyre cute, arent they all? This one is this one is a hero around this neighborhood. Just because shes so beautiful and friendly. I take her up to Washington Square sometimes when I can get up there. I work right in the Cable Building here so I usually its usually a bit of a walk over there if I can get out I take her to work with me I like to let her roam around the grass a little bit back here and then put her on the other grass thats taboo. This one we can get away with occasionally. Horrible. The people are crazy. Theyre insane, yeah. Theyre really insane. Well, you gotta worry about the heroin guy I mean I guess hes not really gonna hurt anyone. But it doesnt look good for the neighborhood and I dont think its good for the kids to be around that either. Alright. Alright. Well this one theres nothing to worry about with this one. She doesnt deal drugs and she

doesnt do em either. And kids like her. The kids like her. Yeah. Good. Hey thanks a lot. We we appreciate cuttin us a little slack. Much ap, yeah, we were just joking with you. Much appreciated. Thank you. Hes great. Have people graffittied it? Huh. Its really beautiful. This would look great in like I mean its just so amazing how its finally in a site relating to the architecture, I mean its just terrific, Jody. I see it I see it, yeah. I think its quite successful, really I think it should be like in an architecture magazine. Theyre gonna give you more money? Did you make money on this? Good. Thats unbelievable. Its great. Yeah, this is a beautiful one this one of the city. Perfect. It looks like youre gonna, these are great. It looks like youre gonna need a bigger machine. Wow! These are beautiful, really. Oh Jody, these are these are, oh, Ive seen this Ive seen something very I saw some of the ones you sent me oh I love this one of all the pictures on the wall and the salon. Jody, these are terrific. This is a real breakthrough, huh? Oh, god theyre so beautiful. Yeah, where is this? You sent. Right. I love these. I love these. Now, Ive always loved everything youve done this is just more its its a little different and its just as good. This is beautiful. Isnt that great? Smart. Oh, well, you will, you will. Well, but I you know, I dont know the show Paul curated this month its a bad show so, you know, I have I have some doubts. Yeah, who wrote it? Thats great. Well, Im just still sort of so out of the loop Im certainly, I know Im never we never do that but I I certainly dont dont really know whats going on too much. Go on, now you can go back there. Shes so human. Yeah, I just finished a big, yeah, the book Ive been working on for 3 years I finished its being published by Geoff Young this summer. You wrote me about Geoff you saw him, right? Where, in L.A.? Yeah, oh hes a great guy and hes... Shes protecting it all. How do you know Geoff? Oh,

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we right right in Washington, right I think we talked about him, thats right, we had this question. Yeah, Im really Im really pleased, yeah, hes publishing this book, should be this summer. Ah, 600 page book of experimental writing, yeah. Yeah Im really happy about that. Ive done a lot of readings over the years, I mean, I reallyve been working on this for 3 years so but, you know, its just kind of an ongoing thing but its finally done, Im so happy its done. Yeah, its in the publishers hands. Yeah, he he says its the summer but itll probably be the fall. It took years to write it so if it takes another year to get it out its fine with me. So, yeah, so thats thats very very satisfying, that was really good and really happy to do that. Lets see, I had already come back from India when I saw you, right? Oh, it was that we havent seen each other since then? I just it was the fall. You were in, no I was in Caracas in November. I was in India no a while ago. We met last spring and I had been to India then, no I was in Caracas in the fall. Im DJing at WFMU which is a good radio station out here. Its freeform which means you can play whatever you want so I do a I do an all night radio show, uh, every Tuesday night, its really fun. Its about what Im playing. Im playing, its a real mix of stuff but a lot of, uh, experimental and twentieth century classical. You saw Joan, thats right. Some of 73 Poems, the whole thing? When was that? Was she good? Was the piece good that she did of ours? Yeah, its really nice, I mean that piece has really got got kind of legs. Its very interesting what what happened to that. What else did she do, do you recall? Shes very good, isnt she? She have did she have a good crowd? I thought LACE was really famous. Uh, it... yeah, Joan all that music that Im into never gets any respect. I mean, all what I read and what I do, what I play on the radio. I call my show Unpopular Music I figured, you know, its mostly a pop sta-

tion. I I put some pop stuff in but not a whole lot. Well, Im not, well most people are not, well, what whatever I can get my hands on. Do you do you know Sun & Moon Press in L.A. I mean he he does a lot of good stuff. Have you been to his bookstore ever? Reading? I mean he, Douglas is a great place to start. Hes a good guy, if you go in there hes really friendly and you just ask what you just asked me or tell him that you know me and Douglas will send you out with a stack of amazing experimental writing. I mean, its like really where Im living these days, you know, in that world. I mean Geoff Young published a lot of that stuff too over the years. Uh, well, I know Michael, he put me in that show that he did out in some college... it was about language and then he sent me his book which was just excellent. Yeah yeah. Its, uh, I forget what its called now I have it at home and I have it I I think its terrific. And we were corresponding for a while then we sort of lost touch I dont know what Michaels up to these days. Whats he whats he doing? I mean hes an artist as well? He sounds like an interesting guy. Uh huh. He wrote a nice essay he put together a really nice show somewhere out in California a few years ago and, uh, yeah so. Yeah, oh yeah, really. Tell Douglas you sent me hes hes a great guy to know. Hes the boyfriend of Howard Fox, right. I mean theyre, you know, hes great I mean I I dont know Howard at all. Yeah, well Douglas is not a jerk and hes nice. Maybe I dont know what ________________ he is. I know Douglas well enough. Thats a, yeah, thats really obscure shit. My life has become, you know, strangely involved in very, um, interesting difficult marginal, you know, small audience stuff. Its totally what I love. I have no choice. Ive met some good people, you know, its its kind of nice, it seems OK. Now, um, what time is it? So, are you on the Internet much? You dont have you have...? Yeah. Yeah. No.

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Your work would great, though, on the web. I Im yeah, no, Im actually running a visual poetry site and, um, geez, why dont I just can I scan some of the photos that youve given me a while back we were gonna do that thing with Lois that never worked out? Can I just scan some of those and put them up? Yeah? You wouldnt mind? Oh, that would be great. I could, like, choose 4 or 5 of them? Why, yeah, Id like to do that. Yeah I have this this site, aw they give us some they give us some space at the radio station to have, you know, a homepage and well I have all my friends and some people that I dont know on this visual poetry site. Yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean, its a bit of a pain in the ass, I mean I just kind of a little time consuming and I get a lot of garbage that I dont care for. Yeah, then you have to go then you have to go in. Yeah. Yeah, it is time consuming. Ha ha ha. Well, Ill email you it. You gave me it on the on the card on the letter its something... at AOL. Wheres she? What ever happened to her? It seems like you could do all you could do all your work on the computer now, I mean, with what you know. Shes bizarre. She was in New York for a while running a gallery. It did pretty well for a while and then faded. I dont know what happened to her. Hows that book that you I was just looking at your book, um, yesterday actually. It was a little it was a little what was it 4 by 4 or something? Yeah yeah I like that. Yeah yeah no, listen, I mean its just a small, I mean, youve been working on the screen enough with your job stuff that its just a small leap, you know, to understanding how a web page works or a, uh, you know, reading screen to screen, you know, its just a matter of learning the vocabulary something that youre familiar with obviously youre producing these really high quality books. You wanna do this stuff yourself you gotta I guess you got to get yourself a Power Mac and a scanner. You have get another, right, you

have to get Netscape and everything. Is that big in L.A. the web? Its like T.V., its like gonna come T.V. soon, you know, its weird. Its like, OK, its do it yourself T.V. I think sort of. OK. Uh, Cheryl and I are going to do a performance in a gallery in Athens in Greece and were going were going in the middle of May to do that and were spending Memorial Day Weekend with her family in Las Vegas. It will be sort of weird. Well, its sort of a family were going to go from like the Acropolis to Caesars Palace in... And then, uh, shes got some connections in France so I think the for July and August were going to go to Beaujolais and live in a chteau of, uh, kind of a place for artists to go and Im just gonna write out there. So, yeah, I havent traveled at all but it looks like were gonna be doing a bit of traveling in the next few months glad to get out of New York for the summer, yeah. Whos that? Something. Oh, wow, youre gonna go to Banff? A residency? Ive done that. Cheryl and I did that in the summer of 85. We were there for 3 months. How long would you go for? What is that, I mean, what do you do? I mean is it like there right now? They pay for you to go and all that? Yeah, we got to go for free. Im glad theyre still doing that, yeah, it was good. It was a great deal. Yeah, you meet good people. People we met there we still know its a long, its 11 years ago already. Oh, its a trip man, youll love it, youll really love it. Definitely do it. Well, youll see. Its great. Its great. No, its incredible. We were there in the summer, you know, it was amazing I mean fucking amazing, totally. That was really neat. So, that sounds great it sounds really good. Banff is fun. Oh yeah? Yeah. In a funny way, yeah. Yeah, you know who is involved in new media is Stacy. Sapple. Stacy Sapple? Yeah, right right. Shes really nice. Yeah, shes got a Internet or CD-ROM or some sort of new media company going. Shes around, shes really sweet. Oh,

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yeah, shes working for an art space. Shes like an artists soft, OK, shes making software for artists to keep track of where all there shit is around the world. Like inventory software for artists. Yeah, shes really nice. I see her around all the time. Hows Richard? You dont see him? Is that right? Does he still have a gallery? What do mean you dont talk? Why dont you guys talk? You had a falling out? Well, over what? Oh, from the gallery? From his own gallery? And he didnt pay you? Why dont you ask him whats going on? He sounds like hes not very happy I mean whats the whats the problem? And he never responded? Well, why why is he so unhappy with himself? This is obviously not about you. So whats the whats problem? Why is Richard so unhappy that he cant act like an adult? I mean that sounds really crazy. People seem to be so wild but no. You guys go way back. You think his is his gallery not doing well or something? Its safe. Yeah. Its bizarre. He is so weird. I liked him but he was nuts he was nuts and what about, um? No, we havent seen him in a really long time his boyfriend had AIDS, Frank. Uh, he went to Europe to die, I guess. Yeah, his wife lives in France they have good health care but its, you know, its really sad. I mean, I in the back long ago. I havent heard from Rachel in years. I dont know where she is. Hows she doing? She isnt really a presence in New York anymore. What? Yeah yeah. Its sad. _____________ ah, but its weird I was just saying to Cheryl because Gary was one thing I always loved about him was that he would talk about how important for an artist to to grow and never get caught in that rut and it looks like hes really caught in his rut and, you know, hes always been a really good artist but its sort of sad to see him trapped by his by his own sort of art world sense of success, you know, so Im sorry hes not pushing it hes not pushing his work any further but no I dont see him. But Rachel so is

like she hanging out with she was with that guy. A new one? I remember she was here a few years ago with this guy who seemed pretty nice. This guy from Connecticut or something. I summon all those people now its just unhealthy man its just way too much drinking going on with that group really fucking killing themselves. Keith and Rachel thats their scene was way too self-destructive, you know, it really it really, uh, that was going down the tubes, man. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons we kind of Cheryl and I kind of pulled away from scenes because it was just too it was way nihilistic and we were just not there. Were like really stable, were really married, you know, and its, you know. Yeah yeah yeah. We do do what we need to do but I mean, were really not party. You know, were just working, were just working. One thing about writing is that you know you dont really work for anything. You just continue to work. You know, you dont with art with art it was like you always kinda like always had these really weird deadlines for shows and, eh, this is for me writing is is like is just part of my life, something I just do like I do anything else, you know, I used to do that with art but its different in that theres no real goal, you know, you finish a book publish it, whatever. Its a really a really different pace, I like it, I really like it. I like that its not tied to the, uh, economic structure of the art world. No, I mean Im working, you know, Cheryl and I just work. I do computer stuff, I do Internet. Uh, no more of that thing I do some Internet stuff, yeah, which I dont mind, you know, I mean certainly you cant, yeah, I like that show, yeah, you cant you cant, uh, you know you cant like like art when I was an artist I could hang in my studio, you know, for 10 hours, you know, just coloring in coloring in letters or carving letters or, you know, and and and now I, you know, you cant certainly I cant write for 8 hours at a stretch. Its really quite nice. You

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cant you cant do computer. I can work on the computer for days, I mean, I really love the computer. Yeah. She has had a hell of a time finding a teaching job its been really, unfortunately, because last year she went away to Tennessee to Knoxville shes thats been her resume on it. Theres no jobs. Theres just no jobs. Shes a really good teacher and shes subbed all over and she cannot get herself a job teaching. Its really a... Yeah. Yeah she yeah, right, a lot of people teach out there but here its really really hard I mean shes been doing some art lecture gigs, you know, going around doing some lectures on her work which is good. But, shes been doing computer stuff also, I mean, like Quark, so... so anyway I started I started by saying that were not, like, oh considering what were doing were not, like, hanging out on any major scenes or partying. Were just working. Pretty good. So listen, I gotta get back. Ive got Ive got a workout at 6 and actually my computer is in the shop Ive got to go pick it up before and, uh, and so... yeah, Ill put that stuff on the web on the web page for you and when you get on a graphic browser, I mean, I make the pages so they load really quickly, um, so, uh, you know, Ill let you know Ill get to it next week. Yeah, youd like youd enjoy some of the other work on this site on the visual poetry site. Yeah, no. Yeah. I scan scan something for the net its got to be saved as a, uh, gif or jpg. Or its a compression format that makes the pictures really really small but, you know, if you send me a raw Photoshop documents those are usually pretty big and theyll take forever to mail so youve got to stuff something down so lets lets but one thing at a time. Yeah yeah. Alright. Where are you headed now? Alright. Right. Its New York. Youre heading out this way. Alright. Good to see ya. Good to see you and lets well be in touch over the email and the yeah yeah. Ill do the. Im around, Im here. Im not a great

correspondent but I Im always glad to see ya. Oh, believe me, believe me, Ill get you a copy. Ay, you know, whats it gonna be about 15 bucks? I love this, you know, I love this because its like art, you know, its art like 15,000 dollars, hey, this book is like 15, 15 bucks. Believe me, ay. Ay, youll see it. 15 bucks, huh? OK, Jod, see ya! Thats it Bets. Ay, is that done? I know I know all you do is think about me, thats all. Is that done? Id like to make an appointment to bring it in. Im not gonna be at work on Wednesday so if I can bring it in Tuesday before before I leave about this time Tuesday so you guys hold it all day Wednesday and do what needs to be done without any problems? OK. Yeah. OK and that might be. You know what happens on the net I get I go down I cant get back on the web. I hope 1 1 fixes that. Youve heard this problem before. Hey Matt, can I bring can I make an appointment to bring this thing in Wednesday? Uh, just to replace a SIMM and to put Open Transport 1 1 on it. Um, I can drop if off Tuesday night. Wednesday Im out of the office. Thats great. I Ill be back to pick it up about 3:00 Wednesday. OK appreciate it. OK, will do then. Do you like it? Babette. Hey, how you doing? No go on this machine. Yeah. 7 5 2. works well for me. I mean, it really seems to be stable on my machine. You know, I remember this, you know. So, you know, you got a point. When is 8 coming out? Yeah. I guess Ill if I can just get Open Transport 1 1 which I cant get on the web because its part of system 7 5 3. So, all I want is that small bit installed and Ill be fine. Thatll 1 1. will work with 7 5 2, wont it? Yeah. Yes it will. I appreciate your time yesterday, that was really nice of you. This is what I brought down. Right. Yeah, it starts but youve got to know the trick. You remember the problem with my wifes computer? Have them put Apple memory in this thing. Last time we put third party software, uh, memory in this. We should

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know always to put that Apple in. OK. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Oh. Listen, have a great weekend. Ill see you Tuesday night and Mary Ann, thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks a lot. See you later. Thanks a lot. Bye Pamela. Thank you Pamela. Hi is can I speak to Mary Ann please? Its Ken Goldsmith, thanks. Hi, is Mary Ann there? No. OK, uh, I just had my computer down there. I had the Power Mac 8500 and it it it wont start at all, um... anyway, it wont start at all and all that was done was a memory module was removed and replaced and put right back. I mean nothing was altered. Im just a little bit stuck here. Im not sure what to do. Im upstairs. Yeah, just carried it up the elevator. Im in 702. Yeah, theres just its like like dead. Its like, naw. I mean it was weird cause like you guys just had it down there and it was it working. I mean, its the same old the same old configuration as I Ive used for years and its worked fine. Uh, its just like the machines not responding. Uh, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no I I right no no its never started up from the keyboard anyway Im Im pressing the button from the bottom of the machine. Yeah it does on my machine it it never starts otherwise. M M Mary Ann has been is familiar with the problem eccentricities of this machine. So, I dont know what else what else could be the problem. Uh, I I unless Im overlooking something really simple. Yeah. Can can somebody just just jump up quickly, uh? Either that or Ive just I am not doing something right but I cant imagine that. Yeah, well at least somebody would have an idea of whats happening, I mean were basically nothing was done to the machine today. It was supposed to have all the stuff done to it we did nothing. It should be doing exactly what it did this morning which was at least start up and and run, which it isnt doing right now. If somebody could just just come up and quickly look at

that. OK, Im in 702. I appreciate it. Thanks. So, whats new? Did you just go all the way to Connecticut? What happened this just happened last night not even. Its not even doing what it was not working to do before. Cmon Bets, come. Boy. You know what happened. Oh, no no no no but why its not even turning on now? Yeah, he put the memory back in. Oh, why? I cant be used at all. Oh, but it worked. It was bad but it had been work, you know, this machine has been working for me essentially well. Yeah, and you guys found that it was like the third party memory. Dont we always seem to get together late on Friday afternoons? It it it was a repeat of, like, 4 months ago. The machine has been working really decently I just had this crazy idea in mind to get that 7 point 3 put in today. Do you have any replacement memory? Do you guys have any temporary memory that you could loan me so I could use the damn machine this weekend? I mean my idea Mary Ann put it in so I could I could get, uh, so I could use this thing. Whats the extension? Its Ken, Chris asked me to give you a ring. Hold on a sec. You guys dont have any? Oh, no, so I cant use this machine at all this weekend. Thats not working because Chris is up here its not working at all, its not even turning on which is, at least this morning it was turning on even though the memory was bad. Thats not what I brought it in for. Yeah no I understand that. If theres nothing lying around from another machine that I could borrow for the weekend so I could work? Shit. Might might as well just bring the thing down since its of no use for me here. He cant even turn the thing on. What am I gonna do? I mean. Uh, alright Ill Ill talk about it with Chris. Shit, man, why isnt it doing at least what it did this morning? Alright, well, what the fuck? I mean, its of good no use to me now, right? Can we can I boot it up? I mean its not even booting up right now. Um, what will that

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what will that do, uh, can I work, can I at least temporarily run applications and do what I was doing with the virtual memory? Oh, well, alright I just need a quick, you know, something so I could keep keep trying to pay my bills. Alright. I thought youd have some... I understand that you guys were able to, uh, switch memories with other machines and stuff and find out that this was just a bad piece. So Dannys not with you guys anymore, huh? Daniel? So what do you think I had too much strange little software on there to throw 7 point 3 on 7 5 3? Right, well thats yeah. I mean what... yeah. I was just using the sort of native Power PC stuff it would be fine. You understand this stuff. For you, yeah yeah. What was it I mean I the big applications on my machine are all native software. Anything come to mind Ill... Yeah. Right. Yeah. Huh. Huh. What else didnt you recognize? Im curious? Can you recall? Hold on hold on hold dont go away! Did isnt that interesting that its actually starting up thats the first time it ever started the way its supposed to. Right. I have a question though so so without with a virtual memory on and without a SIMM what shouldnt I be doing, oh, look at that it just oh, thats the timing thing again. Yeah. Yeah. See look at its not odd that it stops and starts thats not, is that right? OK. What what what what is the bag? Speed Doubler speed copy? Put that, what is it? I have the latest versions of Speed Doubler. Thats thats thats from the Zip it was just installed with the Zip software it was the backup. Mac IPX that came with the that came with the, uh, uh, MacLink. Thats MacLink stuff. Thats translation software. Uh, it just, I. I dont have Conflict Catcher. I think I might have downloaded a demo version. I have I have, uh, I have the latest version of this stuff. Just throw them on my desktop for a moment, would you? Its the newer one 1 0 4? Not. What is IPX? Its translation stuff. You dont it didnt

come with MacLink Plus? Im sure, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you just go to the apple menu and pull down about this Macintosh? We went from we went from, right, I was like up up at 40 right I had 8 more megs I had 24 and now its down to but everythings gonna run OK until we can get the new new software. OK, thats great. Oh, and they didnt know that it would still run even if we took the goddamned thing out. Now if I shut this thing down, right? I can just re this will always start with this thing, right? Alright, so listen, Im gonna drop this. I know youre not bad. Youre really great. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, listen, Im gonna drop this thing down this time of the night like Tuesday cause Im out of the office on Wednesday. Mucho appreciated. Have a good weekend, man. Ill see you. Alright? Im here how you doing? Yeah, what did you get? Im glad you got something for her. Where are you gonna get the picture from of us? Yeah, I think it sounds good. Where have you been all day, babe? Hows it going over there? Thats pretty, yeah, its really pretty. Right, oh no, thats beautiful. Thats perfect. How much was it? Ha ha, you cant beat that, huh? Its really nice. What are you up to? So, what happening any any news at the show? Where are we gonna go? OK, they like it? What whats happening. See I I cant, Cheryl, I cant get your. I cant get your piece. I mean I have, aw fuck me man! This is killing me. No, somehow its not not Java enabled. Ah, its really beat. Fuck, man. Im having all sorts of problems today I had the hell day with the computer. You know, Im trying Im trying, yeah, yeah, I just, yeah, it was just a nightmare so. Its weird I cant I just cant seem to get your the the Mac, you know, thing going. Im sorry. I want so badly to play with it, you know? Its funny, isnt it? Yeah, I know that but, you know. What? I dont know. Im gonna hang out tonight I got Ive got to work on, uh, Sallys thing. Sally Silvers. Um, Im

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sorry Im just trying Im trying to get get things so that, you know, I can no see see everything Im disappointed. Im really just dying. Look at this. See if I go back this is where I got to the other day before the damn thing crashed in my cache. Now it now it wont go anywhere. Thats great. Excellent. Alright, Im gonna get going. Anyway I, you know, Im gonna get going. Here, Ill walk out with you. Why where wanna lock the animal up? I had the most depressing time with her, oh man, I was just I felt like I was just gonna just gonna fuckin slit my wrists. Shes so depressing. It make me feel bad about my life, you know when youre around someone like that? Oh, you know, this is not working out and she wishes she the only thing she wants is to get one piece in a group show in New York and, oh god, it was just one sob story after another it was terrible, Cheryl, really I had the worst Im just so depressed. Cause I dont know cause she just, you know, shes no good or others are better or, you know, the same old sob story. Just trying to show slides and she wants to show Paul Ha her slides and Paul Ha didnt didnt respond and I mean its just like cut your wrists. Yeah, I like her work. I think her works good, you know, its just her whole, like, thing was just so many and just so groany and oh, Im just so depressed, really. Between that and my mother I feel like Im just about to die. Um, because she she has a show in L.A. and shes like, I dont understand. I show in L.A., you know, its just like the same old fucking many story and, ugh, shes just so ugly I cant look at her. Shes so unattractive! Like shes kind of like an excess of male hormones. Oh, it just depressing Im so depressed. Shes got like facial hair and shes got like like cold sores. Oh, shes hideous and shes like hard looking, I mean she looks like a man! She looks like a mixture of a man and a monkey! Dreadful! Ugh! Im sorry Ive been in a really bit of a bitch-assed mood for

the last, uh, 34 years. How do you like what I said to my mother today I said everything was great until Margie was born. Ugh, my mothers insane! Ugh, I, you know, anyway Im just I have to do Sally Silvers poster and I told her that Id have it done for her by like this weekend and I havent even started cause all I did today was padiddle with my computer I got absolutely nothing accomplished with it, you know, it was just like, you know, all they actually they found out why, you know, you have to push the button 3 times for it not to start. I didnt get Open Transport so I cant look at I cant look at your... yeah, I cant see your piece. Im Mr. Fucking Web, yeah, no this is bad. Maybe at sometime, maybe a year from now everyone will be able to see it. I dont even know where to get the goddamned Java browser. The only Java browser I could find is the one that crashes my machine so I go and I try to get like like all the machine all pumped up so it can see it and of course then they say that system 7 5 3 is no good on your machine so I said well all I need is Open Transport 1 point 1. Well, we cant do that until we straighten out your memory problem. They give me third party memory it turns out just like your same problem and thats why my machine wouldnt start you had to push the button 3 times to get it to go. So, in other words, Im back to where I started now Im running with 8 megs less of memory less of RAM than I was this morning and nothings changed. They didnt put Open Transport 1 1 on it cause it was determined that 7 point 5 my system was not 7 5 3 compatible right now theres got to be more fixes, no Cheryl, I dont even know if that one Java browser and all it does is crash the machine so until I get Open Transport 1 1 on my machine which is probably not gonna be until some time next week, I cant look at it and even then it may be iffy. Youre so far, youre so avant-garde. You are so avant-garde

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that that that youre light years ahead of everyone out there. I dont know if thats such a good thing. Come, lets go. I I wanna blow some steam off and kick some ass. No, I yeah, I wonder Id like to call John I got his address Id like to ask him what browser hes using. Netscape 2 0 1 does not come with Java browser. I cant get the Java to go on it at all so its really frustrating. I mean this will all work out, you know, but I mean Im basically basically this is a typical cyber day where where you scramble and scramble and at the end of the day youve got, like, nothing to show for it. Nothing has been accomplished here. Just a lot of frustration and anxiety. Ha, once you start talking about it it becomes like like a like a like alcoholics confessional and everybody still everybody starts to, you know, like say what trouble theyre having too, you know, like nobody wants to talk about it until, oh. In the meantime Jon Gams never called, never heard from the man. He says to me until, oh thats right we gotta call her, uh, what could we give her? They never buy us a present, so. Yeah, no, we should just call her tonight and say happy birthday. Im gonna go to depressing aikido. Im gonna slit my wrists after this day, babe. After my mother, Jody and aikido Im going Im headed to the grave. Yeah, I got that on tape, pal. OK, goodbye. Ill see you Ill be home probably around 11 or something Ill just see you later. Have fun at Richards. See ya. Yeah, I need some time, OK? Not again. Signing off, goodnight now. Oh god. Fat boy Kenny G was. How you doing? Cheryl why didnt you get something newer? So, why dont you just put that one of my grandfather and me in? Yeah. Oh, man, I was so fat, wasnt I? Cheryl, put those old old pictures away those are those are depressing. How about just this one? This this e e thought its nice to have just one of both of us but. Thats a good idea. Thats a good idea. Hi, did you go to Richards? And then what did you do? I gotta

have a little food. I havent eaten I just. OK, good. Yeah, you can actually write a little something there. Thats funny we dont we used to take a lot of pictures we just dont anymore. Oh boy, alright. Alright. Alright. Howdja do at Richards? What hap what was depressing the scene or the work or both? Well, tell. How were the paintings? Thats such a Suzanne Joelson comment, Cheryl. You just struck me as Suzanne. Yeah, right like more of that what I saw, right. Yeah. Yeah so theyre really all and enormous sized? And was the response good? Oh, thats good, thats really funny. Thats a nice frame, man, it really is pretty. Right. Right. Oh, I hate them. I cant stand them. Like I like I always say wheres the artist? Wheres Richard there? I mean, its a pose, its just such a pose that I just theres nobody there. For some facility. You know, we have the Stephen Courbois, you know, whatever style these types decide to paint in they always seem to be able to do it however they never bother to ask what what what is it thats being done? Right? Yeah, well it couldnt be more opposite of what you do, huh? Yeah. Yeah. That looks great Cheryl! Ha ha, its very abstract. Stop it through the top. And who was there? Why does that strike us as so funny? It really does. So, we have the same identical sense of humor, its so funny. We both think its funny, dont we? Shes not gonna be able to make out what it is at first. It looks very abstract. Oh, thats really funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, its its really. What the fuck do I want that book for? That piece of shit. It would make a nice greeting card for my grandmother but it aint art, you know. Cheryl, we have the same humor. Yeah, so who all was there tell me. Now why was Jerry and Roberta there remember she was just just hating those paintings. Why I mean I understand it but. What thing? Oh, he was there? Oh, did he say you did a good job, though? Oh, well, I never even realized he was there. Was he

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nice? Was Jerry nice to you? Right? Thats thats my reading of it. Huh? Yeah, theyre good. Theyre very sweet. So who all was there, who else? Alix? Like Kevin? Does she look fat too? Oh Carl looks really bad. I saw him at Andreas thing. Yeah. You see Andrea? Yeah, Grahams a good guy. Who say he was gay? Remember someone had just been to his studio. Was it Andrea? She thought, in the end, he was gay? Hello Kenny. So what did the Yalie crowd say to you? They didnt talk with you? Hes all talk and no action. What ever happened to his big school? Hes an asshole. You know, for years. I dont like him. Bullshit. Yeah. Hes a flatterer. Flattery doesnt get you something. Well maybe well see. Maybe theyll want her. Maybe not. Who else did you talk to? Same weirdness, huh? Well what I get a sense from Richard, and its sort of sad, hold on. I get a sense like this. Well, back when we first me him, although the work that he was doing wasnt deeply content it had some sort of a sense of avant about it in some way, you know? There was something he was pushing for. He didnt know what it was but, you know, those works, while they might have, you know, they were what they were but at least they had a sense of trying to do something new. Then Richard kind of goes into this long decline as he begins drinking, um, he tries to go for content thats not really his, this kind of heavy metal stuff and theyre not successful, you know, and he sort of just slides away, you know, and I think a lot of that is career and drink. You know, and then he kind of picks stays out of things and picks himself back up and kind of like a in some weird security blanket, the kind of card that Richard always held was that he was an amazing painter, like the portraits of the junkie and stuff. Um, he wanted so bad to be loved and to be respectable that he played that card which he had which is essentially the same card he had in high school, you know?

And in a sense, hes not really doing a whole lot different that he was doing when he was painting the junkie. Remember the model who was a junkie? Yeah. And so, hes kind of back where he was in high school or just going into Yale and he gets lauded for what you do in high school. But, you know, the sense of anything is just gone. Its very sad. Its like. I forgot about that whole body which I dismissed. That was bad, yeah. No I mean I think originally there was something going on there but hes so confused, so scared. Yeah. Yeah, its a its a play for respectability and he wants to be loved. Thats not a good thing to be when youre an artist. Yeah. Was Kevin Landers there? I just worked on Sallys poster. It was nice to just work, turn it off. Just do some sort of dumb work. Yeah I just needed to just sit down put the radio on and. Is there a mouse in the trap under there? Yeah, um, lets look for another set. Not till late. Its going to be a long concert. I would say it would be over about 6. Wasnt the Berio almost that long? I think its gonna be like a big a big long show. You dont have to stay for it all. Do you, well, do you why dont you just skip Vedanta and go over there? Just go go I dont know. Sometimes you have to what you have to do. Anyway, its up to you. Think tomorrows gonna what time are we eating with those guys? No no what time are we eating with Stefano? Yeah, somebody should make a reservation, though. You know that place is not easy to get into. Why dont we call now. No, well just make a reservation. Hes got openings, why dont we say, like, 9:30? The openings dont finish until about 8:30 really by the time he can get himself over there. No, I think thats fine. Lets say hes got a bunch of openings to go to that means, you know, how many times have you been in the gallery you finally leave the gallery about 8:30 8:55 the last opening that youre at am I right? Well, ew, you someones not in a great

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mood. You alright? It is. Hi can I make a reservation for tomorrow night? 4, 4 people. OK, thanks. They dont take reservations for parties under 6. Its probably gonna be packed at 9. Huh? How you doing, baby? Yeah. What about me? Ah, you know what? I didnt go to aikido. I was too depressed. I slept. When youre depressed you have to sleep. Really? What was the most depressing part of it? What? Like why? Why did you feel compelled to go? Yeah. No, but I think the real question ends up being the real question seems to me to be why why, you know, why do you think hes a friend? Why did you feel compelled to be there, you know? Im not being critical of you, but... Im sitting here trying to be critical dont put these in the fridge they get hard. Theyre very good when theyre when theyre fresh. Um, you know, I think its a good, you know, its a good time to if something makes you feel this way, you know, maybe you dont go back for more. I mean, thats kind of like why I stayed away. Youre very pretty. You are very pretty. Did anybody tell you how pretty you look tonight at the opening? Why? They make nice cocktail lounge. Yeah, Hollywood, hey, maybe theyre the ones thatll buy that crap. Was Gavin there and was he thats the guy that chased her. Yeah, Alix told me. Thats the guy thats been trailing her ass for 5 years. He wants to have an affair with her. He offered to have an affair with her that night. I mean, utterly ugly way. Id like to, yeah. He proposed that they have one. She couldnt deal with it. She was flattered, she wanted to. Shes so insecure. Yeah, but its very hard to resist an offer like that. I think shes entertaining it. From Alix the other night at dinner after... Yeah. Monday Monday. No, but I have to be honest with you. I have to be honest with you. It hadnt it hadnt even crossed my mind ever since then, not once. Not once until you mentioned his name. Well, I dont think about

Andreas affairs. I dont give a fuck really. I know, it didnt even cross my mind. I cant I dont think about these things. My mind is preoccupied with loftier thoughts. Like my dog and how much I love her. And how much everybody loves her. Everyone loves this thing. I love the picture to grandma. Wish she could come. I love this heavenly hands, yeah. Gee heaven, mom and dad. Look at the monkey nose. This is such a good. She was cute today in your studio when we were reading and we told her to lay down and then like she understands English, look at her now. I am in heaven. I am in heaven. Oh, Im in heaven right now. So, were there any calls? Ah, good good. Good good. I feel I feel better. Theyre nice, theyre so nice. I did a this poster Im doing for Sally is just, Im actually doing a straight poster. I thought I was going to do an art poster, like shitting men and everything? Im just doing like a poster design I. I had and if had and thought and realized I was gonna do that I I would have given it to you. I didnt know, you know, until I sat down I just didnt feel like dragging out all those Jewish stars and shitting men. I, it just didnt seem appropriate. Uh, no I dont think so. No, its a nice design. Its like based on its like based on a Viennese poster, you know, like Viennese Modernist poster. Yeah, oh I have a question for you. I have a Quark question that you can answer. When when you bring in a TIFF from Photoshop, and bring it into Quark and you print it out, just just out of your regular old printer, you know it looks really jaggedy and shitty? But when you really bring the file the the Quark the real file to an output place it it comes out looking like the Photoshop thing. Is that right? Or is it always gonna look dithery and shitty and. So what what what so how do you bring it in so its not dithery and horrible? Oh, I know what you didnt bring the file in with you. You brought the Photoshop file? Oh, TIFF is a

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ghost image of, its a ghost reading of thats why its so small it takes so little memory. Its a ghost reading of a very big file. If you dont bring that in youre just gonna get TIFF but if you bring in the full file, I think, youre gonna get full resolution. Yeah. So, I like scanned this Viennese poster and then just altered it and then, it looks pretty good. The poster kinda looks like Sally. No, you didnt bring the actual file, you just brought the. How about I join you in bed? What do ya how about a little activity? Can I? Why? I thought it was O.K. to kill myself un unless I fucked you first. Can I put my finger in your ass? All the way up? Why? Thats on tape. Just to spice the tape a little bit, right? I said that just to spice up the tape. I love you hoo ha? Ew, its not my fault that your in in in such a bad mood. Really? Really stop or, yeah? You actually your bodys so good now. No, really, youre so thin and so good. Strong, muscular, and pretty. And soft and smooth. Mmmmm, Im getting a lick. Im gonna get its even more soundtrack to Head. OK, alright, Ill turn it off. OK. Ill turn it off. Ill turn it off. I cant turn it off. We already had had one! Of me! Getting blown! That was all on tape. Sure it was. I started the tape first thing in the morning. So its all so its all. No, its over and Ill tell you another thing, theres no part of you thats on this tape. Your voice or your actions or nothing will appear. Its all me. Oh, big deal! Its something that I never heard before! Its noises that Ive never heard from you before! No I dont! No I dont! You too. You too. Yeah, all. Its a good thing I get my way. You love your pussy licked and its a good thing that you get your way cause you get your pussy licked. I get my. You get your pussy licked. Im not saying anything that I dont normally not say. Why? Oh, well be on the tape. I cant turn the tape off. But youre probably not gonna get anything cause theres no language. The tape will shut off if theres

no language. I have it programmed, I mean, it was slurping. It wont catch you. I mean, why? Come on, this is art! I mean, look at what I do for your art! Look what I do for your art! Look what I do for your art! Look what you do for your you get naked in front of audience of thousands and youre crawling around and you can see your pussy and here she says I dont want to be on the tape. Its so contradictory! And its O.K. for your art but its not O.K. for my art! And I in in in the one with The Bordems and your crawling under the plastic you can see your vagina! And yet... you can see the whole pussy. Of course you can when youre crawling around but do I ever say anything? No. Its for your art. And so this art is like our life and then youre saying no, we cant have it. Oh, its only special when its like like art and when its like life you cant have it. I get it. No, Im making the most ridiculous argument because youre because youre like giving me a hard time about my art project. Why dont you say that instead of saying I dont want that on the tape?! I mean, is that a joke? These tapes, nobody will ever hear these tapes, Cheryl. How can you say youre self conscious when youre like the nude the nude artist of the century? Its pretty close. And Head? So, this is simulated to. Its its mediated by the tape medium. I cant believe... look, if we had no language. I will, if theres no language. No. Theres no language. I want to give you a demonstration. Watch this red light. See Im talking now? Now Im talking? See? Its like magic. And you have the highest voice of anyone. I dont. Speak. Do you have the highest voice ever? Call me Harpo. Im gonna go clean up. Good night. No, fuck it. I hate sex. Especially with you. Go to bed.

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do you like the CD? I gotta really listen to it. Yeah, I mean, people at the station just went apeshit for it. Sure sure, is another one there? I havent seen it. You think I can almost think about throwing these out? No, theyre just shot. Really. You dont know where that bag went? All right. Well just use a regular bag. Well just go buy another. Im gonna drop you downstairs and youre gonna be living there for a whole week. Oh, look at the sweet one. Do you have a shoehorn? A what? Whats a shoehorn? What? Whats a shoehorn? Huh? So I like my mothers stories about Max throwing tantrums. That was funny. Hey, maybe we can go, oh, you know what we should do when were out on the Island today? After the festivities are winding down? Take my parents car and try to find some yard sales. I mean its a beautiful like the first nice spring weekend theres gonna be a million yard tag sales going on in Port Washington. What do you say? What do you say? Yeah. We have to make a 10:20 train, yeah. Arent they nice? I think theyre very hip, dont you? Theyre sort of square? And the real thing about them is theyre already they feel already like bedroom slippers. You know, these are gonna become, you know, everyday shoes. My mother has Band Aids, theyre not a rare commodity. Good. He was a funny old man. I liked him. He was a funny old guy. Look at look at this book likes a, I mean, and also like, I dont know. Bad title looks like a wedding, yeah right, as if it would be ironical if she was a ghetto girl or something but, you know, like probably I know. Yeah, its really weird. I saw Robert Morgan on the street yesterday and reminded him about your subbing he says, oh I have her down in my book. No, it was like in June. OK, you do that. Im gonna take out the dog. Im gonna drop her downstairs. Stamps and train schedules. Lets walk from to my mothers house. Cheryl, stamps. No, Im just remember the designations? Port

No. Im not mad. We were just playing. Yeah. It was a joke. It was a joke. The recorder will stay on this art week. What? No. Just one week. Oh, is it time already for another laundry? Oh, we can take it over. Its no big deal. Remember the time we buried the dog in the laundry? Wasnt that cute? This might be the last wash for the winter. Sorry. Cause were the same people. We, cause, were the same person. Im the secretary. Im the secretary. Of course I did. Thats why I said it but I cant say everything that I know were thinking cause well repeat everything. Oh, that would be a relief. Yeah, if you were if you were taping youd have 5 times as many tapes as me. I have very few tapes from this week. No, its much better that it was. Its way better. Yeah. I dont mind, you know, its just an industrial noise right now its just it used to sort of scream and whine and, you know, no, its a lot better. Shirts. Cheryl, what what is this thing and why is it always blocking my closet for all week long? Can you put them in front of your closet? I mean, I dont really care that theyre out I just I cant get to my stuff. Put em over there. I think they do a nice job a the at our dry cleaner. Look at how nice this shirt is. They do a good job, dont they? Did you ever get paid from Yale? Did you ever get paid from whats her name, Ardele? What? They cant pay you? This is a different strike? This is a different strike than Kathys thing? Oy vey. This boy is wired. Look at me, you can never even tell its a mic. This boy is wired. Oh, you should tell Steven, by the way, also that the FMU I gotta get him one of the playlists and he was on the top the playlist officially came out and he was like one of the very top playlist. I gotta give him an official thing, yeah. He did really well at FMU. Its unbelievable. Its yeah. Well,

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Washington. Yeah, its a 10:20. Thats what we gotta make. So that means weve got to leave here at about 9:45. No, they have a kid theyre up. And so we got about 45 minutes before we gotta go. And John and Karin. Ay, ay! Ay ay ay ay ay! Coming down for a week. Shes coming down for a week. When you leaving? OK, we got them under control. Um, were gonna go out to the Island. Im gonna drop her today. We we you just running around getting ready today? Ah! Great great great wow. You must be excited. Great. Wheres Diane? Go on Bets. Go get Baron. Lets go get Baron. OK, Ill see you in a little bit. Cmon, wheres Baron? OK. Wheres Baron. Cmon. Cmon, where is he? Wheres your friend? Wheres your friend? Wheres Baron? 7 years. Yeah, theyre nice dogs. Alright, you got it? Take care of yourself. Thank you. You dont have to. Its just a little taste. Not too much. Look at this. Look look at how attentive this dog is. Thats it. Thats all. What have you got? What have you got there? You eat vegetables? Wheres the meat? Wheres the beef? You just you will eat a lettuce and tom... yeah. Yeah. Nice to... All right, thats it Babette. No more for you. No no no, cmon thats it for you. This is ones a little, you know, they get greedy these animals. Thats it. Thats it, pal. All right, enjoy this day. We finally got a good one, right? Ill see you around, OK? Yeah, I live on Thompson. This way. Yeah. Ive been there about 5 years. No no. Thats it. Look look at this. Gotta drag her away. Bets come. Diane. Bets you gonna make? You gotta make? Ay Diane! Ahhh! All right youll see each other all week now. Oh my god. Hi Ginny. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah great. So I can go down from like 9 to... oh. Bitch. Bets you gotta make, honey? You got to make? She hasnt taken a shit yet. Bets, go make. Make. My grandmothers 85th birthday or something. Gotta go out to the Island Im a little... Dont worry about it. You dont have to

worry about it. Yeah, well talk before you go. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah they open the window theyre not getting in through the gate. The what? OK, cmon guys. Yeah also nobodys coming in that apartment with these three. I dont think you gotta really worry. All right, Ill talk to you tonight before you go. Oh, oh. All right. All right. Dont you worry. Theyre in good hands all week. Theyre fine. Thats good that they can go down early so I can let them down to pee. Thats great. That really makes a difference. Thats great. Tell her its just gonna be for one week, you know. Cmon. You know what I want you to do? Would you do me a favor and get a load of paper towels up there? Just in case, you know, I gotta clean stuff up. You know what? I forgot my keys. Im glad I saw you. OK Bets, go get them! Boy oh boy. Theyre so happy to see each other. Go get em Bets! You wanna help me bring some towels up or you dont have the keys. I want you to do that cause and, uh, thats it. All right. We got food and everything? Why? What happens? Go on. OK. Its the same as usual. You guys go and have a good time. Everything is taken care of. No problem, OK? OK, Ill talk to you later. I got to run out to L.I. and then I and then Ill be back. OK. See, oh here. No, OK great. See you in a little bit. Cheryl its me. Cheryl its me. Sure, Id love to see the baby. Tell her well take the son to a crazy ethnic restaurant. Lets take the son to a crazy ethnic restaurant. You got on toast yet later? Thats lovely. We will look at it. Cher, we gotta get goin really so. OK. OK, cause we also have to, uh, we also have to bring the laundry over. So lets get going. Im a primativo cruising the net on lynx on a 9600 baud modem. You did you get that? Did you understand that? Im so primitive. What? No, no its I mean, Im, Im gonna be wearing like what Im wearing plus a jacket, thats it. You look pretty let me see those shoes. Turn around. Oh, you look lovely. So

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pretty, mmmm. Yeah. Oh lets get going. I dont wanna miss the train. Bring your cash. Yeah, no reports. Lets go. Bring your cash. Ha. You didnt have any breakfast. You had no breakfast. So, well soon well be able to share my shoes. Hows this jacket? You remember this one? You dont like it. Cause you always said it was too old. Yeah, I used to wear it all the time. You dont remember. Come we gotta bring the laundry. There you go ladybug. OK. Lets do it. OK. Hi. How you doin? Pretty good. Oh, all right. OK thanks. See you later. Here. Hi. Thats really expensive. Its almost 30 dollars for that laundry. What? Lets go over to the A. Uh, I dont know. What if we if we did it on our own, what would it run? You think so? Oh god. Its sort of start thinking about that at some point, you know? Its so much money. Its insane. Thats like, you know, we must do that twice a month. We must spend I think we I think I came up with something like 50 bucks a month on laundry, plus dry cleaning. I dont know, well have to look at our finances, but, it is expensive. Are you understood a 9600 baud modem on lynx? In this day and age? Yeah. 28. Right. Right. Very good. Thats what you had in Tennessee, right? Thats what you had in Tennessee, right. But you knew how to use that in Tennessee didnt you? Did you like it? Yeah, but not anymore really, you know? Yeah. Things arent changing that fast now. I got all these, like, potential for work, you know, I dont I hope some of it comes through. I hope we can get some. No. Im always Im always concerned. Im always concerned. But I think we put a lot of money in the I think we put a steady flow of money in the bank this month. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And weve got more owed. Why not charge them? Why do you eat the cost? And? So you put it out but you get it back. So did you see Elizabeth Fiore at the thing last night? Wheres Alix? And? Was Andrea friendly yesterday at lunch?

You want to walk from the station? Im OK. Right. Ill Ill tell Swami that tomorrow. See what he says. Lets see what Swam lets see what Swami has to say about that. Lets see what Swami has to say. Some people love their dogs more than they love God. So Diane said I could take the dogs down at 9 a.m.. Yeah. Thats gonna be a lot easier. See the poster girl for the Ringling Circus Arianna? She made the Daily News. Is Arianna a fraud? Is Arianna really a man? Oh man. Where are they from? Where are they from? What? Are you excited to see the baby or not really? Really, cause Im getting money today. Are we gonna have fun with Stefano and Janet tonight? Are you excited about that? Yeah. Fruit acid peel. Youre admiring them, huh? Shit. C trains. All the time you go in them you see the bums. All the bums are living in them. The Xenakis show should be really good. Im looking forward to that. What you have to take your work down? What time tomorrow? I thought it was happening early. Whos Brian Tolle? Oh I thought we got a card for a cocktail party? Huh? That was a train of bums, isnt it? Every cars got bums. The bum train. Always is, isnt it? Look at the one on the right. We need to get some tickets. What do you have, the 100 on you? Are you ready to bust it on open? I saw Maya I told you I saw Maya? Yeah. She was really friendly. We had this really long talk. About everything. She was so friendly. I think she like wants to get back into the art world or something. So, cmon, hes got enough crap. He doesnt need, really. Hes got enough crap. I told her oh, congratulations, yeah sure. No. No, its a white guy, Cheryl. Why dont you give me money you go look at the magazines. Wait. Wait wait wait wait wait wait. Look at the way you keep your money, its bizarre. Ill just see you in there, OK? Lets just bust it. See you. Good-bye. How you doing? Two round trips for Port Washington please? Thanks a lot. Ive seen it before. I prob-

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ably should probably get going. Should probably get going? Is that Cristy? Naw. Dopey looking clothes. Cheryl. Look at this breakfast spread. You ready? Want something else? All right. You what? Yeah, just fuck it. You got a 300 dollar gift certificate. Its what? Coming in circles? Oh, wait a minute. We gotta look at what track its on. We gotta look at the board. Track 15. Cheryl gets the comment made about her shoes. Her days made. Cheryl, are you an intellectual? Are you a shoe lover? Its so gross. These trains are so filthy, arent they? Theyre disgusting. Every seat is one seat is more disgusting than the next. Want one? All right George. I got it. I got it George. Do I start to act up on the train? So are you dreading this totally? All right. How is it? Why you laughing at me Oprah? Is it good? Ahhhh. Ahhhh. Ahhhh. Listen, can I incite Max to do some really bad things today? Be a little nicer? Be nice I I know. Im just saying that. Remember when he took that hammer and tried to smash that glass? Wasnt that? That was so funny though when he went and did I wanted to see that thing shatter. I I would have that would have made my day. That would have made my year, man, if Max takes the hammer and bashes Grandmas beautiful chest. Ha ha. He really hit that thing hard, didnt he? Yeah, a big a big slice of it could have just come down and killed him or cut his foot off. That would have been that would have been humorous. I know I. I understood that from the last time that we were there. Im gonna be a lot nicer now. I may whisper a fuck you in his ear or something. To make my sister uptight, of course. I have to use the bathroom, dear. Yes? Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, so whats so whats new? What are you doing? Wanna have sex? Huh? Cmon mama! Lets have sex in the Plandome train bathroom. You didnt even squat. Hows your book? What did you know that Doovie Doovie was a tuba player? You

never knew that about him, did you? So, lets lets uh, take a car later and go look for some yard sales. This thing what it starts at 11 I think itll by one itll be well over. Well take an hour go cruising around go looking for some yard sales and well go back, you know, the days pretty well shot anyway. What are you doing the rest of the day before I mean I wanna go to Charless opening, thats all Im doing. Which opening are you seeing? Ew! Youre gonna go to Thomas Nordanstadts gallery? And so. I think everybody felt that way. I think that its really good if we if as a matter of fact it kind of grew yesterday in its form it kind of, um, you know, its a mixture of of planning and intuition and spontaneity. I mean it just kind of grew differently yesterday, so yeah, I think its very good. I think it would be very beautiful. I think it would be a good I like what happened yesterday I mean its a good I like what happened yesterday with the chapters. What a great way to make a structure. You know you you based on chapter. Its very good. Id like to do more, actually. I feel like Id like I wouldnt mind doing another session because I feel like kind of part way through it we began to get an idea of how rhythms could work, I mean if you painting me from whats the difference with you from a 20 minute chapter to a, uh, 10 minute chapter. Its gonna be a visual equivalent of the amount the formal rendering of of my formal rendering. I think its very good. I think it gonna be really good. Do you? Well, theyve got nothing else to do. Trying to perfect your life. Well, you know, they thought that the grandchildren were gonna be the answer to it all and I guess it wasnt. So theyve got to continue to look for some kind of a solution. It just becomes more and more elaborate. It wont ever stop. Thats thats no, well, well they figure if one wasnt gonna be enough to make them happy theyre gonna try two. Sure. Sure. Its insane, you know, theyre

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gonna do what theyre gonna do but the whole the whole thing is pretty insane. They theyre just looking for happiness and they think that, you know, a new kitchen is gonna make the country house better. Well you know on some level it will but on some real level it wont make any difference at all. You know, as if it wasnt nice enough to start with. I dont know. I dont know. It it seems just like more restlessness. I dont know, no, I dont see it as anything new its like what theyre always doing. You know, but they never seem to get a whole lot happier and... well, yeah, why not, you know, hire some expensive fancy landscaper and see if it makes you any happier. Its a weird idea to me. Well, Cheryl, theres deg theres degrees to everything. Yeah, but each each doesnt stand for different for different person, so, you know, I mean, anyway. I just let them go about doing what they want to do. It just seems it all seems a little bit over the top to me. I know, its all for my father, who doesnt really swim much but he has some kind of idea that it will bring some kind of enlightenment to his life. Well, I dont know, Cheryl, you know, everybody wants to spruce up their lives a little bit and theres nothing wrong with that but the obsession with which my parents go at it is not healthy. Its just all material, you know, its just all material. But theyre gonna do what theyre gonna do so thats what theyre gonna do. No one walks, its not funny at all. Everybodys got a car here. Why should there be sidewalks? I dont know, I dont let it all bother me. I I dont I just I hear it, you know, and I go OK. But I kind of know whats behind it enough, you know? I kinda I kinda get it and, you know, thats what you gonna do thats what youre gonna do. Yeah, the Marty Stern thing Im not really thrilled about. Dr. Mengele. The best piece of art I ever made. Ill never do anything better than that. As a matter of fact, you know its got shit growing on it? What

ever happened to that other thing? I think its in the water. Look, its got grass growing on it. Thats really funny, isnt it? I think that thing that thing went in the water long ago and its gone. There it is! My brilliant career. Ill tell him that now. Here we go. Down into the abyss. Im going down, man, I feel it. Im going down. Cmon. Im going down. Happy Birthday. Happy Birthday. Shes a big sleeper, huh? A little bit, he asked a few questions. What he did yeah, yeah, yes. I think its a really nice piece. Let Dad read it. Can I have a coffee, Ma? Is it ready? This one? Wheres when the rest of the people? No kidding. Im glad you read it and maybe give you an understanding of the book. Explain it. Right. Good good. Sure. Hello sister. Happy Birthday. I thought of you yesterday. Lets wake her up. Look at the, uh, is she dead? Dead baby blues, remember that? Who is that? Yeah. Is she sleeping more than most babies do? Sue who? What Sue? You better change that. Oh boy. Oh boy. You had better change that diaper. Shes tiny. Cheryl Im not going to be doing what Margies doing. This is womans work. When we have a kid you are gonna be I pick up the dog shit. You dont pick the dog shit up. You do not. I do. Always. Have you ever picked up the dog shit? Rarely. Margie, shes so adorable. We love Isabelle. Ma, did you find where you needed to go yesterday? Did you find where you needed to go yesterday? Yeah, did you find your way around? Yeah, especially downtown, its hard. Well, both of them are difficult. The West Village is difficult. So, Im gonna so tomorrow Im gonna find out the name of that restaurant Ill call you cause Im gonna be up there. Oh, map something like that. So, um, is Ellen and Marty coming today? Wheres wheres Max now? Oh, doing what? Wheres Dad? When is he coming back? Yeah Bruce knows it. He has it. No, I dont know much about it. He likes it. Yes. Um, I dont know. He really loves

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opera. He is the man. Hes the opera mensch. No, he just he loves music. Hes a musician also as well as a writer. Yep. What have you got there, chopped liver? Um, look whos here. Oh, he doesnt. Ay, boy. How you doin? Max, are you crying? Is that you? Whos crying? Max, can I open it? OK, you open it now, honey. Max. Cmon Max, lets go say hello. Max, what does the dog say? What does the duck say? What does the lamb say? Youre getting too good at this. Come this way. Come this way. Max, what does the fish say? Max, what does the fish say? No, he just did that. Do it again. Do it again. Were going for a swim, wanna come? We are going to now. Silly Kenny. Silly boy. Come, lets see the water. Max, youre gonna go down. Were not going there. Lets lets were not going in the water. Im I was only joking. I just want to see if you see any fish. Sometimes you see fish. You see little crabs. You know what a crab is? You know what a crab is, Max? You see any fish, honey? If you look close you can sometimes see fish. Isnt that pretty? Do you like the water? Do you see the shells? Do you see those shells? Yeah, those are shells. You see the fish live in them. You wanna you wanna see a living fish? Here, I got one. Hold on. Theres a fish inside this shell. See how its closed? The fish lives in thats the little home of the fish. Inside lives a little fish. OK. OK. Uh, heres the fish house thats gone. Max, have you ever seen a shell before? Where? Indiana. Yeah, do you like fish? Where lets find a horseshell, uh, a horseshoe crab. Theyre always along the beach here. Lets find a horseshoe crab for Max. Where? Lets see it. Sometimes you can find them up here. Were looking for the crab. Max, thats a boat, honey. Thats a boat. Here, lets look for the crab. Crab, oh crab! Maybe theyre maybe theyre down by the water. Look for one for Max. Oh crab! Wheres the crab? Oh crab! Oh crab! Oh crab! Max, honey, the crabs are not here today. Do

you know what a crab is Max? Huh? Max, do you know what a crab is? Have you ever seen a crab? What was it? What is a crab? Whats a crab, Max? Its a water bug. Its a bug. Do you like bugs? Theres usually so many crabs out here but maybe its the season, maybe theyre just not born yet. Max, maybe all the crabs are just babies like Isabelle. Do you think Isabelles a crab? What is Isabelle? Isabelles a baby crab. How would you feel if your sister was a crab? You would like that? Would you youd have to say all your friends this is my sister Isabelle. Shes a crab. Shes not a human. Shes a fish. Max, what do you think? Would you say that to your friends? What do you say to them now? Isabelle, shes a what? A baby, right? Max, do you like the water honey, or no? Hes grabbing my finger. Max, pull my finger. Pull my finger. Pull my finger. Pull my finger. Pull my finger. Ugh. I may poop if you do that. Would you like me to poop? Would you like me to poop? Oh. Its here. Hes not understanding that. Max, can I eat the shell? Why not? Max, put that in your pocket, honey, and take it home. Max told that Isabelle is not a baby human but a baby crab. Very nice, huh? Is he cute? Is he cute? Max, what does the rabbit say? Max, can I throw you in the water? I I bet I could throw you right out to that grass out there. But you know how to swim, right? You are allowed to scream at the beach. You can scream if you want. His what? OK. Throw it. Thats a rock head. Max, wheres the cat? Do you like that cat? Do you like cats? Oh my god, Scottie! Hey Scott, thats pollution, man. Hes polluting Max. Your daddy just polluted the water. Thats not good. Where are the grandparents there? Nice throw, Cheryl. Max, heres a crab. Wanna take it inside with you? Give it to your mom. Give it Grandma. Give it to Grandma, OK? Put it in Grandma Judys bed. Under her pillow. Just put it under her pillow. David, Uncle David. Theres Uncle David sitting

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there with Philip. Cheryl, look at this thing. What is it? Scott, what is this? Max chair. Max, look at this rock. Pretty, huh? Give the crab to Grandpa. Cmon. Max, did you smell these flowers? They smell so good. Try to smell this one. Max try smell this one. How does it smell? How does it smell, like what? What does that smell like? Give the crab to Grandma or Grandpa. I dont know. I just found I just found him. Dont bother. Good to see you. Very good. Ay. Hi. Good to see you. Its been a long time. Good. Its been a long time. How you doing? You just came back from Florida? How was it? Yeah, you cant you dont like it there, huh? Eh. You remember Cheryl. Hello. Happy Birthday you. Hi, how are you? What have you got there? Yep, yep. What are you holding there? Not mine. Scott, what are you guys doing here. Todays not a work day, is it? Oh, what. Wheres Mickey? What is it, I thought you were working today. Oh, shes awake. Oh, not at the moment, thanks. Maybe later. Yeah yeah. Let me see if I can get anyone anything. Sure. Sure. Can I get anybody a drink? Would anybody like a drink? Using some chopped liver. You can throw that back on the tray there. You think we got rules here? Theyre very much like Davids. Yeah, me too. I like your pants, though. Yeah, theyre very nice. Cheese and chopped liver. Can I get anybody a drink? David, anything? What do you want? A glass of wine or some... What do you want Grandpa? All right Im gonna leave this stuff out here. Hello hello. Aw, were comin. Whos that? I dont know. Who is that Grandma? Did you know who that was immediately or no? Whos Babette? She loves that. Do we have any gin or scotch? Thats what they want. Thats what they want. Uh, on the rocks. Give me the Tanqueray. That will be fine. Uh, I didnt didnt say anything like that. At 11:00 when the party was called for. You were the one who was late. I know certain.

Certain things are important. How you doin? Im gonna give this to the guests. Do you want a drink Grandma? Ill get it for you you want? Blow your nose. No, Im giving you a tissue. Did you get my letter? Good. Max, I got a present for you. Here you go, honey. Thats from your Uncle Kenny. You like that present? OK, I will wipe them off. Ma, here you go. Let me, uh, Ill wipe the chairs down. You enjoy it? Good, Im glad Im glad you got to see it. Yeah, well the others, the others are not interesting. Did you understand the article? You got the idea though? Did it give you an idea a little, uh, a little idea of what Im up to? Good. Well talk more about it. Let me wipe down the chair for Grandma. OK, did you wipe this one down yet? Yesum. Im gawna Mr. Johnson gawna clean all yo chair fo you now. Gon make that chair nice n clean. Im gawna make it clean fo yo. Im gawna make it fast n Im gawna make it clean fo yo! I dont I do I do it out of love. Not money. OK. Thats nice and clean. Whats the matter, this is not clean enough for you? Do you want me to clean your chair too? You do? Cheryl, would you like anything to drink honey? How about a glass of wine. You want a glass of wine? Wouldnt that be nice? Ill have one. Wheres the wine? Where is it? Are they are they cold? Ill have white. Scott you want anything? Hi Ellen. Good to see you. Hi Marty. Good to see you. Very good. Ellen, can I get you a drink? A little like water, wine or a little something? Marty, what can I get you? You want a glass of wine or water or? Go out on the porch. Its beautiful out there. Arent I sweet? Scott. So what happened? Anything happen with that guy at work? The guy that that you loved your ass after you saved his shit? Really. He youre loved one day couldnt give a shit the next. So much for for allegiance, huh? Thats amazing. Yeah, uh huh. Big deal. Sally, you want just one? Sure. Hows that? What could be better than a little wine.

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Cheryl, Cheryl just a little bit of wine? Nice and crisp? There you are. OK. So, 3 or 4 minutes would you like a glass of wine, Ma? Good wine, very good. Yeah. So, god one day. Get through this little nightmare. Yeah escapade. So, you guys are up one day down the next. That sucks. And you saved him like, like a million dollars and then lost. Right. Oh, man. So is that the way things usually work around there? They forget pretty quickly? That sucks. Yeah. Yep. Oh, man, its nice out here. Id say within 5 years, half the people on that porch are gonna be in the grave. What do you think? I was like I was thinking I was like about 11 when my great grandmother died which gives, whats Max, 2? That gives Grandma another 9 years? She could live. Cause Max was born later than we were. I mean I she she looks pretty good. She could be around for a couple of more years. I think both of them are. Where did you guys go for Margies birthday last night? You didnt bring Max, did you? But you did bring Isabelle. What kind of place is it? No, the Japanese food was excellent that night. Very fresh, very good. It was really good. Were going to a place called La Paella, which is great, which is just what it sounds like. You get a huge dish of paella for about 40 bucks feed 4 people, yeah, should be pretty good. Yeah, when its good its good. Were hoping were gonna go were thinking were gonna spend 2 months in France this summer and so we were gonna travel from there. You guys have been to Spain and Italy, right? Youve been to Italy. Never been to Spain. We figure were gonna be sorta in the south of France for the summer, for July and August and well take take rides take trips down to Spain and Italy and up to Paris. Ive never been to southern Europe. Ive never been to Italy, Ive never been to Spain. I Id really like to go to Spain. And were going to Greece, you know, in in. Were gonna go for 2 weeks. Were gonna do

this performance in a gallery and, uh, its a video show and Cheryl created a project for me to come along so it will be fun. Im Im really interested to go to Greece, you know? Have you been? I think, you know, first of all the food Im real interested in getting good I love Greek food. Have you ever been out to Astoria? They have the best Greek restaurants, the most authentic Greek restaurants. Theyre terrific, theyre wonderful, you know? So I cant imagine what the foods like in Greece. You you ever have retsina? Its Greek Greek pine cask wine. Kind of tastes like turpentine? Were you near, where are we going Cheryl, Beaujolais? Have you been down there? The wine country? Yeah. Sure. Sure, its like the Monet gardens. Yeah, were really excited to just hang out there, you know? Just just get, first of all, weve been in New York for the last 5 summers straight, you know, like living in the city I mean you guys are its nice out where you guys are. Its nicer in the country, of course, but where you guys are, you know, its beautiful. But we spent, you know, we I mean a couple, you know, like 5 years ago we used to spend the summers up in the country but we just havent for so many years and I said to Cheryl when it started to get warm I said, I dont wanna spend another summer in the city. I just cant do it again. So she said, oh lets call this woman, shes got this place that she just wants to give to artists and they get money from the government if you go so I said great Ill go write and you go work in the studio and it sounds good. Thats what were gonna do. What are you doing? Singing? What are you singing. What was that, a big yawn? You like her? Why has she got why has she suddenly got so red? You like her? I touch the baby. It cries. What does that mean? Why dont you just pick him up pick him up and bring him down? Cheryl, go bring him down, OK? Just go pick him up. Yeah, Mom, after this breaks up, can Cheryl

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and I borrow a car and try to hit some tag sales around the neighborhood? I figure its probably a good weekend for tag sales isnt it? Yeah. About that time. Yeah, but its a nice weekend. Well probably find something out there. Thank you very much. Many moons. Um, well, were going to Greece next month and then Las Vegas and then were going to France for July and August. To Beaujolais? Yeah, should be really nice. Yeah. She loves it there. OK, Sally see you soon. Good to see you. Say hi to Mickey. Ill get it for you. Why dont you sit down? Why dont you sit why dont you sit down next to your next to your baby. I will get your drink. Sit down Grandma. Its very nice. All right. I will get you your drink. Hold on. Peas, a cheese, and a drink coming right up. This is a beautiful cane. I like the dog, yes I do. I like it. Thats what you wanted. Let me bring it in to her. She wanted one. Yeah. Yeah. I always spill. Aw, stop complainin. All right, here you go. Number one, number two. You like her? Wheres Max? Is he cute? You like the picture of Babette? Yeah, you want a pillow? What do you think of all these kids around. No problem? No problem? Did you go up to see the babies, up to Margies place? Hows the house looking up there? Its getting there, yeah. Margie or the baby. I thought you always looked good, wait, when did you look bad? When we came up right after the baby was born you looked fine. You dont I dont recall seeing you look any worse. So now what how old are you now? 33? Wow! That was the year 33 is the year Christ was crucified and the year Buddha found enlightenment. Youd better get to work. This is a big year. Did you know Christ was crucified at 33? You got a you got a lotta work to do this year. Were getting old, Grandma. Were getting old, arent we? No no. And how old are you now? Youre 62? When tomorrow? Wait your birthday is the, oh... Why are we celebrating now? Oh.

How are they? How are the twins? Yeah, whats going on? I want something small like that, huh? What does that mean producing The Olympics? Thats amazing. What do they but they is she do they both still live in New York? They can do this work in New York or they have to be in L.A. all the time? Good for them. Good for them. Whats he do? Yeah, thats amazing. I mean, we dont have a T.V. We gave it up a year ago. Cheryl took it to her studio and I and we never missed it again. I mean, isnt that weird? I dont I dont feel like I miss it at all. I just, uh, I, you know, I wish I could say oh Ive seen those shows. What are the name of the shows shes doing? Do you talk to them Margie? Are you in touch with the twins? What do you mean use it for... Really? Where do they live? Where are their apartments? House. Wow, they got views of the river? So she works right there at Columbus just one by Lincoln Center. Oh, Rockefeller Center. Right. Huh. A good seat, huh? I dont know, maybe you could be the GE dentist. Oh, we went to the Montreal Olympics in 76. Major it was so boring we I remember you you know its so much better on T.V. they do such a good job. I mean, we saw nothing. We went to basketball games and they were like ants, yeah it was was so boring. And we couldnt see anything. Yeah, this was 20 years ago we went. Oh, it feels like 30 if you ask me. Dad, I think were eating. Why dont you why dont you bathe after I think. I think I can. Were gonna eat. All right you dont stink. Cmon. Dont hold up Dad, Dad, Dad. I think everybodys getting restless. Dont dont hold up the works. Lets eat. Seriously, I I think thats whats happening. So, Cheryl, did you know that the girls were producing the Olympics this year. Isnt this incredible? So youre gonna go down to work for them? Ellen is going down to work at the Olympics. Do they need flowers? Im in here. Hold on a sec. Be right out. Looks good. David, go ahead. Why dont you

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get get some food. Do you mind if I just stay here like this? Can I stay here like this for an hour? Just kitchen? Is that OK? Save this seat for me. Ah, yeah. Yeah, what can I do for you? What what what was the stock Scott? Yeah. Yeah. So you brought them? And what? And how many what was the down tip? What did they close at? Easy come, easy go, my boy. What ever what happened with, uh, what happened with Yahoo? And what happened? Did they go...? And then how far did it go? Yeah to like what? Yeah, thats interesting, so whats it at now? Theres no value. Who made this chicken salad, mother? Mrs., uh, what was her name? The woman that used to work for Marty? Hows Mrs. Nicholas? Do you hear from her? What does she do now? Whats she doing with herself? What? Ellen what does she do now, Mrs. Nicholas? What Main Street, Port Washington? I remember I remember her from the old days. I remember when she owned the Port. Ellen I remember when she owned the Salem Deli. No no Sal. But it was like right there. All right, all right. Huh? I cant remember what the crescent was. Im gonna sit Im gonna sit down here I never see you guys. Sit down here and say hel say hello. Being artists and doing what weve done for years. Doing computer. Were doing Internet. Have you heard about the Internet? Have you been following that? Have you looked around on it a little bit? Whats Stevens sons name? Noah. Where is he now, Noah? And hes in computers? Oh, hes all right, oh. Yeah, probably since he was a kid. You know, I was probably the last generation that did not grow up with computers. I mean, I bet our education, the one I had and the one you had in public school was essentially the same. After me, it changed. Kids two years younger than me had computers and a different type of education. Ive had to do a lot of catching up. Thats a good field. A lot of fun. Marty, have

you done any Internet? Its a lot of fun. Oh yeah? Were trying to get Scott online for years now. He refuses to get a modem. He doesnt want Max to see that pornography out there. So, you guys were in Florida for how long? You you hated it, huh? Where were you? Where? Wheres that? Uh huh, what was it you find it boring or? Well, look up in cold weather. Youll like it. Are you still in Rockville Centre? Same in the same place. I was just you know I dont go there that much anymore since my grandmother passed away last year. I go through there with Cheryl, uh... hey, Im my grandfathers grandson, you know? The man teaches taught me how to dress. I was a slob till he taught me how to dress. Um, so I drove through Rockville Center two Sundays ago I guess. I went to see we went to see my grandparents on the way down we looked at my grandmothers house on the way to see these guys. It was sold every window in the house was open as if they were airing the place out. It was very weird. You know but, uh, I dont think Im gonna have much reason to go back to Rockville Center. I mean my whole the whole familys not there anymore. Yeah there was. She is in Rockville Centre. Where is she, shes in some condominium over there, huh? So what what did you do in Florida? What did you do there? But theyre people you knew from Rockville Center? Really? Is Arthur Wolf still around? Arthur Wolf? Is he still alive. Dad, do they know Arthur Wolf? No? Is he still alive? He was Arthur Wolf was in the Battle of the Bulge. Oh yeah? Not bad, huh? Did you get down to Miami Beach when you were down in Florida? Oh, you were in, what do you mean live there? They were you didnt get down this time, did you? But recently youve been have I mean youve South Beach is crazy. Its very chic. I liked it. We were there twice over the last 5 years weve had occasion to be there. No, I liked it, actually, I thought it was a lot of fun. But

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back in those days it was nothing, right? On the beach? David you had no no desire to go there and see where you spent 3 years? Twice we had to go we were there twice for business in the last 5 years and it I was impressed by it. We stayed in South Beach both times. Yeah. Yeah. I found it fun. You know we live in SoHo. Not that much difference, to tell you the truth. It feels, you know, flashy, models. David, theyre all topless on the beach down there. I like that. Yeah, I thought it was terrific. I said I said lets, I said to Cheryl, lets take a walk on the beach it was terrific. I like that. We like that. The beach to go topless. You know, yeah. Oh, you dont but I do. David, would you look or no? Oh my god! What is that from? You cut your arm? Marty are you still collecting art? Are you still collecting art? Ceramics, yeah yeah. But you had a good ceramics collection going for a while. Cheryl and I were collecting, when we had room in our apartment, we were collecting really junky 50s production ware. Yeah, like like like like biomorphic, uh, shapes, kind of, you know, all that stuff. Enjoyed enjoyed that. Wed go to flea markets. No, theyre beautiful too. I bet that was considered junk in its day yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, well youve got well known artists. What are they collecting? Really, whats jazz sculpture? Really? Really? What do they like? What kind of jazz do they like? Oh, thats great, wow. Thats interesting. Im gonna have a little bit more. This is good, the foods very good. The chicken salad I think is terrific. Could I get you anything while Im up? Grandpa, do you want anything? Grandpa. Can I get you anything while Im up? Gram? David you all set? You want a little salad or anything while Im up? All right. Hey Margie, have you been able to get my radio station in? Yeah, why dont you? Tuesday nights. You should call call me. Yeah, thats me. Thats my time. You should give me a call. Tell me youre listening. David, I got a Im doing

a radio show. In the middle of the night. Its, uh, its a, uh, a station coming out of East Orange New Jersey in the graveyard shift, 2 to 6 a.m. Yeah, youre broadcasting to New York City theres always an audience. Its called F WFMU, 91 point 1. Just think of 9 1 1. Its fun. I never did it before. They start you on they start you on the dead hours, so you make a mistake no one cares at that hour. I heard that. This guys an idiot. I mean, that was really. Yeah, yeah, but then in the paper they printed all the other stuff that he had... did you read that? They printed all the other stuff that he said over the years. The guys an idiot. Who, Bob Grant? Are we talking about the same, oh, Bob Grant? What an idiot, yeah. Yeah. Im glad, hes thrown off the air now, isnt he? Yeah, hes pretty evil, yeah. I remember when he was just on radio. Oh yeah, oh yeah. South meaning Florida or The South? The food is good. Did you read about this Bob Grant? Hes evil. Ethyl says hes evil. Scott, did you read about that? What did he what was his quote that he said. Cheryl listen to this. Ron. What an idiot, huh? Oh, there was a rumor that there was survivors, thats right. Right, and Im a pessimist, right. And hes incredibly popular. Yeah. ABC, wasnt he on WABC? Grandma, what do you like? You watching Oprah these days? You still watching Oprah or not really? You used to know all the daytime talk shows. You like Geraldo. I know he is. And what do you think of, uh, whats his name, Bob Dole? Do you like him? We always talk politics. I know you love talking politics with Aunt Ethyl, huh? I you always have you play the devils advocate I think you abused it pretty... a Leftist? I remember the two of you used to really get going. So he would play devils advocate just to get you going. I think your political sympathies are very much aligned. Yeah. The citys a lot nicer place to live these days. Hes doing a nice job. Yeah. You still got DAmato out here, right? Hes

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been a terror for years. Yeah. I mean wasnt his brother indicted on some kind of criminal charges? I like Giuliani I think the city is the is becoming a cleaner and, uh, safer place. I feel it. I dont have an opinion, really. I like Cuomo, I always thought Cuomo in the end he seemed he seemed a little bit inefficient. He wasnt doing a whole lot in the end. I mean I I Im not paying attention to that really. Im not much of a political animal. Yeah, hes a charismatic bright guy, but I think in the end he was ineffectual. But. Ah, he was nothing. Koch was an idiot. I mean this is, you know, I think Giuliani is doing good stuff in the city. Yeah yeah. Its its he making, you know, a lot of business activity, uh, a lot of people coming in, uh... I love it, yeah, I love it. Yep. Oh, yeah its incredible, its... yes, oh its an incredible place to live. Weve lived I guess 5 years and either 5 or 6 years we lived on the Lower East Side which was interesting but, I think, were happy to live on the West Side now. I like the West Side. No no no, were were were getting there. We have an apart we have a very small apartment, tiny. But we dont mind, you know, its, uh, big enough and, you know, in New York you dont entertain in your house unless youve got a big house so you go to restaurants. You entertain in restaurants. Were out every night were out all the time we dont need a big place. Its like a hotel room or something. We never hang out there. Oh, we got two two rooms. Weve got a bedroom and then the other room is a combined living room kitchen dining room and we cant even fit a couch in there. But, you know, the action in New York is on the street. Its not in the home, you know, we have a the dog and one thing we love to do is just take the dog for a walk you see the most amazing things. Yeah, its very exciting. It is, yeah, you really do, no, its very rich. Until we. Until we decide to have a kid, whichll probably be in about 3 years from now

well have a kid and were fine. And when we need a bit more space, then well get a bigger place. Yeah. I have a little office. I have an office thats even smaller than my apartment. Thats on Broadway and Houston and... No, no its an office. Its a little office in a Stanford White building. Its nice, its small. I have my computer there and Im all set. Millions. Too many, too many. All were doing is all we are is social. Its tire tiresome sometimes. Yeah, yeah, well, thats why were gonna wait a few years. Max, wheres the crab? Wheres the crab? Wheres the crab that we found outside? Huh? Wheres the crab, Max? What what noise does the crab make? You ready? You wanna hear the noise the crab makes? Can you do that? Right, thats the noise of the crab. Hey Max. Whos this? Whos this man here? This one. Whats his name? Yeah. Grandpa did you hear that? Is he cute? Is he cute, Grandma? Is he cute? Whos this? You like this kid, gramps? Is he cute? What does he want, Margie? What does he want? Wait a minute, I had lunch at the Museum of Modern Art. Cocktail party. Then she had to teach. Then we went to an Internet party. We were zonked. This week has been really nuts. No, next week weve got Peter Halleys thing, uh, we got the opera, were going to the opera with my mother on Monday night. I love opera, yeah. Romeo and Juliet. You like opera, David? Yeah, I love it. Well, I got my Mom into so we got season tickets for the Met. Yeah. Did did you spend a lot of time at the Met? Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday, oh look at that face, to you. Happy birthday dear Grandma, happy birthday to you. Max, put your hand in the cake! Yay! And Barney. You dont wanna know, Grandma. With who? Why didnt you call me? Was it good, Dad? You should have called me. I would have gone with you. Next week, all right? You went to the same place? Were they nice? Same people? Well go, you wanna go this week?

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You got a free day? Thatd be fun. Im glad you like it. It was how was the jap chee? Was it good? It was the noodles, yeah. And and what did you have with it? Was it some place youd take a business associate? Its good its good food. Grandma, youve got a lot of family around you right now, huh? Ohhhh. Look at that bowl of strawberries. We can go we can go all the way. Who? Who is this, David? We dont know him. OK. I like Gigli. I play this I play him on my radio show all the time. Well, lets see, I think we saw Pavarotti and we saw Domingo. Carreras weve never seen I think hes. We saw Pavarotti at the Met and my Mom and Cheryl and and I this this season saw Domingo singing Othello at the Met. Who is this? Is that what happened? We dont know. Give us the dirt. At least hes not gay. Said Scott. You know I always thought I should should move to those Latin cultures. Oh, and I had to be and I had to be Jewish! Cheryl, its not its nice ice cream. You know, you want to know where this finger has been? Thats another. In the basement. Could I get him could I get him to throw some food? Would it would it would he do it? Who? You think hed pick up a piece of cake and throw throw it at the wall? Dad, you should have seen when we were at Margies and Scotts house, he had this plastic hammer and he went over to Grandmas big chest that they have in their dining room and blasted bashed the glass. It came so close to breaking. I laughed. I laughed. Is he cute? Is this mine? So what tell me what are your kids up to? Yeah, where does she teach. What do you mean they live in cars? Where is this? They live in cars? Ive never heard of such a thing. Margie was in touch with her, wasnt she? Up in Boston? Marge, hes eating with his hands. Is that all right? Is that all right? Is that all right? Look at the hand going into the cake. I like this kid. What noise does the crab make? Is he cute? Yeah, good child. Dad, look at this one.

Totally asleep. So is she gonna sleep her whole life? Wouldnt it be weird if she just slept her whole life? You wanna go there one day this week one night something like that? Could you stand it again. We could go somewhere else. We could get some Japanese food. Remember that expensive place we went we didnt go? They want 60 bucks a meal, something like that? Whatd I say? What did I say? Isnt it still? Paris and Las Vegas. Well were gonna go see the Acropolis and then were gonna go directly see Caesars palace. Were spending the were going with the Donegans to Las Vegas for Memorial Day. That should be fun. Been sedentary since India so. Oh, shes gonna stay the first leg at downstairs cause starting tomorrow we we I take care of the 3 dogs for a week. Theyre going to Florida. So, thats what were going to do this week, so theyll pay us back when we go. Yeah, maybe Margie, yeah maybe Max would like to have a little dog for two months. Itd make him happy. Shes so easy, just open up the door, let her go. Ah, well cross that bridge when we come to it. Yeah, Bob, yeah Bob would do us that favor, wouldnt he? Yeah. Whats happening with Bob? Has he got anything anything going on? What? Whats happening with it? What so he was gonna be in there by the summer but its not gonna happen till when? I see, yeah. Everything takes longer. Everything takes longer. And whats happening with his legal case, I mean theres... postpone? Whats going on with your house in the country? Work going on? This is, hey, you know? Everything takes longer. You think patience might be the key? Is that is that moving along? Well my book was supposed to be out for my birthday well be lucky if we get it out for the fall. More likely well get it for the winter, you know, I mean. Were just talking about how long everything takes and how everythings supposed to happen now but itll happen, you know, everything takes so

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long. You think patience is the thing, huh? Forget it. Is the place looking good? If we go up there in May sometime, could we stay there? Yeah. Oh, you did stay up there Dad? Oh, is there water? Oh, Max can do it, why cant I eat with my hands? I I I follow. She had had no manners, did she Grandma? You know, I like my father. I like this guy, huh? Hey Max. Hey Max. Hey Max. What are you doing? When we go out in public I dont have bad manners. At home Im a pig. I like the, you know, I went to India. I was in India and in India in the South, you eat with your hands. I love it. You go you go like this. So I... would you like to try off my hand? What is it? Where is this? Where is this? Youve been to Africa. I love it. Did you do it? No, it was never hot. It would yeah the food was bad? Listen you get better food in New York than you do in any country. We got we got the ingredients here. Normally when I went to India Ill tell you the food was not what it was downtown. Some friends of mine were doing business there. Nice to see you Marty. Indian woman. I like drugs. I think its a good city, yeah. Ah. What do you think of these shoes? You like them? They meet your approval? I dont know theyre, yeah. Uh, Kenneth Kenneth Cole. You heard of them? You wanna try one on? You dont like you dont like when I wear brown socks. You told me that I had to wear only gray socks. Heres what I was told. I was told that if youre wearing a brown belt and you go brown shoes on, your belt and your socks should match. No no no, what do you think of that? Whats your rule? Does it look do I look stupid? Good to see you. See you soon. Thats good. Its nice to see you. Take care of that arm. Ay ay Max, come here. Max. Max. You like this guy? Do you see yourself in him? You see a little Max in him? He does look like Scott. Yeah, Scotts a good looking guy, though. Not bad looking. So he says so he says, Mr. Field, I dont cut the hair like that.

They got a what do you think of the view now you like it here? You could just sit out here for a long for a long time, huh? So when I sent you that thing I realized that I forgot to put the note inside because I spoke to ya. Did you get it? I spoke to you, I sealed it, and I forgot to put the note inside. Im glad it got to you. You like the article? Yeah. Two million, I dont think so. It should he wanted to have the book out. I wanted to have it for my birthday. I dont think its gonna happen till the Fall. You gonna hang around for that? Please, hang around for that. Did you read the description? What do you? My cold blooded mother in law. She is, yeah. But what do you was it making sense to you the book? What do you mean you didnt think so? That there was a structure, yeah. Yeah, theres a real structure there. Thats nice. 3, 3 years to write that thing. Listen you stick you stick around youll find its dedicated to ya. No no no if you stay around long enough to see that damn thing published, youll find a dedication that its for you. No no no no no. Max didnt... listen listen Max didnt give me the, uh, love of language that you did. So youve got youve got a dedication on that book buddy. The whole thing if you like it or not its dedicated to ya. No, they dont read. They they didnt give me I mean this is the first major the first major no I have a few books out but this gonna be the big 600 page book thats going... Yeah, you got a few. Did you think he was a good writer he had a good style? Well, were gonna go to Greece in May for two for a week. For a week and a half 10 days and then were going to Vegas. Max, you got a kiss for Grandpa? _________________ theyre sending us there. See what happens. Youve been there? Were gonna get out there to the islands. Yeah. Now, were going to Las Vegas and were gonna fly back to Las Vegas for Memorial Day weekend with Cheryls family. 4 day, what am I gonna do? We were there

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10 years ago. Just me and Cheryl, the mother and the father and the baby. You wanna go? You wanna sit right here. This is beautiful, huh? What do you think when theyre gonna... Ay, there you go. Is he sleeping? Whats going on here? Is it a tape? You like the Unabomber case? Let me rescue Cheryl, shes out there alone. The partys almost over, isnt it? No, no, Im Cheryl and I are gonna walk around and take your car and try to find some good tag sales today for a little while. But I, uh, these guys are almost finished, arent they? The grandparents theyre gonna go soon? Oh, well, I I shouldnt leave her down there. I mean, let me go rescue her. Yes. Well what do I do? Hey I just follow what what my father what my father does. Well, I tell I learned it all from him. I learned it all from him. Hes a good dresser, that guy. Im what Ive been for about a year. I came back from India I was very thin and then I put on a couple of pounds so Im. Im about 145. I stay at about 145. No you dont get anything there. How much what do you weigh? Thats pretty good. 145 is about right, isnt it? I used to be 175. I was fat. Yeah, I feel good. I feel good. I could lose about 5 pounds Id feel a little better, right gramps? Youre trying to put a little weight on. You look great, though. You look so good. Do you mind if Im wearing these sunglasses. Theyre very 70s, you know I got a problem with my eye. I got an eye disease. I I this happened when I last came back from India I see the vision in my left eye is lousy. It it just happens. I see a big blue circle in my left eye. I did, yeah. I got a theres a theres a disc I got it happens to young men who have much stress in their life. Ive got this blue circle in my left eye and my visions lousy. Yeah, I got it again too. It just goes away. Its like a virus. Hows your eye? Yeah, well, what the heck. No, you know Im a guy that likes to have no shoes on I at home I wear no shoes. Do I like I like them both. I am I am totally am I like

him? Oh no, seriously I get all of my good points, my good points David they all come from this guy. I got everything from him. Cheryl, youre such a nudge. Uh, Grandma, I want a divorce. 13 years with this bitch. I will some day. I should live so long. She is. If its it if ascetic shes comfortable. You know who Im like David? Im like my sister. Margie and I have a very similar temperament. Im the dark side of her. Yeah, all I am is darkness and I get it from the Prince of Darkness here. Conrad. Heart of Darkness. Joseph Conrad wrote the book Heart of Darkness. Do it right here. Grandma, Grandma, you know I think its shrinking. Yeah. Shes touch touch that thing on her Cheryl. Touch that thing. What have you had it? Youre bore? How are you getting home, David? You taking a car? Should we call the car for you? David you want me to call the car seriously? Let me talk to my Dad. Ma, how how are they, uh, how are they getting home? Grandpa wants to get going. Should we call the car? We called the car so it should be here soon. Hes a good baby that Max. She called the car. Youre out of here soon, buddy. Yeah. How does he dress? What do you mean? Look at this big house over here its a major... What do you look at? I came into the world in 1961. Ill meet you. All it is you climb the 3 stairs to get to the platform, you sit on the train, you sit your ass down, you come into the city. Then I meet you, we take a cab down to Katzs. We stuff our faces, we have a couple of laughs, we walk around. Dad, what do you think? You hate the train? You know Grandpa, there are a lot of nice people to meet on the train. How about do people try to make friends with you on the train? Why, they knew to stay away? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my father was trying to get some military biz. You never got that, did ya? That would have been a good job. Howard told me that these pants that Im wearing are military pants theyre gabardine. He says the

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military wears uses the gab gabardine. Yeah. Yeah, what about them? Yeah, I do like them. Yeah? Oh yeah? Why? I like the cream color, yeah theyre nice. Yeah yeah. How are those shoes? How are those shoes? You get along with him? I get along with him well. Im the only one. Are you ready to get going? Yeah, me too. Im Im just like you. I cant, yeah, I picked you instead. How you feeling? No seriously, you took the VW back into the shop? After I drove it? You got that goddamned mirror that keeps flipping over. The brakes are all right. What it needed was when you go into 4th gear over 40 it starts to rattle like hell. No, I dont like it. Well, why dont you drive into the city to see me? Could you if you had to for emergency? What what do you mean you would? You could do it? Youd get on to the LIE and take that car into on? What would you take the side streets then? Yeah. You take the Southern State. But you could if you had to drive into the city. Yeah, yeah. Hows hows your reading? You know what Im reading? Thomas Mann. Yeah, it is thats why it going slow. Doctor Faustus. Thats why its going slow. But its good. Its a slow book. What the hell? Next up is mile Zola. You like him? Gertrude Stein? You like her? Shes a Yid. Shes a lesbian. You never knew any lesbians in your day? You did? Who? What at Comfort? Really? Really? But you do approve. What? When am I gonna see you again? Next next month Im gonna see ya? We saw you what, two weeks ago at your house we had a good time. It was two weeks ago. You kicked me the hell out. You said Ive got to take a nap. Get out of here. Get goin. You know what we did? Yeah, we went to Roosevelt Field. Im a big boy. I havent been to Roosevelt Field in years. That place has gotten enormous. Yeah yeah big mall. When was the last time you were there? You like the mall? You like some of the local storekeepers in Cedarhurst? Who do you like? How... ask my

father about those games hell tell you about it. What do you mean youre gonna look? For what? What youre not gonna live here forever? Go to Fayetteville. Its a nice place. I was almost born there. When I was a few days old I was in Fayetteville. My Dad was called what up when, how old was I a week or two old? Oh, is that right? Are you actually thinking of, uh, going to down to Carolina? I thought you loved the cross country skiing. Why dont you go why dont ya why dont you live in the country and then drive up to Amherst Dad? But you got the country house. Why dont you retire up to the country house you got the lovely snow in the winter. I mean, you could drive over the Amherst. What is it about 45 minutes? Yes, 8 years hes saying. What is it the Gross are looking to retire in North Carolina also? A lot of Klan activity down there. I wouldnt move down there. Lot of you got what do you want some crosses burned on your lawn? Hmmm? Periphery? The center. Gabardine. I got. I got every I get all my attitude from him too, my outlook on life. Yeah. I wish I had a sunnier temperament. Im a little dark, you know. Slightly dark. I dont know where I would get that from. Yeah. I tell you, aw, Im gawna sit out here all day and watch the goddamned fisherman. Why not? I hate the goddamned birds. Right. Yeah. Aw goddamned birds, aw, the goddamned birds you see the goddamned birds out there Phil? I hate that goddamned guy out there, yeah. Aw, hes watching the rich people. I romanticize him. I romanticize him. Aw, so do I. I have a million friends. Uh, looks like 5 to me. I love goddamned people too. And animals. We both share a warmth for Maria, right? How is she doing? You hear from her? What is she she gonna make it? Get the goddamned car over here, will ya? Ma did. Get the hell out of here. Ive had enough of you too buddy, pal. Aw, I had enough of you, enough socializing, enough animals.

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Goddamned sea! I hate it! The goddamned birds, to hell with them! Aw, the hell with them. She is really accident prone, isnt she? Ay. Dont do that on the... Max. You dont like her? Do you not like her? You dont like my wife. Why are you leaving? Why are you leaving so fast? Good-bye. All right Grandpa. David good to see you. Good to see you. I was just there recently. Good place. See ya Ethyl. Grandma, Ill talk to you soon. Good to see you for your birthday. All right, youre gonna get in the back here. Lets see if the car... No theyre done. Look at them splitting wood there. Where do these go? Ma, wheres the domestics? I cant believe that were doing this stuff. Cheryls a domestic. I knew I married her for a reason. Ja Ja Mrs. Goldshmiths. Mrs. Goldshmiths. Wheres the baby? Ah. Whats he been doing with himself? Hows he looking? Hows Jackie 2? The what? Whos that? Hi. Whos that? You like her? Shes cute? Whos kid is that? You know her? Glad its over? You came just for the baby? You did? Michelle, do you know Max? This is Margies other baby, Max. Watch out. Shes got two babies. Was he cute? Want a puppy? What kind, a mutt? I hear him. Cheryl this is Michelle. Shes from across the street and she came to see the baby. Michelle do you want a piece of cake? Shes so cute. You take a little home with you. Here. This is for now. Youre welcome. Shes seven. My god, shes big. Max. Where? Need anything else done? Those chairs stay out there or they come in? So are you gonna come back here? Were just gonna tool around see if we can just blow a little. Where does this chair go? This one. Were just gonna take a little ride go a little try to find find some thrift go see some tag sales blow off a little time. You gonna be around? You gonna stay here? What? All right. Yeah yeah all right yeah. Its a nice day were just gonna enjoy the day before it starts to rain. Were gonna be gone about 45 minutes. Roaming

around, me and the wife. Wheres the towel? Wheres Cheryl, in there? Just just the food was good. The company was lively. Wheres Max? Is he sleeping? Why is he sleeping? Really? He needs the he needs the sleep? Like my new shoes, Mom? See them? I just got them. Pretty, arent they? Ill wear them Monday night. Theyre nice, I mean, theyre weird, arent they? Yeah, theyre like loafers. Kenneth Cole. Good name, huh? Kenneth Cole. It was fun. I like Ethyl and David. Theyre nice. Ma, why is Max sleeping? Its kind of weird that he sleeps in the middle of the day like this, isnt it? Is this baby do anything but sleep? OK, you you wanna make a plan for... you wanna lunch is probably easier for me than dinner. Lets see. Well, I got another job for NYU Law School. Im doing a web site for them. A section of their law school so, thats good. NYU can certainly pay. You got a piece of paper you got a scrap this is a different wallet. So thats good. I went did Cheryl tell you about our Cybersuds? The cyber network event we went? Cheryls trying to get involved in it too now. So, if I can get enough work no she could come work for me, she is very good. Oh, I dont like it. OK, 11:45 on what, Thursday? Huh? Thank you though, Im all right. I dont like to carry more stuff around Ive got a calendar at work. I I usually have a wallet my wallet usually holds these things. I wear t-shirts most of the time I dont wanna carry another thing around with me. I carry too much shit around with me as it is. Why dont you get an electronic one really...? Youll be waiting a long time for that. I know, yeah, youre gonna wait a long time for that one. Why dont you just carry a little tape recorder then with you, a little dictaphone? No, I know I know I. Why dont you have one where you type it in? You take your pen and go choo choo choo. Forget it, anyway, so well just do that on Thursday all right? Cause night times are just kind of

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booked. Kind of a busy time late spring May late April May and June in the art world are the worlds were in are a very busy time. Always have been. OK, thatll be fine. You understood it, huh? Did you get a sense of what you were up to? Did it give you a sense just a I know you had a little trouble with it as a reader did it give you a sense of what Ive been up to? Yeah? Good. But you got the idea of the book? Well Geoffs publishing it, you know? And itll be out, well, he says this summer but I I, like I said, were not gonna see it for a while. But its good. You know, its very good. Yeah, it was nice of them to write it up, wasnt it? Well, he had been following my stuff, you know, he had just he likes it and I guess the time was right, you know, there were a couple of other artists that were doing stuff with words and they figure thats, you know. I was happy. Im glad you read it, though. Its a good magazine. A lot of people see it. It hasnt done any, theres nothing to do really. I mean, theres nothing to sell. John and Karin got a call for a couple of people asking if they want a copy of the book but. It was great, you know, I was disappointed with the art worlds capacity to take in language, thats thats fine, you know? Its honest I I I think thats good, you know, it reveals how an artist goes from doing one thing to another. You know if that show was successful and I thought it was successful, Id continue doing gallery stuff. What it says is we get from one place to another by not always by the good things but the bad things lead us to other places too. Disappointment and failure and misunderstanding too can also be an opening, you know, a blossoming and that was what he was, I hope thats what people would get that from what he was saying. People would get that, you know? You think so? I sent a copy to Grandpa Philip. Anything long enough, you know, get people. Youve been getting written up for years and years. An executive

coming into the industry would love to get the press you get but, you know, you know people you stick around, right? Camel youre not doing Anne Klein II anymore? Is that a were you a licensee for that. So you got business canceled, huh? Id love to see it, Im sure. Well, well oh look at that little thing that little is that new that little is that new that little chest of top of the chest on top of the drawer? Is that yours? Whats in it? Who got you that, Mom? You happy about it? Hows Max, is he cute? Cool cool kid, isnt he? Yeah, so was I. I was a good kid until Margie came along. Yeah, Mom told us yester hey did Mom have a good time seeing Cheryl? They get along, huh? You know, this is good. Well that one talk the talk that the big talk we had this winter did it. Im Im happy its a lot its a big load off my head, you know? Get along. You too. Let them just, uh, let them get along for gods sake. Neither do I. I dont hear it either. I never hear it. Its so easy theyre both so easy to deal with now. Its very nice. Oh, we had a good time with Mom. Im gonna go to the opera cause Cheryl cant make it. No, no, this is another, believe me, this is not the not the girl. This is a dopey high school assistant that was was really my assistant she was really sweet, no its not. I wouldnt believe me I wouldnt wouldnt take her to dinner. Well, uh, this is a really sweet, actually about 19 now she was kind of a this girl who who was very straight. She hate hated every all the art I was doing but shes a straight arrow and, yeah, she took me to her mothers house for dinner in Poland and shes really nice. Shes just a kid. You like that Max. He got a personality now, huh? Piss and vinegar? He eats it up, I mean, there are a lot of there are a lot of great kids that dont turn out to be such great adults, so hes got a hes got a lot of work to do. It aint gonna be that easy. Whats the story with Isabelle? Shes so sleepy. Not like this. Is she cute? Oh boy, the grandparents.

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I cant believe theyre still around. Grandmas 85 Grandpas gonna be 89? Theyre gonna live a few more years? Yeah. One of them, huh? You think Rosalinds gonna go first because of her health? The lung thing? He seems to be doing OK. He seems to be the same as he has for several years. Shes having trouble breathing, huh? Whats the latest with Susan? No more therapy? Is anything happening with the guy? Amies having a lot of trouble. Amies getting into a lot of trouble. Its not good. See the same thing hanging around with the wrong group of kids summer is coming, you know, Don and Melanie are not forcing her to go to some kind of creative place. Shes gonna stay around Holden this summer. Shes getting really bad grades in school, like C minus. You know, a lot of C minuses, thats not good. Shes not a dumb kid. Shes just off on a wrong track. Its not good. Cheryls really worried about her. Its bad thought. She was gonna talk to Kathy about it. Cheryls especially alarmed this week when she spoke to her father about how poorly Amies doing in school, you know, cause Amies an A an A an A potential, you know, an A potential. Yeah. Yeah, but you but we reach her sometimes and then its back to the same old thing at home, you know, its you gotta be you have to have somebody there every day. Yeah, well theyve certainly tried and its not its not working. Yeah, Cheryls pretty upset about it. Listen I wanna go cause we got to get back into the city and I want to take a little ride with Cheryl. Look at these guys fishing, Dad. What are they you cant eat the fucking fish from there, can you? Do people swim there? What did they say? Great. Theyve said its all right to swim. Its nice to have an alternative. Wheres the pool gonna go? Right behind those trees? We its gonna be next to La Rosas or beyond those trees? All right, well catch up, well catch up. Yeah still, huh?

Well find out where the where the wives are. Cheryl wants to get back. We have dinner with her art dealer tonight. All right, lets were gonna take a little ride first. Take a little ride I need to clear my head Ive got too much family, thanks. No. Lets take a little ride, sweetie, before it gets too late. I wanna go to some yard sales, see if I cant pick up some records for my show. It wasnt me. Can we borrow keys to a car? Cmon Cher were gonna take a little ride. Kenny G needs a little a little family space here. To be honest, I love you guys, but Im a little bit burnt. At least Im honest. Come come come. OK, well be back in a little while. Dad, Ill see you in a little while Ill prob OK, where is it in the garage? OK. Where? Cmon Cher. OK. All right, well well be back in a little while. Ready? Oh, were gonna go out this way, honey. Whoops! All right all right. It was OK, it was OK. Oh my. Oh no. Bye. Hey Im Teds son. How you doin? You guys doing a little trimming? Nice to see ya. You look like youre doing a lot of work over there, huh? All right. Did you eat that cake yet? OK! See you in a little while. Well be right back. Slight detour. Shes so adorable, isnt she? Both the kids? Yeah. That was that was tiring, huh? I just wanted to get out of there for a little while, god, you know? You agree with me? Who? Make what worse. Like I wanna get out of here? Its OK. They know it and they love it. How you doing, you tired? I just wanted to escape with you for a while. I was just getting claustrophobed out. Monkey shine. Monkey goes. My grandmother, shes not doing so good, huh? All that huffin and puffin. See any yard sales yet? Just cruise around a bit. I would think that this weekend would be a great yard sale weekend, wouldnt you? Get some funky shit. Fonky shit. You remember Dave and Karens wedding and we drove around with Nick and Elizabeth? Wasnt that weird? Isnt it weird how like a friendship can just vanish? I think it

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was that weekend in the country that did it, huh? You ever think about them? Theyre off somewhere. Now my fathers talking about retiring in 8 years to North Carolina. What I, uh, much of this trip is about about is, uh, with the with the, uh, Grosss to see whats happening in North Carolina. Yeah. Yeah theyre thinking of going to someplace like Chapel Hill, like a university town in the South. Yeah. Uh huh. The latest plan. What? Yep. Pretty wild, huh? Yeah. Look at that woman in purple over there in the sari. Look at that at that group over there. Colorful Indian saris. It looks like an Indian family, doesnt it? Yeah, so this is their latest plan. This is what theyre looking into. Theyre looking into, uh, moving to North Carolina. No, they want to be in a university town, some place where its a little bit warmer. Uh, they wanna be able to sort of take classes and be stimulated but be somewhere thats really pretty. Uh, what do you think? No. Theyre going down. I dont know, really, I have no idea. Hi sweetie. Yeah. I dont see too much going on here. In the way of yard sales. Huh, lets just take a little ride, huh? Clear the old head out, what do you say? Sale. You never know when a signs just gonna pop up like that, huh? You OK, hon? Max is cute, huh? Hes so adorable. That was fun with him by the shore. The thing in the street here, its kind of weird. Maybe its Sunday. Could be. Could be. Sorry kids to disturb your game. Its a little bit of a dead end. I used to know a girl that lived somewhere around here. I used to know a few people who lived down here. Doovie once got hit. One night, one Friday night we were walking right here, right along Shore Road up here and this guy, like wailed Doovie in the stomach. Yeah. Sale. Its Sunday. Ha ha ha. No, I thought this was today. Yeah yeah. Right here. Just just as we were walking by Doovie he took his fucking fist and wailed him, knocked the wind right out of Doovie. Doovie

was hurtin for certain. Ill never forget that. We just walked on, you know. Do you remember we went here to the Diwan Indian Cuisine? Youve never been here? My parents? Ive been here a few times with them. Anyway, yeah, so Doovie got slammed in the stomach and we just kept walking. Were gonna have lunch on Tuesday if you want to join us. David and I. Sleepy, boo? Wanna kick back and take a nap? Max gets so excited about little things, doesnt he? Every little thing is like whoa! Like turn it up, all right! Its all exciting, isnt it? Hes so cute. Hes a good boy. 105 Summit Road, yeah, here we are. Tons of everything. Moving garage sale. We have we have no idea where Summit road might be. Keep an eye open. Garage sale. Oh, 31 Avenue B, OK, I know where that is. What? Ethyl is Grandmas sister. Cant you see the resemblance now that you think about it? Really? Huh? Really, I can. I can see it so clearly. Shes Grandmas younger sister. Now this is Manorhaven. This is where Robert Morgans daughter lives. So, well go to Avenue B. Well go look for the sale at Avenue B, sure. Manorhaven. Now this is Soundview. This is where most of my good friends Ellen and Pohley lived in Soundview. Many many good friends of mine lived here. Huge, huge, like fifties housing development. This used to be all sand pits and this was just this really, yeah, oh yeah, and they were like they, you know, originally they were like something like 10,000 dollars now of course theyre like 400,000. Yeah. Yeah. I dont know. This was many many of my best friends lived here. This is where Ellens mother used to like rake the carpet and stuff. Yeah, this is wild. This is like that book Suburbia, isnt is? Yeah. Used to used to rake the carpet. You couldnt if you walked on the carpet Ellens mother would flip out and youd have to youd have to take the rake and. Oh yeah, yeah. Many, many. Urban look, right. Doesnt it

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look like theyre from Houston or from Kids or something? I knew that youd find this fascinating with the chains and the whole deal, yeah. MTV, yeah. This was all sand pits. I actually recall, uh, when I was really young I had a friend who lived here when this was being built and this was all being carved out of a big sand pit, you know, this whole area is one big sand bar. Its insane, isnt it? Its like also how could they all be as expensive as they are all now, I mean, you just cant, yeah, its huge. Its just Soundview is sprawling. I mean, Soundview is, if you could get a view down from from here which you cant anymore, I mean, its absolutely. Yeah. Yeah this is post war suburbia. Yeah, now this is no longer Soundview. These houses are a touch older but just as close together. Very densely populated, isnt it? Avenue B I believe is down this way. Like the school, right, so we got to go down one more. The yard sale scene is a little disappointing, isnt it? This is the older model, isnt it? All things being being relative. Disgusting, isnt it? Curves, huh? Is this fun driving around? Wanna go to the thrift shop instead? Yeah, well head back into town. I think this is just kind of blah. So Margies just preoccupied with being a mother, huh? 100% of her attention? Shes so absorbed in it, isnt she? Heres Avenue C. Avenue B. Oh, this is one way. Its one back. What do you think? Yeah. Is this Long Island, Cher? It could be a whim but this is one of the reasons to check the area out. Yeah, theyll probably sell it I mean they wont sell it but I mean the kids will get it or something, you know? OK, heres Avenue B. What do you think of Avenue B? I hope we find a sale. Yeah. Its all just one version of ugliness after another. This is the way most of America live, you know? Well, whats up with the yard sale? We see signs but we weve just driven the entire length of Avenue B. No luck, huh? Look, theres a sign too. I guess. I dont think, no, its

only 3:30. Oh well. Well drive back into town and hit a thrift shop or something fun. IBM. Harbor Home. You know Harbor Homes here is where all the blacks lived? Huh? Roger Drive. Oh, lets see between 13th and 14th. Yeah, I mean this is totally the ghetto. It is. See black people in there? What? How they live? No no seriously. Are you saying that? Are you joking? Are you serious or are you just or are you just joking me? Serious. Do you think its a bummer that the blacks get shoved into these horrible places? Its not pleasant, its not, I mean, you know, this living is really not nice. You joking around. Oh, I knew people who lived in these houses and well, well, well, Cheryl. I spent many nights walking this strip with a beer in my hand with a frozen Michelob in my hands. I wonder why kids in high school love Michelob, that was the sort of. Sort of, you used to have Michelob? It was shit, wasnt it? You love me? With me? Why me? Am I bad? I mean I was good today. Wasnt I wasnt I helping out and sweet to the old people? So, whats the problem? Wasnt I serving drinks and cleaning up? Wasnt I? Why are you mad at me? You burnt? Youre not pissed at me? Am I in the dog house? A little bit? For what? I am act out? I think theres a I think theres a train in 15 minutes and the other ones in another hour I think were were not gonna make that one in 15 minutes even if we gunned it. We could spend the extra hour, say we got an hour to kill we could spend it at home or we could kind of spend it cruising around. What do you want to do? Wanna try to hit the thrift shop or something? Bayside Avenue. Theres one on Bayside. Where the hell is Bayside? I dont know, 9 Bayside. Look at Starbucks Coffee. Thats kind of scary and ugly, isnt it? Wanna go in? I thought I was nice. What when I was like... oh, that was just a joke. But it just happened that once, even though once is too much. Yeah. Come lets go, in baby. Yeah,

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well talk, yeah, lets lets yeah, I will. I thought the fact that I only did it once was pretty good. Yeah, I tried. I cant, you know, Im trying. I wouldnt leave my bag there, baby. Help yourself. How are they? Oh, whatever was gonna catch my eye, but. Nope, nope. I just like music if I saw anything that was gonna catch my eye I would have... Uh, indiscriminate? Uh, theres a whole, uh, theres about a 100 albums there that I dislike. Oh, I know I like most music but these, nothing caught my eye there. Nothing did I wish I wish it had. I do like vinyl. I dont I never replace my needle. Havent in many years just let it let it grind the records down to dust. Yep. I got a got a lousy stereo so, uh, so that it, yeah, CDs sound just like records. It all sounds bad. Yeah, it all sounds bad on my stereo if I had a good one, I couldnt play my records. Uh, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues to country whatever whatevers good I like. Not not the genre. I just like good music. You? Im going to the opera tomorrow night. To the Met. Yep. No, uh, Monday night Monday night Im going to the Met. Romeo and Juliet. Should be nice. No, its Gounod. Yeah yeah. I love opera. Cheryl, what do you see? Oh, thats nice. I like that little sweater. OK, take care now. Its a little beat up, yeah, its got a little stain on it, yeah. Thats pretty. Ew, its a little expensive, isnt it? Well, that was fun. I Im not that crazy about it. Im not like, whoa, you gotta get it. 2 or 3 dollars Id say its cool but I dont it doesnt doesnt look that good. You think so? Cher, you ready. You think there might have been medals? Look theyre gone! Ghost Motorcycles is finished! Wow! Wow! Thats the end of an era, huh? Ghost Motorcycles is completely gone. Wow. Yeah, Cher, you have a point I totally agree with you, you know, old habits are hard to break. Uh, old habits are really hard to break. I can get it under control sometimes and do pretty good. One

outburst is one too many and I agree with you. Um, but its better than I usually am. You know, I just kind of anger toward my sister I cant say I would be lying if I didnt if I didnt say I wasnt getting getting some pleasure out of getting her riled, you know, I cant, you know, stand her whole kind of mellow and cool and stupid attitude towards things and if I can rile her, I mean I know its wrong, but, you know, if I can do these things I, you know, get some kind of a, uh, definite pleasure out of doing it. Its not right, but it is honest, you know, and I appreciate you making me aware of it and hopefully Ill have the maturity to get over it, um, you know, sooner than later and it wont become an issue, you know, because its not good for anyone it just makes everyone real uptight and it reinforces old behavior patterns and, you know, every all that stuff is crap and um, you know, I tend to agree with you on all that stuff so, should we just just bop into this funny place once quickly and then well go back to my folks house? You know, so one, you know, after that once its I agree, its one too many times to be doing that, you know, definitely. You know, I dont... You find anything? Theyre ugly. Yeech. I dont know, I mean, I dont know if we really need them. Theyre not so, no, these are all ugly. You like those? Batik? OK. You wanna get them? Cheryl, no I mean, some day, yeah, I mean it is cool but we have nowhere to put it. No we cant. Yeah, theyre cool. OK. Im gonna nibble on it while were shopping here. It looks looks good. There you go. I got one cent for you. There ya go. You want some non sugar chocolate? In there. This stuff. Cher, these I like. You like them? Would you like a piece? I got half in my pocket. Very good, thought. Theres no sugar in that, you know. Theres no sugar in that. The choc the chocolate bars. No, I dont see. What do you see? Cane sugar. Yes. I think theyre groovy. I think theyre extremely 70s. They

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are. Theyre cheesy, but theyre nice. OK. Lets just forgive each other, OK? No more fighting. Cause cause you youre just being hard. Yeah, lets just forget it, lets just...OK? Lets just say that well keep doing the best we can do and keep reminding each other to do a little bit better. So, its a little after 4. Well, some disappointing thrift shopping. Not much, huh? They are nice. Oy vey. I dont like cloth napkins. I always feel like every time I use them Im staining irreparably staining them. You know, cause Im such a pig. All the crap that Im wiping off my face stains the shit out of them. Uh, Im tired. Me is tired. Now, what openings are you going to tonight? Tell me, whats the schedule with you and Stefano? Is Stefano is Stefano a friend of Michael Joo? Now if were lucky we might be in time for Sue Gross and child. Yep. Sue Gross with child. What do you think? Arent these the goldenrod is turning yellow? The goldenrod is turning yellow the circus is in town. So are you disappointed that Ariana is actually a man? Well, it looks like theres no Sue Gross to be had here. My parents lawn looks lousy, aw. Hi, hes cute. Hi baby. Hi. It aint working. Yeah my Dad took it. To do some errands. My Dad. You love me, hah? You love me, hah? Now we actually if we walk to the station. Would you like to do that? Or would you rather get a ride? OK, lets go get some feud. Thats a nice table. Yeah. Hey, Cheryl look! Look whats look whats here. Look! Look! Fuck. Thats pretty neet, huh? And look! Yeah. Thats funny. In which bedroom? The one we live in currently? The one we live in currently? I have to get, all right? OK. Yeah were gonna make a 4:44. Would you drive us over to the station? Thank you. We didnt see any theres no thrift theres no tag sales going on this weekend. I dont really understand why. Hey there, kids. Mmmm, food was good today, huh? That part Ill skip thanks. What do you mean wanna bet? What do

you mean by that? Working holidays was the name of but you guys were going with the Grosss. Are you really looking to move down there? Yeah, but what about your house in the country? What about staying here? What about what about your grandchildren? Get all you errands your errands done? Fun? What is that, Max? What does the duck say? Yes. Youre a good boy. Cheryl just told me shed like to get a house in Soundview. Max, Max, what does the swan say, honey? OK, the swan goes like this. Can you do that? What does the swan say? Max, what does the swan say, honey? Sounds like being married. Hey pop. Bye. Is there a lot of comparisons going on at the Grosss? A lot of jealousies and after they leave ma, yeah. Yeah yeah, our is better. And Sue is gonna say, ours is so much more... OK, lets go. We got to make a train, baby. Good-bye Max. Step on it. Kids all helping out the father. Is he nice Dad? You like La Rosa? You have some was there something come between you two? Whats he a doctor? The little girl is adorable, isnt she? So Grandma was happy. All right. I mean does that make them happy or is she just saying that? They always say that like even when when when Cheryl and I went to visit them two weeks ago that was the highlight. Not a lot of things going on. Uh, listen were gonna run up cause we got just a minute. Listen, were on for Thursday. What are you gonna order? Jap chee. All right. The duck? Is he throwing some tantrums? Im about to throw a tantrum now.... There was a message from Alix. She wanted to find out what you thought about Richards show. She showed up late. And shes going to Tonys opening tonight. You look great. You look warm enough. That should be fine. You look beautiful. You got a yeah yeah yeah. Fix your collar. In that mirror over there, no, its a little ripped. Cheryl, Ill see you at La Paella at 9, OK? All right? Yeah. Bye. Yeah. Yeah. See you there then. Andrea hi its Kenny. Told

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you Id call you so I am. Uh, Im in and out. Ill try you again, uh, tomorrow evening. See ya, hon. Or email me. Im always there. Bye. The show closes tonight so theyre having a closing dinner for that. To a restaurant called La Paella on 9th St... Theres a problem with my eyes, you know. You know?... India in August... Youre so crazy... Its incredible... that I like... so Im seeing it everywhere... aw, well get there. So when have you seen Suzanne? Yeah, I havent seen her in years. What are you guys doing? Really? Great. Is Gary doing the race car thing again? We saw, uh, we saw you at Michael Smiths thing briefly. We have been around lately. What are you talking about? I dont either. Nor do I support it. So I have a feeling Im not gonna be able to find Cheryl in this space. So is there anything other than eyeballs? Wanna go look? No no no. All right... You want to... no Im not... is cactus still on?... Yeah... Congratulations. You know Cheryl grew up next door to Melissa. Yeah yeah yeah. I mean, weve known Melissa forever and we didnt make it to the opening but we took Cheryls entire family over there. Thats right, I was like, oh I know I saw Preemas work it looked really good. It was a really nice show I thought. No shes, Melissas really great. Where? Where is it going? Really? Cool, cool. I knew I saw something of yours around. Thats good. What else? Anything else? Good-bye. Good to see ya. Well, Id like to. Ill see you soon. Bye Susan. So good. The last and also you did this big party that I wasnt able to make it across the street from my office. And how was that, was that fun? Like a Saturday night with DJs and everything? Where at HERE as part of the as part of the show with Melissa? That was where you had that party? No. Yes it is. Put me on your mailing list so we know about these things. Do you have our address through Ellen or..? Do you do mailings or not really? Yeah, let us know. Let us know. All right. Ill see you soon,

OK? Testing. Testing. Testing. Testing. Again. One two. One two. One two. Whats more... please, please. Once more hello. Fresh batteries... batteries. Boar is off please come in... fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. This is awful I guess Im going to have to talk like this. Well, it seems like the mic is dead... diddle... yeah this is a test. I dont know if this can hear me or not. This is another test and Im not sure whether this can hear me or not... How you doing? Im going to Greenwich Avenue between 12th and Bank please. Uh, no go to 6th Avenue and go up to Greenwich and make a left. And well just go up Greenwich until we find it. Cause Im not sure where, I think yeah its got to be towards what do you say towards the end of Greenwich there? Yeah, might as well, its easiest. Thanks. Uh, I lets see were going to between Bank and 12th. OK? So, lets see, yeah between 12th 12th Street and Bank so yeah its up a bit. Yep, its 93 Greenwich. So, well well find it. Its somewhere up here. Yeah, so well just go up to 93. Yeah, no Im sure it is. Yeah, Im gonna Im just gonna hoof it, man, just just give me change for 6. It just Im running late. All right. Thanks. All right. Hi, how you guys doing? Sorry getting over here was like a nightmare. I had to yeah yeah, what can I say? Yeah, I figured I was gonna get some shit from you people. I had to get out of the cab and walk over here there the traffic is so awful. Yeah yeah. Sorry? I think the cabbies make too much money it cost me like 7 dollars to get over here from Houston and Broadway. Old fashioned, huh? Oh, it was my grandmothers 85th birthday today. Gotta look good for Grandma, yeah. Wow, theres a name from the past. Where did you guys go? Oh, where does she have an opening? Ah. How was it? Theyre back on Renwick Street now? Theyre back in that old loft where they started? I havent been over too. Yeah. Its where Paul Bloodgood had his loft used to have his loft shows over there

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up the stairs and they had that really really great roof area with that amazing view? 79 to 80? 34, 35, 36? Cause I went to, uh, Metro. It was nice, yeah. A little shticky but its uh, you know, I mean hes just really riding that border between kind of schmaltz and kind of expo curio stuff especially the little dolls hes got a piece downstairs with like 5 little dolls with projected heads its like I you know. Right right right. Hes really riding an edge there. It can go either way I think. Yeah, but Weg but Wegman just, you know, right if he. Right right. Yeah, right but no I mean the videos were clearly great and the get get rid of the dogs, Bill! They like dogs but get rid of them. So I kind of, you know, I had some problems with it I mean, theyre really nice objects these eyes. Theyre big theyre, uh, cylinders like, you know, about that size and theyve got his projections on it but what hes done is hes gotten very close up to just photograph and eye. And its also sort of interesting cause videos generally so flat it actually wraps around. Theyre theyre theyre spheres with eyeballs projected on to them and theyre very theyre really... it was noisy upstairs I dont think there was a soundtrack and the eye, you know, it was a human eye so it was constantly moving and flickering and looking every which way. Theyre very creepy and sort of powerful at first and the after, like, the 15th one in the gallery and theres a gallery of all eyeballs and its all dark, um, which the all dark sometimes, you know. Yeah, so I mean I think, you know, the upstairs gallery falls on the side its OK the downstairs gallery is like little dolls cheesy, you know, expo. You know, people you know, theyre intrigued they like it. Its very accessible, so. It was pretty pretty crowded. I saw a lot of people I knew. I, its very, good. The work looks great, yeah. Somebody nobody ever heard of but I think hes really kind of a great, in his own way hes a great artist. Cheryl cant stand it but I mean its

somebody whos so far off the beaten track. At Luise Ross. A gallery youve never heard of an artist youve never heard of but I the show looked really good, you know, its really... No, I think theres, no I really I really do think theres more to it than just symbols. Yeah, its just you being cynical. Symbols cynical. I like I like it. So, how long a wait do they say we have here? Theres one of these papers that I actually kind of like. One of these cheesy West Side ones that actually, you know the one has the one that has the like Harpers Index on it? The Harpers Index thing is actually no actually I think its called the Westsider? Of all of them I think its the most interesting. Cheesy is a great one, man. Fromage, supreme. No, isnt it? It it really its its so good. You guys live right near here sort of. Are you go come here you like this place? Huh, well, how did how did we discover it? The cheesy, uh. Oh, was this written up? Oh, no wonder why theres a wait. No wonder theres a wait. Last last Friday there was a... I dont know it. No. Really, Ive never been to Mexico, have you? Is it great? Weve got to go. I know, I cant I weve been to Tijuana I like your shoes, theyre very cool. Cheryl, look at these shoes. Arent they lovely? Where did you get them? My wife this big black lady in Penn Station with like 16 kids comp complemented Cheryl on her shoes today. She was like, yeah, is that right? The art world the the the the big black lady world coming back from the circus with her kids. Never never the twain shall meet except in Cheryls feet. You see, Cheryl, its the the bi-tonal color on those. The brown and the white. Right right. The brown and the white are attracted. We went to this thing called Cybersuds the other night which was at the Knitting Factory which was an Internet kind of networking kind of party thing. Exactly. Youve never seen a bunch of uglier guys in your life. The only uglier are the listeners at WFMU. Ken Ken Freedman

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said its flypaper for fuck ups. The radio station. Im like, why am I there? So Cy... Cybersuds was like like. Cybersuds was totally white. Its so white, it was so weird. It was so, right. Oh, Im still hungry. Im glad I didnt have to wait too long. You know, you know it was. Oh, now you know how it feels, daahling. Shes the worst. Im always on time. Im always on time. Im stuck on being there on time. Cheryls horrible. Grandma had like a lot of something on today, like, rouge or... She got a little pleasure in life. Too much Manischewitz. No, I poured her the biggest fucking vodka ever. It was a sick glass of vodka. Those old people can, like, Uncle David too. Uncle David who looks like he really looks like hes embalmed. Hes got that leather. Hes very pale. He looks dead. They can really suck this stuff down. Speaking of which, Id like a beer. What a nightmare. It sounds like a soundtrack, doesnt it? It sounds like a really bad soundtrack. Yeah, no no. Youre right. Nice color green though back there. It really does. Its very duji. See the what? Uh, blah blah blah... Suffer. What do you have thats veg for these guys? I guess... Hey what am I thinking of those things that, oh, tamales. Do you have them? For main course? He what? Me too. No, no really, Stefano. Hey did I tell you how nice you look tonight? I love your shirt. Were getting better. Were getting better. I like those tamales. He is thin. You know you look great you know you look so thin, Stefano. Ive been meaning to tell you that. He doesnt put weight on. Yeah but he doesnt put weight on. Like. So what is he, 140 now? I was like 180, 185. I was I was about 40 pounds heavier than I am now. I looked like cousin Julie. I was at one of these places with Bill Arning. Do they have one on, uh, Hudson Street? Do you have is this do you have one of these places on Hudson Street? What, you do? Its the only one. Yeah, well all well all grab them. I like canned beer. I real-

ly do. Really? Yeah I yeah I dont know. You know, Ive gone from like from like being one of those kind of microbrewery beer lovers like. Can I bother you for some jalapeno? Its the only one. Yeah, well all well all grab them. I like canned beer. I really do. Really? Yeah I yeah I dont know. You know, Ive gone from like from like being one of those kind of microbrewery beer lovers like. Can I bother you for a Heinken? Light beer tastes its I cant drink anything darker than this anymore. Do you like those microbreweries? Have you guys been to Republic on Union Square? Isnt that place neat? Its like so its like so totally stylin and, yeah, and the food is good. We like the models. Yeah, yeah. So wait a minute so heres a toast to both you guys to a great success of the show and great partnership. Congratulations to you guys. Great show. Cmon Stefano. Get your goddamned chip out of there, you know? You go awwww! Yo! Nice grab! Did you intend to do that? That was very nice. Youre a ballplayer. That was unbelievable. Wait how many, how many are there? Too much primary. What is it? What are you gonna eat? What is this? Do you like Lupes? Why dont you like it? When it was down below 14th? It was good. Yeah, I dont think its not nearly as interesting as it used to be. Yeah, me neither. The last time I went it was just, yeah, really downhill, yeah. Used to be a storefront, yeah. You ever go down to West Side Coffee Shop? On Church they used to, yeah yeah. Its so close to the gallery, yeah. Did you order enough food or not? Yeah, no theyre small. How big are these tamales? Theyre small? Ill have Ill have, uh, veracruzano tamale a chicken tamale, is that enough? Is that thats not enough. No no no no no theyre small you said, right? We dont know the portions, you see, weve never been here. Right well and if I right. OK. How about a side of rice and beans. Will that do it you think? OK, and a and jalepeno? Yeah yeah. If Im

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hungry well get some more. So what did Michael Joo do tonight? More. I never thought Michael was like a particularly interesting artist I mean I always thought he was somebody who was trying to find his voice. I like that. I thought the video was good. Hes such a nice guy, right? You like him? Is he cute? I agree with you. I didnt recognize I didnt even recognize him at your opening. No, with the long hair. Yeah, he was at your opening. I didnt even recognize him at your opening and Im like hes like, hey, how you doing Im like hi how you doing I didnt even know who it was. Is it? Is it? Are we gossiping or what? All right, Ill stop there I have more information for you but I wont tell you. No no no. Is she nice? What part of them before her? You know I think it was the book. Do you know her? But you know her. Yeah. How do you feel about her? Do you like her? Really, I think shes really crazy. Did you and Cheryl have that talk already? Oh, yeah, Cat. Right, I like Cat, yeah. Shes shes like really insecure and shes always flattering too much and shes flirting too. Flirty. I dont know you that well. I think shes a lesbian. I think shes a lesbian. No, I mean, everybodys everyones experimented. Very dark hair. Short, about Cheryls size, dark eyes, dark hair. Kind of a little pinched features. Sort of about down to here sort of sets a little bit. Who is that? Alix shes kind of quiet and shes kind of kind of cool and she takes a long time to warm up to. Right right. Um, Andrea not Alix. Im sorry not Andrea. Alix is right. Im thinking of Alix. Anyway, what I heard what I heard what I heard didnt live up to my image of Michael who I think is really sexy. The reality was different I heard. Yeah. Well, now I dont we dont know when this occurred. I like Roddy. Hes so nice, yeah. Oh, I know Helen. Sure, we all used to work for Allan McCollum back in the day I like Helen, sure. Thats how I met Roddy and Helen. Helen and I used to

work, like we were getting paid to hang out at Allans and we would just watch soap operas. She was so funny. I like Helen. Right, right. I like her. So, who else I mean, you didnt know Mary Jo Marks from the Graduate Center. I mean I remember Mary Jo went out to dinner with us but were you friends with Allan? I worked for Allan for years. I like him, actually I really like Allan. Well, he is I mean I would never want to be involved with him. Do you know Rich Leslie from the Graduate Center? Yeah, yeah. Hes a nice guy a little fat a little beard. Do you know Jennifer Borum from that group? So, OK, I know your whole group there. You know you know Michelle White? Yeah. Pasty and white and weird. Shes terrible. Now, lets dish now. Oh, Ill be I know her. Do you know do you know Monica Amor? I like Monica. She neurotic. I dont know you think shes bright? I think so. I was in the show that she put together in Caracas. Yeah, Caracas connection. I went to like her mother her mothers house. Oh, her parents are just lovely, actually. Theyre Spanish. Is she pretty? I dont think so. Shes sexy but shes not pretty. She gets these guys but. No, she doesnt do it for me either. You should have seen the guy shes going out with whos this this son of a diplomat. He was just gorgeous, I mean he was very pretty. Yeah, shes got the money, shes got the style. She doesnt do it for me, she just doesnt do it for me. So I know your whole group from the Graduate Center. Jennifer Borum, shes nice. I do know the name, Im sure I know her. Who? The name is familiar. Kim? I may that may be everyone I know at the Graduate Center. God, Shes been there forever, hasnt she? Is she going out with anyone now? Shes pretty. I think shes pretty but I have to be honest, I find her sad. I find her sad. Ive known her for so long, you know, Ive known her for 10 years and Ive sort of 10 years ago I really thought she was somebody who was really she was working

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this power position at Castelli shes doing this real intellectual thing shes very bright and I thought she was really kind of gonna go for it and become a major player of some import somewhere. And like like 10 years later shes still kind of, like, struggling. I know, but I would have thought that she I mean she I used to think that she was going to be very powerful. Yeah yeah. Well she used to have that kind of cold front but now thats kind of fallen off a little bit she used to have that Im Im Im important front. Uh, basically. Was that a good group? She should be, I mean, I always thought he he cheated on her all the time. Oh no, I mean, honestly. No, it gets complicated, it gets very with personalities that we all know. Well, he was actually a nice guy to work for. You ask anybody whos ever worked for him. He was, you know, he treated his workers well. What can I say? Oh yeah? Whats she doing? Oh yeah, were dishing. Her. I think shes gay. I I think I think shes a lesbian. Really. No, the new cat. No no she moved to a new place and shes got a new cat. Shes got a new cat. No like a woman that shes like shes completely bonded with and is in love with. Right right right. No, she wasnt. She was defending Claudia. She was defending Viv, kind of more dikey. Oh this is a little Total NY girl, ohhhhhh God. All right Stefano. Is she is she sexy on some level? Ive heard, I mean Ive heard from those who have actually been there that shes actually got a great body. No no no I mean Ive talked to gym gym friends. I used to always ask Cheryl... No, but we no but the rumor was that we we both think hes very sexy Michael but it didnt live up to the to the, uh, visual experience of Michael. I think hes sexy. Dont you? No Michael no Michael right. No Michael could. Yeah yeah. Youre right. Long hair and suits dont work. You look like a dick. Youre right, no, you look like a dick. If youre wearing a suit. I, but I felt it. When my hair

was very long I felt like a dick in a suit. I really did. I really did. I just knew, no Stefanos right its just. You remember I had my hair very long, dont you? Salami curls. No, I looked like I looked like Kenny G I looked just like Kenny G. Wanna see? Ill show you a picture. I sure do. On my li on my drivers license. Babe! And on my radio show I am Kenny G, thats my DJ name. Is that my weight on there? Yeah, well I was. It was all heavier. Oh they dont? Yeah, they used to. Stefano knew me back then. I was fat and I had long hair. It was a pity, yeah. I get all this fan mail. People on the Internet think Im Kenny G cause they do a search for Kenny G and they come up come up with like my homepage and a mailto and I get all this email like the one the best one was from Korea. Kenny G I think you sexy you do for me. Remember that? Thats, uh, broken English like youre really sexy. Yeah, my homepage is called Kenny Gs homepage. So they think its all I got fan mail from Mexico I mean its really weird. I saw you in, you know, in Chihuahua or something. People on the radio they get so upset at FMU because FMU is all hipsters so that the fact that they have that they have a DJ named Kenny G, you know, really rubs people the wrong way. They get so upset. Yeah. Right. Like hi, Im Kenny Goldsmith. I mean or is it hey, Im Kenny G at FMU, I mean, whats cooler, you know? Ken. I never was called Ken I because it was it was it was. When I was a kid I got so much of that I would never be Ken. Like for work or something? Yeah. Hi, its Ken Goldsmith. Like you get in. Steve. Do you ever do people ever call you Steve? Steve sounds like, oh, Stef is nice. Steve is like like sounds like a male porno star. Im sure people over the years have tried to call you it. What does your Mom call you? Who called you Jane? Janey. Oh, Jan, right. Thats our age. Were plagued by these things. Kids coming up now have a whole new group. Did you guys

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read that article on Mason Reese in the paper? That was the saddest thing. Cheryl almost cried I mean we all read it! That was the best article ever! Cheryl what was the what was the. Babe, yeah. Yeah. I said to David picture analysis here is a she club and he still looked like an asshole. What is what what what was the saddest line in the article, Cheryl? Cheryl had the saddest line in the article about his fingers or something? His stubby fingers? I know, do you think hes getting laid now in the club? You think hes getting laid at all now in the club? You know have you I walked by that club the other night and actually the door was open I kind of peeked in. Yeah, the Milk Bar, right. Well what about what what was the name of like Gary Coleman what was the name of the show he was on and also the old Willis also got fucked up and Kitten Kitten robbed stores. What was her name, Kitten, right? What happened whats going to happen to Macauly Culkin? About his parents? Yes I did about his parents. I loved that. Its its so sad, like, horrible divorce, yeah. Right right and and the younger one the younger like sort of sinister, yeah, its bad news. Yeah yeah. I think its bad news. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well what was the younger the younger kids name, like he was sort of a star? I mean Macaulay Culkin. Right right right. Yeah, hes got a theyre trying. I thought he was in his day he was adorable. I love it. I love both of them. I scream. Really? How could you hate that? It was the best movie ever. Does she like childrens movies? I love them. Did you see Babe? Wasnt that great? Bah ram ewe? I loved that. Bah ram ewe. Yeah. You are. Hes a babe. Take your jacket. Does that mean were together? We can share suits. Ken. Tacos Stefano. No, thats it. I want my jalapenos. Childrens movies? I love them. Did you see Babe? Wasnt that great? Bah ram ewe? I loved that. Bah ram ewe. Yeah. You are. Hes a babe. Take your jacket. Does that mean were

together? We can share suits. Ken. How did they make the duck talk? Wasnt that just incredible? It was unbelievable. And animals. Oh no they were real animals, they were. Many animal trainers. Oh Stefano, youre so cynical. What do you mean there were no animals? They were all animals. There was a little bit I think less than youd think. Two tamales and some rice and beans refried shes got. We both got oh Cheryls got the refried. No Stefanos got the refried and I got the black. I did. I got two tamales. The ser I guess they werent ready for the New York Times crush. I want my I want my jalapenos and some rice and beans refried shes got... We both got oh Cheryls got the refried. No Stefanos got the refried and I got the black. I did. I got two tamales. The ser I guess they werent real... You enjoyed that? It was weird, wasnt it? No. What a weird what a weird movie. Can OK, any other beers besides my Tecate? Thanks. What did you see? Oh, Im going tomorrow night no, Im going Monday night. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we do, yeah. Oh, thats great. Im glad to hear that. Great great great great thats a good rec yeah. Yeah, we go we go to the Met all the time many, like Im an opera freak. Stefano, you can actually go and understand it, cant you? And we go. No, its something nice for us to do together and she pays. Oh, thats one way and the other we have orchestra seats and the other and other way I get to go is. I like the Grand Tier thats where we saw La Boheme the first time. Oh, it was great. Yeah we just get 20 dollar seats and we sneak down and the other way I get to go is that John Lee, his father is like 80 and he had a stroke hes been a subscriber to the Met for about 50 years so hes got row D orchestra and he never wants to go and John cant stand opera so he calls me to ask me all the time if I want tickets. Which is amazing its I mean youre really you know youre really I mean youre we we sat next to

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Renata Tebaldi when she was in town. We sat right across the aisle from from La Tebaldi. Nope nope. Yeah we saw her in Makropulos Case. She was good though. The food is good. Yeah. Oh really, where was this? You dont do that. Did you actually tie it and untie it? Greek. Stefano, like did you ever hang out in the clubs? Not even in the late 70s early 80s or? Oh, rock clubs punk clubs and stuff in the late 70s? Yeah. Where we you hanging out in in 79 80? No, you were working in Soho, right? Yeah, I graduated high school in 79. Werent you and Bill Arning friends in high school or something? I mean cause Bill was in a rock band hanging out in like Club 57. He what? I remember them. I remember you told us this. Yeah. When I went to NYU in 79 to 80 I worked at The Jack Gallery. Perlow, shes now got her own gallery. She was god she was really we were selling like, yeah, she she was the director, yeah, and I was the shop boy there, yeah. She has a gallery, right, yeah. She has a cheesy gallery selling the same kind of crap she was selling at the uh, and it was where NaNa shoes is now. Back in those days West Broadway, you know, remem I mean it was there was hardware stores. There was a lun a luncheonette on the corner of Prince and West Broadway, yeah. Huh. Yeah, I got fired from there because I lied about my age. I said I was older to get the job and somehow she found out and I was fired, yeah. No, she was a very severe Austrian woman and we did not get we just did not click. Yeah, no, my hair was down to my ass I was tripping on acid everyday, we just we just didnt get along. No, I remember Stefano that back then West Broadway, I remember one day being really really high on acid and it was a bright sunny afternoon and I remember walking down West Broadway and then like West Broadway between Prince and Houston on the left side of the street where they have cheesy galleries now they had like the Vorpal Gallery which was just

as cheesy back in 79 and I recall seeing these Plexiglas sculptures and seeing the sunlight hit these cast solid Plexiglas sculptures and they no but I also remember cast resin, yeah, right and it was also the the and I remember though feeling that it was cheesy that it was cheesy then, you know, I knew nothing about art but I knew SoHo was cheesy even in 79 and then they we would go down to the Holography Museum. Yeah. Remember that place way down on Mercer? Yes it was. Yes it was. No it was like Howard, right where Howard blows into it yeah. Right right. SoHo was still cheesy. Thats my point it was still it I dont remember SoHo when there wasnt the Jack Galleries or Food. I mean Food was a cheesy place. Right. But you must gone there. Well. Matta Clark opened this gallery, uh, Food? I didnt know that. Yeah by the time we all arrived tour buses rolled in there, yeah, it was bad. Its not like the Vorpal Gallery resin sculpture. Yeah well there was time when Fanellis was hip too. I cant remember it. You dont remember it. Its always been hor... Did we see that Cheryl? Yeah. All right. Oh wow, that sounds great. Yeah. That sounds good. Which wheres the Spring St. Bar? On the corner? The one thats been cut in half? Yeah, but Im sure it was different looking maybe. Mel and who? So listen Berrys. Nick Sheidy, uh, where does Nick go now? I saw Nick today, man, for the first time cause we live near Berrys I used to see Nick, man, I used fucking as recently as a year ago I used to see Nick literally crawling out of that bar. I mean it was. Nick is so sad. Nick was at our wedding as a date as Kathleen Cullen. No. What is what is it for? Ah! He fucked her! He fucked Keiko. He is a guy who she fucked and she said his balls smelled like Cheerios! This is pure Andrea Scott. The circle has come weve come full circle. Weve come right back we met we met with Keiko. No, shes said... What? We were in a restaurant with her and he

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walks in and she says oh here comes Cheerios! What does that mean? Whatever that meant that nutty taste! Yeah, they were real nuts! No wait wait. Now whos fucking Keiko? Oh, Nick. Oh thats so funny. Keiko swimwear. Its so funny. Oh, my god. Its terrible, its awful stuff. She was a client of his and they they slept together and had this big falling out. And then he gets these total babes, like Andrea. Dan goes out with models. Yeah yeah. I mean her bathing suits are... Nick Nick is a well, I mean, I cant talk about it you can talk about Nick. Nick Nicks a nice guy, you know. No, I dont know what Nick was like to work with day in and day out. Probably sad. Was he just dysfunctional at Sonnabend? No, we always thought it was bizarre. He had all this history that he was married to this black woman in the 70s and they lived in Fort Greene and Kathleen Cullen is the wife of Robert Mahoney. Nick by Nick? I wouldnt I wouldnt want to go in because Id have to talk to him for an hour. Is he still work there? I havent been there in a while I havent been there since you left I used to just go for Stefano. Now, I dont know. Does he still work there? Is that gallery still open? Hes the 60 year old boy at that desk. Which was when it was in 420. No, you were working in galleries that was 79. We went to a party once at Rons. At one point at one point he was sort of powerful. His skin getting all dried out too, Cheryl. Yes. Stefano, I remember Karin Bravin adapted her little system of triangles and circles in the date book. I said some really sick thing where you color in you you make a triangle and then for for a date thats to come and then if youve confirmed it you divide it in half and color it in like halfway. And I said to Karin, what what is this? Shes like oh Mary right right taught us to do this. Yeah, she was there with you wasnt she? Who? The older guy that Cat goes out with? I think Cats kind of sexy. No, seriously I do, I really do. No,

shes not my not my type at all. I like small, dark, ethnic women. However, shes tall but you know what, I mean, and Im never Im never even look but Cat for some reason she hits me right, yeah, she hits me right. I dont think that guy shes with I dont know him and Ive seen him a few times. Hes kind of older, kind of like 40s, mid 40s. Kind of established, I mean, together they look pretty lovely. Very tall shes very tall. Yeah. I think Cats sexy. What does he really? Really? He strikes me as such a successful looking he looks just like a businessman, yeah. Cats boyfriend. So long ago? You are. You know what? We are. We dont we dont look old but we are. We have a history. Really really? Where at Friends? At Collegiate. Oh my god. Really? Is he a good guy? Do you like him? I cant believe that the two of you are connected through George York. I like George. Yeah. Was he gay then? I mean, I know he is now, yeah. Thats funny and he came into your show but he has he followed your gallery? Really? Really? You mean that over all these years... Hes so nice. Of course he has he has to. Thats so cool. George. George was like actually he was really nice I mean, hes like really neurotic and has bad breath. Cheryl and I didnt... His breath would just get horrible. How was his breath today? No kisses or... Thats funny that he hasnt been in before. Was he proud of you how well youre doing? We we all have somebody like that in our past. I know your. Tom Moore. No, over all these years, you know, thats what people dont realize, you know, kind of, you know, some some dopey high school teacher is always influencing and shaping minds. Yeah, hes in it with his heart. Ah no, he did a great job at P.S. 1. He loved it, yeah. And look what he did. Obviously it influenced, you know, you in a really positive way, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Good for George York. Thats very cool that he came in. I like George. So listen, I could use a coffee. Should

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we go stay here or go elsewhere? We... yeah. Where is that, yeah. Well, we could do both. Oh, it or at, uh, wait. Oh, at Orleans. Bleecker, wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute, Bleecker. I know Bleecker between 6th and 7th youve got like like Faiccos pork store. OK, so where is Orleans? You wanna go over there? Is it happening now? Why dont we stop by, say hi. Sure. Now, do you have to go take your show down tomorrow or what? Starts at two and its gonna go at least till 6 and then Bruce and Sally want to go out and get a bite afterwards so. Tomorrow afternoon. Two in the afternoon until 6. Why dont you just go in the morning? Well, are you gonna be there in the a.m.? Like, what time. And you and if Stefano lets you in at 11, you take down your show and then Ill meet you at Xenakis. Cheryl were gonna go to Michael Joos party. I mean, hes not what he was but but. Oh, its for Aki too. Ive known her for a long time. Shes wonderful, shes really nice. What? It is parallel, especially the art circle. No, Ive know her for... Ive known her for so many years. Uh, we were, then we talked about like Mary Jo and Allan and the involvement there. With Andrea. Thats good. Yeah. Good for Allan, good for her. I dont know, good for both of them. Shes ripped through guys. I mean, Ive met Ive known several people who have gone out with her and shes just viscous. Shes a man-eater, she really is shes completely a a she spits them out and chews she spits them up and chews them out. What do people see in her? What do guys see in her? No, I have no I have no. I cant tell you. Two guys that went out with her that I knew were weak characters. Shes not sexy. Right. Is it the same shrink? Was it the same person you saw? Yeah. Yeah. Right. She never spoke to you again. She hates you to this day. Monique hates you. Youd never even know. Wanna bet? She couldnt deal with Cheryl after that the fact they saw the

same doctor. Yeah, its like seeing somebody at the gay bath house. Would that be an embarrassment? I mean, well, Stefano youre here? Kenny, youre here? Oh, shes not too bright. Dont Mary Jo we have too much weird history, yeah. That you know who? Oh, I cant believe Mary Jo doesnt know her. Everybody knows everybody here. How is it that Mary Jo does not know Andrea Zittel? Really. Shes famous. Sure shes a famous, yeah, shes a very famous artist. The queen of fashion, yeah. The best story the best story Ive ever heard about Jerry was that like one time years ago when Cary Leibowitz was hot, right, had his first Stux show and he was really ragingly hot and he had a party at a McDonalds downtown like at Wall St. and and and everybody was going and Jerry came a little bit late and he knocked on the door and the guard wouldnt let him in. He thought he was some schmuck going to get a burger! He and Jerry never got into that party they turned him away! No, that was Carys sense of sense of iron irony. A bizarre man. Rook. Named Rook. So so Akis a friend of yours. What happened to Rick Franklin finally? I havent heard just just update. I want a quick update on Rick Franklin. I know she dropped him cause it was too much for her to deal with I know that. Where is Rick? Where is Rain Man? Really? Really? He made Rain Man art after his accident. Matches. I knew him before the accident. I knew him before the accident. He was a bright guy. She did, oh, I know, well it was taxing on her. I saw Ri... I saw Rick at a Merce Cunningham concert and he and it was so... I like him I like him. Just rip guys. Its how you say it, yeah. So she dumps Rain Man, what happens? I knew him he used to work for Robert Longo, this whole group of people I knew. Work for Longo. Rick was. Oh, I like Michael. Hes a bright guy. Whos Pam? I knew Michael then. Michael was a funny guy. OK, see. See see, uh, Rick Franklin Ill tell

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you what was Ill tell you what was the problem with Rick Franklin and and knock and the knock on the cured him. He was a he was a really really really mushy Leftist. And it. He was like he was a total like dopey anarchist, you know, like like yeah. Aki was hanging out with the World War III people and Rick was in on that and he was really his politics were just totally annoying. He had no after the knock after the knock on the head there were no politics. Seriously that was it. I like him a little bit better he was really annoying, man, I mean his fucking Leftist shit was I mean I dont have anything against Leftists its just this brand of he was East Village anarchy. What the name of that band? What was the name of that? Missing Foundation. Remember Missing Foundation. This was this was. Oh, they were like these stupid like like Tompkins Square Park anarchists that Rick and Aki allied with. Save the park? Yeah. Oh, I didnt understand it. Now I get it. Oh my god. Clear the parks, mate. Oh god. Clear the park. Oh bummer. Bummer. Aw god. Rick Rick was even worse. He was even worse. Michael Minelli was never Michael was never had politics. See this was the old days when we were hanging out at ABC No Rio and Longo was like curating nights there and and and all these assistants of his which were Rick. Uh uh. So, how is Michael Minelli? I mean I havent seen that whole group I havent seen in years but I like I just... right, it was like they were all living in their communally back in the day of Robert Longo. It was Rick, Aki, Mike, there was this guy also that you probably never heard of named Nick Arbatsky. Sure you never heard of Nick. He dropped out he did a Alaskan oil spill project his big claim to fame he had this big fund-raiser so when the Titanic crashed out there in the waters the oil spilled all over the Valdez he went up there with canvases, right? Everybody chipped in he had a big party. He went up

there with canvases to try to make like oil Valdez soaked. And he came back, man, and this. That was a good idea. And then he had a coming back party so he could show what he got. And the guy comes back with like, we figured he would have like these dripping, rich canvases, you know, like birds plastered. They were like these canvases he kind of drew on a little bit and and and. No no there was no tar. It was the most like like Helen Frankenthaler washes and it was his impressions in it and that was it for Nick, man, that was the last you ever heard of Nick. Nick was like like like pegged to be the next huge thing in those days too because of that project. And and the Village Voice might have written something about him. So, have you read the Voice since its free? I I hate the Voice. When did we stop reading the Voice what year? Yeah. Everybody once, yeah yeah. Well we picked it up because it was free and its the same thing. Its like a clich. Oh my god, yeah. Much better. We like Time Out. Yeah, the ad is good. Yeah. Theyre very good. Or the one with the... yeah, I remember that I remember that. Theyre very good. The other good one was was was long walks in the park lots of friends and sometimes your dog has a better life than you do. Are they better than the Dewars ads? But we we have to like the mens group one. I love the. No no not the goatee thing I know you liked that one. The hugging the tree the tree hugging one? I love that one with these big fat guys bang in business suits banging drums. Doing yeah yeah. Theyre theyre sort of clever. This ought of fit. Artificial. Yeah theyre theyre women at Cybersuds the other night didnt like those ads. They thought they were very misogynist. Or the other one was like honey if you can answer honey do I look fat in this then youre ready for. See ah thats good. Oh oh oh, OK. Its a picture of a woman looking in the mirror looking really upset and and and the

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type says and the types says if you can handle honey do I look fat in this then you can our drink or something. Right. Right. Right. And every man has to hear that. Yeah. Then you can deal with our drink, yeah. Well, no this particular aspect of your woman. Well, yeah, but then yeah, like yeah honey you look good. I like that I get cause obviously obviously this is something that Janet ne never says. This is something you never say. You never put an outfit on look in the mirror and say Stefano do I look fat? Right. So you should have gotten the ad then. Obviously she doesnt cause you dont cause you didnt get the ad cause she doesnt say that. Oh man. Like anywhere from 2 hours to 4 hours. The best thing is not mine, man. Cmon. Lets go. It doesnt take 4 hours to brush your teeth though. How long does it take to wash to wash the face? Cheryl sits there with like with like scissors snipping at little bits of her hair like the minutiae on her hair like like a like an eighth of an inch from somewhere every night. Lets make this personal. Do you have an eyelash curler? No. Whos Quian. That Quian, oh god. What do you mean she did the makeup for you? Oh and you know her through Ashley? But at this point was she with Currin or...? Well, whos she with now? Now Johns with that Johns with that ridiculous. John is with the guy that that. No, no her name is not Gretchen. The woman who used to work at Bar Six. There you go. Where she did the plantings. No but that was a show where my piece fell off the wall too. I was in the, uh, Dans and I got a call from you guys saying youre piece is falling off the wall because it was, uh, summertime and the tape was all coming off the I had to come in and staple it yeah, I do remember that thing. That woman is just insane that Johns with. Yeah, she is plastic, yeah, thats a good way of putting it. Yeah, shes plastic, yeah. You have seen her she. Really those legs. Oh youve seen her, yeah.

Cheryl what is her name? She studied with Suzanne at Columbia? No, its not Gretchen, Stefano. What was her what was the name of that very expensive, uh, boutique on Wooster St.? No no no APCs on Mercer. Wooster between Prince and Spring the one on the one on the west the east side of the street next to Stephane Kelian? Comme De Garon. John Ill never forget John Currin like like finally sold a painting and and and spent the entire dough on one Comme de Garon t-shirt and had the gall to wear it inside out so that the label was sticking outside. It was like a 900 dollar t-shirt. Fucking bunch of assholes. We hung out with those guys for a while, oh what a bunch of losers. God. They were the worst. Now I have I have an APC suit nothing wrong with APC. Yeah. Thats great. Stefan Stefano loved it. I have this story that youre gonna adore. I went to APC I buy this suit its like a 3000 dollar suit on sale for like 400 dollars or something. And its really baggy, you know, its like one of these real like well, you can describe it. Its really cool and its really kind of big and kind of boxy. Very boxy. But not not sort of architectural, kind of organic boxy. So, anyway, it is a little big for me I need the sleeves taken up I need the pants cuffed and so Im roaming around SoHo Im like, where should I bring this thing, I was like oh, I have a great idea. Ill go to that really old world Italian tailor underneath 303, right? Hes hell understand this is like a cool Italian suit. Well the man, but the man doesnt speak a word of English. So I bring the suit in to him and Im like, OK, Im sure hell do a great job. He takes it and he starts like pinching here and doing this and I and I dont think much of it, you know, he starts pinching here and the whole thing is like, you know, yeah yeah yeah hes mumbling to himself and starts like taking the pants and like pinching it like major, you know, and I was like, oh, I guess he knows what

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hes doing, you know, he knows what hes doing. And I go home and I tell Cheryl what he did and basically Cheryl translated it into hes trying to make it into a three piece Wall St. suit this is. Well its like I go home its like its like midnight and I say oh, I brought my suit into the tailor shop I told Cheryl. Cheryl makes me pick up the phone at midnight and of course we call the guy there. And of course, hes not there, so Cheryl says we have to go up there right now and get that suit away from him. We start ringing the buzzer at like 12:30 right there and of course its like August and nobodys in the streets. I mean its like 95 degrees. We wake up the alarm goes off at like 6 a.m. Cheryl goes we gotta get that suit. We stood there pounding on the guys doorbell finally waiting for him. He finally shows up and then we finally like Cheryls like we want our suit back. He didnt cut up the suit and fortunately it was safe but man, do you know this guy? And. 200, yes, and you were speaking Italian with him and he... what do you speak it to dogs? Yeah, what do you mean you dont speak but what why dont you why you dont speak to people who are native Italian speakers? But if you sense that theyre native Italian speakers. Why, cause dont you feel like you could, you know, cojeen, get a kind of cojeen, get a kind of a... no because if you... Thats why thats why I asked you for a good Italian restaurant. But I figure you you could go into this guy this Guiseppe the tailor and you could work it up in Italian and you could get it... the, no, wait whats John Currins girlfriends name? Gretchen. Guiseppe. No, go they go to Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. Arthur Avenue. You know Arthur Avenue in the Bronx but you know its very Italian. Happy holidays, guy. I think you could parlay your Italian speaking into some great discount somewhere. Cheryl, Cheryl. With that Italian accent of your you can really make

some money. Really. So, Da Silvano is the place downtown. Wheres San Dominico? What do you cook? Really? Really? Oh, you dont cook you dont cook Thai food. No, not you but one does not you go to a restaurant to get Thai food. Really? Really? Really? Where did you learn that? Really, thats tough. Rikrit is a good cook. Rikrits a very good cook. Those curries are excellent. Well, weve been to these weve been to these parties where hes cooked for very few. Yeah, no the small parties those were good curries. Yeah, before Rikrit was famous his cooking, you know, his cooking was much better before he was famous. Yeah, where? They must look at you like your the only white person whose ever been there. You must be the only English per, uh, white person thats ever been there. Which? Is Kelly and Ping, OK, first of all, does that Kelly guy annoy you? He he bothers me. No, no I see him tooling around SoHo on his bicycle I hate I know I know he really bugs me, man, right no. Hes hes hes really he looks like Brian Little. Hes a little kind of hes got wavy wavy blond hair and hes always like very preppy very WASPy. OK, hes got Kelly and Ping, hes got the place on Spring St. Khin Khao and hes got that new Japanese joint. The one on Prince St. across from Raouls. I Im glad you find him annoying. Oh its really I cant stand that guy. When that when that place first opened, yeah, Kelly and Ping yeah it was interesting yeah it was reasonable. I dont know it might be he reminds me of a real sort of hes a co, like this colonialist, you know, he is, you know, thats what I get the sense of this guy like the British like the French, yeah yeah. Is there any is there any Asians there? Have you seen him with Ping? Yeah, so I I see, shes like the typical Asian woman keep her keep her in the kitchen, yeah, I get it. Seriously I mean its massive colonialism. How do we like that. This is the thing that my mother was talking about its

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above that SoHo organic place on Broadway next to the Nat West Bank. Is it really cheap? Is it like Gourmet Garage? So its all like dry goods? All right, well have to go up there. Is that is that like major hype or what? Provisions, yeah. I know Mosco. Mosco. Yeah its one of those little like alley streets in Tribeca. Do like Gourmet Garage anymore? You really I dont like going in there you I mean I run into too many people I know its like totally like... Wheres that? Do you like Lemongrass Grill? I was there they gave me they served me like a great dish with a piece of glass in it. I just about cracked a tooth. They gave us the meal for free. It was unbelievable, man, I fucking I bit down I was like oh shit. Yeah, it almost it almost died and but any but I do like the food there, I think its good. No. Really? Glass. I tell you, I bit some terrific porcelain. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, why dont we just go right to Michaels what do you think of that very impossible to get into Japanese place next door to next door to Lemongrass? Whats it the name of it its very popular then it moved to a bigger place? Where do you where do you adore Japanese food? Hasaki? Oh, Takesias great. Oh, the one on 3rd oh, 7th, like the one above Kims? Like the one down on 3rd St. is good too. You ever go to Hatsuhana? We get taken there like major times. Its good. Omen is great and I think Honmura An is terrific. I think thats a great. Oh, is that right? I never would have thought to have Blue Ribbon sushi. Oh, right, the one the one right down the block, right. Well, A.G., has A.G. taken you out to any major meals lately? A.G. takes us out to major the regular blue oyster Blue Ribbon oyster an insane amount of food with A.G. Down that Blue Ribbon one is good? Is that Blue Ribbon sushi good? Is it very expensive? Is that right? Whos Garland? Oh, I dont know Matthews wife, right, I only know Matthew. Oh, so you guys spent a fortune? Thats too

bad. When someones taking you I go to Omen like like a, you know... lunches are affordable there. Thats a quite beautiful Honmura An, its just a great place. I could eat that, I mean, you know, I Im going to really admit something really low down. I like these fast food Japanese joints. I like I like Teriyaki Boy. Oh really? Oh, no and then did you ever go to the place on 7th Avenue South? Um, like just a little bit north of Christopher St. and its a hole in the wall and they deliver oh, its wonderful. Which one did you go to? Ive had good stuff there. Maybe you guys ordered wrong. We gotta go to this place the new one that opened on West 3rd. St. the one with the boats? Its huge they they they they they put like 11 million dollars into this restaurant and the prices are no more than your average sushi joint its supposed to be really good. For lunch its supposed to be really really really decent and the boats float around you just grab... uh, probably like plate like dim sum. By boat, yeah. Yeah, dim sum I dont like. I think its too heavy. Lets go. OK. Uh huh. You wanna give him 15 bucks and call it a and call it a night? 93 bucks? 95 bucks? Thats a really nice tip. 95. That is thats 15, right, 15. OK, so we want to give 90 thats thats, uh, around 12, 15 bucks. 92? OK. Its, uh, 46 a piece. Fucking bank machines, man. Cher you got any smaller ones? I got some. 3, 4. I need 2 bucks. There you go. All right. He was sweet. We rode him. Its that time of the year, isnt it? Oh, I love it. Cheryl hates it too. It really, yeah, whats... Italy? Where is it? Janet are you freezing? Its really sexy, man, we got its a strip tease. We got to peel the layers off, weve got to peel the layers off Stefano. And what time is this early? And then she puts the radio on to go to sleep. You speak how is that speaker pillow? How is it? Is it good? What what station do you have on? Is it talk radio? Yeah, listen to Kenny G. Ill talk a little bit. Ill talk to you. Ill talk to you

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specifically. 2 to 6. I will I will I will talk specifically to you Janet go to sleep get your foot away from Stefano. Oh, I will. I will. Mornings are rough, man. Mornings are rough. Yeah, Im a Im a late night, yeah, Im a late nighter. Its a good thing you are together you and uh uh uh uh Stefano working together. Youve got the same hours. But you dont have to be in till 11. Yeah. No. I can, yeah, I can. Its what? Sleep of the just? Oh, god. What what this area? We we are going to walk down Bleecker Street you think this is bad? Wait wait till we get to Bleecker on a Saturday night. Its a new gallery. Its very very youd better watch out. Theres the competition. Yeah, these are these. The Riviera? Yeah, this got opened in 74. The Riviera has been here forever, hasnt it? Hey Lauren Wayne hi. Look whos there. Hi. Hey. How you doing? Were going to, uh, Michael Joos party. You wanna come? Bleecker on Bleecker between 6th Bleecker between 6th and 7th. Lets dance. Really? What are you? Whats a matter you dont want to get ahead? My grandmothers 86th birthday. We have to look for Grandma. Have a good time. Bummer. Abuse them. Abuse them. Joke, oh God, I can see the kids the irreverence of dinner is carrying over Im sorry I were back in the world. See you around. Reality crash sorry I mean were sitting here being really dishy and mean. It didnt work, were like cutting up the whole. That wasnt good. That was not a good comment. Abuse them. She got real serious. Boy, she really had no sense of humor about that one. Boy, I really bombed on that one. Ill never show in Lauren Wittelss gallery again. Now look at this place closed, this nightmare pick up singles horrible bar, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, its like Jersey meets West Village leather. Hey, were all wearing leather. Oh boy. I shouldnt go to this party, man, Im gonna have my ass kicked. All right. I will. Im just gonna like insult everybody. 6th and 7th on Bleecker.

Thomas. Is he sexy? Yeah. Everybody from New Jersey. Im sure... Can I buy you a drink the fat singer. So we dont we dont find Thomas Nordanstadt Cheryl is Thomas Nordanstadt sexy? Ohhh. The whole package is unattractive. He was coming on and flirting with several women that weve known. Oh boy. All right so. Leroy Street I think its not I think this is where Grandpas was. Seriously, remember Grandpas? Remember Grandpas that weird deli that...? Yeah yeah. Right I believe that Leroy Street and I Ill bet its on the corner, he said it was on the corner, right? I have a feeling this is the old Grandpas space. I know, nobody did thats why he went out of business. Yeah, I know. Yeah, lets cross over it is, Stefano, it is the old Grandpas. Oh man. Were at Grandpas. Here we are. Its the former Grandpas. Hey Graham, how you doing? Trying to squeeze in. What do you think? At least you can smoke your cigar here. Well, uh. Do you know a lot of people here? I know a few people. Do you like Lauren? Wittels? You know her at all? Good way to put it. Yeah. I just know her. I dont I dont ever go to her gallery. I dont know, you know, I just know her shes a friend of Andreas and a friend of Alixs. You know, just people that we know who know her. Great? Who who are you looking for? People... Theres Laura. La Taqueria. La Taqueria, it was very good. Congratulations. Major opening and major people. Where have you been I havent seen you in so long. What does that mean you had no place to live? Were you homeless? Yeah, a little too hip for me. We used to hang out with these people the first people we met when we came to New York was essentially essentially this group. Rikrit and Graham were the first people we met met here 10 years ago. Actually, I like both of them enormously. And that whole scene we were really that was that was Cheryl mentioned Laura Emrick, did you ever know Laura? Carter Kustera who

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was Kevin Carter back then. And it was too cool, I dont know I guess they were we we used to call them the bitter conceptualists. That was that was our name for them in the day. Kristen. You know her? Kristen Mosher? This is I mean this is funny I mean theres many years later this is actually the same group more or less. Aki or Rick some are successful some arent the nice ones are successful it seems like. Jackie McCallister was there. What? When Jackie became an artist it always, you know, it always shocked us. Its a lifestyle. Was he? He was always, like, a gallery person, wasnt he? Cheryls pointing us pointing us out. And then after that we started hanging out with the Yalies. You wanna go join them over there? Well, Janets sitting next to Douglas. Can you see her? Ive heard Ive heard rumors about Douglas. Sexual ones. No no no no, thats not my concern either Im just gossiping. That that hes got some problems in that department. We were just talking about... why are we dysfunctional? Douglass sexual problems. Thats what everyone talks about. Douglas Ive heard Ive heard more stories about him in that in that regard. So, hey, theres nothing to worry about. We might have heard it from Andrea Scott but, no. Who did we hear that from Cheryl? That Douglas couldnt get it up? No this was oh I think like Mary Jo must have told us that. Wouldnt be a bad idea. Wouldnt be a bad idea. Well, we might be the ones to vomit. Mean lookin. Ive seen that. Yes, Ive seen that. Weve seen this. Yes, weve seen this. Yes it grows and its never quite as big as the head. Right right right right. This is a good movie. So Grandpas really got got chic. Theres a strange confluence of worlds here tonight. Poland is represented. The artists staying in Poland. Yeah, theres a lot of those people here. And then theres a lot of bit old bitter conceptualists. I was just telling Stefano. Jim Lewis. Argh. What does that mean? God help you? Yeah

the whole world he thinks everybody is hitting on him that guy. Dont be flattered. Hello Graham. I can. No we shouldnt flatter him. We shouldnt inflate his already over inflated ego, Cheryl. Grazie grazie. Grazie grazie. You can bring me a drink. Im dying thank you. Thank you Im really thirsty. Oh my, so did you have dinner here? How ya doin Graham? I heard you guys had had a, uh, a little meeting of the minds about the current show at your gallery. Hows the show though. Were not thrilled with the show. What? What with Richards show? Oh, were talking about Richards show. I couldnt stand Dominiques show. This guy looks like he walked out of 1978 this guy in the leather coat. Doesnt he? I havent seen that look in 15 years. Yeah, the guy in the red shirt? Kind of like New Wave a little bit sort of Punk. Yeah I havent seen it in a really long time. Yeah. So Graham, whats happening with you musically? Anything anything new to talk about? Are you are you what are you listening to? Anything...? Doll. Oh, Gong. Sure did you go see them at the Bottom Line? Yeah, we love Gong. Yeah, I, yeah. I I heard mixed reports from that show. I heard Daevid Allen was really great? How was Gilly Smith, uh, Smyth? I like the Mother Gong stuff over the years as well. Yeah. Is it possible is there any water floating around? Like a 6 pack? Would it be possible for us to get a couple of hits of water? We are so thirsty its insane. Well I like I like, uh, Angels Egg and I like, um, Camembert Electrique. Its a great one. Yeah, weve been listening to a lot of prog rock. You like that? Yeah, were done. Were finished with everything except for the water. Thats great. Forget dont even change it well well stick with the cloth. Yeah. Just say 3 well drink it, thanks. Thank you. You know, um, classic. Hatfield and The North. Egg? Theres some good obscure ones that are really great. The whole Canterbury scene. Yeah. Have you been lis-

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tening to the Robert Wyatt stuff as well? I like it. Theyre very good, arent they? Wait wait. Matching Mole or Wyatts stuff at all? I dont find him depressing. Some of the early Kevin Ayers stuff is nice too. Yeah yeah yeah. I was playing this one on the radio the doctor, uh... yeah. FMU has all this old Prog Rock. Yeah, I dont have it yeah. If its at the station I dont need to buy it. Sure sure sure. Yeah, its lovely, isnt it? Its all... Thank you so much. Hey could we leave that pitcher here? Oh, thank you so much. And and a pedophile. Thank you. Yeah, I was I was at a bar the other night and some old Roxy tune came on and I was like, wow, this sounds good. Yeah, this sounds this sounds good. I forgot how good this sounds. Yeah. Well, but but but the stuff from about the stuff from up until about 70 up until about 72 was not was was sort of anti moralistic. Soft Machine Volumes One and Two are just indulgent and gorgeous and uh... theyre not glamorous. We have it. We have it at the station. What happened to your vinyl? When youre working you dont like to change the sides every 15 minutes? The girl in the red vinyl dress. Do you see her? I thought you might know her. She looks like she stepped out of 1967. She looks like she stepped out of one of Richards paintings. Sorry. Pardon my indiscretion. I showed them to Cheryl. I saw that one at White Columns. Cheryl went on and on. Are they better? Are they better? All right. I will. How was your opening the other night? Did you have fun? So, how was the opening? But didnt you didnt you guys have fun at the opening? You and Graham? There must be many shows that you feel that way about. Where is Richard? Where is the artist there? Yeah and maybe I should see the goddamned show first before I talk about it. Oh, it doesnt upset me I dont feel surprised by it. Its that bad, my god. No Cheryl Cheryl feels the same exact way. The exact same way. She was depressed last nite. Maybe

if you put on some Canterbury stuff with with those paintings youll really go right down the tubes. No, were leaving shortly thank you. I dont want to stay here much longer. It seems like the crowds thinning. So where are you now? Youre down Mercer St., right? Oh Lispenard. You have a loft down there now? How how big is it and are you alone there? Yeah, I know, I remember we talked briefly about it but I wasnt sure. How many square feet is it? Great. Nice. You have a view? Do you like that place? Good. Yeah, we went there it was very good. No. Yeah. Hey I dont mean to, Im sorry. And its cheap. Its a version of Tell Me Something Good. It is. Aw, well I I might want to hit the road there darling. Yeah yeah. Im tired. Ill stop up and see your dreadful show. Do I have to sign the book? Ill say hello to you but as long as I dont have to sign that book. Good. Yeah, I want to hit the road. All right, Graham. Ill see ya. Yeah, I think its about time. Im a little bit bored. This girl looks like my sister. I dont know Ivy. Dont know her. Doesnt she look like Margie? Huh? So yeah, I wanna I wanna get going I mean. If you want to stay Ill see you at home yeah. Its dull. It was really fun. Lets just do it again really soon. I mean that was a reality check when I said that said that to Lauren I was like oh man I cant. Im sure we will, Im sure we will. You gonna hang out for a while? Yeah. Where is she? Well. Where is she? I dont see her. I see about 15 obstacles that I dont want to have to say hello to on the way over there. Ay, Mr. Clean. How are you? The last time I saw you you were cleaning and cleaning and had a rag in your hand. I know. How did it go? How did she like your place? And you were cleaning on Thursday? I knew you were embarrassed when I saw you in your most naked and vulnerable moment. I might I I dont think Ill tell anybody. No seriously, everybody with a bottle of Windex? Yeah. So that da web is a clean place.

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Yeah, those windows looked like shit. Well you missed a good Cybersuds. It was so stupid. A bunch of yuppies. No really, it was terrible. Yeah. You like Claudia? Yeah, I cant figure it out. I cant figure her out. Im not Im not interested. I dont get that at all. Do you? Yeah. Hi strung, tightly wound. OK, shall we? Cheryl do you remember Benjamin with the Windex in his hand? Did you see the Windex the other wasnt that incredible? With the Windex. She doesnt clean her apartment she has somebody come in and clean her place. We were think Andrea have you been to her house? Its so clean its unbelievable. Well be there Friday. What time? Where do you live. Between? OK. All right. So what time. Friday what, after work? Well be there with a white glove. Well give you shit just the same way you were giving everybody else shit about their desk being clean. Ive never seen everybody was asleep at 7:00. Good luck. I know youre a whole. Yeah. The leather site. Go girl. Thats it. I like it. All right. Did you get what do they have to do with da web anyway? Total NY has to money and it trickles down to you guys? Thats the idea? I know that. I know that? With you guys? With Cheryl Donegan on your site, linked to it anyway. All right, were gone. See you soon. The lights are going out. Its finished already. You walked in, its finished. See you around, all right? All right cmon, cmon. Congratulations. Keep those toes away from you know who. Bye Laura. OK, we said good-bye to her. Didnt do a thing. So my microphone broke. 35 dollar microphone I think its still under warrantee. It just wasnt coming out clearly so I had to keep this thing running. Nam June Paik. He looks exactly like Nam June. No, its not a good move. No, its not a good move. Really, I thought the same thing. Oh boy. Oh, that was a good dinner. Those guys are really fun. Yeah, yeah. Theyre loose, you know? I mean they you can just say

anything. I knew it was a reality check when when I saw Lauren Wittels on the street I was like abuse those kids and oh no and I was like, oh boy. I gotta start watching what Im saying. Yeah. We can play it back and have laughs. Ive done everything from John Post Lee to Marjorie Perloff to to uh uh to John Newman to Benjamin Weil 3 times to Cybersuds Ive got it all on tape. Ive got one more fucking day of this and then its over, thank god. What? Yeah, maybe wouldnt it be funny Ill sort of say something to Swami? Oh boy. Hey there they are again. They are. Theyre in every window those those animals. Uh, god. So, that was fun. I like her, shes cool. Shes definitely cool. Shes... Ive Ive never seen this hor horrible side of her. Im sure I will at some point but I really have yet to. Lovely. What does that mean hulk? Is he fat? Yeah, he really looked like he put some weight on, doesnt he? Yeah oh, too bad. I like Benjamin. Hes so nice. Hes such a nice hes such a nice guy. He just, I mean I really like him. Whats his story hes just the run the guy that runs da web but what else about him? I mean he seems so nice and so loose and so goofy like hes one of the people that you dont know but you you feel like you know him and you can just joke with him? Like Im just just so free joking with the guy and I dont even know him? Hes hes really nice. Oh, we got 3 in the first thing in the morning Diane and Lois are leaving at 4 a.m. Oh who knows? Whatever. And then and then starting at 9 starting in the morning we got we got those mutts. Oh. That was funny what she was saying about his about the toes and his like well, shes she she gets affectionate and I dont like that! I know that. I get the sense shes a hot shes hot and and hot to trot and Ill bet and Ill bet once he once he gets going hes OK but. Hes I hes a funny guy. How about like I dont know we I dont know hes that was a good dinner. Did you have fun? Yeah yeah. Ah,

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shes outrageous Janet. Shes about as outrageous as I am, which I like. Oh, well, we were just dishing. Its all in fun. Weve said that before, didnt we? Didnt we? You and I have said that before. And I said after I said after the bump on I said after the bump on the head he lost all those stupid politics. Ah, fucking bending match sticks over, you know? I said well that knock on the head really got rid of those nasty politics of his. Ahhh. Yeah, Im just an asshole. Really, dont listen to me. Dont listen to anything I say. That Stefano is a funny guy. Well we had a lot of laughs. That was good. Ahhh. Oh, so I saw Gary Simmons tonight for about the first time in about 5 years. At Metro. He gave me a big huge. He was like Gary, you know? I havent seen Gary since the since around the L.A. riots was the last time I saw Gary which was what, about 4 or 5 years ago? And, uh, he gave me a big hug he was the same. We talked about Bets and Tiffah, you know, and I said hey, I hope I see ya sometime sooner than the last time I saw you. I mean, really, I have not seen Gary since the L.A. riots. I was at his house the day they broke out. That was that was it. Yeah, it was, yeah, no no that was the night of the day and the first thing in the morning it was going and I was at Garys and he was like, oh shit man, fucking shits hitting the fan. And I was, yeah, I was at his place up on Broome St. and then. I dont know, we talked for two minutes, you know. Yeah. He doesnt look as good. Thank god I looked when I cut my hair off. Ahhh. Another big day tomorrow. What? No this week has been particularly insane. I know. I mean weve just been non stop parties and events, I mean, its really been a weird a strange strange week. Im be glad to stop taping. How long do you think it will take me to type every word Ive spoken this week? Probably what Ill work on in France. Ill probably just sit there and transcribe all this language from this week. I mean its so easy to say words, you

know how long it takes to type the sentence that Im just speaking right now? A letter. Yeah, and how about just like gibberish? Ive probably got 36 hours worth of tape. Yeah. Yeah, you dont speak at night and then there are some times when Im when Im sort of quiet. Believe it or not. So who else looked awful at that party? Laura? Yeah yeah. She looks she looks ragged out to you? Yeah, yeah. I was surprised that I didnt see Andrea Scott there. Yeah yeah. I it looks like Alix is real not showing up much to the art things and yeah, well thats good thats really good, I mean, hes not much of the scene. He doesnt know anybody or hang out on the art scene so hell probably keep her out of it a bit which probably isnt a bad thing for her. Shes spent way too, putting way too much time there. What are you talking about? We were just at Andrea Scotts birthday party a week ago, two weeks ago. I mean that was that was about as art world as they get. I was also surprised that that somebody like Bill wasnt at this one, although thats not quite his crowd. The last time, yeah, just two weeks ago we were at Andreas birthday party and we smelled like smoke just like we do now. Ahhh. Did I keep stepping on your shoes all night? Everybody loved your shoes? What was everyone saying? What? Wait, theyre nerdy? Ah, theyre cool. Youre always a step ahead of everyone. Im sure we have Diane and Loiss message there on the machine sayin what to do. Cheryl, didnt I say whats that book doing there? Huh? Who wants to shower first. Go on. Oh, where did you get this for zing? Donegan. Hey Don. Donegan. I believe we have an appointment this evening? Great. Let me shower. Be right in. Well, that was a fun night. We were at that party just long enough. Just long enough. Who was who was good looking there? The girl that looked like my sister? I dont know her. Who is she? Huh? And what is she, an artist? Huh? Oh shit

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we forgot to get the laundry, damn it. Oh, we should of thought of that today. Oh it was amazing. A neat one, huh? Different one? That was good, huh? It had its own rhythm. Wasnt it? It was different. It was really beaut if was really beautiful. Yeah, it was very sensuous and beautiful. And fuh. Youre the best. This this one worked out. A love match. I love you monkey face. Isnt that a good one? Was that sensuous? Mmmm. Oh, we have to set the alarm, huh? You love the most powerful. Test test test.

I have to walk the dogs. Todays the first day. I have to walk the dogs. Today is the first day. Well, theyre rude. Yeah, Im gonna take out those mutts for a little walk. We have to pick the laundry, darling. I guess we can do it after the Xenakis thing I just dont have any much to wear. I guess Ill wear some nicer pants. Um, when? He sent us something a while ago. Oh, it was about his discussion thing on the web. I bookmarked it on the web. Ill show it to you there. It was I Im sorry it was addressed to both of us and I just, you know, yeah. BB yes. Yeah. And now its sort of a drippy, Ill show it to you. Hi. Good one, huh? What? How was it? Yeah. Theyre so weird looking, arent they? They kind of so slick and and bizarre, buffed up, you know, kind of his hair looks like its been like buffed with a car buffer. And she, shes just got that bizarre, yeah, her face is so weird, isnt it? English? Uh huh. Alright, Id better go. Start the week. Right? What did Rainer have to say? Take these cards. I I have so many cards for you. Please, take the cards. I saw Kirsten Mosher at that thing last night. I hadnt see her in years. You saw Laura Emrick? Remember we were just talking about her in, no, not Laura. We were talking about Stacy Godlesky. Right. Well Laura Laura like always looked so hard, you know? and bitter and shes had a rough life, you know? Shes, yeah, I mean years ago she looked hard and awful. Were still catty this morning. We had a beautiful love making session and when we wake up were nothing but catty. Catty b-hatches. Alright. I shall return. Well get ready and well go to vedantay. Right? OK, see you in just a bit. Uh, no, two are my neighbors. Here comes another one. Nope. Yeah, remember we saw them the other night and I told you I was gonna

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be watching these two dogs, yeah. I got these two all week. This ones male, right, this ones female this ones male and that ones female. Is the park closed up? Are they, like, shooting in there today? Is there nowhere to let these dogs run this morning? Yeah. Yeah, I think theyre shooting filming over here. Sure, he gets along with everyone. Theyll theyll establish it. Chavez? Is that you dog? Good name. Yeah, theyre very much theyre like the same in in temperament. I think theyre probably the same dog, yeah. Look at all these dogs, yeah. Yeah, theyre a lot of fun. Im stuck with them. Yeah, yeah. Theyre my neighbors. These are the neighbors that had Rocky. Yeah, they had 3 boxers when Rocky was living with them. Baron. Bets. Yeah, theyre alright. Its OK. Oh. She is shes really a little skittish shes like a really pure like, uh, show dog and shes really nuts. Shes really of all of them shes the the strangest. Yeah, shes real dumb, shes really stupid. Shes beautiful and stupid. Well, shes really incredibly bright and beautiful and Baron is really smart and just just hellish. Sorry? Hey, thats my dog, you know? Shes off the leash, yeah. Theres a dalmatian. Your dog smiles. Ah, hes about 6 and shes about 5. Im sorry 4, something like that. Babette. This is, uh, the male in Baron and this is Ginger. Hes sweet. Baron is a sweet guy. Yep. Shes a model. Bye. What is that how do those collars work? What does it do just keep them in a little bit? Is it is it work? Is that right? What do they run? How much are they? Is that right? And you find that its effective. Is that right, huh? And what is this yeah yeah. Yeah. Thats a good idea for these two. Bets, of course, is fine. Well, she was trained. She was like trained, uh, not to like ever walk in the street. She knows. Yep the whole thing. Shes never done, you know, shes 7 years old, been in the city her whole life and thats it, thats the story. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I had a trainer that some-

how and I dont even remember how trained Babette never to go on the be off the leash and never to go off the curb. I dont you know how you got trained so well, pal. Shes really very good, though. Well, I wish we could just take them in the park and let them tear ass for a little bit. Is that one shut properly? Yeah. That really sucks, man. Nah, its definitely closed. Theyre doing a movie shoot. Its definitely closed. Where does Rocky live? Hello. You know Diane and Lois? These are the two fawns are Diane and Lois and the brindles mine. Yeah. Yep, theyre all having a good time. Now we need to find Rocky. Is that right? Well, the parks closed today so we cant let them run. Yeah, Ginny. Yeah, shes skittish, you know? Shes overbred. You guys can handle two dogs? Yeah yeah. Yeah, I got 3 all week long. Im watching them for those guys they went away. I got 3 all week. How old? Really? Alright. I gotta get going. Ill see you this week Ill be out all week with all 3 of them. Yeah? Alright, so if we run into you Im gonna be watching all 3 all week so Ill youll see me around. Ill see you around. Take care. Happy Birthday to your dog. Whats your name again? Steve. OK, I gotta get that. Cmon you 3. Bets you gotta make? Make. Babette make. K. Babette, make. Make make. Good girl Bets, good girl. You make. Good girl. Hello. I love it, do you? Do you like it? Its a pretty intense session, wasnt it? Cheryl. You like it? Yeah, I thought it it built itself pretty good. Its hard though. You told me it was a little too hard. Yeah. Yeah? Uh huh. Yeah? Ewww, what is it, in the ass? Is it in the asshole? Is that what youre asking for? Is that what youre asking for in the asshole? Cheryl, asshole? Cheryl look. No, its very very very warm out, like, hot. Ahhh. I love your hairy ass. Wah, my microphones busted. So after Vedanta, do you want to take a walk through the park and walk over. Actually, why dont we walk over and take a walk

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all the way over to the East Side? To 92nd St. Y. That would be nice, huh? From Vedanta? Hang out in the park a little while? What do you say? Pretty. That looks nice with that shirt. Its nice. Yeah, but its Gap, but I really hope within 3 launderings its gonna remain. Its such a piece of shit. Gap is such a piece of shit. Theyre cheap and you get what you pay for with the Gap. Thats true, isnt it? Am I right? Uh, full of shit. It looks great for the first time, though. It looks good today. I this is a Gap shirt this is that Im wearing? Its a piece of shit. Real low quality. Can I turn this thing off? How are you doing? We should get going soon. Where did you get that? What flea market? Yeah, do you like that bag? You know whos gonna be the most green of all? Swami. Wait till wait till we let him know exactly how youre feeling about that bag. Hey youre gonna he he he you can tell Swami to carry it with his saffron robes, hell match too. Right? The only thing you need to do is change the belt. The belt looks cheap. No. I dont like it. Leather belt would would make it snap. Lets go. Thats dirty. The dog hasnt been around. It aint so dirty. Ill wait outside. A monkey... and how does the donkey go Max? Do I? Who tortures him? Do I torture the kid or does he do we have fun? Is he cute? Huh? Gray squirrel. Ahhh. Whats this? Whats with the arm swinging like that? Why? Ah, Cheryl I think we should go to the other stop. The train just came in its about 20 minutes for the next one. We just missed it. See these guys coming out of the stop? Dont be sorry. Its just the way it is. Ah, its gonna be a long time before the next one comes. I dont I dont think we should. I think its better if we dont, honestly. For intrapersonal reasons. For space reasons, right? See, heres what we should do after Vedanta lets walk across the park, right? And or and or before after have like breakfast slash lunch. What do you say? You know we could do it just around

Vedanta. Or we could go across the park and find something along our way. OK? That sound like something to do? Alright. Arianna. Is it a big scandal with Arianna? Are you upset about it? Who Laura Emrick said you looked like a prep? In a mean spirited way? Its mean enough. What did she say? What did she say? Who else did you see out and around? Yes. How did we do last night? How did we do last night? I was sweating like hell that blanket was just, like. I cant use it anymore. I was drenched. I was I was nude and I was drenched. For the meantime... What? Yeah. Alright, well. Why dont we take that comforter that my mother gave us we can use it for the summer. No but it but it breathes. Can we get one of those white ones? No, remember the white one that we had? That type of thing? We can sleep with a sheet. That sounds good. So, I think this week we should make the major shift of the clothes to your studio jackets and sweaters. Keep one sweater around in case it gets cooler but this is pretty much it. Well it wont snow again. It will probably become a little chillier but anyway we should get that stuff out, huh? Did you have fun with Stefano and Janet? Do you like Janet? What? Is she funny Janet? Is she a cut-up? You tired? Sweetie, you think we should get a cup of coffee before we go in? What do you mean no? You gonna you think youre gonna, uh, fall asleep? It looks like Harry, doesnt it? Doesnt it? Do you want to get a, uh, coffee before we go in? Uh, were gonna were a little early but we could get a coffee, sit and sip it and then come in right after the, uh, opening act so that we could stay awake for the whole thing. Do you wanna catch the opening act today? Cause you looked like you were falling asleep I mean, we could go and sit and have a coffee. You wanna catch the opening act? Whats the opening act? Wow, look at the trees in the park! Yeah, its so pretty. Wanna take a walk afterwards? I like them

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all. I like the color of that dog. She grabbed him. Oh thanks. You were thinking about your wardrobe during sex? Thanks a lot Cheryl. Thanks a lot. Kennel. Yeah. What? Yeah? One point, that might be nice. Lovely. Kennel. Kennel up. Kennel up, Bets. Shes thrilled. Shes thrilled to be there. Shes in total heaven. Even if they dont do anything for the next 8 hours, which they wont, shes so thrilled just to be in that environment. So coffee or opening act? Wait, what were we laughing so hard at the other night? The box the picture of the boxer in the frame. Thats what we were laughing hard at. Remember? You know, she looks him. How are ya? She looks just like Swami, doesnt she? You know I think of that every time I look at her. A little a little just a little bit. What time is the show getting on the road today? When he wakes up? No I got a new pair of the same old ones? Can I bring my dog next time? Cheryl. She was so happy this morning when she put this outfit together. Look at the shoes. Look at the shoes. I dont want to talk about it. Look at this haircut going on here. Hello. Cheryl Im gonna use the facil, Cheryl Im save me a good seat. Hello. Ive been here. I was here last week Ive been here every week. Sure, Im always here. You know what Ive got to do Ive got to get the address to tell everybody tomorrow night. And then we got to go across the park. I wanna get do it pretty soon, OK? We have a concert to go to this afternoon. Chagall, yeah. It certainly wasnt the, uh uh, the Jewish show, yeah. I did and heres my recommendation for you. Trash just throw out your software thats installed. Reinstall your software. Everything except for the browser. Take the browser out. Throw everything else out. Reinstall your software and put your browser into the folder. You I think theres I do this Ive done this before with AOL. Therell come up a dialogue box that says, you know, something if youre already a mem-

ber push here and theres a way in. Something must have corrupted. Just just just throw it out and reinstall it. Yeah, cause we downloaded that separately so if you throw out the browser it means that youre gonna have to download the browser again, like we did. And just remember where the browser in what file it was kept in just throw it back where you found it last time and you should be fine. Itll redo it all for you again. Sometimes it just happens. It gets corrupted. And I was when I was thinking about your message I thought it sounds like, uh, yeah. I think youll be fine. Pretty fool proof the AOL and if its ever busts, you know, you just toss it and reinstall it and it it works. It always works. I I went. Yeah, yeah. I went and looked at Swami Bruces site I read the article about him. Pretty fascinating. I I sent him sent the SVR, is that, SRV a note saying that while the content was very good on their site they need to learn how to make image files smaller because things were taking forever to load. Oh, it was ridiculous. It wasnt a problem with you. It was a problem with them. No there was nothing more for you and I wrote him a note I said I look forward to seeing American Vedantist online. Is that Bruce whose actually running doing the whole thing? Sounds like an interesting guy. The article about him was was was really Id like to meet him sometime maybe 4th of July if were in town? If were in town. We may be away for July and August. Uh, but if were around, yeah, Id like to just take a drive up some point and just see him anyway. Sounds like an interesting guy. Yeah maybe Ill just establish some contact with him. He hasnt written me back but but, uh, yeah hes, uh, interesting. I I was fascinated by the article. Hes a little a little bit of a rebel, which I always like. Uh, I think were going to be away, yeah. I think were gonna be away for July I think were gonna be away for July and August this year. Yeah, were trying to

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Cheryl is managing to finagle some kind of artists residency in in Beaujolais France so were hoping to do that. OK so John tell me what happens, uh, I think I think youll be OK. Well have him look at your Powerbook. So where do these go? Yep. Alright. Alright. Hi. Um, uh, shes inside yakking a little bit. Uh, no we have to get over to the East Side to the 92nd St. Y for two oclock concert so were gonna take a nice walk across the park. Should be nice. Iannis Xenakis, you know, Xenakis hes a great Greek modernist composer? Yes. Hes being interviewed at two and... yep yep. A retrospective of his works for the last 30 years. Should be good. Yeah yeah, thats the thats the famous, uh, place down there over there. The famous Jewish, uh... Yeah, why dont we why dont we walk down there and have a look? See you next week, babe. Are you guys walking this way? OK. It would clash with your shirt. How you doin? Good good. That was pretty nice. Yeah. Hard to sit in this nice day, though. Yeah. This is real bamboo, isnt that nice? Thats very wild. Oh its ama... yeah, its incredible. Its incredible. Wet napkin? Bob, when does the show open? Yeah. Oh, great. Great. And youll be gone for a few weeks? When are you going up there? Huh. Yeah? Where are you guys going? I dont know. I hadnt heard that. Glen, whats I didnt know there was a director. Glen. You need something nice on the East Side? Yeah. Yeah, I wish I could help I dont know any anything up there. Yeah. Yeah. Wheres your car parked, you guys? Well, shes. Thank you. Thank you. Shes ambling so why dont you guys... This is it. Its really nice, yeah. Yeah, finally. You know, last year toward the end they would open up the doors they would pull back that curtain they should do they should do that, oh, they should just... Yeah, its always stuffy. They should they should always open that up. You took him you took Swami our Swami to Princeton? Really? Was the

lecture good? Did the philosophers like him? Just you and him drove down together? Was that intense? Was it was it fun just you and him driving in the car? Did you have enough to say to each other? Oh, I cant wait to hear about it! Was it I well lets alright I wanna well lets have, you know, you guys why dont we just go out and get a cheap dinner some time or actually next week why dont we plan on on on what about. No, I dont like Spring St. Natural, no I dont like it. Why dont we, uh, plan on on, uh, what are you guys doing next week after? No no no. Next week after Vedanta? A week from today. You wanna go down to catch that big Indian brunch down on Greenwich St? No, next weeks the 27th. 28th. You guys wanna do that? Why dont we plan on that well hear all about that. I think that sounds terrific. What he was nice, though? Let me let me drag her away our time is a little tight. We got to get all the way over to 92nd St. See you later. See you, Bob. Alright, partys over. We got to we to get all the way over to the East Side. OK. That could go on forever. Thats so sweet. He done that napkin? Bobbie said next time I did napkins to talk to you guys. Hes so cool, isnt he? Oh man, I love that guy. He is so nice. Well Frank was just telling me that he drove, uh, Swami to Princeton, New Jersey. They together, no, thats interesting they spent a day together. Thats interesting I think that Id like to hear Id like to hear a little something about that. Yeah. I think this is the place. The World Cafe, thats it. So let me get a card. Monday looks pretty clear. I was gonna make a reservation for tomorrow night. I mean, 6, 6:00 youre pretty much. Name is Goldsmith but Im sure theres room. Thanks. See you then. Uh, for 4. Lets march. Um, do you want to eat? Why dont we do it another day? I wanna get across the park and eat. Youre not the Xenakis thing is gonna be real hard to handle on an empty stomach. Im telling you. Why dont

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we do it another day? We have only have an hour less than an hour and a half to get over there and eat and Xenakis is gonna be hard to handle on an empty stomach. Can we see it another day? Its not going anywhere. I dont want to rush and its... uh, lets Im sure theres coffee shops lets get within an earshot of it. Really, I really just know Cheryl its gonna be a its gonna be a rough concert. We have an hour and a half. We have to get all the way across the park and all the way across town plus we have to eat. Im why dont we see a place we know? What do we know? Theres a zillion coffee shops. No up theres a well find one along the way. Lets get in lets get over there. I also think all the places here are, you know, obviously theres lines and lines and lines. 92nd St. and Lexington Ave. So lets just get over in that neighborhood. You know, if we get caught here, were gonna end up getting caught here. I think were gonna need a little bit of walking exercise and some food cause this is gonna be real long. Sit fest. OK? I dont know if its gonna be that long but even if its two hours its gonna be long. Its real difficult stuff. Its beautiful and really crazy. This is hes known for these screeching things. Oh, hes really one of the major composers and hes got these things that vibrate and scream. Theyre really really great. Um, his stuff is either long out of print or extremely expensive. I havent been able to find anything in the discount places, you know, that I usually go that has anything of his. No, its not. This is the Ethical Culture. You youre ridic 10 times ridic. Well, um, well were gonna hear all about it next week after Vedanta well get a ride downtown with them and go to the Indian place. OK? Next week. OK, so well have lunch with them and go out to Dan and Lawres. OK? Itchy. Itchy. Cheryl. Itchy. Whats that itchy? So Richard likes you because you collect handbags and napkins he said... He was so funny. He was telling us

some story about a Holocaust survivor and and a woman whose husband was in a camp. He said but one one of those little camps. He said not one of those big ones where they burned them all up. That guy is great. That guy is totally great. Yeah. Not one of the big ones where they burned them up. Hes great. That guy is I like him I like him more and more. Dont you? He is just sort of increasingly absurd increasingly interesting. Everyone wants wants a taste of this weather, huh? Look at this. Right, you got it. Yeah, yeah I think its croquet. I think its for croquet. Theyre getting old looking. I think you need a new pair. That woman that we were walking with. Shes so batty, isnt she? Yeah. Isnt she batty? I gotta ask you something... I mean I guess its inevitable. I get a little like uh, you know. Do you? I start to feel a little, ugh. You know? Its a little cloying, isnt it? Its too close I feel like. I dont know. It yeah. No, Ive never forgiven him for that. Youre right. Yeah, this is the same people we saw in Coney Island last year. Remember? Remember they had the dog? We gotta come babe we really gotta... Remember we saw these guys on the boardwalk last year and they had the same dog? Remember? Do you remember? Fascists! These kind of jockey guys. Look at the look at the trees, sweets. Arent they arent they lovely? Yeah, so soft. Hey did we ever decide where we wanted to go on our anniversary this year? Why dont we think about it. Any suggestions? Do you want to go to Blue Ribbon? There are plenty of oysters there. You wanna do that? Thats a nice restaurant. The foods really good there. Thats like I think thats like Ellens apartment that one or the one next door. Yeah, I think its that one right there. Remember because it was near that sort of embassy building? Do you want to go to that coffee shop next to the Whitney? That we go to sometimes? Its just a coffee shop. Yeah, I think we should eat its we got

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about an hour. Yeah or we can find something else but. Well, 79th but wheres the Whitney? 77th, right? No, actually lets keep heading north because we, uh, still have to walk 12, 13 more blocks this way. Heres a coffee shop. Perfect. What do you say? Yeah but its actually a table and sure, yeah. This is just good I mean well, well get used to the temperature. Um, Im gonna have some, uh a bagel and lox I think. What are you gonna have? An omelet or something? A sandwich? Sure. Cheryl? Uh, Ill have, uh, the nova and bagel. Yeah yeah, uh, toasted dry please and and a, uh, coffee. I think its good that we just found a place just to go in and sit tight. And you know, the next place we could have gone there would have been a line out the door its, like, what the fuck? Well you know these things can take a year or two. I wouldnt worry about it the show was sorry, what? It took a year for that big piece of mine to sell. You know, it finally did and then the other one never did, the huge one from John and Karins the last one never did. You know, Id say all in all the show was quite a success. Does he have any reviews coming out in the magazines? Uh huh. They come out of Chicago, uh, they did a review of 73 Poems at The Drawing Center. Its a good magazine, yeah. Serious. Yeah. Serious, uh, serious Mid-Western magazine. Yeah, that might be nice. You can parlay that ino getting a gig at Chicago, yeah. What did Amy call her? Now, Vanelyn. No, thats good, Cher, no I mean it was an unqualified success that was, uh, that was terrific, uh, you got such good write ups. It was just wonderful. Everyone saw it. And the nice the nicest thing I think about it is that Stefanos a good guy and. Yeah, hes funny. Hes a good guy, hes a nice guy, hes responsible, he cares, hes hustling. This is a great this is the perfect place for you to be. Whats happening there? What what would I hit you for? Moving the moving the...? Well, you moved it about a half an

inch. Now, does that sound like a, does that sound like it qualifies for a, uh, a right hook? No, I think you I think you got it wrong. Well, then these people need to learn need to learn something about, uh, how to get along with people Id say. Thats not civilized, if you ask me. Theyre savage, right. I was like, oh. Well well hes got a real hes got a real uptight side, you know, to him like. Perfect. Yeah, no I I, uh, hes hes curious, you know, hes just like any other like anyone else, hes just like everyone. Well, ask him. Ill catch his eye cause Im gonna be eating mine here. Sir. Forgot the tomatoes on her... Im just using the regular mic now for today. I dont know. What is that chicken salad? Tuna flesh. What? Oh. So youre not gonna be able to join us for dinner. Youre gonna fly down. Um, I dont know. No no big plans. No plans. No. After can I have a bit of this? Sure, um, I dont have any big plans. I dont know. Im just gonna do this. Im gonna have dinner. I would like would like you to take the dogs just let them out to pee in the backyard when you get home. Youll be home earlier than I will actually on your way home itd be nice if you would stop and let them down for two minutes just to relieve themselves and then when I come home Ill take them for a long walk. Before you go over to Stefanos? Just around the neighborhood a little bit. Yeah. It is and I dont expect you or want you to walk all 3 cause it it really is too hard. Yeah, well, Ill do that but if you could do little things like just let them downstairs like say tonight. No, no. I cant. They bolted it, yeah. Bolted it open. Yeah because the dogs from the cab stand shit all over the place. I dont blame them, really. And they figure its all dogs, you know, those people never cleaned up their shit. Theyre just so ignorant and the place is covered with shit so they figure we bolt the doors open nobodys gonna bring their dogs in there and no, I mean, I dont I dont blame them. No well

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go for our anniversary. We go out every year thats an important date to me. Its more important than birthdays or anything. No, thats a good one. I love that. I love it, yeah. Yeah, lets go somewhere else. Lets go to Blue Ribbon. I mean Blue Ribbons really good. I mean you eat a stack of oysters, you know, its expensive but its good. With Ann though, yeah. We gotta go out to her place. I believe its something around the sixth of May. So, well just take the 7 train to Flushing Main St. thatd be nice actually we go and eat eat some really great, uh, food out there. Main St. Flushing is a great place so lets go like make a day of that. Yeah. Somebody was, yeah. Yeah. How long? Horrible. That was the most foul tasting stuff, yeah. Itd be great if it was tasted good but its so bad. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Im excited about the food. Im really oh the foods gonna be great. Great octopus and chicken and, you know, just just like what you get in Queens. Ill bet its close. Oh yeah I think thats Im I believe that its fairly authentic stuff out there. Venezuela. Ill bet you get better food in the coffee shops than you do in the fancy restaurants that the art people take you to. The fancy restaurants the art people take you to is probably gonna be like, you know, upscale continental cuisine. It wont be nearly as interesting as, uh, a plate of calamari and a glass of retsina at the corner coffee shop. An asshole of a kid, huh? The father wouldnt talk to him. You see the father ignored him all the time. Just dying for attention, you know? And the mother is just such an impatient dip. Oh, its really annoying. Spoiled, yeah, he just wants attention, that poor kid. I dont know smell. It never is. Yeah. Yeah you just say silly things and fun things stimulate them. She was like well its got new technology. What does that mean? That gay. This is pretty good, really. Mundane lox. Not great lox but it. Oh theyre just the reg, oh, you know, theyre like the, you know,

pre-packaged. Its not great lox. It was fine. Sure. It it it did what I wanted it to do. Can we get another cup of coffee and a check please? Thanks. It was very funny when Kathy said to you do you have that book The Unredeemed Captive? I was giving you shit about that the other day. I said Cher youre never gonna read this book. Oh yes I will. And Cheryl, its been sitting there for a year and you havent touched it. You read 5 books in between youre never gonna read that. Oh, Im gonna read it. My sister gave it to me. Oh, please. It was very funny when Kathy had these two academic friends of hers come to your show, uh, opening and they were the two, like, people, like, who doesnt fit in here? Like these really bland, you know, academics. Sort of Plain Jane. It was so funny because everybody else at your opening was so fashionable. They looked so good. And heres Mr. and Mrs. kind of like hi. Its academia. Oh, thank you. Oh, yeah. Well, I was really like I was like said said I was pleasant. That other guy that other guy showed up at lunch. Fact is she was so hyper I never got to do any real serious talking with her. Yeah. Yeah. And then she gives this paper. No, we gonna have to wait till we get up to the Y. It was its then she gives this paper that was, you know, staggeringly deep. I got parts of it on tape, no, it I mean it was just so good thanks. Um, you know, really I mean remarkable I mean it was a mind blowing paper and and yet, you know, shes like all she wants to do is gossip about. So therell be some FMUers at this today. Yep. Probably a good amount of FMUers. At some level, sure. Dont you? Yeah. I think on some level, uh, definitely. I like Janet a lot. She doesnt pull any of the academic shit on me, you know? That Bruce bummed out on and Andrea bums out on. She doesnt pull any of this, uh, 20 dollar words Bruce and Andrea seem to. Sir? Thanks. Uh, how so? Yeah. Kathy is like. Kathy will will flaunt strong opinions all the

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time. Ive never heard her, kind of, cut David off or silence any of Davids ideas. Shes never said to David, no, shell never do that. No but their relationship is Kathy isnt amazingly, thank you very much. Kathy is like like seriously respectful of Davids all of Davids thought and ideas. Ive never heard her even challenge him. She just listens, you know, like as if when he speaks she can learn a lot. No, its really nice I mean theyre very theyre very lovely together. You know, well, you and Stefano are like yammering on about Sean and that he was saying that he kind of liked the work but and and and and that you asked did you see this article and he said yes and he said something. I caught a little bit of it, yeah. I hope you never have a figure like that. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Right. I was gonna say the same thing. You think anybody in the art world reads? Yeah. Yeah, who cares I mean did you did you have any hopes that was that was what going to be the case with that article? I mean if if that was the case, I would I would be king and he would be shit but, uh, as it turns out I think our positions remain as they were and. Yeah, but then you could always, uh, soothe soothe yourself by by the real fact that nobody reads and, uh, thats the real truth. The truth is that its easy, people understand it, people like and thats all. People will continue to kind of have its own legs. Um, only the two paragraphs in the Times can people absorb and they only read the kind of first paragraph and the last paragraph. There are 3 paragraphs the middle one is usually skipped over the first line and the last line. They dont read. I dont know where where people read. I know in the art world they dont read. Well, its fully the reality. That why I kind of think that 5 friends of mine that read the article Im appreciative for and the, uh, nine ninety nine nine nine nine nine nine other people will just say, oh. They told me that they read it, yeah. That was

perfectly adequate, wasnt it? Yeah, thats just thats yeah, lets go get a, uh, lets go get a, uh, package of candy. So anyway, uh, you know. So I I dont know. Thats just the, uh, the reality of things. I, you know, well. Oh, what did they say? My mother had a typically simpy, uh, saccharine comment about it that that alludes me at the moment. I cant ever remember it it was so unmemorable. And my father said he didnt understand the article, so. He said he under he said oh I got a little bit of it. I understood a little bit of it but he, you know, for them for them its like they dont understand it. For them its like, you know, OK its like somebody is paying a little bit of attention to what our sons doing and thats thats thats the gist of it, uh, you know, like they didnt understand your talk at the Modern at all. Not not like one bit of it. Now thats not, you know, theyre just but its not their fault. So they can get kind of, you know, um, Joseph Campbell sort of lectures on, you know, simpy sort of simpy lectures on, you know, subjects that makes them feel good about themselves. Yeah, no but its... yeah, well, theyre theyre theyre not theyre no theyll go to theyre not gonna take college courses but listen anyway I dont want to get stuck here. Um, the, at any rate, you know, they dont understand I mean its. Its a di, listen, the dialog of contemporary art has alluded most people and its not. Yeah, well its true, I mean, it really is and even Marjorie I was talking to Liz Kotz about Marjorie Perloff. Heres a woman whos really on the cutting edge of literature but shes shes not up on contemporary art criticism. You know, shes not follow the dialogue and its such a minutiae and introverted and and sort of small dialogue thats important to a lot of people nonetheless but, you know, you really have to be up on it and just to sort of have sort of gotten through Pop Art I think its like, you know, Pop Art threw people, Ab Ex threw people and

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certainly once you get into Conceptualism, thats it. You know? And then thats thats already 30 years old so your you know when to somebody for somebody like my parents to simply jump into the stream, you know, right now its none of it makes any sense to them. And, uh, so, you know, I cant expect any big big, uh, comments from them about it. Yeah, if youre a thoughtful person, you know, you can. Lets get these. Im liking these now. You want these? Uh, no. Were you gonna give me a bag for this. You were you were reaching for you were reaching for, you know, you get a bag with everything these days and I figure this will be the first time I was gonna get a bag for my Tic Tacs. You were reaching for the matches, thanks. No, it was such a fascinating dream. Im so glad you shared that with me. Hello, Cheryl come on. What did you see with my mother. Oh god, thats extreme. Yeah, a little bit a little bit of drool. Hes a thinking man. Yeah hes hes old old fashioned in that way. There was a time when you didnt have to be educated but if you had a sense, if you had your head on your shoulders you were taught in school well that you could basically extract the idea from something even if it was unusual to you which is something I think that we really live by. You know, were not experts in everything and certainly look at you, you come to music you havent read books on music but you can look at it and figure it out and talk about it, you know, I think its, you know, people, I think, used to have that idea before we were spoon fed everything and told we have to be experts in everything as well, you know, you could you would just be like yeah, you could figure some things out for yourself and and, you know, sort of some kind of self empowerment in that way. I think your dads very much like that. Youre mothers not. Youre mother wants to be told, you know, she feel inadequate cause shes not an expert, you know, its all sorts

of neurotic psychosis mixed up in there. But your father, no. Hes a man who was trained to think and believe in what he felt. Hes a sensitive guy, your dad. Its unusual today. Well I I I really think that T.V. is responsible for that. T.V. has become the surrogate parent. Parents dont have to educate the children. T.V. educates them and the T.V. tells you how to think and what to think so that there is, you know, no more thinking for yourself and, you know, weve talked about it so much after you see a Presidential speech on T.V., uh, the minute after its over they tell you what was said and what to think, the analysis. To be creative. Definitely I definitely. I think, you know, on the other hand like if youre crafty the kids crafty and curious and has that suss, like this guy could go home on the Net and go to Altavista and type in Intrepid, you know, plus battleship and probably come up with a load of information, go oh wow, you know, a picture of it maybe, you know, eventually this type of thing if hes given the curiosity the that information can be great. Its not informations not evil its just that were not taught to think for ourselves anymore. Thats the problem. And we can also say, oh, intrepid. You know what the word intrepid means? You know, you start talking about, oh yeah, it means fear. Why would they name a battleship fear? Look at the little, uh, you know, obviously Cheryl on some level you or I got that. I dont know, we dont know where but, uh, you know, yeah, cause, its uh. Yeah, or what are battleships for or or do you think that theyre even necessary and now weve got like satellites and we can, you know, we got planes. Why would they need battleships? I mean theres so much to talk about but she just shut the fucking kid right down. Look at this suit, ouch. Do is act out. And saying how hot it is in here. Yeah yeah just just get his mind off the goddamned heat in the restaurant. And then he starts talking about, you know,

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like Max. You take his take his mind off the duck and you put it on the elephant, you know, just hey parent get a little control you shift his damn mind over and hell stop hell hell, you know, get into this whole fantasy about battleships. He can take his goddamned pickle and pretend its the Intrepid. You put a toothpick in it and say its a sail, you know, I mean, lets go already. Meanwhile Dad is just shut down. Jun Junoir is like wrecking the place and bitching and moaning and the mother is just just got her full of it. Its insane. Right. Yeah. Yeah yeah that was really, that was really idiotic. Totally not theyll grow grow up to hate us as well. So my parents, you know, my parents are just, you know, theyre just lazy. They are neu neurotic and neurotic. So when they look at something like that article, its just conventional, you know? Oh, someones paying attention to our son. So, I dont understand this but its nice that someones paying attention to our son. And that gets back to the thing with Sean and Stefano, 99% of the people are gonna say, oh yeah, someones paying attention to Sean. I wish I had that attention or someone is look at Kenny, hes got a write up, oh yeah. I want one. This shit doesnt make any difference. The only difference it makes is a is a 3 paragraph review in the New York Times that people dont read either. Its a drag. People dont read. People do not read. Where, you know, with T.V. now and computer, who reads books, really? You know besides John Le Carr? Who really reads? I I, you know, I know Barnes and Noble is booming but I have a feeling that the, uh, you know, the good works are not exactly jumping off the shelves there, well I know it. Image world babe, isnt it? You you you make your bed I dont know why an artist would want to work at a gallery, I mean, thats thats his karma. Seriously. Where which is one one two blocks up this way. Itll probably start a few minutes late. Yeah, if it

were up to you wed be hanging in the Banana Republic and wed be stuck in a traffic jam across the park right now, Cheryl. I know, you get carried away and... Well, you got 300 dollars. I dont understand why youre drooling over everything when youve got a 300 dollar account at your favorite place in the universe. Yeah, well look at Aunt Judy. So, OK? Lets spend 6000. We have 6000 in the bank. Lets spend it all on... Bobbies saying he wore those shoes to India. I never I never couldnt believe she cared so much about my shoes. I I never thought anybody could even give a shit what shoes I was wearing theyre. Its very funny. Oh, everybodys hanging out outside. Nobody wants go and sit in for 6 hours of difficult music. But were gonna do it. Oh, I dont, aw, listen. The Berio was so long. That must have been a 4 hour show in the freezing cold. OK, so lets use the facilities. Bruchay. Bruce. Sorry. Hey babe. Cheryl, why heres your ticket. Why I guess I got to use the mens room. Hey Bruce, hi. How you doing? Fine, how you doing? Where where is the, uh, bathrooms here for the, uh, for us. Alright. Lets find them. Yeah, it is. There to the left. Yeah, so we just got to wait to go in. Here we go. Here why dont you... hey Bruce. Cher. Why dont you guys both go Ill grab the seats and and, uh... its alright? Bruce, this way. Sallys not coming? I didnt know that. I didnt know that. I dont know, Bruce. Oh boy. Really? We shall see? I wonder if this is going to be a long show? Something tells me it will be. Um, we gotta get programs, yeah, I want to get a program. At the Berio thing here, the Sequenzas ran about 4 hours. Including including the lecture, yeah. Oh, it was, oh, eternal. Uh, it was at night. Oh, it went till like midnight. It was it was it was insanely long. So you wanna go get chicken afterwards? Good, yeah, OK. Cheryls gonna go down and take her show down so its just you and me, babe. And then tomorrow night were meeting

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also. The girls, you know? Were... you know Ive you know Ive always thought of you like that, Bruce. Down through the years Ive always, Ive always thought of you like that. Im glad you could make it, man. Big dance weekend, huh? Lets grab some programas. Here we are. Thats quick. The shows only an hour and a half long? Really? Thats disappointing. Can you do something about that? Bruce, she says come here. Where is where where is this if we clap really hard hell come out for an encore? We, OK. Come sit with us. Come sit with us. Excuse me. Come down here. Come sit with us, its not. Theyre just for the lecture. You can sit anywhere you want for the lecture. Come on. Ive never Ive never seen you obey rules so much. Obedient. An hour and a half. Isnt that amazing? Went to dinner with Cheryls dealer. Went to a party, yeah. Uh, party for another artist. Was it fun? Uh, it was OK, yeah. Dinner was fun with those guys. Theyre really nice. Janet was there, your friend Janet. Me, Janet, Cheryl, and Stefano went. Yeah. Im disappointed this is so short. I thought this was gonna be another real long show. FMUers here. Scanning scanning the audience for them. It ended yesterday. Shes got to go down there and take it all down. We just ate. Ill eat again. She, yeah. Ive been telling her that its gonna be like a 6 hour concert. Yeah. Cheryl. Guess how long the show is? An hour and a half. The Berio. You wanna come... I dont think its gonna be... the Berio thing. I told him to but he refused. Yeah. The Beckett talk was good. Oh, I wasnt invited. Shit. You read read at the church? Well talk later. No, hey, very serious food. Look its only an hour and a half. Oh man. So, you got 15 bucks for for some CDs there. Robin and some of the FMUers. Flypaper for fuck ups. Bruce, you like him? Lukas? No? That was very funny. Where are you going asshole? No your not. Says who? Nobodys sitting here. Come here.

Bruce, come on. There are millions of empty seats here, lets go. No, will you please come over here? Who am I gonna talk to during the show? Cmon. Seriously. Did you, what did you think? No, with myself. No, Ive done that with myself. Come on. Seriously, you gonna go back to your seat? What did you think of that? I liked him better than I liked Berio. Way more academic, yeah yeah. It was a bummer. Ill see you at the intermission, right? Sure. Hey Bruce, no ones sitting here, man, youre welcome to it. Heres one FMUer. Thats Bryce. And theres Stork. Yeah, he actually left the house. Theres Bryce and Stork. He actually left the house. Thats very funny. Cheryl. Dork. What did Amie call him? Theres Tom Schmitz. Formerly of RISD, now of FMU. Theres a lot of FMUers here. Flypaper. Little Nick Marantz little Nick sitting next to to Robin. See Robin and Nick? You met him you met him that time, yeah. God its amazing, I mean its very funny how much FMU staff is here. Its amazing. No this is good. No he always had a very hip following. Hip and young. The guy that was interviewing Xenakis hes the guy, lets see. His wife is a student of Suzanne, this kind of weird wishy painter, hes a friend of Joan La Barbaras and he writes for the Wall St. Journal. Um, he also writes for Lingo and does good, you know, he does good New Music criticism for Lingo. Mark Swed and he wrote all that stuff in that you remember that Cage thing that we got? That thing that Schwann Record Guide? All that writing, you know, with that bad typography? That was all his writing as well. Huh? This is fun? Thats a lot of people we know? Its interesting all the people that show up on FMU theyre all the people that have good shows. The knuckleheads stayed away. Cheryl the rumble the beat if you listen quietly you can hear that same noise that they had to turn off. Cheryl. Shut up. So I have more piece of tape from this week saying... yes, thank god.

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Do we like it? Thats the thing with Xenakis over here... the hits keep on coming. Its pretty rich stuff, isnt it? Its pretty accessible stuff. Its pretty rich and yeah, it rocks, yeah and also the ensembles very good very sort of Bang On A Can like. Oh, by the way, the performance we saw got a review in the paper. The, uh, the Times loved it. What? Its good stuff. And thats 89, its a late piece. The piece is from... The times between Ustvolskaya and Xenakis have proven to be the most interesting. Yeah. Theyre really big, arent they? Like, kind of anti-academic. Really noisy. It was very good, wasnt it? So, yeah, Im interested in the, uh, in the uh, vocal work. I think it should be real good. Look at these. These are its a quarter-tone piece too which should be interesting. Remember the Ives quarter-tone pianos? The conductor has the ugliest suit on. Its like theyre all coming to see Bruce. Huge, huh? Hi guys. Hi Rob. Hi Nick. This is my friend Bruce. Nick Robin. They are and theres Cheryl. Im exhausted. I worked hard during that last piece. You remember Cheryl, right Nick? Bruce, what did you think? Very good. Were you here for the lecture? He didnt have much to say, really. Schoenberg said that as well, huh? That was weird, yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah, thats right. Well, he liked early he liked early Stravinsky. He didnt like the Romantic, uh, the Neo-Classical stuff. The second piece was real nice. Really punchy. Were trying to understand the hipness factor how both the crowd and the performers. Xenakis always seems to have sort of real hip things going on around him. Oh, way. Yeah. Were trying to decipher the hipness factor here. The performers as well as the, uh... Drink of water. Uh, seems like she took off, oh yeah. Heres mine. She off at the bathroom. Kind of weird, isnt it? I guess they got another show going. Uh, sure sure sure we could. OK, Ill get it at the station. Oh, Bruce theres a party theres a party for zing-

magazine its out. Your big piece is in it and I butchered it to hell. Uh, no theres a party for it well get our hands on it Thursday night at the old Knitting Factory on Houston St. if youre around come on down and grab a copy or two, yeah. I wanted to take a piss before they sit us down there. Uh, I will remind you again. Yeah yeah. Some old standard, yeah. Some classical music. I hope youll give me some of the, uh, your, uh, a tape of your for Sallys for the radio. The conductor does remind me of Charles a little bit, doesnt he? Yeah, I wish, I wish. Charles knows nothing about this kind of music. You did? He he knows nothing about music. Were done. Was Raworth there? Well, hes a great reader. Youre still a great reader. So much for 6 hours. Go ahead. Go around. Well, somethings wrong with the older with the older woman I think shes shes, you know, old and cant quite control her speech. Did we get that disc at the station? Did we get it? Yeah, Im sure we will. Did you get my email about the Carl Stone thing? Oh, really. I did, but it didnt come up. Anyway, anyway, Ill do if you want me to do Ill do that. Sure, on the 30th? You want me to come out? Whenever you want. Whenever you want me to do it Ill do it. Id love to. Yeah, hes interesting. I can do it or we can tape it for someone elses show unless he unless he wants to be live on somebody elses show. Well, something screwed up its OK. Ill Ill talk to you after this. Robin you enjoying this? I know you are I dont have to ask you. I know Nick, well I you were not sure whether you were coming. Nick knew he was coming when he first heard about it. Im giving you shit. After this, Cheryl, do you just want to go downtown? Or do you want to come get a bite? Yeah, alright I told Bruce Id hang out a little bit afterwards with him if you wanna head downtown, you may. That was pretty beautiful. Yeah. What hes doing is basically what the guy said earlier is hes doing

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something thats not twelve tone. Its just kind of... you know? Its not, um, tied to academic twelve tone stuff thats by that by the 60s was really dead. It was great when it first started but way down the line, 50 years later, its not interesting. Thats what we like so much about these composers from the 60s on is that its just kind of neat sounds, you know, somebodys got an idea of how to make really neat. Which? Those are bassoons. Bassoon. And a straight pipe is an oboe, Im sorry, no. Thats... I could have listened to a lot more of that. Oh shit. I love they did this before and I thought there was, like, another inch of music left so I didnt see that there was actually another page. Shit. I was like, that was so rich. That was so rich. I would hold this but I think it was not matching my outfit. Pretty good stuff, wasnt it? Like I think that last piece was really... pretty rich stuff. I was taping a little bit of it, uh, just letting it run a little bit its just... oh. Oh, its OK. Its OK. Yeah, Ill put my tissue over it there. I play so lo-fi stuff on the show. Some real lo-fi what do you think, Nick, what kind of what kind of, uh, sound quality will I get? Yeah. Oh, that was pretty punchy. I liked that last piece a lot. Very rich. Well, were gonna play this all on the radio. Thats all right Ill just put it Ill just play it. Stick it right into the mic, yeah. Hey, were lo-fi. Hey, I see Stork made it out of the house. Look at that. Jesus Christ. Stork has just left the building. My god. Did Donna make it to the show? I saw Tom, right right. There he is. Hes hes Ive never seen him been in that house when he hasnt been its unbelievable like every. Is that you mean hes not there like every night? Oh really? Really? Really? I thought he was really bizarre, like, OK I guess he never leaves. I was like was is Stork doing at like 5 in the morning? Pacing around. Alright alright alright. Well, that was that was good. Is he is Xenakis over there? Is that what everyones waiting for? Oh.

Robin why why Nick Nick why why is he so hip? Why does Xenakis why does he have this whole hip thing going. Yeah, look. Most composers I asked Bruce he didnt know. Most composers... he knows, he knows whats going, no seriously, so many we go to so many new music shows. Were always like half the age of anybody there. Is that right? What is it? Now Nick it. Yeah, it rocks it rocks and it rolls. Right Nick? What do you think seriously. Its accessible, isnt it? Its less accessible, say, than Bang On A Can which is a lot more accessible and rocks also. It has a lot more rock connections. Im going to the opera Monday so Im missing that. Bruce and I are going to see Romeo and Juliet. It should be good. No, it should be good. I went to the last Bang On A Can show and it was wonderful, wonderful. Yeah, I love yeah. Nick, do you like those guys, the Bang On A Can stuff or not really? The last show was just consistently, every piece was wonderful. Maya Beiser. Wonderful. We dont have her CD at the station. No, shes on Koch also, I mean Im Im surprised she does a Ustvolskaya and a Gubaidulina piece. By the way, Ive been taking all the classical CDs and have been beefing up our classical CD section. Ive been moving things when I find them. Gubaidulina is now filed under classical, thank you. If you if you do the same if you see anything thats clearly like Xenakis is never filed in our X section. I know but but do Xenakis and Berio end up in our classical section and and Partch and Cage and Gub.... well you wanna just then let why dont we meld why dont we meld it all together. Yeah, those are compilations and that stays in the comp room. Im Im all for either putting them in or getting them all out. What do you think Nick? Get em all out, huh? Or put them back in? Station politics. OK, yeah. Hey, see you soon. Nice to see you, alright? Robin, so well... I know I feel bad that I stood that he got it... oh, Id like to do it... oh.

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Oh, no I would. Id like to but I think Carl Stone shouldnt be on in the middle of the night, major major musical figure should be on somebodys show. I mean, nobodys gonna hear him in the middle of the night. Well, Ill tape it if somebody wants to play it during their show. I mean the man should be prime time. Yeah, I mean Id put him on in the middle of the night. Its a waste, I mean, nobodys listening but, you know, what the fuck. Id like to. Bye. Hi hi hi. Hi Fabio. Hi Tom. You did a nice fill in the other night what was that crazy thing you were playing that was, uh, this this thing about shadows? That was very good. Where do we have it in the library? How you doing? Alright. How was the show? Yeah. Pretty rich. Pretty rich stuff, yeah. Yeah, it was beautiful and the second one I liked a lot as well, theyre some really really punchy pieces, arent they. Well, they got a good crowd here Robins here. Robin and Nick Marantz, yep. Are you heading out tonight? What are you playing, any any of this? Well be listening. See you guys later. Are we talking about are we talking about the art worlds inability to read? They dont read and they dont listen to music. They they they we went. Theres no theres no, right, theres no acknowledgment multiculturalism. So, do you wanna get some food Cheryl or... ? Lets go down. You know that that FMU group is the most socially awkward. Well, I mean thats about all you can talk about with them its like, Nick, why is this music so hip? At least I ask questions. It clams them up. Thats a nice little house, huh? It intimidates them. I dont intimidate anyone. Are you trying... no ball playing please. I are you trying to teach me how to be a good teacher? That? Thank god. Hey, I can sit behind my computer and be real anti-social. Yeah. Ah, that was terrific. Well, I I find... well I thought that in the, uh, the second half there should have been a drum going brrrrrr and an organ. There could have

been an organ and a drum. Banjolaly. A slanjo, right. Chinese banjo, a slanjo. Bruce, you just rub some people the wrong way, man. What can I say? You just rub some people the wrong way? Stupid comments for the archive. Look at that thing. Yeah, you rub Iannis the wrong way. And Vangelis? What did you think of Mark Swed? The interviewer? The Berio the Berio, did you want some of these? The Berio questions were bad. The Berio questions were bad. Its all, oh here, speaking of which, speaking of which Ive got were meeting at the World Cafe tomorrow night at 6. Columbus and 69th. You wanna just meet us, oh, you wanna just meet us at the opera? OK. Janet loves your friend Janet the, uh, academic from M.I.T. said it was terrific. She she loved the, uh. She said she loved the first act and then the second one fell short or something? She enjoys it. I havent even heard of him. Yeah, it was somebody I had never heard of. He wrote me an email there. I dont remember the name. Could have been. I cant I never heard of it. Uncle David yesterday. Yeah, it was a it was her 85th birthday. Yes no you should have seen the, no both, but you should have seen the you should have seen the drinks they were drinking. I poured them these old people can really suck down cups that size of, uh, vodka and gin. Who do he what, you went to a lousy dance concert yesterday, huh? Who is she? Tell Sally Ill have her poster done for her I need a few more days. Looks pretty good. I need a few more days to keep working on it, perfect it. So Bruce, who was that guy you were pissing next to? Ah. Oh, that was the romantic, uh. Poet. Now where is this place? Somewhere along here. No. Well there aint nothing up here. Its a block or two up here. Its on this, yeah, its on this side of the street on First. Probably on the next block. Its where that yellow awning might be. Terry Danziger used to live right right, I think she lives in this

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building, Cher. For a long time. Yeah, we dropped her off once there. Yeah, were really way over, huh? She says... The Second Avenue. Is that right? I dont rem... it was, what was that Bruce? Ah, here is is. El Pollo. Here it is. I know, Ill go get some. Some beers. Janet. No? Apple House? Applehaus. No. Theres no beer? No beer here. At least Bob knows how to say hes sorry, huh? You know I was that was a compliment, Bruce. Well, oh, Mr. Sensitive. Im trying to learn from you. Im trying to be... Beer? Beer? Fucking whats its like... what city are we in? Its dry, man. Ja ja Munich. You missed a great, uh, art party last night. How is that... Michael Joo, Michael Joos party. Mikey the Jew. We got we got we got one on Wednesday night. Yeah. Party party party. Hey fuck you. Wednesday is, uh, Peter Halleys party. Index Magazine. Hes the one that Charles wrote a great slam on his work. Yeah, right cuz she was jealous of his success. Bruce, what kind of beer do you want and Cheryl how many beers do you want? Shell probably have one well get... What do like there, babe? Im gonna get something on the lite side here Im gonna get some, some Coronas. Were eating some South of the Border food unless... So, what are you gonna have? I have 2, you have 2, shes gonna have 2, you have 2? Ill have 1 Lets get 4 total. She doesnt want one? Cheryl, do you want a beer? Ill have a beer and a half thatll about do it for Kenny G. No. Same bag. Probably 50 pal. Its only a quarter I need. Yeah, of course. Did you read the article about James Levine in the Sunday Times? Today? Curious what what they had to say. No. I wanna know all about that. I will I will one day. Oh, I would if I got him on at the station I would I would just push and push and push. It would just turn into just a a blathering gossip session. Its what Im best at. Fuck music. Lets talk about... Just money. They fools. How you doing? Just two. Cheryl do you want any? Do you

have a couple of slices of lemon for us please? Thanks. Alright. I am not touching that. Uh, hearts served with hot sauce. Im funky but Im not that funky thank you. Yeah, right. That I can do without. I remember the food here the chicken here was just terrific, you know that? Have you been back since the since we were here last? That was for Charles and Susan Howe I took you here for the first time. That was, like, maybe 4 years ago. Charles and Susan Howe and and Clark read. That was a while. Yeah, mote is amazing. Cheryl, Im not that hungry but Im just gonna Im just gonna eat cause, uh, this whole, yeah. Its a 7 flavor barbecue anyway. Yeah, Im surprised that a lot of people from that show arent down here. We saw the downtown hipsters in the crowd we saw Elliott Sharp. Yeah. How is she? Is she talented Zina? Ive seen her with Fred Frith over the years and that group. Theyre interesting. Oh, the David Shea record is terrific, the new one. Wonderful. No no nope we are ready. Thank you for the lemons. Im Im... why dont we get some, um, I think we could use a little more than one order of mote, I mean, Im not gonna have that that many fries. Ill just a few fries Im more interested in the mote so why dont you order the fries well just take take a little bit. Hot, dark, quarter and, uh, so well get one fry one mote and you wanna get one more thing for fun? Yeah, how big is the mote? Why dont we get two motes for the fun of it? Yeah yeah yeah. OK, OK. This kind of day. It could be a little colder but were lucky to find any beer in this neighborhood at all. Yeah, so you have you long been a follower of Xenakiss music? Have you? Im asking you a question. Im starting a conversation. What? Bruce, do you like how long have you been listening to Xenakiss music were you ever like a total major fan of his? Yeah. You probably have, like, have a lot of his records. Yeah, that scar was mean, wasnt it? I love I love

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Ligeti. Das Irae, thats Penderecki. How about how about the first one was for Witold Lutoslawski? Lutoslawski? You like his stuff? Henze or... I like, uh, these guy were really good, I mean, Kagel and Ligeti and these are the real guys that are using sound so beautifully. Interesting, yeah. It was interesting how he was saying he worked against the twelve tone stuff by like, 1960 or 1950 it was already 40 years old twelve tone work enough is enough. Yeah. There was... It wasnt happening before the war even though this stuff was written in 1917. Interesting group of people that were living in like European refugees settled in Los Angeles. He wrote that while he was living in L.A. Theres also Britten was living there, Huxley. Yeah, thats right. He was living out there too. It seems sort of undocumented to me. In L.A.? The intellectual. I mean they had kind of dark, I mean, they tended toward darkness anyway that whole group. Yeah yeah no thats. Thomas Mann is sitting there writing in, you know, in L.A. its so bizarre. Hes just so European and so dark. So, you know, minutiae and convoluted in a big sunny landscape it doesnt make any sense to me. Schoenberg too. Thats thats why. Thats whats so weird cause in New York you can kind of see a lot of these dark European characters fitting into this landscape but there, its so completely... A.G. will never read that article. Geoff Geoff showed it to him A.G. calls him up says hey saw your article. Like, A.G. did you read it? Like no no no just got it. Hell never read it. He doesnt read. No, he doesnt read. No. They dont read. They dont read. She read for school but of course once youre out of school theres no need to read. No, why should they? The meals the meals keep coming all the same. What? Theyre broken up. Quantity matters. If you get if you get a big picture it means more than if you get... I hear that all the time, oh you got the big picture. Most of it a lot of it is out

of out of jealousy cause you dont really wanna read, you know, you cant youre so jealous that somebody else got the attention that you dont want to read what was said about that. Morriseys song We Hate It When We We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful Morriseys, uh... Fuck you. Thats, uh, 74? 74, uh, I just sent them an email saying that the zingmagazine was out and that that maybe hell show up yeah this nasty I didnt do any justice everybodys gonna hate me when I up this magazine. I take it and xerox it so its degraded and you can hardly read it. No no. Yeah. At Botanica which is the old Knitting Factory. I have no idea what its gonna be like. Could be a piece of shit. Youll all hate me. I have a night at Biblios, uh, they gave me a night at Biblios if you wanna do a reading. Not me. Zing has a night for reading at Biblios. Thank ya. Uh, whenever we want for the writers in the section that I curated. So, whenever we want. No one youd be interested in. Youll youll see. Youll see. Abbie Hoffman. Oh mostly people you dont know. Erik Belgum, Dave Mandl, Abbie Hoffman, Jim Neu, our friend. Bruce Andrews. Bruce and Jackson, Blair. Coyle Coyle and Sharpe. Uh, no Erik is in Minnesota. FMU and writes kind of edgy, uh, essays sort of anarchist essays. Um, have you met Dave? I dont think so. Yeah. Its so good. Yeah, listen maybe well have Lewis come and show, show, uh, his movie. Klahr. You know, I mean, that could be included. Well put a sheet up and project the goddamned hell bring a projector. Financially? Watch a video. Me? Im in the magazine. I put a piece of mine in. Kenny G. Thats what were doing in Greece. Im reading in Greece. Ah, the Ichor. Ah, who are you reading with? Youve never heard Charles youve heard Charles read, havent you? Bitter Ann? Bitter Ann? I was talking to her at the Modern about about Ann, yeah. Bitter. Yeah but not Marjorie. Marjorie does not feel

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that way about her work. Its cool. How does he feel about your work? You and Charlie B. and Ann are up at the Ichor. Is I... its a lousy place. The gallery I hear is a is a is a horrible like old mans gallery. Yeah. Elizabeth Fiore says... Yeah. By The Kitchen. The whole thing. Its all moving there. The lamb district. Whos that? Yeah, he just said he was extremely nervous and he hadnt been out of the loop for so long that he drank himself silly to deal with his nerves. He didnt think it would bother anybody. I was surprised that he responded at all but, well, he was like hey man lets get together some time but, you know, we never will. Its not gonna happen. No no I just think that theres more hard feelings than hes letting on. With him, man, Ill tell ya. I didnt. Right. Thats what I mean. I, you know, I like Jeff. No, not violent. It bothered me. It didnt bother anyone else. Last reading he gave there Cheryl and I went we were like oh my god. Yes. It was awful. Yeah, wasnt it Cheryl, going to hear Jeff read? Youre getting soft, buddy. Youre getting soft. Thats what Marjorie kept saying. Theyre getting soft. Theyre too soft. No. That was a criticism of different people. Too soft. She said to me she said to me Im so glad that you are this way. She said I had a fear about you. I thought youd be one of those mushy Cageians who loves nature. She says I thought you were gonna be soft like tha David like that David Rosenberg we have break what did you think of him? David... no, I forget this guys name. No, it wasnt the same guy. He was soft, yeah, Marjorie was like he was he was what did you think? He was so soft, wasnt he? He was. He was an environmentalist. She says she says to David she says I heard the word environmentalist and I just want to run. Cause hes like doing a magazine hes like so Marjorie this is my magazine on nature and culture. She says well, culture Im interested in, nature I couldnt care less about. I saw the guys

face and he has an isro, man, hes got the worst isro and a backpack. Jewish Jewish afro. And, big afro is an isro. Jew ball and then we heard isro and its better. I say to Cheryl does my hair jewball anymore? So. Anyway, uh, this guy, you know, comes into the Museum of Modern Art its very chic chic dining room, its very expensive... yeah, the upstairs, the fancy one. So, this guy walks in with a pair of Birkenstocks, bell bottomed jeans, which are not like cool bell bottoms but kind of like something hes been wearing since like 74. Bell bottoms are in but it would have been something like if they even if he had been like. It was sad. And he strolls in with like, kind of like a dirty button down shirt and blue Jansport like backpack and an isro and kind of kind of... Yeah, its good. And Marjorie just looked at me and was like oh my god, I cant believe I had. Afterward shes Im so sorry I invited David for lunch. Yeah, I had such a good time and then we had to really cool it with him around. He was soft. I couldnt. I dont think I could have handled Marjorie on my own for like 3 hours in the Museum of Modern Art. I just drank as it was. I got trashed. Well, I couldnt keep up with the gossip, I mean I had a lot of gossip but I couldnt sling it. I can be hard. Our hardness? Who can keep it up? Yeah. You like talk, yeah. That what I said, you just rolled over, yeah. Less. I sense a I sense a smack of anti-semitism here. Because its Jewish. Its how Jewish families, not mine, but many other families, function. Nobody listens everybody talks at once. Mine nobody listens, nobody talks. Cause I was saying no heres what was going on in mind. No, the talk is awful. See Bruce I I found my I can do that and the reason I can do that cause thats the way, thats what you do in a Jewish home. Its no coincidence that Marjorie, Charles, and I are Jewish. Unless you blow her away. With volume. You can with volume. Imagine imagine

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growing up in a Jewish home. I dont know we just are difference. You said instead you said like in your home it was just, you know, like people were ignored. But you guys talk and you listen I mean you have discussions. Your home is remarkable in that way. Cheryl grew up in a completely civilized linguistic environment. They have amazing discussions, the content is always great and everybody listens. No, its very no, its unique. Ive never experienced anything like that. No wonder why you would find Marjorie disconcerting, Cheryl. Youre used to being listened to at home. No you had no you had some bad bad rough moments but that was that was one of the better ones. Lets get some more. You guys wanna get some more? You wanna get a little more? Another quarter of a chick? Bruce? Yeah. Uh, why dont we have some white this time? OK, a quarter white and some hot sauce and Bruce would you do you want any more corn or anything? Should we get another corn to munch on? Yeah. What the heck. Its cheap and not only that Bruce, and not only that its this is my treat cause you got me last time. Yeah, last time we were out. So eat, darling. Yeah. Yeah, last time we went out, last Sunday night you you guys picked up my dinner for me at the, uh, Chinese restaurant. I said next time is on me. I can see Charles nobody listened to Charles as a kid. I can see his family must have been fucking competitive and he was shut out completely. This week? Theyre all fucked up, man. Except for Iannis Xenakis cause he has no politics. He was a Communist and was thrown out of Romania in the resistance and sentenced to death. What politics? Then I went to Paris and I just started making music, yeah. His political content in my titles. That was I liked that actually it was very funny. From the concert? I saw these people here with the baby. I dont think so either. It was like Cybersuds. Bruce you missed Cybersuds. Cybersuds

the great Internet networking party at The Knitting Factory on Thursday night. Ay why dont you move downtown sucker? Andrea was there is full form. Oh she said by the way that things did not work out with that guy. That, uh, Brian or that Daniel. Daniel Ben, right. Yes, yes. She wants to date guys. She should fuck Benjamin. You think hes gay? Oh. Shes not. Benjamins Benjamins about our age. He was in the Whitney Program with Simon Leung and uh, Viv. No, theyre all our age. No, no. Does he look older? Shes a lesbian. So anyways you should have seen so Cybersuds. Alright, let me tell Bruce then Ill dovetail into into what happened. Uh, she said he was just really really, like, a downer, like everything was negative like his job really sucked and he was... Everything was a bummer Andrea said. Andrea probably started abusing him. Yeah, hes sort of like a failed actor. Yeah, he failed. At 19 he blew it. Alright. East Village, yeah. He bought an apartment Daniel? Cheryl will you cut that thing in half for us? They went to Walkers. Cybersuds. But she liked that guy from iworld. Andrea? Couple of years. 5 or 6? Take a little take a little chicken, will ya? Take that take that. Bruce, you and I have been known, especially when we saw the man naked. No. This one lacks ambition he doesnt... Either the father is weak. To guys she can. Shes mean, yeah. She lite. Shes emotionally heavy, though. Thats right, and gets self-obsessed with a world that doesnt care about the production of art. Homey homeys back. Hes nice. I know. He was successful he was a successful quote published writer. Had several books out, articles. So, he wasnt a wimp. Hes a professor, he goes to art colonies, hes got a good resume, so she thought, I like him. And Im a male lesbian. Lots of surprises in store. You think she is gorgeous? A few years. Is that right? That was a joke. For a loser whos a sweetheart. She has nothing. The thing that she was so

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excited about the other night that we were probing her was that a very famous art dealer had trailed her for 5 years. It turns out its a very well known art dealer married with two kids, no 3 kids, no hes got 3 or 4 now. Gavins got more than two. Right. Of course we found out. What kind of question is that? Its been a whole week. Famous art dealer. Married married with children. No we tried to get them, yeah, thats right we tried to get them we tried to hook the two of them up, didnt we? Shes pretty speedy. Well she was with Doug when we first met her but hes half a man. Marjorie. Marjorie was saying youre gonna youre gonna like this. Marjorie was saying that in front of Columbia in front of the class at Columbia she was talking about listening to children and listening to them understanding the meaning of language but not understanding the meaning of it. Shes like shes like if I listen to my granddaughter and she will have she will know what a confrontation is and her mother say, you know, Sally were having a confrontation though she doesnt really know what the word confrontation means, she knows it in the context... this all applies to Wittgenstein... and then she looks up at the class and its funny what happens when you get older. You finally find time to listen. Marjories saying this. She said she said I raised two girls and I never even paid attention to their language and I was like oh my god these girls are just. I never paid attention to them now Ive got Ive got more time on my hands, I pay attention to the way my grandchildren are learning language, which I love. Whats Carey? Whos Carey, her kid? What USC? Is she lousy? You know Bruce, its funny, but Marjorie didnt like strike me as being any different than 9 out of 10 people I meet in the art world for many years now. And thats why she doesnt particularly strike me as, like, odd or rude or anything no and Cheryl and I looked at each other and we said

who does she remind you of and we came up with about 6 names. Well, not those. Is that right? Whos more like that? Charles? Collectors the whole deal, yeah. Thats why I knew I knew how to play that one. Isnt she, Marjorie? Shes pretty loaded, isnt she? Such as who? Give me an example of Juliana? Whos somebody I know thats like that? Ulla? Ullas just so warm and friendly. Is that like many academics? Awful, theres a lot of meat on these bones. My wife is criticizing me. Do you have a coffee an an interesting coffee? Ill have a cafe con leche. A troika. Seriously, how did we do? So who do I know thats like that Bruce, a typical academic? Anemic academic. Bork? Bork. I hate Bork. Asshole. Asshole. Disses all my friends. You know this guy? Yeah. Yeah. Hes mean, man, Ive heard him dishing, yeah. Smugly dishing. Just the poets here the poets. You dont know him? Do you not like him? Is that right? Maybe, uh, maybe Im getting him confused with someone else. Maybe Im getting him confused with someone else. Hes a friend of Nicks, isnt he Charles? Hows Nick doing? As a writer? Were they embarrassed about Nick? A lovely guy. I dont know his work at all. Thats like Marjorie, hes soft. Epistle to dippy. Hey you got a nice walk home, right across the park, huh? Nice nice stuff, huh? Very cool. Yeah from First Avenue all the way over across the park? Thats a nice a nice shot. Im jealous. Im very jealous of Bruce? Im jealous of... Look at that bag. Yo yo yo yard sale. See Marjorie would have loved that. She would have loved that that with her little she was wearing a red dress at the MOMA. She was a trip and a fucking half, man, that Marjorie, huh? Unbelievable. Glad I dont look like. She was Marjorie. Have you met her husband? Marjories husband? You were in a frat? Jesus Christ! You really must have you really must have fucking changed! Alright. Was it a gay thing? Were there fingers in anuses and

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things like that? Is that right? Seriously, why were you in a fraternity. What year was this? Even with an Vietnam War stuff going on there was no alternatives to frats? What did you, did you meet girls? Did you date before Sally? Did you date before Sally? Really. You were married, right? Who were you married to? Who are you Ulla you dont want to talk about when you broke down you were institutionalized for writing poetry? I hate him. Dont you? I I I cant stand him! Did she bring him Rowe? She would but it doesnt yeah. Shes so competitive, yeah. Oh, this is your frat brother Rowe? Oh so hes younger too. Academic. Oh, like Marjorie isnt? I hate that guy. Yeah, Cage always told the story about he says to Guy Nearing or one of these mycologist idols it must be great to be in your field, uh, you know, you guys search for mushrooms and you look at plants and everybodys happy together. Not not like the musicians, you know, who who who are competitive and jealous and angry, right, competitive jealous and angry, you know, and and and and bitter. You know and John says, you know, like, uh, you know, John Smith, you guys must get along and the gets red in the face I hate his fucking guts! He did the worst work in in mycology, yeah, and I didnt, right right right. You mean at work or in her personality? Is that right? Oh, I like her stuff. She support you. Not many how many of these other academics? She loves you. No reason to con me. I like her because shes the only one whos doing what shes doing it seems to me. If there was more I always wish there was more people to read talking about language in this way but theres not so I love her work. Shes no, you know, shes no, shes not a philosopher, shes not a big theorist either. Shes report shes doing reportage and she could be doing even more... In the art world thats all there is. Maybe thats why I like her. Pretty much, yeah. It seems it seems so... Who Marjorie and

Rosalind on a panel? Yeah. Is he writing about you guys? And whos the one that hates... That was host of Whitney, uh, Whitney. Uh, Joseph Kosuth is about the grand is the first one of them. But I would never categorize a guy like Lawrence Weiner in with that whos much more of an artist and less of a, you know, theory kind of guy and less, yeah, of any kind of. I dont think Robert Barrys work is theoretical at all. No, I always thought it was much more whimsical and playful. Yeah, completely impoverished. Franz West. Oh, yeah he makes more appealing more appealing stuff. Sophie Calle. Oh yeah, I say Dan Graham. You will disagree with me. Dans work is just real dry, so theoretical and so dry. Its just terrible. Yeah, but in the art world the Whitney Cheryl knows him. Yeah, no thats better. Jannis Kounelis is kind of romantic and Mediterranean trying to be sort of quote poetic, you know, all about memory and... yeah, I did put it in quotes cause I didnt mean I think we mean a different thing poetic. Yeah, poetry of language poetry. Good chicken, huh? Thank you. Yeah. Wait up. Uh, its 10 of 6. Some to pass. Pack her tip. Id love to go rollerblading. Take Bets. You know, walk the dogs and. Could use some exercise. Alright babe. Ready? Hey, thanks for last week. Its a pleas. Alright. Alright alright alright. We malingered on the plank. I told this guy I said Im working for presses I was in the elevator one day this guy overheard me said oh what presses do you work for and I said Hard Press and Hard Press and Left Hand Books and he said oh a couple of porno outfits. Yeah. Hard Press and Left Hand. Oh boy. Lingo, not lingua. Lingo. The place is great. You like that corn Cheryl? Ahhhh. Give him a peasant. That one girl with those weird eyes. She was like... I think they were I think they were a couple of, uh... I think they were a couple of peasants. What the fuck? A couple of peasants I think they were. I wonder where he

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got them? Must have went out to the country. Looking for peasants. You work is political, isnt it? In title anyway. What title? What politics? He was very funny. Right. He denied everything. That was very funny. That was good. I loved that. That was so funny. That was so funny. No, I, no no. How about Lukas Foss? Really. Lukas. Good thing its not like that in the literary world. Theres more freedom there. I mean I have one record of his. Yeah, no, I have one of him conducting The Brooklyn Philharmonic. Yeah, its pretty good. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Ah, so maybe Ill see you on Thursday, maybe I wont. Oh, Jesus Christ! Right, Im gonna see you tomorrow. Jesus, Im sick of you. Alright. OK, cause were gonna walk down 86th grab the subway, yeah. Oh, were at this is Lex. OK, so were at the World Cafe. Columbus and 69th. Guess not. Uh, its sort of more more worlds to... sounds good. Alright. And Im watching 3 dogs, yeah. You know theyre staying at like the Sports Palace in Orlando or something like that. Oh but... Were going directly almost directly from from Greece to, uh, Vegas. Two weeks. Yeah. Hey were Americans, buddy. Ow. Nice to see you, man. See you tomorrow, Bruce. Im sure you have, yeah. Very nice. Judy. Ah. Im tired. I didnt I didnt write anything with political titles. Funny, that was really kind of funny, wasnt it? It could have had more rhythm in it, more rhythm. Yeah yeah. There was no percussion. It was all wind instruments. He has. The ensemble didnt do any. Lukas Foss? Um, a composer whos better known as a conductor. The FMU people were so dead I saw them all and everybody was like ugh. Is that right? Yeah, I mean Robin was Robin, you know, who knows, you know, shes just so insecure and you figure she would point. No. No, shes not Nicks girlfriend. Shes like Nicks big sister. You know you figure, you know, you could ask them a few questions theyd express an

opinion, you know? What that I asked some questions or expressing an opinion? No Nick loves that kind of thing but, you know, with Nick Im always... yeah, I figure I could pull him out a little bit or or or, uh. Also, you know, Robin whos always like this shes like always sort of so interested and so funky, you know, always wants to do so much and then shes kind of like so weird and insecure that she cant even talk and then afterwards I saw Stork, who of course was just dead. And I saw Fabio who of course was so cynical and so dead. They were just like ahhhh. Weird. Theyre all like that, arent they? Kens alive but hes dead in his own way. What can I say I was pissed off I was a little like, oh, cmon you guys. Look alive you could be replaced by a button. That was a famous slogan on one of, uh, on one of Gary Landownes fathers cards. Yeah. Postcards. Look alive you could be replaced by a button. Good color. It says returns. Coke and returns. Did you get it back? Did you have fun with Bruce? Is he hard? Mind the gap. Yeah. Ooh, not so hard. Not so hard. What? About what? No, I dont even remember. Oh, I dont even know where that was? I didnt say that, though. That was gross. Youre right. I agree with you. It was un un intolerable. It was intolerable. That was intolerable. No I wont that was disgusting. It was disgusting. I wanted to annoy him. I just want to annoy people. Its acting out. Its just its just what we saw in the restaurant today. Still acting out. See, youre twisted for your whole life. That was disgusting, Im sorry. I shoot my mouth off all time. Just a nice girl. This is what I should have had. Sue Gross. I should have had... So what did you think? Did you have fun at dinner with Bruce? Is mean, like be mean and gab away in a sophisticated manner. No youre not. He wasnt expecting you at 6 on the button. Youll be there at 6:30. You tell me. Look. You see that? Hey. Count your blessings. What? Thats not me.

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Jewish Museum? Where? Jewish Identity thats not thats not mi mine. Count your blessings, Cheryl. No, you count your blessings. Never has a beverage been so synonymous with celebration. Join stand up comics. Boy. Its like whats his name, the cousin of Terry would go to some of these Jewish singles things, whats his name? Marshall? Ah. Another great subway moment. Who you are. Sorry guy. I like science. What do you think Im gonna hop? Hes trying. Do we see the best shit on the subway or what? That was an amazing performance. Im gonna tell you hop. You got to hop. He was so funny, wasnt he? Cheryl, did you like that? You know lets do the hop. You hop. You go hop. You hop. Now you go home you hop. Im sick of babies. If I dont see another one again... but you hop! You hop. Yeah, theyre very funny. Hah! I love the subway. Keep hopping. Gotta hop. You just gotta hop. What an amazing soliloquy that guy gave. Im bet you know dont spin the wall. She knows every trick. She saw that one a million times. Ive heard your old stories a thousand times. It was cute. She was funny. She was like no, dont stretch me anymore. Ay, you gotta hop. Run on, Im gonna go look at some records. Yeah, Ill just see you later. OK? If Im not at home Ill be up in my office and give me a buzz. OK, how you doing for cash? You got enough? You got two bucks I got a 20. Alright Ill get some money out. Goodbye. Look at these old romance magazines. Those are pretty great, arent they? The truth about abortion. Radio Mirror. Really nice, arent they? God. Not that I want them. Theyre just neat. Ill see you later on, OK? Hop. You gotta get that hop. Ah, thanks. Uh huh. Cheryl. Where are you going? Youre gonna change. I bought one record. Well, were not going I mean I gotta take care of the dogs, why? Uh, well, how long... Ewww! How long you gonna be? Theres Scott Spector straight ahead with some Japanese girl. I thought he

was gone! I thought he was in California! OK, so, uh, lets see. Hmmmm. Im gonna walk these dogs. How long you gonna be? Taking the paintings down with him? Alright, alright I can meet you back. Take Betsy for a little spin. Leave the other ones behind. No. We gotta get it. Look at mugsy. Look at mugsy. Ah, I dont have enough money on me and I dont have a check so. Do you have any shorts stashed away? We can get it before we go, you know, Ive got to walk the dogs first thing. Yeah, well get it tonight, uh, we do need it but I just dont have enough cash or check on me. And I gotta, I mean, the dogs have been locked up for like 10 hours its, I gotta clean up after them and walk them so. Eddie Palmieri, salsa guy. That a gritty. That was according to nice last night. Hugely fat or hugely long. Knowing you. But I know what I do want to do. Hop. You gotta hop. Hop. You told Bruce that I was taping everything? No. Alright dogs. Do you wanna go get them? No? Yep. Shorts? Yeah, I dont get it. You you look just great. You look the same as you always have and you feel the same. Is it just because of the pill? Just a little water? Cmon, go get the laundry. Go put some clothes on. I cant I dont want to carry it all myself. Its too much. Yeah. You look good. You look the same as you always do. The dogs youll youll just have to wait you dogs. Waited this long. I liked what Swami was saying today about the people on that sinking ship how some people were really frantic and others they had their eyes closed and they were peaceful. That was cool. I love those examples that he gives. What? Hes so full of them, yeah. Look at the old Volvo. Looks like our old Volvo. I love those examples I think theyre so cool. I think, you know, because you went on the pill you probably put water on and its probably everything kind of just bloated just slightly, maybe just a little little bit its not noticeable to the eye but you just feel

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it here and there. I dont think theyre a half size bigger I think theyre probably slightly larger, you know, I I just think thats what happens. Its the only explanation. Youre not putting on any real weight or growing anymore. These are three fifty a spin. Hey, nice shoes, man. Are they high? Theyre comfortable, arent they? That all I wear. I bought two of them. Theyre warm in the theyre cool in the summer and theyre warm in the winter, you know? What is that one? How much is this? They dont make them anymore. Thats why I bought these cause I had a pair I like so much and, uh, I bought an extra cause they told me they werent making them anymore. I dont know. Thanks. Alright. Hey look at that. Its a its a pizzeria now. Thats weird, huh? It changed from trendy bar to pizzeria. Theres no commitment here, huh? Whos that? He works in there? You wanna meet back about 8:00 to do some night time rollerblading? Uh, about 10 after 7? Maybe a little bitter later. Quarter after? Hows 8:00 sound to be back at the house? Yeah, well tool around the neighborhood or I dont think it will be light. Uh, we can go down to the river or something it doesnt matter. I could really use some exercise. Well, everything takes a little bit longer as we know, you know? So if you just hang out a little bit those dogs need a little a serious walk. Im probably gonna take them out for at least a half hour. You know? Theyve been cooped up all day, so. So, lets just call it 8 so if you got to hang out its gonna take youre gonna schmooze with Stefano right? Right or wrong? Yeah, its like 7:15. So Ill see you in 45 minutes. Alright. What is that a bull mastiff? Neapolitan, right. Ive only seen them in gray. Bets cmon. Uh, it was the style it is the style then. Yeah, they dont clip them anymore but, uh, theyre all about 6, 7 years old. That was the style. Thats what everyone... yeah. Yeah, shes beautiful. Oh, terrible. You know

these dogs, dont you? You have a dog. What do you have? Yeah, we talked to you on the street, havent we? Hes gonna lick hes gonna lick you. Hes gonna lick the skin off you. Yeah, she is. Babette, come here honey. You like that or is he too much? This is Babette. This is Ginger and this one is this one is Baron. Hes really sweet. Theyre all right. Babette. This ones a little shy, shes a little shy. Ginny, its OK. Babette Babette come. She doesnt understand basketball this one. This one is older, youre right. Do you like heavy metal? Ginger be quiet. Babette. Wheres your dog? Oh, so I dont know you Ive never OK. You look familiar. Yeah, I thought I would talk to you about dogs before around around the neighborhood. So, what are you what are you doing in the city just to... Where are they? Are they playing around? Oh, so youre just hanging around the park. Ginny. Ill tell you something about Ginger, this one. Shes a little bit dumb. Shes a little dumb. Hes very smart and very friendly. Ginger. Bet. Cmon girl. OK. Cmon Bet. Cmon Bet. Bet come. Cmon girl. Bets. Babette. Come. Cmon Bet. Here Bets, cmon. Cmon. Good girl. Ah, theyre friendly. Bets. Really friendly. Baron, yeah. Hes too friendly. Shes a little skittish this one. Yeah. Yeah, theyre terrific. Baron say hi. This guy is crazy. Crazy friendly. Yeah. Alright. See you around. Alright. Ah, theyre scared of him. Yeah, I got 3. Theyre scared of him. I met him before you the little boy had him had him out, right? The little boy had him out here before. One is 7, 4 and 6. OK, come on now. See you around. Come on Bets. OK Bets, come on girl. Come on. Bets stay. Good girl. Bets ips. Bets no. Cmon Bets no. Cmon. Cmon Gin. Cmon Baron. Cmon guys cmon guys. Come on. Come on Bets. Hi. Hi. Um, so I had my encounter with Scott Spector on the street. Yeah, I was walking Bets and the dogs and he was sitting in front of Blue Ribbon on the

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chair bench out there. I just looked at him and I smiled. And hes with that girl and he just looks at that girl and says thats Kenny the asshole Goldsmith. He stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from me. And I just looked at him and I kept yeah yeah, you know, and I just walked on. Hold this major rage. I just finished returning this persons mail and then well go. It obviously bothered him a lot more than it bothered me. I was gonna say, you know, Im actually ready to just say to him, you know, if I saw him hey how you doing? I would. What? I didnt look at her I just looked at him. I just looked at him right in the eye and I smiled. Theres another Coyle & Sharpe devotee. He heard the the first time on NPR about two weeks ago and then a laugh out loud. Its the kind of thing I would do myself if I could just keep a straight face. I had a friend who would do this sort of thing whenever he was standing in a line. I usually had to walk away to laugh. Let me just finish writing this person back. To blade? Wanna get out the blades? Yeah. Cheryl it was so weird to me because its so sort of obvious that hes kind of gone nowhere in his attitude at all with anything. You know, its like 5 years later or something and hes just, you know, just the same. It was just really weird. Yeah. Yeah. I didnt I didnt I didnt want to throw shit back I Im over Im just finished with that. Yeah, oh it was like remember when we saw him just walking with that girl I was kind of like oh, you know, we each made a little comment to each other? And then we just kind of changed quickly changed the subject? Right? You know? You know, as if it was like, oh yeah, you know, oh, you know, hes an asshole but life goes on. Poor girl, right? You you could see by the rage in him that, like, noth, like he like he hasnt progressed like an iota over, uh, over, uh, the old days. There you go. So, yeah, its weird. Its kind of like what Swami was saying about you dont steal

something even though you know you could get away without getting caught cause you know kind of what the consequences in other words what will stick with you when you steal it, you know? And its his own worst punishment there. 5 years later, hes just still, you know. Everywhere he goes its yeah. And he. Its truly his own hell. Yeah because Im not so strong. I dont wanna go kind of real real fast especially first time out. If you want to go ahead you can. How was things at Stefanos? What is it? Tell. Yeah, youre right, shes gonna bark here. Well call back later, honey, youll eat later. Dumb dogs. So what did he do? Uh huh. Wow. Who is who is this guy? Yeah, who is he? Young guy? Great. Is it gonna be good? Go nuts? Good. Nice guy? Kind of like me. Kind of like you. Kind of like Scott Spector. She remembers this game. When the blades come on. Nice VCR. Fancy. Hey Bets, membership has its privileges in this family. Right? She gets to go while all the others stay behind. Yeah, I got them. No, its well go together. Cheryl whos gonna who is going to change the, uh, no no no this way. Whos gonna change the laundry, uh, the trash bags there? Whos gonna change the trash bags in front of the house when Diane and Lois are gone? And whos gonna, you know, like take out the recycling and stuff like that? Yeah. Cmon Bet. Definitely. Yeah. Wanna go out to the river? Wanna go out to the river? Oh Betty girl, are you up for this? OK. Dog power! Alright. Ip. Hows it feel? Little rusty? Yeah, lets get new wheels. Cheryl I think the streets OK no ones coming. Oh, look at the, uh, moon! Beautiful! So lets go down to Battery lets go down to the Battery City, OK? What? Yeah, its pretty, isnt it? Oh, its so cool by the water, isnt it? Really, what do they what do they make? Really? What do they have rubber wheels? So were really were really out of it. These things are about 5 years old, arent they? Alright. Its time for some new ones.

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Where shall we go? Well go to the one on Canal St. look at how pretty those clouds are. Well go to the one on Canal, OK? Right near us. Hey, Cher. Cheryl its closed that park so lets go over to the other one. This animals gonna need a drink, OK? Ah, this is nice, isnt it? You wanna get fast wheels. Yeah, I wanna get fast ones. Lets do that this week. I can put em on if we buy them. Yeah Ive Ive changed changed my wheels a few times over the years. Ive rotated them. Yeah, mine are that way too even even though I rotate them. So how do we get around now? Can we cut through anyway or...? I dont think that goes through god look at that a whole new building. Something tells me weve got to go around this way to get there. Do you want to even bother? Cheryl, this is a dead end honey. I gotta fix my skates. Come here lets set her. Look at this. OK. Go on Bets. What way do you? I dont think we can get through. What down and around? Yeah, we can go down where that car is, see where it just came up and they just go down and around unless... I knew she was gonna wanna roll there. Look at how pretty the sky is. Are you upset? Whats sad whats making you sad? I wanna really do it. I mean Ive always thought in the long run I should go up and shake his hand. That that, yeah, I mean really. Ive adopted so many interesting attitudes. So have you from from that horrible experience. That, you know, I I maybe its like we were just gonna crash one way or another, you know, without a les a real hard lesson. God knows. Yeah, you know what? We ended up with a much better set of attitudes. Its all for the best. Hard to say. Boy, would it be hard to shake his hand and thank him. But thats why I smiled at him, you know, I didnt I just wasnt gonna get into the hostility business with that guy again, you know? You know? Just, its just too simpy to try to do something like that. I have to come up with a better a more sophisticated

response, you know? What Swami was saying today about how this whole thing is like just hanging on a string. We can go down this way. Yeah go on. Cheryl we can go this way. This is open. Does this go anywhere? Not really. Yeah, lets lets go check it out. What? Wow, what what do you think its for? Lets just look. Its like dirt biking or something? Thats neat. What do you think I wonder what its for? The biking. Bets stay. Yeah. Its like were in the country. Pretty nice, huh? This park is so great. Cher you like that what Swami was saying? He loves Einstein. Yeah, this really shits for blading, doesnt it? Lets try to get her some water. Yeah, hold on Cher I gotta yeah youre right I gotta I wanna get her some water. Its totally dry. Let me see if theres any water here. The dogs really thirsty. Fuck. Uh, she will but Im, you know. She cant drink sea water. All the fountains have not been filled. Hey Cheryl Im. We got to get her some water I mean, shes like, deeply thirsty. Its really cruel to go on. Let me see maybe Ill ask up here. Hey, can I dump a little water in a dirty glass for my dog? Can I dump a little water in a dirty glass for my dog? She needs a little water, yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. Thank you. They havent turned the fountains on yet, you know? Thats where I usually give her water but. Yeah, the havent turned the fountains on so I just figured Id give her a dirty glass with a little bit of water in it hope you dont mind. Cmon Bets. Cool, yeah, we eat here sometimes cause you let the dogs in here. Bets. Yeah, it feels better thank you. Come here girl. Thats so nice of you but actually I think this is alright I think shes I think shes doing OK. Shes 7. Yeah, they dont have the fountains on yet I usually give her water in there. Here you go, Bets. Thank you. Thanks for your help. Babette. Cmon cmon. Bets. Thats it. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you help a lot. Thank you. Yeah, she charmed her way. Well, why dont we go to the end.

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Well be OK. Yeah and then well be be close to home but, you know, no they were so nice to her they were like oh, can we get her a tin? Im like oh no just a dirty glass theyre like we usually have a tin for for dogs out here. They were really sweet. Got these guys from the cops here I think. Yeah, I dont want to have another run in. They, uh, with the dogs. They dont like dogs past a certain point. Yeah, arent they? God, look at that moon, huh? Nice. Good. Good for Kenny G. to have a little aerobic exercise. Lets sit down on the bench here. OK. Halil!? Halil!? His his Finnegans Wake. Its unbelievable, yeah, its a bummer, isnt it? Depressing. Halil! Fiddler On The Roof when Tevye says... I know he said it in all seriousness too like with a totally straight face. So we should probably head down here because the road is so rough up there. Someone may have a heart attack soon. Look at her. Yeah, her trail. Yeah, why dont they just block the goddamned windows out? Well, then it gives it a semblance of well, weve got a river view but you never get to look at it. Id put a rear view mirror on top of my computer. Oh boy. Right. When what? My voice is taken out? Whats that mean? Oh oh. I forgot. I forgot. Hey were winding down the last hours here on our taping marathon week. Whats gonna be the last words said? And were running down on a weeks worth of tape. Like ass. Cmon Bets were almost there, old girl. Shes struggling now. Betty! This reminds me of like when we took her this summer when we took her biking to the to the, uh, pond. So remember she went in the pond she got right up afterwards and ran right home? Ah, theyre animals. Damn animals. You filthy animal. Buck. Good girl. Membership in this family has its privileges, pal. The other two are sitting there stewing. No, none. Oh, well have our share. Im not up for anything substantial. We can go out. What do you want to get? Well I

dont really feel like crossing this river here. This thing. River of cars. We have to cross this one but, alright you wanna go over to the store? Yeah, cmon. Ah, cause theres one right here. What selfishness it is to own a car. Hey, would you get me a, uh, beer? Ill wait out here. Heres the money. Uh, how bout a Becks? Ill just wait here, OK? OK. Shes a filthy animal. That was great. Perfect. Ugh, nobodys somebodys on the floor. I think, uh, we need to do a general straightening up around here, huh? Yeah, why dont we do that together? Ah, hello Mom. Hi. So I got your message and I found it so I made a reservation at 6 for us and the 2 girls and Bruce is gonna join us for coffee at 7:30. OK? So thanks for having us yesterday. How was Sues baby? Probably not as good as ours, huh? Was there a lot of comparison going on? But ours is prettier, isnt it? And and and cuter? Sues is a little ugly, isnt it? What is it is something wrong with it? Is it malnourished? Alright. So Ill see you tomorrow. Bye. No I was I was just trying to get her to say so. No, it was cute. Magda its Kenneth. Thats better. I dont like that negative phrasing from you. OK, so we have a dinner date tomorrow at 6. Cheryl can I have the card? Its at the at a place called the World Cafe. World Cafe. Like world as in world. And its at Columbus Avenue and the corner of 69th St. OK and if in case you get lost the phone number there is 799-8090. Now, um, so itll be your friend OK and and me and my Mom. Cheryl is teaching tomorrow night. Yep, not tomorrow night. Soon though. Another time. OK. Great. OK, well, great. So, weve got a date for tomorrow at 6 and Ill see you then. You remember what I look like? I look exactly the same. Alright? Look forward to seeing you. Look forward to having dinner with you. Bye. See ya. Sit down have a have a bite to eat with me and a chat. Have a drink. Well, that was an interesting day, huh? Bruce is funny he gets like hung up

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on that theory stuff and academic he wants so badly to to have clout in the poetics field as an academic, doesnt he? Its what hes trained as. Its how he makes his living. But, you know, hes got this big book of his critical essays coming out of a of a university press. And he was saying, you know, there are much heavier theoreticians than her which, you know, Im sure there are. Yeah yeah. But. Yeah, shes no philosopher. But, you know, I think Bruce, I dont know I mean its like I he gets, you know, look because of such weird exposure to theory weve had in the art world we kind of know the game around that especially in art like you were saying I think you pinpointed it beautifully at lunch, you know, you youre pointing out like the Daniel Burens and the Kosuths and the, you know, and the Andrea Frasers. I think Bruce wants so badly to have academic recognition, you know. I think Bruce is just really really hungry for recognition of any kind of sort, you know? Charles has, you know, he has two books of essays out from Harvard, you know, on poetics and some other and a few other presses hes got a new one coming out from Oxford. But hes, you know, these guys are I guess theyre, you know, sort of theoretician slash poet slash artist. Hes primarily known as poet but hes also a, Im sorry, theoretician slash poet slash academician. And, you know, its just like... Yeah, well what I read what I read into it like particularly today about him kind of getting kind of heavy on the theory and... Hes so great, you know, as he is. Bruce? Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think its... yeah... work... yeah. Youve seen some dances that Sallys done that you dont like. Yeah. He doesnt like you either. He doesnt know you nor does he know your work. I mean she saw your show. She was just really jealous of you. Yeah, thats what I think hes just pretty phenomenal in a lot of ways just, you know, get a grip. Youre pretty alright, babe, you know?

Yeah. Your your dinner your dinner. And the absinthe party he fit right in. He just just made himself cozy. We loved when Charles Bernstein fell off the chair. That was good. So, last night after Charles Luces opening, but you I want you to go see Charless show. Will you go see Charless show? It looks good it looks really good I like I know you probably hate it but Im, you know, so I walking down Broadway and who do I run into but Susan Silas and Lauren Lesko. So I went to Metro Pictures with them and Susan was like we never see you. I was like, didnt I just see you at Cheryls opening? Shes like that wasnt really seeing you. I said, yeah, well OK didnt the Sunday after that didnt we see you at Michael Smiths with Jett shes like yeah but that wasnt really seeing you. Shes they want so badly to see us. They like us. It was funny to see Gary Simmons. He put on a little weight. A little chubbier but it may may just be the haircut but otherwise it was like exactly the same. It was weird to see him. I just asked how Tiffah was. We talked about dogs. 6 years old. Oh, Betty. Betty girl. Why dont you bring one back. Why dont we get a teeny one and put it where the, uh, box is there? Oh, move it down a little bit. My parents had one in their basement just sitting there a teeny little T.V. like smaller than like about the size of the little one we used to have. Yeah. Sitting there we could take it if we wanted. I Im not the one that says no. I dont care. Get one. You just took them to your studio. Why dont you bring one home then? Why dont we buy another little one? I put one we can put one right on top of the chest there. Why dont you get a T.V.? Why dont you bring your little one home? Do you need both of them? Listen you owe Alix a call. You knew she called yesterday, right? She wanted to hear what you thought of Richards show. She wanted to go over that with you. I dont really give a fuck. Poor Schwann. So what did you

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think of Mark Swed today? Dynamic? Handsome? No I mean remember that time when like Suzanne had that group that paid at at her studio? His wife was one of the students. Right. I flopped. Listen, did you ever get back in touch with her and ask for your money? You should try to call her tonight. We could definitely use 100 bucks. Like def. I dont know you know the Merrill Lynch phone number? You can call. Well, well do an investigation. But we could use it. We can always use it darling. So, call her. This minute. Get your money. No, Im joking. When you when you feel like it. How was that chicken today? Pretty good, huh? Polo Loco. Pollo. Marcus Polo. Marco Polo. Loco Polo. In the water. Marco Polo. I dont know what was the point of it? To get to hide? Right. Right. Marco. Polo. That John Schlenck is one sex pot. Really, he looks like he needs some sun, some exercise, and some burgers. Yeah, Ive come to like just think that I used to kind of like want him to really like me no in the end have to go up and, you know, do everything and when he walks up the aisle I always want him to like touch me or something. Now I just feel like yeah, you know, youre there youre not there hes just gonna down the ages I love it every week he uses that slogan down the ages. Down the ages wise men... Acha. Achay. That place is fu thats a pretty easy going place I think. Richards so the best. Did you ever notice the side of the podium is all rubbed off where the hand goes? Oh yeah go look at it. Its pretty intense. Whens he coming in? I think Swami is away though. I think Chetananda is coming in, no whats his name, Saradevananda. When does Saradevananda show up? Swamis gonna be away whens the last session does it say the last session is when? Does it say its closing in May? Huh. I guess its closing in June. Swamis missing the last few sessions. I think Saradevananda is coming from the middle of May to the end to June. Hes going

to England. Betty girl. Betty girl. Youre so sleepy. You did good wearing that fur coat. Wearing that fur coat. Its its yeah, its Fabios show Im sure didnt go. Cheryl can this thing go back to your studio? The mound of glory. The mound of glory! I didnt make that up. Put your rollerblades away. The shoes are so beautiful. They are like like too small. What am I gonna do? Do we can we have them stretched? You know theyre really nice, arent they? Theyre really theyre still cool arent they? Yeah, I never bothered to have them stretched I really like em. How do you have them stretched? Here go pull them down. Ill go get them stretched. You mean this guy can actually widen them for me? Theyre really nice, man. Theyre really like super nice. Yeah. These are comfortable, I mean they will be. Ah, now just tell me to do them both, yeah. Look at how many fuckin shoes you have! That wont fit. Blair Kenny. How are ya? Oh the upgrade? Oh, you wanna forward it to me? OK, well, OK at any rate, um, so whats the problem? You know what? Im not going to be able to answer them because, well, no I dont use it I just write regular old html. So I havent played around with this thing nearly enough to give you any advice with it. You probably know more about it at this point than I do. Uh huh. Well why dont you just take some time and, uh, and, uh, learn html. Right. Right its not, right. Yeah, you should just just, you know, get get that old copy of BBEdit out and write some html. Yeah or like what we learned at that class I think thats probably gonna be the best idea. Yeah, I dont know what to say hon I guess you somebody they should you cant just expect to learn html overnight its not its not realistic. You know, its not its just not a, uh... right it, right. Yeah. Yeah, well it sounds like I dont know it sounds like theyve given you all this responsibility, you know, I mean I think everybody thinks that that

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html and and and making web pages is, you know, really easy, you know, and well, its like any other program its just a matter of learning it. I mean, so they Interep wants you to build their website? Its its not, I mean, its its its a whole other program and its a whole other skill. Right? So anyway, you know, I wouldnt I wouldnt sweat it I would just tell Jane to have you just take some time, you know, and learn learn to do it or why why dont you give that that document to the people who are building your website let them do it. I dont think it should really be your problem, you know, I mean it doesnt strike me, you know, like it should really be your problem in any in any way, really cause its, you know, I understand you wanted to take it on but, you know, just cut yourself a little slack and and know that these things take take some time to learn. So, you know, you can never learn overnight and if you want to do it do it, you know, and learn it on work time but dont, you know, or or give it to the html people to take care of on this one youll know youll learn it for the next time but I wouldnt, you know, beat myself up about it. Yeah, its not that easy, you know? Uh huh yeah yeah well. Yep yep yep yep yep. Youre not gonna learn it overnight I mean it, you know, I wouldnt let it go but I would take some time to learn it. You, you know, you just you can you cant learn it overnight. Oh, Id probably use a little bit of PageMill Id probably use a little BBEdit, you know, Id do do a little bit of this and a little bit of that and, you know, make it work. You cant just paste it in because youve got to in BBEdit youve got to hand enter in tags. Yeah, so, you know, I, you know, yeah I mean Id know how to do it but Ive been doing this full time for a year so, you know, with no problem but you you cannot expect to simply, you know, just go and start doing it its its some kind of a weird, you know, if I if its like taking an 80 page document in

Photoshop and you just picked up Photoshop last week. How could anybody expect you to do that? So I think... Well, no you dont. Just have her give it to the html people, you know, I mean, give it give it give it to people who know what they are doing. If they have people building a website then theres gonna be people that know how to do it and just give it to them to do. You know? What can cant you do that? Yep yep yep yep, uh huh. No I mean these are all things this is the craft of html. Any anybody can take an image and scan it but can you make it function in Photoshop, you know, its not its not that simple. You just cant you just cant go into something and and, right. I mean theres a million things to know and youre never gonna learn it overnight, you know, and I mean I dont know Im not sure where everybody gets the idea in their mind that html is such a snap. Its like saying Photoshop or Quarks a snap. How long did it take you to learn those those programs or AutoCad, you know? Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. No its just just links. No, I dont care its its your work. Yeah yeah yeah. Sure, just just make a link. It is its easy its easy, yeah yeah just make a link. No problem. Uh huh. Uh huh. Are you upset? Yeah. Right. Right. Well, I dont I dont know what to say, you know, I dont know what to say. Maybe you guys need to put up and you wanna pay someone Ill do it, um, Ill do it for you, um, Ill whatever you need. I dont mind doing that if you guys are in a bind. But I do need to be paid. And the other, you know, but on the other hand its nothing that I could walk you through tonight because there are a thousand things to know about about, you know, what makes an image work on the web and what makes an image not work on the web and what you can use BeyondPress for and what you cant. Now, you know, if you if she wants to if she wants to have me do this job Id be happy to to show, you know, do it and you

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could sit next to me and I could show you every step and why Im doing what Im doing. I dont mind teaching you and showing you at all ever about anything, you know? But theres so much to teach and so much to learn and so many little tricks and things about this, uh, Internet stuff, you know, so many. People dont understand it. Everybody makes it think makes it seem like its so easy, um, but, you know, theres its learnable and its knowable but its gonna take a little bit of time. Well I mean why dont you just send why dont you just send me the Quark document? Why dont you just stick it in the mail for me Ill have a look at it and tell you how long its gonna take me and what its gonna cost them, um, you know, and Ill Ill Ill give, you know, Ill let you know if its something you guys really need, you know, I, you know, dont mind doing it, um, you know, and if, you know, she wants, you know... Well, um, I would but I need certain things probably to do it that are on my machine, you know? Um, you know, um, I dont I dont know if I feel like spending a whole day I dont know if I feel like spending a day there or something but I dont mind I wouldnt mind doing it at my place just cause it seems like the Internet you dont really need to be anywhere physically and, you know, if she wants to, you know, I mean you could just come down, you know, instead of going to work that day you could come come down. Yeah, bring me the thing and well look at it together and, you know, it could be part of your job. Tell her look, you know, you can explain to her exactly what I said to you that this is never something thats learned overnight but that, you know, I can learn Kenny can do it, I can learn, Ill sit with him, um, he can probably do it in a relatively short time and Ill learn it and, uh, kill two birds with one stone. I dont know, you know, I have to look at it really. Yeah, well, I mean if I yeah or if I once I show you, you know, and tell

you the tricks and blah blah blah you can sit with me and hang out with me while I do it and then, you know, Ill tell you exactly what Im doing and then then next time you approach it youll youll know what what to do and what what what not to do what will work and what will not work. Itll be a learning thing as well so you could tell her, look, I could learn this stuff and he could do it. But, you know, you know what Im saying? You know if you wanna just email the Quark document... How big is it? Well, you I mean thats doable you can you can mail me a 600k document, I mean, thats no big deal. You know just stuff it and and and blow it over, you know, it thats thats nothing. Yeah I mean, you know, if you guys are in a bind Id be happy to help you. You know, I dont wanna sound like a total prick but, you know, it theres a lot to know and a lot to learn, like, a lot. And its, you know, its something Ive been doing full time for months for a year and its just. Yeah, the Quark thing is not, I mean, well it it might might do a little something. I dont use it much. But Id be more than happy to teach you, uh, how to do it. Oh no you do you do what you do well. I mean, youre very good, you know, youre better way better than I am at Quark, thats for sure, yeah, its just all all what we decide to, you know, spend our time learning. All we can do is be a specialist in one thing. Unfortunately we cant we cant do it all. One thing people are not understanding and I think one thing you are not understanding is that, yes, you cannot make you cannot make an html document look like a Quark document now you can use some tricks, you can use tables which are much more advanced html commands things like tables to make things work. Well thats yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, you can fake things pretty good but again, you know, its its its its its its knowledge, you know, its its like lots to know how to how to write html to create

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tables, you know, its just a lot to learn and a lot to know, you know, its its just writing raw tags theres no theres no editor that will write a table for you. Youve got to do it by hand. PageMill doesnt know tables. It doesnt understand them. It doesnt matter, I mean, you cant its not its not gonna... no its not... html table is not the same as a regular table, believe me. Its its its really dumb and clunky and but, you know, thats the way it has to be done right now. It wont always be this way but right for the moment it is. So, if you guys are in a bind, you know, Ill be happy to have a look at it and give you an estimate, you know, give Interep an estimate and, you know, whatever needs to be done can be done Im sure, um, and Id be happy to teach you anything that I know, of course, you know, as always. Right and listen, you know, if it was your own homepage, you know, Id say Blair come on over well do it but, you know, its its a its a job is a job. Its, you know, you know, if it was if this was your visual poetry, you know, like like when youre over that day, I mean its like who, of course. Id do it for you in a heartbeat. But its a different, you know, its work, you know, Interep makes plenty of money. Why dont you call are you working tomorrow? So give me a buzz. Ill be in my office all day. Ill just be there working or send me email or have her call me but if its something that you guys need done I mean I can do it and I can do it real fast, you know, I can it is doable. Whatever it is its doable and I can do it and I can do it real quick too. Alright? Alright my dear and, um, you know about that link thing, you know, that nobody has to check with you for having a link. Having a link to your page is great. God, you know, everybody wants a link to their page. So, just, alright? So, why dont we talk tomorrow? I should be in sort of by 10:30, 11. Ah, what does that mean? No, but, you know, I mean do you need if you need to get in touch with me. I

wont be on forever. If Im on if Im on if Im, you know, Im Im usually online at most for about 20 minutes. OK? Yeah, get in touch. Lets lets do it. And dont sweat it. Give yourself a little break. Dont be so you cant, you know, Rome wasnt built in a day. Youll learn this stuff but I just think youre falling into a common fallacy that html is is doable by everyone. You know, who, you know. Well, but do you have a server? OK. If they said do it in PageMill that means write it in html so... Alright, well listen if you guys decide that you want to do it in html give me a buzz tomorrow. Alright? Alright, hon. Just just, you know, stop doing it, do some art and stop worrying about it. Its Sunday night and talk to me tomorrow. OK, Im there if you need me. OK, babe, bye. Cause because shes Blair. Uh, shes Blair, I dont know. Thats a problem. Shes Blair. Oh, shes got a 70 page Quark document that needs to be turned into a a html document and she thinks she can do it in PageMill. And, you know, she... No, well I mean you just have to know, you know, yet theres, you know, theres much to learn. Yeah, something like that, yeah, its impossible. Yeah, I get these kind of calls all the time from, you know, people like like Dick Higginss boyfriend who thinks, you know, he thinks he can just go and hey everybodys on the web! I can do it too! People undervalue html cause, you know, they have simpy programs like PageMill, which I like but youve got to be able to do other things so. Its annoying. No its you cant do it all in PageMill its just, you know, yeah but it went right through her. Is this place a little neater? Did you put the laundry away? Im gonna do that. Shes sitting there trying to convert a 50 page, you know, Quark document into a web document, like, tonight and she doesnt know what the fuck shes doing. I said Id help them out but I gotta get paid. Its from its from work. She led her boss on to believe that that this

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was something worth doing cause, hey, everyones on the web, you know, same old same old kind of hoo-ha. Oh yeah, the web its hot everyones on it. I can do it too. Well, you cant. Its not... From when? Its only part of the, I mean, thats right it is because you cant do all sort of things and, you know, the other thing is, you know, its only its only a fraction of what the Internet is. Its FTPing, its learning to set permissions, youve got to make sure everything works, its, you know, complicated, you know, its very complicated. Well, no, I mean I learned it by doing the number of websites Ive done. File transfer protocol. Its how you move files from one computer to another. Anyway, I dont, you know, I dont want to talk about it right now. How long do I work. And the other thing is Im a little pissed off, you know, because, you know, Ive spent all this time learning all this stuff and getting really good at it and I have yet to really make any money at it so when Blair kind of calls me on, you know, begging for my help, Im happy to give her help. Im not, you know, Ive spent too much time to just give my all my information away. I need to be paid. Sure would. I told Blair I dont mind teaching her if it was for her own homepage Id say hey come on over Ill tell you anything you need to know but its but its a corp she works for a corporation Im like, no. Sorry. They dont they dont get my advice. You do youre my friend. Thats what she gonna try to do. Do that thing. Interep radio, whatever that means. Of course Id teach you. Yeah, no, of course I would. If I had enough if I had enough work, if I had too much work man, just like we already did. Sure, are you kidding? I can fuck the secretary. Yeah no, we did great, I thought we did great. Even all you did was even when you just laid that stuff in on PageMill, uh, we I thought you did, you know, you did a, you know, you did a tremendous job. Are those yours or mine? No you did-

nt make any mistakes and then I just went in and enhanced it with advanced html commands. But, you know, right. I aint gonna fuck Blair, Ill tell you that. Blown by the 80 year old. This house is looking much cleaner, isnt it? She was just sitting there, you know, like grinding away, you know, thinking that an html document can look exactly like the Quark document on a Sunday night. Ugh. I wanna get paid for my knowledge, man. I mean, I dont know everything but I know a lot and I spent a lot of time learning it and I need to get paid for for my for this knowledge finally. You know? Im realizing, you know, Brian McHugh was the same fucking problem. Brian just thought he could waltz in there and learn learn html, you know, in a minute. Hey, everyones doing it. So I gave the guy a lesson just to get him off my back for, like, 4 hours and he does he still doesnt know what hes doing. You know, Brians good on the computer its just you people think its too easy so they, you know, theyre not gonna put the time in. The fact of the matter is that you its like its as complicated or more complicated than Quark, Photoshop, and, you know, all the other ones. Just because its hot and everybody thinks its fun, you know, everybody thinks its easy and they all can do it. Did I sound nice at least? Yeah yeah. God, do you think I should throw this shirt out? Its not only html. Theres a million little things that are connected with it like FTPing and blah blah blah, you know, theres tricks and theres theres theres online editing and theres zillions of little things, whats gonna work and whats not and thats whats tough. This is nice this apartments looking a lot neater. NAFT gets 75 dollars an hour for looking at my computer. I think I should make at least that much operation, you know? I pay those guys 75 dollars an hour. Get me to my ass. Yeah. Well I I thats not going to be the case, you know? If I work Ill get paid. You know and

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you know how much money Ive spent learning this? I mean I might have only taken one course but you know how much time and money and and shit Ive gone through to learn this stuff? FMU Ill Ill give my time to, you know, cause those are going in the box. For friends or non profit Ill give everything Ive got. For corporations, Ill get paid. OK, good job cleaning up. Hey. Well other stuff. Do you, um, are you gonna come to the zing thing? Yeah. OK, good, you know, your pieces are in there. Sure. Well. Right. OK. OK. The other thing I wanted to know is would you be interested in giving a reading? I know its something youve never done before but, uh, you know, we have that night at Biblios, uh, you got that in the message. Yeah, I sent you this message about the party last night and there was a reading. Oh, we have a night at Biblios for readings. Yeah yeah and and just for my section alone and I can kind of, I dont know, its I havent set a date but if it it may be something you might be interested in doing. Or something new it doesnt matter. Whatever you want to do it doesnt have to be from the magazine. So, so think about it. I dont have any dates set. Just just put it in the back of your mind and and if its something youre interested in Id love to have you read. OK, well. Keep keep it in the back of your mind. OK? And call me tomorrow and let me know whats up. Uh, if you if you need this Ill clear some space out for you this week or as soon as you need it. OK? You know, I can I can just push it to the front and do it quick for you guys. OK. See ya. Speak to you tomorrow. Bye. OK, sweetie the whole place is straightened up. Alright? OK? Im just gonna Im gonna do some email and then some reading, OK? How you doing alright? You want me to turn this off? What are you thinking about? What? Tell, are you so absorbed in thought? You thinking about how bad my eye is and how I should call the eye doc-

tor? What are you thinking about? Toast! Theres you stuffing man. How is this music? Interesting or not really? Im gonna bring your computer back here. You want me to get it? Do you have some work to do on it? Yeah. Ill bring it back to you. Tell me about this music a little bit. How do you feel after that rollerblade? Im gonna hang out and read for a little bit and then what? What? After your show? You feel good. Its up in my office. This sounds like the soundtrack to what? Name the captive. I called it this morning when you were walking the dogs. What is this now? Selling a soundtrack? Whats why isnt Kathy? Is it really queer? Listen. Wheres wheres Kathy? Why isnt she calling you back? Who? Oh god. Thatll be an eternal phone call. You wanna w the ds with me? You wanna w the ds with me. Oh, right, Cheryl. Amie is not getting off the phone any time soon. I love that music. Um, The Great Gatsby. Did that take place in an earlier time and then move forward? Right. Yeah. You know your music. Do you like this? What part of the Gatsby is this? Like the big dance? Did you? Did you ever read the book? Daisy Miller. How did you know that if youd never seen the film or read the book? What? Huh? Cheryl? If you can shut the door and the receptions still good. Give it a shot. You make Bets. Make make make. Good girl. It is pretty warm out. Bah ram ewe. Ah. How you doin? You sleepy? It is to dob. Im sleepy. Well then. Good night. Good night Cheryl. I love you.

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Postscript

if every word spoken in new york city daily were somehow to materialize as a snowflake, each day there would be a blizzard.