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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Macaddct1984 (talk | contribs) at 23:32, 6 October 2024 (+talk reflist). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The political status of "Jonima family" during the event of Battle of Kosovo, 1389

Hi @Botushali. Do you have source for this statement?: At this point in time, the Jonima were an independent principality. extracted from your revert. Azor (talk). 17:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Azor. The Jonima family were a feudal family that shifted vassalage to different states depending on the political circumstances of the time, and at times functioned as independent feudal states. At the time of the Battle of Kosovo, Dhimitër Jonima is referred to as a count/prince/feudal lord but not as a vassal to any certain state by the sources we are currently using.[1][2][3] Dhimitër was lord of a territory between Mat and Lezhë.[4] The last time the Jonima family were mentioned as vassals of any state seems to be many decades prior, when Vladislav Jonima is mentioned in 1306 with the title of župan while in service of Stephen Uroš II Milutin of Serbia.[5] By 1319, however, Vladislav was acknowledged by the Pope as a ruler of a territory around Lezhë with the title of Count of Dioclea and of the seaside Albania.[6]
After the Battle of Kosovo, Dhimitër Jonima suffered another defeat at the hands of the Ottomans around 1393 before becoming their vassal at some point during this time[7] and would swap to accepting Venetian suzerainty as the vassal of other Albanian lords.[8][9][10][11] I suppose that none of that is important, however, as we are talking about the Jonima at the time of the Battle of Kosova. By all means, Jonima is referred to by sources as a feudal lord/prince/count of his own feudal state at that point in time, not in vassalage to the Serbs or anyone else. Although, even as vassals, the Jonima family served as a vassal state according to the sources used above. Thanks. Botushali (talk) 02:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your analysis. However, Vladislav Jonima passed away many decades before the event in question, so please stick to the topic.Dhimitër was lord of a territory between Mat and Lezhë (..) Jonima is referred to by sources as a feudal lord/prince/count of his own feudal state at that point in time; could you provide a quote for this claim? It appears to contradict the existence of the Albanian principalities Dukagjini and Thopia during this historical event. For reference, please see the attached picture that illustrates this time period, showing that the regions Mat and Lezhë were part of these two principalities, and not Jonima. Azor (talk). 12:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My whole point of mentioning Vladislav was to highlight the last time the Jonima were mentioned in any way as vassals of a Serbian ruler.
I can’t speak for that map as I didn’t make it. By all means, all the sources used above, many of which have quotes (just press on the reference), do not mention Jonima in vassalage to any state or ruler and simply refer to him as a feudal lord. I could always be wrong of course, but why would someone’s vassal join a battle independent of the liege that they’re vassals of?
The sources don’t seem to mention Jonima as a vassal of Dukagjini at the time of this battle, so as far as I’m aware, they’re an independent feudal state. Botushali (talk) 13:43, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And what name does scholars use when refering to this "independent feudal state" you claim Jonima ruled during this event? Azor (talk). 14:15, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you use your basic comprehension skills and take a look at the sources above, he’s variously referred to as count, prince, feudal lord etc.
I don’t know why you’re edit warring on the article when we haven’t resolved the TP discussion. Very counter-productive. Botushali (talk) 03:29, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've examined several maps from Wikipedia, focusing on the period between the Fall of the Serbian Empire and leading up to the Battle of Kosovo, along with the sources these maps are based on. His almost non-existent representation suggests that he was either 1) not associated with any prominent Balkan rulers at this time of event, or 2) not a ruler at all during this period. Both points make it entirely inappropriate to include him in the infobox alongside actual kingdoms and principalities, especially given that his name is mentioned only once in this entire article. Azor (talk). 08:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the thorough fact-checking. I asked this question some time ago.To my knowledge, we've never included clans, large families, or tribes in the infobox, especially not for major battles that took place in the Balkans. — Sadko (words are wind) 10:17, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can find plenty of cases where smaller parties and leaders have been included in the infobox as well. I actually think it's a lot more useful to the reader to get a full view of the picture. Alltan (talk) 12:00, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please present cases where the battle was of major significance, with a notable impact on both the region and the nation's future, keeping in mind the importance of context. You mentioned that the version you're proposing offers 'the full picture,' but the reality is quite the opposite. It focuses on a minor detail, misleading readers into believing that the Jonima people were a prominent principality with a substantial army, rather than a small, local feudal lord. This is clearly a violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:BALASP. — Sadko (words are wind) 12:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A simple search on wikipedia will get you what you are looking for, but here are some examples to make it easier: Battle of Novi Pazar, Battle of Ankara, Battle of Novšiće, Long Turkish War etc. Alltan (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Janima people? I think you need to research a little more on the Jonima family if you want to advocate for their removal. Alltan (talk) 14:04, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AzorzaI @Sadko An der Schlacht auf dem Amselfeld nahmen auch andere mächtige albanische Fürsten teil: Demeter Jonima, dessen Reich sich über die Zone von Lezhë und Rreshen erstreckte und den die osmanischen Chronisten Demeter, den Sohn von Jund, nannten und den sie als einen der wichtigsten Alliierten der Koalition [1] Jonima is described as a ruler, and one of the most important allies in the coalition. wikipedia is a place where we use reliable sources. Durraz0 (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no comparison with those battles; apples and oranges. On a more important note, that borderline obscure source cites an Ottoman chronicler as a primary reference, but this account does not align with other sources, secondary literature, or the broader bibliography.. — Sadko (words are wind) 14:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The battle of Ankara had 200,000+ participants and was between two strongest powers of the near-east. Comparing this relatively small battle to that, is indeed apples and oranges. There are several non primary sources about the Jonima participating in the battle. They are listed in the article. The source I brought up is mainstream. The authors are the specialists Wolfgang Petritsch, Karl Kaser and Robert Pichler [2]. If you believe it is not RS, free feel to visit the WP:RSN. Durraz0 (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no comparison between those battles? Care to explain why not? Alltan (talk) 15:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Battle of Ankara serves as a good example. The infobox doesn't include minor local feudal lords whose significance requires editor's extensive verification through extensive searches of key words on Google Books. The question isn't whether Jonima participated, but whether they are a relevant factor deserving inclusion in the infobox. So far, we have only one source supporting this claim, and it's based on a primary source, which is not that well-known. This contradicts other key sources and maps we have, which makes it insufficient evidence for inclusion. — Sadko (words are wind) 20:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The battle of Ankara, has tribes and minor nobles like Dhimitër Jonima in the infobox. The inclusion of the Jonima is supported by RS. Durraz0 (talk) 20:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stefan Lazarević, Đurađ Branković and Gjon Kastrioti are a different league compared to Jonima family - in every aspect. If I'm not mistaken, at some point the Jonima lords requested their overlords to take control of a certain village. History is what it is, and we should avoid pushing our personal viewpoints or insisting on portraying local feudal lords as if they were great lords. Pride should be set aside in matters like this, in the best interest of the encyclopedia.
Thank you for highlighting that example; it appears to have been a rather questionable edit made in 2021. For some reason, it was overlooked. It should also be removed, as these "precedents" are lowering the quality of this encyclopedia. — Sadko (words are wind) 21:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we should avoid pushing our personal viewpoints hence why we go of what WP:RS say. What is questionoble about the edit? It is cited in Dhimitër Jonima and Koja Zaharia were in the battle. In 1402 when many Albanian vassals of the Ottomns-Koja Zakarija, Demetrius Jonima, John Castriot, and probably Tanush Major Dukagjin-led their retainers personally to support Bayezid against Timur at Ankara. [12] Durraz0 (talk) 22:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Veremes, Thanos; Kophos, Euangelos (1998). Kosovo: avoiding another Balkan war. Athens: Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign policy. p. 418. ISBN 9789607061409. ... is a historical fact that they were on the Serbian side against the Ottoman Empire in that cataclysmic battle of 1389 ( under Albanian counts Balsha and Jonima)
  2. ^ Iseni, Bashkim (2008). La question nationale en Europe du sud-est: genèse, émergence et développement de l'identité nationale albanaise au Kosovo et en Macédoine. Bern: Peter Lang. p. 84. ISBN 978-3039113200. L'historiographie albanaise quant à elle met davantage l'accent sur la présence albanaise dans ce qui était une grande coalition de principautés chrétienne contre les Ottomans. Selon elle, sur les sept chefs de guerre de cette coalition, deux étaient albanais, Gjergj Balsha II et Dhimiter Jonima. Auraient aussi participé à cette bataille d'autres féodaux albanais, notamment Gjon Muzaka et Teodor Muzaka II. La participation albanaise aurait atteint un quart de la totalité des troupes de la coalition.
  3. ^ Petritsch, Wolfgang; Kaser, Karl; Pichler, Robert (1999). Kosovo - Kosova: Mythen, Daten, Fakten (2. Aufl ed.). Klagenfurt: Wieser. pp. 32–33. ISBN 9783851293043. ... geantwortet haben und sich mit einer Armee von 6.000 Mann nach Kosova aufgemacht haben soll. An der Schlacht auf dem Amselfeld nahmen auch andere mäch- tige albanische Fürsten teil : Demeter Jonima , dessen Reich sich über die..
  4. ^ Anamali, Skënder; Prifti (2002) (in Albanian). Historia e popullit shqiptar në katër vëllime. Botimet Toena. ISBN 99927-1-622-3 p. 267
  5. ^ Blagojević, Miloš (2001). Državna uprava u srpskim srednjovekovnim zemljama (in Serbian). Belgrade: Službeni list SRJ. p. 210. Retrieved 8 July 2012. Када је краљ Милутин издао повељу манастиру Богородице Ратачке, међу присутнима је било и црквених и световних достојанственика. Од световних лица помињу се: казнац Мирослав, челник Бранко и жупан Владислав (Јонима)
  6. ^ Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2001), Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), München: R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München, p. 87, ISBN 3-486-56569--9, Vladislav Jonima, als Zupan, später als „Graf von Dioclea und Küstenalbanien"
  7. ^ The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest Author John Van Antwerp Fine Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Michigan Press, 1994 ISBN 0-472-08260-4, ISBN 978-0-472-08260-5 p. 419
  8. ^ Elsie, Robert (2012), A biographical dictionary of Albanian history, London: I.B. Tauris, p. 493, ISBN 9781780764313, OCLC 801605743
  9. ^ The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest Author John Van Antwerp Fine Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Michigan Press, 1994 ISBN 0-472-08260-4, ISBN 978-0-472-08260-5 p. 510
  10. ^ Rojas Molina, Grabiela (2022). Decoding debate in the Venetian Senate: short stories of crisis and response on Albania (1392-1402). Leiden Boston: Brill. p. 193. ISBN 9789004520936.
  11. ^ Anamali, Skënder (2002). Historia e popullit Shqiptar: gjatë shek. XVI -vitet 20 të shek. XIX. Tiranë: Botimet Toena. p. 312. ISBN 9992716223.
  12. ^ The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest Author John Van Antwerp Fine Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Michigan Press, 1994 ISBN 0-472-08260-4, ISBN 978-0-472-08260-5 p. 422

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 October 2024

The word "less" should be replaced with the word "fewer" in the section which compares the casualties at the Battle of Kosovo with those at the Battle of Agincourt. The current article refers to "10,000 less (soldiers)". Since any number of soldiers is a discreet number, one cannot refer to "an amount of soldiers" or "less soldiers". It is always a "number" of soldiers and "fewer" soldiers. This is English Grammar. 178.175.91.85 (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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