Shoulder quest is unclear

[matkoniecz]

In many cases answer is clear.

But in cases of unpaved or raised shoulder it is unclear what should be answered.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Droga_wojew%C3%B3dzka_nr_187_(3).jpg#mw-jump-to-license

[matkoniecz]

OSM Wiki claims:

Unless otherwise tagged, a shoulder so tagged should be assumed paved, wide enough to be used as an emergency refuge for cars

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder

[peternewman]

In many cases answer is clear.

But in cases of unpaved or raised shoulder it is unclear what should be answered.

Isn't that just a sidewalk/pavement?

The first picture probably isn't what I'd class as pavement/sidewalk though.

[westnordost]

That's a sidewalk, yes

[westnordost]

And the above sand-shoulder: Yes of course it is a shoulder. What else should it be?

[matkoniecz]

And the above sand-shoulder: Yes of course it is a shoulder. What else should it be?

I was not entirely sure mostly because it is neither sufficient to keep broken car, nor to safely cycle/walk and not useful for emergency vehicles.

And what about flat grass along road? Because it is functionally equivalent to sand/ground shoulder.

Isn't that just a sidewalk/pavement?

Not really because you can't really walk on it. I have also seen even smaller ones (around 50 cm wide).

Also what about

Unless otherwise tagged, a shoulder so tagged should be assumed paved, wide enough to be used as an emergency refuge for cars

OSM Wiki claim? I think that likely OSM Wiki should be considered as wrong here, but it would be nice to handle it.

[westnordost]

And what about flat grass along road? Because it is functionally equivalent to sand/ground shoulder.

Hmm...

Also what about

Unless otherwise tagged, a shoulder so tagged should be assumed paved, wide enough to be used as an emergency refuge for cars

OSM Wiki claim? I think that likely OSM Wiki should be considered as wrong here, but it would be nice to handle it.

I don't see how that claim contradicts tagging shoulders that are not paved as shoulders though. "Should be assumed" sounds like an instruction for data consumers?

But in any case, the case with green shoulders is interesting. Not sure about that. I think we need to ask ourselves for what reason this information (shoulder) should be recorded first.

Not really because you can't really walk on it. I have also seen even smaller ones (around 50 cm wide).

If you can't even walk on it, then a car can certainly not halt on it. Even though it is 50cm wide, I'd still say that it is a (very slim) sidewalk.

[westnordost]

So the previous discussion boils down to:

1. does a shoulder that is not paved (e.g. compacted surface or even grass) count as a shoulder? (If not) how can it be tagged?
2. does a (paved) shoulder that is not at least as wide as a car (~1.5m) count as a shoulder? (If not) how else can it be tagged?

I guess there has to be some point where one must say that it has no shoulder anymore, otherwise this track would have a shoulder too: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e64UOsZWWfsS6seSTOuvMYv-3qalayWo/view

[matkoniecz]

The worst part of unpaved shoulder is the fluid progress from wide gravel shoulder, through slim or dirt one, through flat wide grass to flat narrow grass and finally to ditch next to road.

Even though it is 50cm wide, I'd still say that it is a (very slim) sidewalk

In many cases it is not accessible by pedestrians at all, and in general it is not intended to be used by pedestrians (0.5m wide paved strip next to road and 3m wide sidewalk separated by greenery)

how can it be tagged?

OSM Wiki page mentions shoulder:right:surface=concrete

[peternewman]

And the above sand-shoulder: Yes of course it is a shoulder. What else should it be?

I was not entirely sure mostly because it is neither sufficient to keep broken car, nor to safely cycle/walk and not useful for emergency vehicles.

Is the thing in the distance on the right by the blue sign an emergency refuge of some sort?

And what about flat grass along road? Because it is functionally equivalent to sand/ground shoulder.

What level of bump do you allow for grass/sand/sidewalk type constructions before they don't count.

Isn't that just a sidewalk/pavement?

Not really because you can't really walk on it. I have also seen even smaller ones (around 50 cm wide).

That looks fine to walk on. I'd estimate its 1m to 75cm wide. Certainly far nicer/easier than a lot of the raised grass verges in the UK. Although from what you're saying the proper sidewalk the other side of the greenery would be a lot nicer!

[matkoniecz]

Is the thing in the distance on the right by the blue sign an emergency refuge of some sort?

Bus stop (with short section of sidewalk along bus bay)

[matkoniecz]

For a more clear case of ?raised shoulder? and sidewalk see https://www.google.com/maps/place/Helcl%C3%B3w+2,+31-148+Krak%C3%B3w/@50.0734304,19.9379245,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x47165b03e69939d7:0x5d857ed97339ebc4?hl=pl-PL

[mnalis]

For a more clear case of ?raised shoulder? and sidewalk see

What do you mean @matkoniecz, do you mean that short raised part between road and a grass (wide as one zebra stripe) is possible shoulder? I would never imagine it so.

So the previous discussion boils down to:

1. does a shoulder that is not paved (e.g. compacted surface or even grass) count as a `shoulder`? (If not)  how can it be tagged?

2. does a (paved) shoulder that is not at least as wide as a car (~1.5m) count as a `shoulder`? (If not) how else can it be tagged?

• Well, in Croatian, there is a term "Zaustavna traka" which literally means "car lane for stopping", and is legally regulated and specially marked. So by definition it is wide enough for a car so it can be safely stopped, without interfering with the rest of the traffic. It is what I though this quest was about (what the Wikipedia calls "hard shoulder"). Around here it is found almost exclusively on highway=motorway (although I might imagine it on a highway=trunk or maybe even highway=primary), and is made of surface=asphalt as the rest of the road (although surface=concrete might also be theoretically possible). eg. this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)#/media/File:M4_Heading_west_at_J11_(start_of_the_N6_near_Kinnegad.jpg

• There is also something informally called "bankina", which is (usually much narrower than a car, although it might be as wide as a car sometimes, but very rarely), which is a surface=gravel, surface=compacted, or even surface=ground, mostly found on rural roads, and is not legally regulated, but sometimes is used for example by bicycles and pedestrians to stop when having a problem, or to avoid being hit by crazy car drivers which drive much higher than allowed speeds (which is unfortunately common occurrence here). This seems to sometimes be called "soft shoulder" according to wikipedia. Something like this:

  

  I'd probably mark that as sidewalk:right:surface=compacted instead, and definitively not as a shoulder.

I guess there has to be some point where one must say that it has no shoulder anymore, otherwise this track would have a shoulder too: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e64UOsZWWfsS6seSTOuvMYv-3qalayWo/view

Well yes, I do not think we should really be asking about "soft shoulders", as it is as noted very hard to draw a line in that case. Taginfo says there is only 0.07% values of shoulder=unpaved which would be "soft shoulder" -- and that it is "soft shoulder" only if it is wide enough for a car, according to Key:shoulder. That seems (to me) too low usage to offer it as a StreetComplete regular answer.

IMHO the shoulder quest should be made clearer that we mean only paved "hard shoulders" and asked only on eligible roads (see highway=* and/or surface=* above).

Alternatively, if the option for "soft shoulders" is added too (to mark shoulder=unpaved), it should be clearly explained that is must be wide enough for a car to safely park (and maybe under "Other answers" added "There is soft shoulder, but it not wide enough for a car to fit", which would suggest to mark it as a sidewalk instead, or trigger sidewalk quest automatically?)

[Dimitar5555]

Even though it is 50cm wide, I'd still say that it is a (very slim) sidewalk

In many cases it is not accessible by pedestrians at all, and in general it is not intended to be used by pedestrians (0.5m wide paved strip next to road and 3m wide sidewalk separated by greenery)

Technically it can be considered a sidewalk but it isn't intended for regular use. It's mostly for people who mow the grass (or have to do some road maintenance) to have somewhere to walk that's not muddy. It can also be used as a separator between roads and green areas (so that when it rains, muddy water doesn't go on the road). Another option would be if it's impractical to have dirt/grass on a very narrow strip of land.

[Dimitar5555]

• There is also something informally called "bankina", which is (usually much narrower than a car, although it might be as wide as a car sometimes, but very rarely), which is a surface=gravel, surface=compacted, or even surface=ground, mostly found on rural roads, and is not legally regulated, but sometimes is used for example by bicycles and pedestrians to stop when having a problem, or to avoid being hit by crazy car drivers which drive much higher than allowed speeds (which is unfortunately common occurrence here). This seems to sometimes be called "soft shoulder" according to wikipedia. Something like this:

This thing is also present in Bulgaria on two way roads that can fit one car only. Both cars' right wheels go off the road and they pass each other which creates thing thing. On more heavily used roads this "shoulder" can get wider but it's definitely not a shoulder. Pedestrians and cyclists tend to use it since they may want to have some distance from the passing cars (which is not really possible on these roads otherwise).

[westnordost]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)#/media/File:M4_Heading_west_at_J11_(start_of_the_N6_near_Kinnegad.jpg

is a good example. Clearly there is a shoulder on the left. But what is that on the right? The road does not immediately end after the rightmost lane and has some gravel further to the right.