Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

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New Zealand Wide Pro Wrestling

Hi, I need some opinion on an issue. New Zealand Wide Pro Wrestling has closed since the owner retired earlier this year. I made edits to the page but another user continues to revert all of my edits. I have searched and have found some evidence that the promotion is defunct. I would like some help and a consensus to be reached. Please can you do some more research and make a decision?

The promotion was operated by Martin Stirling and He Toa Sports Incorporated. The promotion has been closed since 2018 and has not held any events since then. Cagematch shows correctly that it closed in 2018 So does this site, The website nzwpw.com and its Facebook page was closed in 2018. No more content has been posted on the promotion's Twitter page since 2018 Also the contact page of the development version of the now closed NZWPW website You will see it was part of He Toa Sports which is now closed. Please visit nzwpw.com in the Web Archive to see this. It shows the parent is He Toa Sports which is now closed. As reported by Maori Television, the He Toa Sports training school was closed in 2015. He Toa Sports Incorporated was officially dissolved on 28 February 2020 Socks 01 (talk) 02:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

The above review is loaded with original research just for the record. Socks is drawing lines that aren't there without more sources, such as the assertion that He Toa Sports had anything to do with NZWPW after 2009 except allowing NZWPW to use their office. Inactive = in hiatus. Inactive <> defunct. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Are we even 100% confident this is a notable promotion? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Great American Bash leaks

I know Wikipedia doesn't censor spoilers but out of courtesy I'm going to give you all fair warnings for spoilers for Pt 2 of Great American Bash. Stop reading here if you want to avoid spoilers.

That out of the way, you might have seen that a leak has revealed that Keith Lee will win the NXT championship on night 2 of GAB, to be broadcast on 8th July. This change has been made on several articles already, such as Lee's article, the NXT title page, and the list of NXT champions page. I have reverted these based on the fact that leaks would not be considered reliable sources: firstly, the "leak" in question is far from confirmation: it is a (grainy) photo of Lee appearing to celebrate, but holds no official statement of Lee's victory. Secondly, unconfirmed leaks would conflict with WP:RUMOUR in that this is not verifiable. Similarly we shouldn't be making changes in anticipation for his victory, as per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Finally, as per other title pages, Lee's title reign is only official when it actually becomes official (i.e., when the show is broadcast and WWE lists it on their site).

I'm posting this here on the Wikiproject page out of anticipation that we'll need to keep a close eye on these articles over the coming days as I expect edit warring to take place. — Czello 15:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, we'd wait for the date of broadcast even if reliable sources were talking about it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

No, we actually don't. If a reliable source reports results before airing, they're fair game for inclusion. The problem here is we don't really have a reliable report of the results, not that it's before the air date. oknazevad (talk) 23:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

In the past we've updated the articles before air dates per WP:SPOILER. It's only a WP:RUMOUR if it isn't reliably sourced, if it is then we have to go with it. I never watched Lucha Underground but it's my understanding that their fans were upset that our articles on it included results that hadn't aired yet. As far as when a reign becomes official, all title lists have separate columns for days held and days recognized. The first column would always be for the day it was taped (when applicable).

In this case, if reliable sources haven't picked up the story then we should not run with it.LM2000 (talk) 05:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree with LM and Oknazevad. If a reliable source reports a title change before it's aired, we include it. Pro wrestling takes place in the real world, Lee won the title on July 1, not July 8. For example, The Revival won the first NXT Tag Team title on October 22. The title victory was aired on November 11, so WWE recognized November 11. However, they defended the titles 4 times before the title match was aired. [1] Maybe, the only difference it's the lack of fans in the venue, so reliable sources can't confirm the information 100%. For me, we will know in two days, so I will wait. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

This is just another reason why I hate our practice of going by "what happened in the real world". It just muddies things up further and causes these kind of issues (like the looming issue of WrestleMania 36's title changes). As to this particular issue, it's not exactly a rumor. An employee of the company (NXT wrestler Saurav Gurjar) took a picture of the result and shared said picture. Whether or not this employee would be considered reliable is a bit pointless as there is undeniable evidence. Although Gurjar deleted the post, it has also been reported that WWE is furious with Gurjar for posting that picture and spoiling the results. --JDC808 ♫ 08:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source has not confirmed the title change. They've commented on an apparent leak (and they even use the word "apparent"), but the leak itself is not considered reliable. Calling it "undeniable evidence" is simply wrong -- while it could well be genuine, it could also be taken out of context. In short, there is nothing confirmed about this (and it wouldn't be the first time WWE changed an event because of a leak). Simply put, this isn't official until we have actual confirmation. — Czello 09:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

So basically, your take is to wait until WWE confirms it. They obviously are not going to confirm it until it airs because they don't want to spoil their own show, especially when they're going head-to-head with AEW and want viewers to tune into their show and see the result "live". Also, how can a picture that legitimately shows Lee winning be taken out of context? The only answer would be that they filmed two endings, but that is in fact a rumor. Then there's the fact that WWE are mad over the fact that the result has been spoiled. Could they change it? Sure, but they've already taped the episode, and with this pandemic going on, they're not gonna make everyone come back just to re-tape one thing because the result got leaked. Reliable sources have reported on this, like the one I shared. --JDC808 ♫ 12:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I do believe we should wait (it's only 2 days so not exactly long). I think an image can easily be taken out of context -- it doesn't show him winning, it shows him celebrating with two belts. Perhaps there are different endings, perhaps they change it, perhaps there's a beat-down and Lee just raises one of the belts -- tbh, it doesn't really matter. Even if it did show him winning, it wouldn't matter. All that matters is that Keith Lee as NXT champion is not official, and it should not be added until there is confirmation that he is champion; otherwise we're simply assuming. Chances are he probably does win the title -- but it's unencyclopedic for us to include it as fact when we don't know that it is. And to reply to your final point -- as far as I can see, no reliable source HAS confirmed this. They're instead just talking about how there was an "apparent" leak, as I said above. — Czello 13:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Two words "Dusty Finish" - may I remind people who put stock in a picture that pictures exist of Chris Jericho defeating a certain man of more than two "H"? A picture without context doesn't tell the full story. MPJ-DK (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Excellent point. This is a good reason why it would be irresponsible of us to add it at this point. — Czello 13:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source would be someone who is an established expert publishing a match result. For example, Dave Meltzer attending a taping and reporting what happened. In a case like that, we could trust that the announced ending of the match was not reversed or changed by the end of the event. By Wikipedia standards, the results could be posted. They may turn out to be inaccurate to some extent (e.g. Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty won the tag team championship as The Rockers, but they are not credited as ever having held the belts because the WWF chose not to air the footage), but WP:RS is more important than a dislike or distrust of spoilers.

A report that "some guy" was at a taping and said that X beat Y doesn't meet the criteria for reliable sources. A picture of someone holding a belt or having an arm held up in victory doesn't meet the criteria. There are countless examples of people thinking they had won only to be informed otherwise, or a second referee coming to the ring to alert the first referee to cheating, etc. (again, there are pictures of The Rockers holding the tag team championship belts).

I wouldn't be surprised if promotions start holding decoy matches to prevent this sort of situation in the future, similar to how some television shows have recorded alternative episodes to thwart leaks, spoilers, and hackers. That would complicate the matter even more. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Add Evolve's championships to List of current champions in WWE page?

I already posted this question on the talk page, but yet to receive an answer, so I'll ask here. Since WWE officially bought Evolve, should we add Evolve's championships to the List of current champions in WWE page or wait until WWE use the Evolve brand in an official capacity?--Keith Okamoto (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

No -- WWE have purchased Evolve but they're still a separate company: they just have new owners. It's not like they're a separate brand, like NXT. — Czello 18:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Does Evolve still operating? the article says it's done. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware they're still operating, they just belong to WWE. — Czello 19:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

No, the story makes it clear that Evolve is no longer operating. The other promotions under the WWN Live banner which were not owned by Gabe, such as FIP and Shine, are supposed to eventually continue (though when I don't think even they know), but Evolve does not continue to operate. Indeed, from what was said at PW Insider, the sale apparently happened precisely because Gene was shutting down and WWE had a right of first refusal to buy the tape library and such as part of the working agreement that made Evolve the Double-A minors of WWE (beneath the Triple-A of NXT).

As for the question at hand, I say no, don't add them. WWE may have bought the remains of Evolve, but there's zero indication that they're going to continue it as a brand or whatever. They're definitely not current WWE championships. oknazevad (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, another question. Does WWE own the Dragon Gate USA videotape? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

According to the PW Insider report, that was included in the sale. I can imagine there being issues with WWE fully using it because of licensing concerns with Dragon Gate in Japan, but that would be a separate issue to their ownership of the tape library itself. oknazevad (talk) 22:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Couple of things. Were FCW's titles listed when FCW was still in operation? Also, regardless of everything else that was said, if WWE doesn't list them on their website as their own current championships, neither should we here. --JDC808 ♫ 09:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Level 5 vital articles

Earlier this year, we discussed swapping some of entries for Pro Wrestling vital articles. Since then, they have increased the number of slots we have to fill. That mans Giant Baba and Mildred Burke, who we discussed adding, are now there. Others like Savage, Cena, Bret Hart, Benoit and The Undertaker, who we discussed removing, are probably safe. They gave us even more slots, and those were filled by Chyna, Jerry Lawler and Stu Hart. These were not names we discussed last time this topic came up. Should their places go to others we discussed, like Mil Mascaras or Blue Demon?LM2000 (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Might I suggest Triple H or Batista? These lists will always likely be WWF centric. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I prefer Masacaras and Demon over Triple H and Batista. These are huge icons in Mexican Lucha Libre. What about Jushin Thunder Liger? He is very relevant as one of the best cruiserweights in history. I think we should avoid WWE-centrism. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

The reason Starship.paint started the first discussion was because the original list was WWE-centric and 14 out of 25 of the current list spent a significant portion of their career in WWE. I think Blue Demon and Mil Mascaras are fine for the list, but I'd put someone like Sting on there before Triple H or Batista.LM2000 (talk) 05:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Mantaur! InedibleHulk (talk) 06:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

And for the Mexicans, Luchasaurus! There's no denying he's huge, especially compared to the best cruiserweights in history. Also far bigger than the majority of actual dinosaurs known to science, just not the popular ones. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, Lee Vilenski, and InedibleHulk: - (1) I'd put Blue Demon in over Jerry Lawler, as Blue was more prominent in his country than Lawler, and Blue is definitely above Mascaras. (2) Chyna definitely shouldn't be on there, if you want to keep having a woman there, I'd propose Manami Toyota, named by the Washington Post [2] as perhaps the greatest female wrestler of all time. Dave Meltzer [3] concurred on Toyota, may have been the greatest woman wrestler of all-time ... one of the first generation of women stars respected by the male wrestling fans, on a par if not superior to any male pro wrestler of the 1990s as far as athleticism and garnering a reaction from fans. If not a woman, but keeping it WWE-centric, I'd have Rey Mysterio, arguably the greatest of all time to wear a mask according to PWTorch, arguably the most famous masked wrestler to ever perform in modern-day professional wrestling according to Sports Illustrated, and who is also the most influential wrestler on this generation of wrestlers (and it's not even close), according to Meltzer. [4] Not sure about Stu Hart. To accommodate all three of the above, I'd take out Roddy Piper, who has never even won a top WWF or WCW title. starship.paint (talk) 11:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Isn't this based on being important/notable, rather than wrestling talent though? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: - I would think that the current rise in women's wrestling in the U.S. had its roots in Japan's joshi scene (Japan achieved parity in gender earlier than the U.S., though joshi did fade in prominence in the 21st century) Did Mildred Burke or Fabulous Moolah achieve that? How much was Chyna an influence? starship.paint (talk) 12:07, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I suggest removing Chyna, Lawler, and Benoit. Possible replacements are Blue Demon, Mil Mascaras, Triple H, The Rock. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@GaryColemanFan: - Rock is listed on Level 5 as an actor. starship.paint (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Strange. I search for "Rock" and "Johnson" and still somehow missed him. I guess that simplifies my list. From my original comment, I would remove the three and add the other three. GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Aja Kong, Kyoko Inoue and Bull Nakano would, have and typically should eat Toyota for breakfast. But yeah, she keeps fighting back regardless, good on her! Mayumi Ozaki, Jaguar Yokota and Akira Hokuto are probably a notch higher on the old vitality pole, though. Mysterio transcends WWE, I think, seems important everywhere. I don't know, this game's weird. How are Stu Hart and The Undertaker similar again? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait...where the hell is Shawn Michaels? What kind of Internet Wrestling Community remembers Mildred Burke, Stu Hart and Frank Gotch before the man who made initials cool for guys like HHH, Y2J, nWo and JTG? Speaking of new world order, where are Nash, Hall and Bischoff, the men who made lady wrestler millionaires an achievable pipe dream (as opposed to some bullshit Moolah fed her slaves to keep them in the van indefinitely). Even "the boys" (Al Snow, Gangrel, Brock Lesnar) probably appreciate the ratings war and guaranteed money for nothing. But yeah, Rikidozan. He's cool, if you're into that "Kintaro Oki Meets Mitsuo Momota" kind of thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

In brief voting terms Replace Savage and Piper with Diesel and Michaels. And maybe Trade Stu for Abdullah to lessen WWE taint. Least urgently, any woman we actually remember for Mildred Burke. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I oppose all of these suggestions and all of these reasons. It's not personal. I just disagree. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:17, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

No hard feelings, I personally don't even grasp the concept of a vital article. Just figure if you don't know HBK, you won't know the Montreal Screwjob, the Curtain Call, the Barbershop Window, the Heartbreak Hotel, the Boyhood Dream, the Backlot Brawl, the Beach Blast, the Bash at the Beach, Sonny Beach, Sunny Days, Days of Thunder or Johnny Nitro! That's a lot of stuff, some of it directly affecting Hogan, Piper and Savage. Kay Noble, June Byers and Rockin' Robin, not so much. The nWo and Stampede were big in Japan though; I nominate Dynamite Kid, Masahiro Chono and The Great Muta. And also Negro Casas, El Felino and Heavy Metal (or whoever our Mexican students think was better, I don't really "get" lucha). I'm still with you on putting The Game over, Gary, 110%! Just not over Benoit. Bury Lawler. And I'm sold on Manami Toyota, Starship; she may not be the best of the '90s, but she was often in the best matches, which Chyna really wasn't ever. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

A very good point, and a good reminder of how little I should get emotionally invested in the debate. I don't really get the purpose of vital articles. Are they the ones I would point a non-wrestling fan to in order to get a sense of what professional wrestling is? Are they the ones I would suggest putting into a printed book if someone wanted a paper summary of Wikipedia? Neither of those thoughts really matter to me, so I'm not sure that I really care who ends up on the list. No matter what argument I consider (Triple H over Michaels because non-wrestling fans would have a better sense of who Triple H is, but keep Stu Hart because of his contributions as more of a "builder" despite the fact that non-wrestling fans wouldn't have a clue who he is, and many wrestling fans would only know him as Bret and Owen's dad), I can't even pretend that my logic is consistent. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Minor quibble, but Stu Hart is still quite known in and around his old territory to people who were merely aware that wrestling ran here (there were only a few channels in his day). He's even in the (online) news today. Seems Vince never got around to the "buying" part of the Stampede buyout. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:02, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait a second...why are we cutting anybody? The American TV host fans have 118 very important people to adore. I'm at least renouncing my pledge to replace The Macho King in 2020 with any Fourth Horseman, brother! InedibleHulk (talk) 05:29, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Count

• IN: Blue Demon (4) - LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, starship.paint, GaryColemanFan
• IN: Mil Mascaras (3) - LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, GaryColemanFan
• IN: Triple H (3) - Lee Vilenski, GaryColemanFan, InedibleHulk
• IN: Manami Toyota (3) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk, LM2000
• IN: Rey Mysterio (2) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk
• IN: Batista (1) - Lee Vilenski
• IN: Jushin Thunder Liger (1) - HHH Pedrigree

• OUT: Jerry Lawler (5) - starship.paint, GaryColemanFan, InedibleHulk, LM2000, HHH Pedrigree
• OUT: Chyna (4) - starship.paint, GaryColemanFan, LM2000, HHH Pedrigree
• OUT: Roddy Piper (2) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk
• OUT: Chris Benoit (1) - GaryColemanFan
• OUT: Mildred Burke (1) - InedibleHulk
• OUT: Stu Hart (1) - LM2000
• OUT: Verne Gagne (?)

InedibleHulk - add your own name to the list where needed. I can't tell when you were serious above. @HHH Pedrigree, LM2000, and Lee Vilenski: - we need to hear from you who to remove. I'm sure we won't be removing/adding anyone with just one vote. For every person you vote to add, please vote to add one person to remove. starship.paint (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

All twelve in bold were serious, but only hopped on existing bandwagons. If anyone else likes a dark horse of mine, feel free to put us on the board. I replaced Stu with Mrs. Burke. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I've re-added Stu because I wasn't sure if LM2000/Lee/HHH would want to remove him. starship.paint (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

And I added Verne, to even the sides. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I've added my three votes and anti-votes. Can we have more than three? I'd again suggest Sting as a North American wrestler that hasn't been represented yet. Replace Frank Gotch with George Hackenschmidt to keep the international flavor and nobody will notice.LM2000 (talk)

@LM2000: - we definitely can have more than three votes and anti-votes, just that they have to balance. We can change more than three wrestlers, I believe, just that we shouldn't change if only one person supports that change. Anything with three supports seems good to me? As long as the votes and anti-votes are balanced. They aren't balanced now, but we're still waiting for HHH and Lee's anti-votes. starship.paint (talk) 09:10, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, If I have to choose 3 anti votes, they will be Chyna, and Lawler. Since Jushin isn't too popular, Can I remove my Liger vote and leave it with two anti votes, two votes? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: - definitely, 2-2, 1-1, 4-4, 5-5, all fine. starship.paint (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Vital articles project procedures

Hey guys, I went over to read Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5#Introduction and there are some rules for changing articles. It turns out that you'll need to vote over there as well (at least four votes to make a change). From the above, it's clear that Lawler and Chyna have the most removal votes, so I nominated them already. Blue Demon has the most add votes, so I nominated him, the rest is currently a tie, but since we nominated to remove Chyna, I have nominated Toyota, who is also female. I haven't done any other nomination because the third addition/removal is not so clear, and in any case, it wouldn't be easy to nominate someone I personally did not support. Things for us to do:

1. Vote on the currently listed proposals at the Vital articles talk page
2. Decide on whether to have a third removal - Piper? Stu Hart? Benoit? Burke? Shift your votes around? Or no third removal?
3. After the third removal is decided, we have to coalesce behind either Triple H or Mil Mascaras. If we want both, we need a fourth removal.
4. Write nominations on the third/fourth removal/additions. starship.paint (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree, InedibleHulk, GaryColemanFan, and LM2000: starship.paint (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't treat them like a woman, don't treat them like a man. Just treat them if we know them as "vital" for who and what they am. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: - your two removal votes are yet to be in. starship.paint (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Clash of the Champions match times

I just noticed that an IP added fake match times back in December 2012. I fixed the times for one event, and I can work away at the others. If anyone wants to help, please feel free. There's no actual source given for match times, but I went with Pro Wrestling History (prowrestlinghistory.com), as it's definitely better than the fake times (one match I looked at was listed as 12 minutes when it was actually less than 3). GaryColemanFan (talk) 21:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Quick update: I finished this project today, so it's all consistent with the Pro Wrestling History times. GaryColemanFan (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The Reality Era(Dispute)

Hello I am in the middle of a dispute with Dilbaggg (talk · contribs) who refuses to allow me to edit sections on "The Reality Era" article as well as the History of WWE for the Reality Era as well. I have three reputable sources, TWO of which are from WWE themselves, one that states point blank that the timeframe for this era is 2014-2016. However this user is using their own personal views and opinions by going with a 2013-2016 timeframe which is incorrect. So incorrect that again, WWE themselves disagree as you will see below. Dilbaggg's source pointing to the Reality Era beginning in 2013 is a fanmade poster photo from DeviantArt that says "2013-2016". I find this absurd. If someone can please assist it would be much appreciated. Thank you.

• https://www.wwe.com/polls/what-is-your-favorite-wwe-era
• https://www.thesportster.com/wrestling/important-matches-wwe-reality-era/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hemBUIEc1uo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk • contribs)

68.196.72.173 (talk) 23:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Most of your sources are either primary (WWE) which btw is just a poll not an article and the sportster isn't even a reliable source. The youtube video Triple H never said 2014 was the start of the reality era, he said it was ongoing, much like the pg era started in 2008 but was never acknowledged by WWE themselves until 2010 (until then only fans used the term to mock the WWE's transition "back to TV PG" which it also was before 1997, tv ratings do not determine eras), they referred to the period as the Universe Era. You can't use polls as a source and if you are going to use quotes from wrestlers, I have quotes from CM Punk coining the term reality era from 2011. There are WP:RS which cites 2011 as the beginning of The Reality Era:

• https://grantland.com/features/wwe-night-champions-preview/
• https://www.espn.com/story/_/id/7131456/cm-punk-worked-tweet-era
• http://thechairshot.com/2019/06/the-doc-says-the-wwe-decade-in-review-2011-the-rise-of-cm-punk/
• https://411mania.com/wrestling/change-the-eyes-examining-the-reality-era/

Cheers. Dilbaggg (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Triple H's exact quotes from the video:

"Maybe I start the Reality Era" "Maybe as of right now this moment this is the beginning of the Reality Era"

And it was. And eventually years later WWE apparently labeled 2014 in general as the start of the era as seen in my first source.

And continuing on, the Sportster isn't a reliable source but grantland, thechairshot.com(a random guy saying something in a podcast?) and 411mania are? Not to mention they all supersede WWE themselves? And with regards to the the 411Mania source, they too imply that the beginning was 2014 with Triple H's statement from 3/24/14, not 2013. And you're right TV ratings don't determine era's and WWE wasn't the 'PG Era' prior to 1997 but that is completely irrelevant here besides the point as WWE has called it the PG Era multiple times - Once in that poll, and two others from WWE superstars themselves that I know of- Triple H in his "Thy Kingdom Come" documentary and Natalya on her "Table for 3" episode. I am perfectly fine with keeping your 2013 background on the Reality Era but as far as the REAL timeframe goes the official timeframe is 2014-2016. It's like other era's too. In late 1992 when WWE slowly began heading in a different direction with new stars such as Bret, Shawn and Razor but the New Generation didn't go into full swing until mid 93 or so. 68.196.72.173 (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dilbaggg: that poll might be a primary source and it might just be a poll, but here's the thing: it's WWE's product. It being a primary source is exactly why it trumps the secondary sources; those secondary sources don't define the eras of WWE, WWE defines what constitutes their eras, and the poll shows what those are and their time frames. The secondary sources just report and discuss further and are used as a backing to validate the primary. In 10-15 years, if WWE decides to do some rewriting/retconning on what they define as these eras, then we have secondary sources to give us a broader view and what was being reported at the time. --JDC808 ♫ 04:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

WWE also cites the PG Era as the Universe Era (including their official games like WWE2K14), we do not call that period Universe Era for that, in until 2010 the term pg era was just used as a mock by the crowd. But it is still accepted to begin sine 2008. Likewise the term "Reality Era" has been coined since 2011, and WWE just accepted the term in 2014. Is their any other WWE source other than that simple poll that uses the term PG Era and states that The Reality Era begin in 2014? If so I will drop the matter and accept the change without any more objection, although I do agree what majority editors say regarding this is what counts. Dilbaggg (talk) 05:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I will list the Triple H 3/24/14 youtube video quotes again for you:

"Maybe I start the Reality Era"... "Maybe as of right now this moment this is the beginning of the Reality Era"

There are no other sources but there doesn't need to be any other sources as again, for the last time now, and as mentioned above, anything from WWE themselves trumps these other secondary sources. Not to mention there are several secondary sources we have seen that show 2014-2016 as well. Your own personal opinion of this is getting in the way, and believe me I can understand that sometimes. As an example I 100% feel that the ECW Championship should not count as a world championship at all but because WWE notes it as such in areas of their website, Wikipedia counts it as one and I had to accept it. With this topic though, even without the WWE source, I know as a huge WWE fan myself that the real Reality Era was in fact 2014-2016, even if there were some signs and shades of it beforehand. WWE was still very much PG Era-ish through 2013.

Side notes: Bringing up the Universe Era/PG Era discussion is irrelevant here, but regardless, WWE does not cite it as the Universe Era, officially. Visual Concepts, the makers of the WWE2K14 game, does. I'm sure they got some sort of permission from WWE to use that name for the game as it may sound better, but ultimately, PG Era has been accepted by WWE and an overwhelming majority of it's fans.

68.196.72.173 (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

68.196.72.173 All right I am accepting your point and will revert it to the 2014-2016 timeline, confirm to my message, do you want it to be reverted that way? Dilbaggg (talk) 05:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, but I will change it on the actual Reality Era article. If you can please note this on the 'History of WWE' talk section so I can be permitted to clean that up as well that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk) 12:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

68.196.72.173 All right its done, I have reverted the article to June 2020 status, the History of WWE article now has the Reality Era timeline set from 2014-2016. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you68.196.72.173 (talk) 14:16, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I have to ask: why do we care? Seriously, a two year or so period of relative insignificance in the history of the company doesn't need to be significantly defined by their attempt (and failure) to brand it with a buzzword name (after that buzzword had already lost any broader pop culture significance, I might add). In short, we don't need to parrot WWE marketing speak every article. It fails NPOV, frankly, and gives undue weight to the company's self-promotion. oknazevad (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's also not particularly notable outside of WWE's own branding. I don't think either of the articles adequately explain the significance of this period. Instead it just reads as a drawn-out bit of history. What makes this notable, in a way that isn't WP:OR? — Czello 14:32, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree. During the discussion, I felt this maybe is too into the WP:PROMOTION. I have read about the Reality Era, but not so much about the New Era, just WWE.com itself and thesportster. Also, I think the eras are defined by third party sources, not by the promotion itself. I don't see not read any difference between Reality Era and New Era. Kofi Kingston used the real life feud with Orton during his feud as WWE Champion. Daniel Bryan used real life behavior as par of the eco-warrior gimmick --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I have edited the article a little bit. I think the article focus too much on WWE in-universe and no notable stuff. I don't see this deep coverage in previous eras, like Attitude or New Generation. We are talking about WWE during a time period, but no mention about Saudi Arabia, but Bobby Lashley return instead? No mention about All Elite Wrestling, but The Hardys returned? No mention of NXT grown and NXT UK, but The Shield reuinited in 2017? Too much focus on what happens in WWE Programming, but no in WWE as a COMPANY. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I've never actually heard this term before this conversation - probably not notable as stand alone. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

AfD

As it's tangentially related to the above debate, you should all know that I've nominated the standalone article for deletion as it's largely a duplication of what's on the History of WWE article. You can participate in the AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Reality Era. — Czello 06:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I support the deletion, 2014-2016 is too short time to cover for an article. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

But there is a difference and WWE does define these eras as seen below. WWE also made a big push for the "New Era" following WM32.

• https://www.wwe.com/polls/what-is-your-favorite-wwe-era — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk) 15:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
• What's the difference? Again, we're just repeating what WWE says. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• • Yes, what HHH Pedrigree says. WWE can call it what they like, but that doesn't make it notable. — Czello 15:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Ribbing

Hi everybody. So, I was looking at the Glossary of professional wrestling terms talk page a couple days ago, and I saw someone suggesting an article be written on ribbing in wrestling. The comment was years old, but I thought it seemed like a good idea, so I wrote one. It's in my Sandbox if you want to read it. It turns out that there was once an article on ribbing, but User:Nikki311 changed it to a redirect to the Glossary I already linked. That was years ago, too. This is the first article I've written, so I would hope it passes AfD, but I'd like it to at least get a chance, because I think 9 words in a glossary is way less than what this could be. I left a comment about this on Nikki311's Talk Page, but haven't heard back, and it doesn't seem that she's the easiest person to get a reply from. Does anyone have any advice on what I should do? "Yes...It's Raining" 21:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

We have a practical joke article already, which is basically pranking and ribbing combined, just in modern carny talk. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

We do have practical joke, but ribs are usually specific to long trips on the road. I can't imagine there wouldn't be enough to satisfy GNG. The previous loose consensus was that the article back in 2007 was too much cruft, but if a decent article was written at Rib (professional wrestling) I wouldn't want it to be redirected. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I think that has to do with wrestlling holding onto '30s grifter dope for way longer than the rest of the world, and wrestlers simply happening to do everything on (at least near) the road. Back in the day, ribs could strike anywhere goofs, capers or hijinks could. But yeah, no objections to anything, just food for thought. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi again, everyone, and thanks for your replies. So, I'm not saying what I've written is perfect, because I'm sure it's not, but I think it's certainly better than some list article. I think you guys can see what's in my Sandbox just like I can, right? I assumed everyone would go to my userpage/Sandbox and could see what I put up, but since someone mentioned linking to it, here you go! Again, I'm sure it could be improved upon greatly - and feel free to give me any honest opinions, my feelings will not be hurt! - but I think it sounds like what I've written is a pretty big step up from what was there ten years ago."Yes...It's Raining" 15:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Edited to add: After reading portions of Wikipedia:Bold 3 or 4 times, I decided that the right approach is to put it up, as I'm positive it's not a particularly offensive article, etc., and is well-sourced, etc. and, again, not a list, and let someone revert it if they think it needs to be. So that's what I'm about to do. No disrespect is meant to any of your opinions, and feel free to do what you think is appropriate, but I'm going to do what I understand to be what's recommended in these circumstances and go and replace the redirect with what I wrote. "Yes...It's Raining" 15:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It looks like a good start. I think the biggest concern in its current form is that the sources may not be reliable sources per WP:RS. I would recommend using the search forms at Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Sources (substituting in your search terms in the quotation marks, and using a variety of terms: rib, ribbing, prank, practical joke, jokester, etc., possibly in conjunction with specific wrestlers who were known to do these sorts of things). There should be reliable sources for these, and I think it would be possible to write a paragraph about how this sometimes includes defecation (e.g. in Jerry Lawler's crown, Alundra Blayze's bag, etc.). I don't know if popculture.com would be a reliable source, but there is an article at https://popculture.com/wwe/news/scott-hall-most-disgusting-prank-wwe-history/ that discusses this prank: In wrestling, pooping in a peer's bag is the ultimate "gotcha" and wrestlers have used this trick for decades as a backwards way to police their locker room...."Fuji was most known for the s--t rib and he passed it on to Curt who passed it on to X-Pac, and if they don't like you, they just s--t in your bag. And sometimes it would be multiple s--ts. It would be different textures and it was like I never really participate in any of that. I was aware it was happening. I never s--t in anybody's bag," explained [Scott] Hall...."I never wanted to see it because some guys would walk around and go, 'wow, look' to me and I'd go, 'no, I believe you'. Then, they'd s--t in your bag if they didn't like you and depending on how you sold it, they even did it to Madusa, Alundra Blayze. She came in with a little bit of an attitude and she got s--t ribbed. Sunny and Chris Candido, Skip and Sunny, ooh, one time on a European tour, they got s--t ribbed," Hall remembered...."And Curt would do the upper decker. He would go in your room, if he could get in your house, he'd like it even better," illustrated Hall. He would go in your hotel room and lift the back of the toilet, like the part where the flushing stuff goes, he'd s--t in there and put the lid back on and you'd be smelling it for days!" If you (or anyone) could find a reliable source for some of this information, it would help build up the article. There are also the personal attacks that are often categorized as ribs--Vince McMahon naming Mike Jones "Virgil" as a prank/attack on Dusty Rhodes, WCW naming Mike Jones "Vincent" to get back at McMahon, wrestlers in TNA forming the Voodoo Kin Mafia as a prank/attack on Vincent K. McMahon. That could make for a paragraph, and all of those name-related "ribs" could be sourced to the WrestleCrap books/site. GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Awesome, I definitely agree with you that it can be expanded and improved and appreciate your suggestions on how to do so. I have to admit I'm pretty reassured that you see it as a good start, since it took some work. I'll try to build it up and see what I can find using the links you recommended at some point later on if noone else beats me to it. Thanks!"Yes...It's Raining" 17:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello. I took a look at your article, and it is better than the crufty list that was there before. I agree with Gary that some of the sources don't seem reliable, particularly the independently published book about Owen Hart. I vaguely remember Foley discussing ribs in some of his books, so you might want to look through those if you have them available. Also, the article focuses heavily on WWE, so if you could add some examples from other companies (especially from other countries) that would also be an improvement. Nikki♥311 08:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)