Talk:Ginger Baker

Fair use rationale for Image:Cream2005.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Creamband.jpg

Image:Creamband.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Cream1993.jpg

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I'm surprised to read an article about Ginger Baker that doesn't mention his teacher and mentor the great Phil Seamen. Thermosoverfil (talk) 19:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Did Ginger get his money back?

The fraud case was filed in 2008. Does anyone know if the case went to trial? Did Ginger prevail? (71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC))

Navbox for Ginger Baker

Can a navbox be created for Ginger Baker based on Ginger Baker's three albums and Ginger Baker's Air Force's two albums? --Jax 0677 (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ginger?

how about a word or two on why he uses a female nickname? gotta be something interesting there! 209.172.25.81 (talk) 01:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Ya think maybe cause 'ginger' is used as a nickname for people with red hair? That be my guess. 184.77.158.71 (talk) 23:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Deleting (possibly unintentional) vandalism

Somebody either knowingly or cluelessly added "facts" about Ginger Baker assaulting two burglars (taken from a satirical website). 160.111.254.17 (talk) 14:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Selection of photo used above the bio summary

Who selects the photo that sits above the summary information (top right of page) and why did they chose such a poor image when there are thousands of images available (with and without drum kit) that portray Ginger Baker's character /persona far better than the one selected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.223.170 (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

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A pioneer in jazz fusion drumming

Ginger Baker is not a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming. You need many more sources, and much more consensus, to make a large claim like that. He is mostly known as a rock drummer. I've never seen him called a pioneer in jazz fusion. Please remove the POV cheerleading and let's keep the articles impartial and down to earth without any grandiose claims.
Vmavanti (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Reading his autobiography it's very obvious that his early influences were jazz-based, especially Big band, such as Jack Parnell and Ted Heath. In his obituary in The Guardian today Adam Sweeting says this : "He brought Winwood and Grech into a new jazz-rock fusion project, Ginger Baker’s Air Force" and "Baker.. continued to collaborate with Laswell, with Middle Passage (1990), a mix of Afrobeat, rock and jazz-fusion." So some of his later work is certainly focused on jazz fusion. But to say he was a pioneer is indeed rather very strong claim. Billboard says, for example, "In 1972, Baker released two solo albums, Ginger Baker at His Best and Stratavarious, in which he dabbled in jazz fusion and Afrobeat." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and always got the impression he was peeved at ending up in a rock band. He didn't, for eg, hold any other rock drummers in high regard, compared to contemporary jazz players. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Martinevans offers the fact that that "it's very obvious" (to whom?) "that his influences were jazz-based". Let's look carefully at these words, because that's what we do here. If you've ever heard a song by Cream, the words "big band" don't automatically spring to mind. "Blues" might, because rock stole a lot from blues, especially in the 1960s when Cream formed. Eric Clapton built a lucrative career out of stealing the licks of black American blues guitarists. It's not obvious when hearing a rock song that a drummer was influenced by big band music. Stewart Copeland, whose father played trumpet in big bands, holds his sticks like a jazz drummer. Can you tell that by listening to his music or the Police's? No.

Let's break it down more: "influences" and "jazz-based". One can be influenced by something without imitating it, without adopting all of its characteristics. If you drizzle pepper on your salad, the lettuce doesn't disappear and turn into a pile of pepper. The salad doesn't become pepper. It's flavored by it. The subject of influence, in all kinds of fields, is subjective, speculative, and vague. One can't built concrete arguments on that. They will sink. To say something is "jazz-based" is different from calling it jazz. Your salad is pepper based, but isn't pepper. To paraphrase Mark Twain, there is a difference between "lightning" and "lightning bug". Judging by the words provided here, Adam Sweeting at The Guardian doesn't make much of a case when he calls one on Ginger Baker's bands ("projects"...ugh) "jazz-rock fusion". Most critics distinguish between jazz, jazz rock, and jazz fusion. They are not identical. I'm not sure the middle term means anything at all. Calling something "jazz rock fusion" makes no sense, just as saying Baker combined rock and jazz fusion makes no sense. Jazz fusion is a combination of jazz and rock. It already has rock in it. What do you get when you add more rock to jazz fusion? I don't know. Rock?

The fact that he worked with Bill Laswell isn't much of a point either. Laswell was never a mainstream jazz musician. Even if here were, you get the same problem of failing to make distinctions. Many non-jazz musicians perform with jazz musicians and vice versa. If I'm under six feet tall, and I join I basketball team where everyone is over six feet tall, does that automatically make me six feet tall? It helps to have some knowledge of these matters. Compare the Guardian's idiotic comments to a video at YouTube by Rick Beato called "Why Do People Hate Jazz?" The brief comments he makes about particular musicians shows his familiarity with the subject.

I would like see Wikipedia articles stop becoming love letters. Why not save your romance for actual humans? Take the romance out of articles. Take out the love letters, the cheerleading, the fanboy stuff. "Fan" is short for "fanatic". There ought to be no fanaticism in something as boring and factual as an encyclopedia. One has to be notable to appear in Wikipedia to begin with. There's no need to add frosting. There's no reason to promote and puff up (lie?) in articles. Ginger Baker wasn't a pioneer in anything, as far as I know. So what?
–Vmavanti (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

When Martinevans was offering "the fact" that "it's very obvious", he was probably thinking about Baker's later career and his collaboration with African musicians. Not when he was "a very fat and pompous amphibian in the Bufonidae family". Maybe he was just reading his Autobiography and saw the kind of musicians Baker himself claimed he was keen on in his youth, when he was still drumming on the tops of desks at Shooter's Hill Grammar. But we could ask him, I guess. Then again, so what. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Kit

I do hope that the "esoteric" Instruments and sound section, detailing his drum kits and equipment, recently removed as uncited, might be restored at some stage, perhaps after he's appeared in ITN/RD on the Main Page. Here's a possible online source, which looks like it might have been the source originally used, e.g. "From 1966 to 1968, Ginger played a Ludwig Silver Sparkle:". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

That's the plan. I dont think its worth risking a RD over a listy section, which given sources such as you've found, could be a very interesting text para or two, if we had a white night who really knew their stuff. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Quite agree. I'm only a part-time and very casual drum-head, I'm afraid. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:43, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm not a huge fan of gearhead-oriented sections listing instruments and accessories without context – because the number of interested readers is very small – but if we can tell the regular layman some interesting facts about Baker's various kit then yes, let's do it. What not to do: lists of cymbal types and tom sizes (WP:INDISCRIMINATE). What to do: tell the reader about Baker's reasoning and his observations about his drum equipment choices. Tell about a problem he had with his drums. Tell about drum manufacturers wooing him. Tell about other drummers that copied his gear. Et cetera. Binksternet (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)