Tech News Weekly 373 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
 

00:00 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Coming up on Tech News Weekly. Abrar Alhiti joins me for the full show. We start out by talking about where self-driving is taking us, then we talk about Sonos and its work on a set-top box, before we discuss the Beatles winning a Grammy for their AI-assisted song and how things are going for developers of VR games. All that coming up next on Tech News Weekly.

00:32 - TWiT.tv (Announcement)
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00:41 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
This is Tech News Weekly episode 373, with Abrar Al-Hiti and me, micah Sargent, recorded Thursday, february 6th 2025. Ai wins a Grammy. Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where, every week, we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am your host, micah Sargent, and I am joined today, because it is the first Thursday of the month, by CNET's own Abrar Alhiti. Welcome back, abrar.

01:13 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Thank you so much for having me. Good to be back. Month two, here we go.

01:16 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yes, we love it. We love it. We are in February. I like the I don't know if you did it on purpose, but the delightful pinks that you're wearing.

01:28 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I didn't do it on purpose, but the delightful pinks that you're wearing. I didn't do it on purpose, but I love that you made that connection. I never would have, so let's pretend that, yes, that's exactly my intention. I'm very on brand here.

01:32 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, very intentional, very good, we're living, we're loving, loving February, okay. So anyway, I'm excited because today Abrar has agreed to join me for the entirety of the show. We'll both be bringing two stories of the week to the table and, abrar, you were the person who introduced me to in an actual I've done this thing way of being in a self-driving car, so I'm really excited to hear about your first story of the week. Yes, I am become quite obsessed with self-driving car, so I'm really excited to hear about your first story of the week.

02:05 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Yes, I am become quite obsessed with self-driving cars lately, just because there's there's so much happening in this space right now, and what I wanted to talk about was how uber is expanding its partnership with waymo, meaning that in austin sometime soon we don't know exactly when people in austin will be able to use the Uber app to summon a Waymo robo taxi. So, instead of just getting your standard Uber ride with a human driver, you could have a self-driving ride if you just want to control the music and be alone and enjoy that serenity. This is interesting to me because of the relationship between Uber and Waymo. Right, so they've had a contentious start to their relationship. You might remember back in about 2016, when a Google engineer had left that company, but this is back before Waymo was spun off from Google's parent company, alphabet. This engineer had left and went to Uber and then was later convicted of stealing Google's trade secrets. Yeah, acquired Uber and then was later convicted of stealing Google's trade secrets. So, yes, so that was quite dramatic and since then, uber and Waymo seem to be getting along. But I also saw this really interesting New York Times story, which I think does a really good job of characterizing this relationship where, yes, uber and Waymo are getting along, but kind of because they have to right now, because if you're Uber, you're thinking we want to maintain our business.

03:28
We tried our own self-driving effort. It didn't really work. We sold it off. We're now just focused on our bread and butter human-driven rides. But self-driving is a thing that's not quite going away yet. Yes, it's expensive, yes, it's very difficult to develop this technology, but people are still doing it, and by people I mean Waymo and Zoox and RAV Cruise. And then there are a few startups, too that are working on those companies, like AV Ride and May Mobility. But the point being, uber is trying to figure out and Lyft is trying to figure out, how do we stay relevant as self-driving continues to take off? And now Waymo is probably thinking okay, we have our own Waymo One app. If you're hailing a ride in San Francisco or in LA or even in Phoenix, you can use the Waymo One app to get a ride. But also, if you're in Phoenix and soon in Austin and soon in Atlanta, you can also use the Uber app. So they're trying to figure out. How can each company try to figure out? How can we stay relevant and tap into more riders.

04:27
The biggest thing for me is when you're hailing a ride with the Waymo One app. Oftentimes for me in San Francisco it is a little bit more expensive to get a Waymo ride than it is to just call an Uber. I think that'll change as there are more vehicles and as the technology develops and as time goes on, but right now it's a little bit more expensive and then it sounds like such a minor step, but it's the added step of downloading a new app. So if you don't have the Waymo One app, you might be like, well, I already have an Uber app, let me just call an Uber. But if you're in Austin, or if you're in Phoenix or soon to be also in Atlanta, then you already have the Uber app on your phone. So if you're opening it up and you think, well, I could just get an Uber X, but let me scroll down and actually just get a Waymo instead, and it can be fun and I can try this out and see what everyone's talking about. So I think that idea of having it all within one app that people already use.

05:18
And then the other critical piece is Uber says that prices for a Waymo will be the same price as getting a standard human-driven vehicle like an UberX, for example.

05:28
So that is a very critical point, because you won't be paying more for this novelty. You may or may not get matched with it if you request it, but if you do, then you're paying the same price and you get this brand new experience you can go and tell all your friends about, and so I'm just really curious how this relationship will develop. There are very few key players at this point, and so, uh, so I'm just really curious how this relationship will develop. It's, there are very few key players at this point, and I think everyone has to kind of buddy up right now and get through the storm and see who makes it out alive. But, um, but I don't know. I would love to know your thoughts about if you had. If you had that option of you know it's already in the Uber app, wherever you are, and it costs the same price Do you think you'd let your curiosity get the best of you and just give it a go? Would you be more likely to?

06:10 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
So I will have a question for you at the end. I will say, absolutely, there's one actual regret that I had. Well, if there's one sort of silly regret involved with moving away from San Francisco, that was that I did not, before I left, take the time to head in and use the Waymo service, because I did get access via the app and I didn't get the chance to. And it's so funny, it's weird how these things kind of cross cultural groups and boundaries. I was watching a little clip from a show where there are these two drag queens who watch Netflix shows and talk about them and one of the drag queens, just as they were having this conversation about this Netflix show one of them brought up oh, I just got access to, I just got invited via the Waymo to get to do the self-driving and it's just like that's so funny that so many of us from these different you know walks of life are all find this thing kind of cool, and I think it's cool and so, in that way, yeah, I absolutely want to try it. I don, you know, I don't know where, how far away we are from this being regular and consistent thing, but I just point-blank, I think it's cool. Yeah, but I did have the question for you. Yeah, because I'm a I'm an anxious person, and an example would be that when Apple Pay first came out, I think it took me a very, very long time. I know it took me a very, very long time to use tap to pay in a store because I was worried I'd end up being that person who was holding up the line because something went wrong and then using it for a while and then one time something went wrong, and so then it took me longer to do it again because of it going wrong.

08:10
I see the blowback when it comes to these self-driving cars and the times when something goes wrong, and also the one that really stuck out to me. Stuck out to me was when there was a um, a person was in a self-driving car and there was a traffic uh officer who was trying to say you know, do this or don't do this, and the car obviously was not listening and the officer made eye contact with the person in the vehicle who's just riding, asking them like what in the world, why are you? And the person that's in the car is like I don't know what you know? And I was just thinking about how, if I was there, I would have melted into a puddle and just like disappeared. Do you have those anxiety? Am I, oh gosh, am I giving you those anxieties? Do you have those anxieties Like how do you what's? Is your curiosity and enthusiasm stronger, maybe, than that anxiety? And maybe how often are you, you know, making use of this service, and has it been mostly the case that it's been a fine thing that works?

09:19 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I think you've really got it right when it comes to my curiosity being overshadowing any anxieties I have. The first time I got on a Waymo um, it was uh for for a video, and so I was really excited to be able to to kind of, uh, demonstrate that experience in real time. Um and so, uh, I think I was running off adrenaline, and so I get in the car and then you see the wheel turning by itself and it's really weird and um and and then, truly, within I think 20 to 30 seconds, you're like, oh, this feels so normal, and I think the real test was we got to a four-way stop and the fact that the car obviously had to know what it was doing. It wouldn't have gotten to that point if it didn't know how to handle a four-way stop. But still, you're in it for the first time and it felt so seamless and so smooth. And the thing that helps with anxiety is that there are customer support buttons across, you know, in the front seat and in the back seat, so you can also pull over at any time, call someone.

10:21
But there are always, you know, these freak incidents right, and that you I don't know if you also saw the video where I think it was in LA, or somebody was stuck in a Waymo that was just going in circles and just trying to get to the airport. So, of course, there are things that happen. These are not, you know, foolproof technologies, but I think I am quite impressed with how it handles. I mean, I think San Francisco is such a good test of this because you have pedestrians who may or may not follow. You know when they're supposed to walk or when they're not supposed to walk, and Waymo's do a really impressive job of being aggressive drivers but also careful drivers, which is a very fine lined walk, um, and so they're very like. You see, they're very assertive on roads, but the second they see any semblance of motion, they're going to stop. So, yeah, I think that really helps me feel.

11:13
Better is that I've had pretty positive experiences. In terms of how often I've used this. I think it's probably no more than twice a month at most. I, you know, tend to rely on public transportation more than anything. And then when I am in the city, the thing is I live in Oakland but I work in San Francisco. I think if Waymo was able to cross the Bay Bridge and go from Oakland to San Francisco. I would take it all the time. I don't think I'd ever take an Uber, to be honest. I love the serenity of having space to myself. I love not being asked personal questions for no reason by curious drivers who probably mean well, but sometimes it's a little too much. But I think we have to kind of wait for Waymo to expand and come over to this side of the bay.

11:54 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. Anything else you want to say about that before we take a break?

11:59 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I think that's it. I think you know it'll. Just the only other thing is in Austin. It'll be interesting because Elon Musk also says that self driving Teslas will be coming to Austin in June. So we'll see if that happens and we'll see what that all looks like in the coming months.

12:12 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, I would say write that down on your calendar, so we can fact check along but at the same time take it with anyway, yeah let's take a quick break Before we come back with my first story of the week.

12:26
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15:37
All right, we are back from the break and that means it is time for my story of the week. I wanted to talk about Sonos because I know Sonos is a very popular company and device maker among listeners of the show and Sonos has had a bit of a rough year this past year given its introduction of a new Sonos app that people just flat out did not like. And on top of that, honestly, shame on the company. It did not have the accessibility tools in place that the former version of the app did, so many Sonos customers who relied on those accessibility features were unable entirely to use their Sonos devices. That up to that point they were able to use it was a mess, and that resulted in the shift of the leadership at the company. There's now a new interim CEO, tom Conrad, and Conrad is kind of looking at how to move things forward.

16:48
Well, one of those things that the company is reportedly working on, according to this piece from the Verge, is a new streaming box, and that is an interesting introduction from Sonos. That is an interesting introduction from Sonos, who, up to this point, has mostly focused on, obviously, audio and has created different audio devices, be it speakers or soundbars or headphones. A streaming box obviously puts you into a new category where you are now in charge of what is visually displaying on a television or some other device for displaying content. And this device, which is codenamed Pinewood, is not just your traditional streaming media box like an Apple TV or an Amazon Fire TV, in that Sonos is reportedly working on an HDMI switch. So what that means is you would plug in multiple HDMI devices, so a television, for example, on one end, but then on the other end, you could have a PlayStation, an Xbox on one end, but then on the other end, you could have a PlayStation, an Xbox and perhaps even another set-top box, and then your television, again on the other end, and be able to switch between those where Sonos serves as the in-between for all of them.

18:21
The reason why the company is doing this is because up to this point there have been loads of different inconsistencies that exist in firmware and software for modern smart televisions that have resulted in issues over time where somebody buys a Sonos soundbar, for example, and it doesn't work as one would expect with their television bar, for example, and it doesn't work as one would expect with their television. So you can imagine that you plug it in and you're watching a show and then the audio falls out of sync. That's frustrating. It could be that the audio is distorted and you're trying to go in and make changes and make sure that the codec is set right here and that this is set up. And you're using HDMI CEC but it needs to be HDMI CEC plus and you've got to plug it into the arc channel. I mean, there's a lot that's involved and a lot of troubleshooting that is done and a lot of support calls that cost money. And so Sonos says how can we address this problem? Well, let's be in charge of the IO, the input, output, let's be the middleman, essentially, that will make sure that we're handling all of that stuff. So then there's not a concern, and what that allows Sonos to do is something that people have wanted for a long time, which is to have, like a full featured streaming sound setup where you can have this box and you can have the Sonos speakers that you already have in different places in your house and the audio can be output to them and you can do something like surround sound, for example, so you can use two of your Sonos speakers to serve as your left and right channel and your up left and right, which is for Dolby Atmos, for example.

20:09
And I think the big surprise here is that it's reportedly going to cost between $200 and $400, which is it used to be. The Apple TV was the one that you'd go. I know it's expensive, but I promise you it's worth it. This is why it's easy. It's this, it's that, and hearing $200 to $400 for a set-top box that's, according to Chris Welch of the Verge, a flattened black square that's slightly thicker than a deck of trading cards that's an interesting thing. But if there's anything I know about a Sonos customer, it's that they don't mind spending money on Sonos devices. Those things are expensive by default, and so I think that it doesn't surprise me that people might still be into this. Now, the other thing that I'll say about it is that one thing that could potentially set this device apart although there are many a set-top box of yesteryear that have said that they were going to do this, although Sonos says no, no, no, but trust, trust us, we actually are going to make this.

21:24
Uh, the central feature of this set top box is being able to search for content across streaming services and be able to find something, regardless of where it is. I remain skeptical because we've seen so many different companies try to do that. Um, apple, who's got deep pockets and, uh, you know lots of of relationships with lots of different companies, has struggled to get some. For example, I can't do a search in the basic search of the Apple TV and have it look for Netflix content. And when it comes to prime video content, you can sort of search for it, but it doesn't show up in different parts of the app that other things do. And the ability to set a user is supposed to sync between the basic user that you have on the device itself and then, if you launch an app, it's supposed to go to that user automatically, and it never does. These integrations very rarely work.

22:29
So if Sonos was able to pull that off somehow, I would be shocked, but I could see it being something that Sonos could do, simply because there's no Sonos streaming service, so they're not a direct competitor, so they're really only adding value to those streaming platforms by making it a little bit more searchable. So I guess what I'd love to talk to you about first, uh, a bra is what's what's your streaming setup look like? And do you have, are you a soundbar girly, do you? Uh, yeah, what do you? What, what's, what's, what's it look like for?

23:07 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
you, I was thinking about this all as you were talking. I was like my setup is so primitive. I've got my Sony smart TV, Google, you know, Google powered, and that's, whatever's baked in, is what I use. I've got my apps on there and I just click into them. I think as far as I get is, you know, I think it does a decent job of if I search for a title. I think 85% of the time it will, it will find where that is streaming. Sometimes it misses and doesn't necessarily point me to the right streaming service, and then I gotta go tap in, which is, oh God forbid. I, you know, click two buttons but uh, but that's how it feels though.

23:43
Right, it should be easier. There's just so much, and I think what ends up being easier most of the time is literally just, you know, doing a Google search beforehand to see where something is streaming, cause sometimes you're not going to be able to, you know, find it with these smart TVs. But, um, my brother is really into soundbars and I have not tapped into that yet, um, and so I feel like I should. Um, I think, living in an apartment, you're like, how much sound can I get away with?

24:09 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yes, 100%.

24:10 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Like for him. It's like he doesn't have to worry about that, but I'm like I think I'd have to figure out how to best tap into that without getting noise complaints. But someday I hope I do become a soundbar girly. But I don't have a streaming box or anything, so so I guess I've saved a lot of money after hearing about this one, but, but. But I think it's fascinating that something like this is so needed, because everything's so fragmented. Right, you kind of just need something to bring it all together and make people's lives easier. Um, but um. But how about you? What's your setup look like?

24:45 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
So I want to like triple agree on the fact that, um, living in an apartment, as I did in California, meant needing to be very mindful of the sound, and so we had things in place to make sure that you know, like the I'll explain my setup in a second but there was a setting to basically reduce bass, and so that was one thing that we did, and then you never turned it up past a certain point, and that was regular. So, yeah, it's kind of hard to go all in on the setup Now that we're in Portland, we are in a home that is not attached to anyone else Go wild, yes. So I turned that reduced base thing off, which has been nice, and then also, if we want to get loud watching a movie, we can. So for me, we have an Apple TV, the latest model, and it is connected to. We were given a, because this is not a purchase I would have ever been able to afford to make myself.

25:55
So I want to make that clear before I sound super bougie. We were given a short throw projector, and so we've got the big screen that it came with on the wall and then the short throw projector goes to it. But I'm actually using two firstgeneration HomePods as the main sound system, because you are able to link those together and then make them the output with an Apple TV. That's very cool. Generations ago, a couple of operating systems ago, that gave it the ability to serve as the audio output for anything that's connected. And so even if we're watching or you know, like we've got a Wii or no, what's it called? What's the switch? We've got a switch.

26:50
Throwback, yeah exactly I just went back into the day and that's plugged in to the short throw projector, but because of the arc functionality, those home pods actually serve as the output for that as well, so it's like it's a soundbar essentially. Yeah, super cool and it works well. Surprisingly, because they're not connected to anything except over Wi-Fi, and so you'd think that it'd have some delays. But they've figured it out. They've done a great job. That's amazing, yeah, and I'm very impressed with it. I grew up with a couple of family members who were super into the whole setup like ran wires all over their house and I always thought it was cool but way too involved, and I have a significant other who's very sensitive to wires being run over the place as well.

27:47 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
That's not me, yeah.

27:48 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah. So it's kind of and I honestly wireless for me. I love I don't want to have a bunch of wires running everywhere and I also just like I don't have the energy to set it up in one place and then know that there may come a time where you got to set it up again in another place. It's just ugh. So the idea of being able to do this wirelessly I think is pretty cool, whether it comes from Sonos or whatever it happens to be. But yeah, that's my setup. I don't need to have it in my own home, but I can appreciate it when it is presented to me At the movie theater. Having some creepy sound from behind whenever you're watching something creepy is exciting and fun and I get it and I enjoy it. But for every day watching, especially some of the silly reality stuff that we watch, I don't really need somebody whispering behind my hand.

28:49 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I think you need top quality sound for that for sure, Can you?

28:52 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
imagine it's like you could hear them whispering over in the corner about how this next game is going to go.

28:57 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Exactly. Yeah, this brings me back to not to make this a self-plug, but I got to go to Dolby last year, which was really fun, and go to their HQ and was in a room where they had Dolby Atmos.

29:11 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Wait, Anthony, can you play the humble brag sound? I'm kidding.

29:14 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I'm kidding. Do you have that ready to?

29:16 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
go. Wouldn't that be funny. We should know. Sorry, go ahead.

29:19 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
No, no, that was so relevant, I was so needed, so so, but it was cool because you know they had the setup and it was like a living room and they had. You know you're listening. Obviously I requested listening to Taylor Swift and Dolby Atmos because I had to and Taylor Swift, and.

29:31
Dolby Atmos because I had to and the only thing, I thought two things. I thought one, this would be really cool to have in my house, and two, I'm not a millionaire so I probably never will, but it was a really cool experience to have that sporadic interaction with very cool technology that makes things sound very true to life, which is awesome.

29:53 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
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30:29
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31:10
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32:09 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Yes. Well, I think two words that I don't think most people thought would go together are artificial intelligence and the Beatles. So those were four words, but you know what I mean. Grammy, and it is the first AI-assisted track to do so. This won the Best Rock Performance, beat out Pearl Jam, st Vincent, black Keys.

32:47
So the critical thing here is yes, it is an AI-assisted track. It is not an AI-generated track. All the vocals are from the actual Beatles. It was essentially AI was essentially used to clean up the track, separate John Lennon's voice from the piano that he was playing while he was recording this back in the day. The Beatles then later came back and added their own touch to this and it is now won a Grammy. The reason this is interesting is because, for the last two years, there have been a lot of conversations about what role, if any, ai should play when it comes to music, movies, art in general, right, and so this feels like a critical stepping stone. It feels like okay, if an AI-assisted track is eligible for a Grammy and wins said Grammy, despite side note, a lot of people feeling like the song wasn't that good, but that's you know, it's each their own.

33:36 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
It's another topic but that's not our conversation.

33:40 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Exactly. So you know if, if that is now a possibility, how will these guidelines potentially change as time goes on? Because AI isn't going anywhere. It's only going to get better and people are only going to use it more and more. Right Creatives are going to find ways to tap into it, and so you have the conversations about fears about AI, you know, taking over people's jobs, destroying creativity. But then you also have the more nuanced conversations about people using AI for things like brainstorming or, again, like you know, cleaning up a track or adding some type of vocal twist to something. Or you know filmmakers using it in post-production to like de-age actors, for example, or remove something from a shop shouldn't have been there. And so you know this is all timely, because the US Copyright Office has also now said that AI tools that are used to assist in the creative process don't undermine the copyright of that work, and that's been a really big conversation.

34:38
I think a lot of authors in particular have been very concerned about this, and I still think it's a very real issue of AI kind of pulling from work without getting permission to do so. So I think, slowly but surely, we're getting more guidance on you know, what is okay and what is not. I think the road is very, very long ahead. I think we're still going to get a lot of back and forth about what creatives want, what industries executives want, what people in the tech industry want. There's just a lot of conflicting interests here and it's it's just gonna be uh, so, so rapidly evolving, but um, but I but I'm yeah, I'm just very curious about how um art will change, how art will be recognized, uh, with AI assistance, what lines we draw and how we erase and rewrite those lines, uh, as we go forward. But it's always, it's always fascinating to hear how different, you know, organizations and people feel about this.

35:36
I mean, I think, a lot of um you know we saw with the Hollywood uh strike, a lot of um artists expressing concern about AI and then now having situations where they're able to reach some sort of consensus, where you know, for example, sag-aftra, you know, signing a deal that allows actors to let advertisers use their voice in an ad, but they are in control of that right. They can say I want to make money off of this and I have control over what ads use this. I think that's really the idea is the control right and being able to still benefit off of your likeness and your work right, and so I think we're seeing more of that.

36:16
We're seeing companies like Universal Music Group partnering with AI companies like Sound Labs and Clay Vision and just finding ways to allow for AI to exist, because it's not going to go away, but making sure it's done in a way where artists benefit. And, let me just add, music executives also want to benefit off of this and they want to make sure they're getting in a way where artists benefit. And, let me just add, music executives also want to benefit off of this and they want to make sure they're getting a cut of all of this. But yeah, I think it's fascinating to see how this has evolved and will continue to evolve. But also would love to hear your thoughts about where you think this space is heading and how you feel about the increased use of AI that's undoubtedly going to happen increased use of AI.

36:54 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That's undoubtedly going to happen. Yeah, so this, of course, is like a multifaceted conversation, and I think my initial thought as it has always been, and I'm happy that I've remained consistent on this is that, regardless of how we feel about this thing, and as you've said yourself, it is here and it is going to continue to be here, and it is going to continue to evolve and do the things that it is expected to do in a way that improves upon how it's done them thus far. I hesitate to use the word it's going to get better only because I think that better is as a subjective term, and so for some people, it doing its job at higher quality than it does now is not better for them. But with all that in mind, it makes me think of another thing that which is in grocery stores. You see different products labeling their products as non-gmo and the the push regarding genetically modified organisms, and you know them being good or bad, and I was recently this is such a weird thing to say, almost, but I was recently talking to a, um, uh, a plant scientist, essentially, and someone who specifically works with plant genomes, who explained something to me that kind of blew my mind, which is that almost all of the foods that we regularly consume are not even there's no gmo available option for those things anyway. Um, gmos are very specifically focused on certain oils, for example, and certain grains that are fed to animals, and the rules and laws that are in place don't allow for most things to have GMOs in them in the first place. And so brands that are putting that non-GMO tag on there are kind of like brands who put gluten-free on there on a product that there's no way it would have gluten on it in the first place. Yeah, and the same thing for no antibiotics used ever.

39:42
The US government, as it currently stands, knock on wood, doesn't allow for antibiotics to be used in certain meats anyway. So them putting that on there is just sort of taking advantage of the fact. Yeah, you're saying this, but you couldn't have done it even if you wanted to. So it's not as if there's some meat out there that has antibiotics being used because you're not allowed to use them in this um and so, and growth hormones too is another one. So, uh, yeah, it turns out that it's certain, like canola oils that we would ever come into contact with and use.

40:21
That's where seeing non-gmo would actually matter. Um, but outside of that, like produce and those different things, that's not a thing that is happening in the first place. Um, and it's not. He said. Like the big thing is, even if we, you know, we put on the um cynical cap, he said it's not, uh, it's not financially viable to be genetically modifying a bunch of different things, so it's not within anyone's interest to do so in the first place. So, anyway, all of that's to say that there's a lot of misunderstanding about GMO and you see people hyping this and it's like even in a world where we didn't have the non-GMO label, none of those things that you're eating would have been GMO in the first place. So that kind of blows my mind a little bit.

41:16
And that aside, well, sort of that as a place to look, I wonder if we're going to see the same thing where we will have a no AI used label.

41:30
And does that mean that in future awards there will be AI assisted awards and non AI assisted awards?

41:39
What does that look like if there is enough of a blowback from the artists that are creating versus what, um, you know, the industry might want and the people who have a voice and a say in these things.

41:55
I'm I'm curious about that. I wonder, um, if that is going to be a factor or if it's, if you know, we get to a place where we realize this can be used as a tool. Just like, you know, me, me oog takes a stone and hits in it against another stone and keeps hitting it until it's sort of in the shape of a circle, and then I put it on my caveman fireplace above the fire and I look at it and I think it's great, not great. But I go over and I make a little tool and suddenly I've got a chisel and now I've got a perfect circle that I've got above my fireplace. And I have, you know, are we going to have one where, if you use a tool versus if you don't use a tool, let AI be a chisel, not the full, entire creator of the thing, and let the human run the system, and I think then it's okay. But who knows, who knows? Honestly.

42:59 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Absolutely. I mean, it makes me think about AI labels on social media, which I think will be beneficial with AI-generated content. But I was thinking about this. This is a very specific example, but it might kind of illustrate kind of the bigger picture. But I've been playing with the Galaxy S25 this week and there's a feature called generative edit which lets you erase things in the background that you don't necessarily like. So you know, filmmakers are using AI tools to erase unwanted objects from shots. You can also use this on your phone to erase unwanted things from your shots. But there's also this thing called Photoshop that has been doing that for a very long time right, yes, exactly.

43:37
AI makes it easier to do something that has been done for a very long time. And I think the word AI, I think that label, carries a stigma and carries a warranted fear of what this could mean for a lot of things, a lot of works of art, right, but I think sometimes you have to take a step back and realize, like that's a very broad, you know, category. Right, ai can do a lot of things. It can do little things that help you tweak, you know, tweak what you're looking at and make your job easier. It can also completely create something that takes away the human element, and so there's such a broad spectrum here. So I think keeping that in mind of AI can, actually it can both help and hurt artists is basically what I mean by that.

44:25
And so, um, labels, uh, might be the way to go with some things, like you know, posts on social media, um, but when I, when I use the generative edit tool on the galaxy phones, there is now it, it, there's a label at the bottom, a disclaimer of every photo that I, that I tweak with generative edit, if I erase anything from it, it'll say this is AI generated content, and in my head I'm like that's so annoying because, like, because why did like? I didn't generate any. I mean, you generated a background, but you didn't generate what I captured in that photo, right? So so that's just an example of how there's so much nuance and, I think, not having something blatantly just be, if any. If AI touches it at all, then it's been polluted.

45:07 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That's not really the way to go about it, I think because, let me tell you something that was in a small part ruined by that nonsense is my announce, our announcement of our engagement I remember this so I posted photos of our announcement of our engagement on social media, and I used Photoshop.

45:35
There was one photo where the photographer had taken it and there wasn't enough of like a vertical to be able to display it in the same way that all the rest of the photos were displayed, yes, and so I extended the canvas and used the tool to add some trees up above or, like you know, extend the trees. That's something that Photoshop's been able to do for a long time it's not just since the AI generation generated tools came along, but the people in the photo were very much real people and the situation was very much real, and no one's face was changed or anything like that. And I posted these photos and then afterwards saw that Instagram had tagged them as having been created with AI, and there were multiple people who reached out to me saying is this real? And I was like, no, I have to. It's very real, it's true, and it's very exciting to be excited Of all posts too. It's just cold. Yeah, of all the posts.

46:38
Yes, because I'm sure that I've posted something on Instagram before, up to that point that I had used Photoshop to do For sure, but Adobe had introduced that new watermarking like virtual or digital watermarking thing, and the thing that bothered me about it was I didn't have the ability to turn it off. Instagram had, with its tools at the time, had, and I don't know what the current state of things is but the policy was if its AI detected human beings in the photo and then detected via this digital watermark, that AI was used, then it did not give you the ability to turn off that label or even just make it so that it's hidden behind a moor or something like that.

47:25 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
It had to be displayed, so I was really annoyed by that, so you never were able to remove that label.

47:29 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
It's just no, I don't know what it looks like today, if it's still there or not, but it might be. But I very quickly put a little pinned comment that said I promise this isn't my canadian fiance. Uh, that doesn't go to the same school as me so yeah, yeah, that was. That's a perfect example.

47:48 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Exactly so not all AI is created equal, and yeah.

47:52 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
All right, we're going to take another quick break before we come back with our final story of the week and we will briefly talk about the current state of VR and AR according to the people making the apps and games. All right, we are back for a final story of the week here on Tech News Weekly. I am joined by Abrar Alhiti of CNET, and this final story of the week is about kind of the current state of the developer sentiment, I guess, regarding meta and meta VR. So there's this incredible piece that everybody should go read from Upload VR, called From Quest to Horizon how Meta's Shifting Priorities Are Affecting Developers, and in it UploadVR spoke with about two dozen VR studios to talk about shipping VR games on the Quest and it seems like there's a bit of a problem. So, first and foremost, meta reality labs uh, did report record revenue and the quest 3s the you know model of the quest that's a little bit more um, consumer focused, I guess appears to be selling well. But despite the fact that the devices are selling well and that metaa's VR AR group within the company is getting record revenue, the developers who are creating the experiences that make these devices sellable are struggling with declining sales and visibility in the store, the app store. So one of the things is that the MetaHorizon app was merged with App Lab in the main store and so kind of these different places where you could go to get your apps or look for apps all got merged together and it's made, some developers say, it more difficult to find games that you would otherwise be able to find. But it seems like the biggest issue here and I thought this was interesting is that meta, which originally kind of realized it needed to look out and say, please build it. If you build it, they will come are now looking inward and focusing a lot of attention on their own, being Horizon Worlds.

50:42
Horizon Worlds is, of course, the VR experience where you can go in and be part of this sort of social virtual space where people gather together and you can create your own personal space and you can build things and you can go to other people's spaces. I remember the first time I tried it out I think it was around Halloween and I went to somebody's space and it was like a scavenger hunt and it was pretty cool. I was running around and finding different pumpkins that were hidden all over the place and there were jump scares and the person had created that. You can create automations and so when someone's within view of this square, then do this. And there were little mini games and, honestly, horizon Worlds was a pretty cool concept.

51:28
Have I been back? No, but there's been a lot, a lot, a lot of focus on Horizon Worlds and, given that it seems to be at the expense of those traditional VR games, so with meta putting its focus there, then the teams that are in charge of finding and surfacing new games and experiences aren't as focused on that. The editorial team seems to be more focused on Horizon Worlds and it has resulted also in the introduction of many more free-to-play experiences, which we all despite the fact that it seems to work on our psychology we all know are garbage, and those, of course, compete with the fully paid apps. According to the report, developers have reported sales drops of 50 to 80 percent in 2024 compared to 2023, and that's despite the launch of the quest 3s, where things seem to be selling well, but not to the level that they were expecting, and with those lower quality apps kind of overtaking things and, more importantly, the free clones of popular paid apps being an issue, it's really hard for these developers to compete. One other thing is a kind of mixed reaction of an introduction to the app store, which is to, I should say, quest's App Store, which is the Quest Plus subscription. Certain developers can become part of Quest Plus and you pay a monthly subscription and then you get access to the different games and experiences that are part of Quest Plus. Well, some feel like that has helped because it means consistent revenue, but others say that those subscription services impact direct sales, as you might expect, which again makes it hard for those games to compete.

53:38
Last but not least, I'll say this, which is that developers are finding it more profitable to sell on other platforms like Steam and on PlayStation VR, where they're ending up making more money or selling more copies. And then one developer reported that the non-VR version of its game outsold the VR version of its game by 500%. So some are just finding that going into VR is not worth it. So there's a lot that's kind of at work here.

54:19
That seems to make it the case that meta itself is focused a lot on its own thing, even though developers were part of the reason why the quest found a footing in the first place, and also I think it's something that we heard as a common refrain when we talked about the Apple vision Pro headset was that yeah, it is, it's got great graphics and this, and that the but it doesn't have the robust app platform that you get with the Quest. And it's kind of shocking and unfortunate that Meta is not putting more respect toward its developers, because I think also about the iPhone and how the iPhone would not be the success that it is today if it weren't for the developers making thousands upon thousands upon thousands of apps that people enjoy and want to use. So now I'll ask you, abrar, what's your experience with VR? Have you used Horizon Worlds and what are your thoughts about what Meta is doing? Does it make sense for the company to just focus on its own thing here, or what do you think?

55:36 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I'm going to paint a picture for you for how inexperienced I am in VR and gaming. My first time using a VR headset was I think it was either 20, probably around 2014 or something when I was an undergrad and I was like writing an article for our school paper and it was Oculus back in the day and I got to, I got to try it out and it was very novel. At that point, right, it was um, it was a very, very cool experience. It was like with researchers that I got to like put it on Cause they were. It was some sort of. It was related to the engineering department. They had some sort of simulation in there for for students, which was very cool.

56:14
And then fast forward to when I joined Sina in 2017, we had one of our one of my colleagues had me try on a Batman VR game which I don't know the name of. I know nothing about it. I don't remember anything except for it. I know nothing about it. I don't remember anything except for it was very cool and it was in 2017. So it was very fun and since then I have not put on a VR headset and I think it's mostly because I'm not a gamer and I think, if I were a gamer, though, vr would be a very cool way to experience that, but there's been no reason for me otherwise to invest in my own headset, whether it's Quest or definitely not the Apple Vision Pro, I will tell you that but it's interesting to hear about this, and it's interesting to see how this is evolving.

57:05
I've never used Horizon Worlds, but it is fascinating. I think the most interesting point that you brought up was developers talking about standard versions of their game being more popular than VR versions. Do you have a preference for whether you play in VR or regular, or does it just kind of depend on what you're feeling?

57:25 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
So I'm not big on VR. Many of the gaming experiences make me physically ill and so that's always going to keep me out of VR. I've got a Quest 2, 3, one of those Look, I don't even know and I found some of the experiences, as I said, kind of novel and fun for a little bit of time, but nothing ever keeps me coming back. It's not compelling enough to put me through the experiences that I've had with them. So I'm not big on gaming also. So it really has to be a standout thing for me to want to play it, and if I want to play it, I'm typically going to want to play it in meat space, not in VR space.

58:14
Yeah, absolutely. That said, it's kind of odd because I think that Horizon Worlds is the kind of thing, that of thing, that it almost boggles my mind that I'm not more enamored of Horizon Worlds, given what it is and how it works. I like that sort of build and create and automate and share kind of experience. But maybe it's that it's in VR and that's actually what one of the internal teams said at like within Meta was reported to have said if we don't bring this to mobile, Horizon World is not going to take off as it should, it needs to not just be a VR experience, and I thought that was kind of interesting, so I don't know yeah.

59:01 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
I feel like that really illustrates Meta being kind of stuck in between what they dreamed of and what people actually want. I mean, I think that whole pivot to the metaverse and this idea that we'd all be donning headsets and interacting in a virtual space that didn't quite materialize maybe has some thinking. What do we actually need to develop? And people do like being in the real world a little bit and just having a screen held up in front of their face. Yeah, it's an interesting reflection of where they're at right now. Face yeah, it's. It's an interesting reflection of where they're at right now.

59:28 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Absolutely so I do want to um again encourage everyone to go check out the um piece from upload VR. It's it's a really like in-depth piece. There's YouTube videos included, um, lots of information cited, some of the direct quotations from the developers themselves and kind of the current state of things as far as that goes. Uh, I wonder if it was Batman Arkham Shadow that you played or one of those uh, batman Arkham games, but you're like, maybe, let's say sure, that's one that definitely reminded me of that. Uh, so, yeah, I don't know.

01:00:04
I um, I feel for these developers In every sense of the word, like in every sense of the situation. You have this expectation of how you're going to be treated, and so many times they're reminded of the fact that they aren't as important to the company as the company's bottom line, and that's so frustrating, and especially if, arguably, you are responsible for any level of success that the, that the product has. So we will, um, you know, continue to watch that as well and see what uh, vr and AR looks like going forward, and I think there's competition even amongst those two. Right, developing an experience for VR is vastly different in most cases from developing an AR experience, and there's a lot of attention being paid to AR right now, and I think that kind of further breaks things apart and messes with the focus and the attention as well, and dilution is what I was looking for. It dilutes everything, and that isn't great for these developers that are trying to uh, you know, skate to where the puck will be.

01:01:32
Yeah, yeah, all right. Uh, that is going to bring us to the end of this episode of tech news weekly. Our show publishes every thursday at twittv, tw. That is where you can go to subscribe to the show in various formats, and it's audio and video formats. And I would love to know, abrar Alhiti, if people want to follow you online and check out all the great work you're doing, where should they go to do so?

01:01:59 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Yes, you can find my work at cnetcom. I'm also on Instagram, abrar Alhiti. I'm also on X, abrar, or that's not my username. My username on X is Alhiti, underscore three. I decided to mix things up a little bit. Why keep it consistent? And I'm also. I always say this I'm on TikTok, but it's never anything related to my work. But if you want to have some fun, come join me over there. Abraar Alhiti.

01:02:20 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Beautiful. What's the three?

01:02:31 - Abrar Al-Heeti (Co-host)
Oh, because I'm the third sibling, so I picked that just to make it easier. And then apparently I had to have the underscore, because somebody took without one, but I've never found them. I don't know who that is, but I'd really, you know I have some. Yeah, if you're out there, yeah, let's talk. It was for real, but yeah.

01:02:40 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
If you'd like to follow me online, I am at Micah Sargent on many social media network, or you can head to chihuahuacoffee. That's C-H-I-H-U-A-H-U-Acoffee, where I've got links to the places I'm most active online. Be sure to check out my other shows, including Hands on Tech, hands on Mac, ios. Today I was like I know I'm forgetting one and I'll be back next week with another episode of Tech News Weekly.

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