amadi: A bouquet of dark purple roses (Other People are Quite Dreadful)
[personal profile] amadi
So Rob Thomas, the lead singer of Matchbox 20/the Smooth guy/solo artist, is on Twitter. He's posted about buying patio furniture and going to the studio and listening to mixes and his music of the day and where he's eating dinner with his wife and how the grocery store in the suburb where he lives isn't open late enough at night. And one of the things he does is a photo scavenger hunt, where he lists several things that people should take pictures of, then post to Twitter so that he can see them and give applause. It's just silly, but Twitter is for fun, for celebrities, so why not?

Except Monday night, he posted this:
tuesdays photo scavenger hunt: 1) something 'goth' 2) a hot tranny mess 3) someone picking their nose. (link)

He then used it again a few hours later to link to his choice of "winning" photo in that category, once more to correct the link and a fourth time to announce that he'd corrected the link. Which prompted me to say, in reply to him (the @ behind his name indicates I'm talking to him)
@ThisIsRobThomas Also FYI, the word "tranny" is very uncool. It's a pejorative. if it's self-descriptive it's sorta okay, but otherwise no. (link)

His reponse to that:
@AmadiTalks eddie izzard is a transvestite. the hot mess in that picture is a tranny. (link) note

That just bothered me. There are a lot of names and words that you could sub into that sentence, and it would be just as ugly. The ______ is a _____ and s/he's okay, but _____ (who is the same thing) isn't okay, and therefore s/he's a [insert slur here]" idea doesn't sit well with me. It's a justification argument. And in this case, it's particularly off-putting because the justification here is that the person in that photo wasn't visually pleasing in their efforts at wearing female dress, so on that wholly subjective basis, it was "appropriate" to Rob to call zie by that ugly, belittling, insulting word.

And that? Isn't cool. It's not cool for transpeople (of any stripe), or gay people, or people of color or anyone else, and it's especially uncool coming from a person of privilege. (In this case, cisgendered heterosexual privilege.) So I twittered back.
@ThisIsRobThomas By that logic if my looks/speech/whatever displease you, you're "justified" in calling me a nigger. A slur's a slur. (link)

And it's true. Chris Rock had a whole bit in his comedy routine for a long time about the "difference" between black people and niggers. And it all came down to subjective judgments of how people look/dress, how they speak, and what they did. It was justification. And he was wrong. But it was Chris Rock. And like it or not, when the slurs are coming from "within" it's a lot different than when they're coming from "without." If Dane Cook had started spouting off about black people vs. niggers, the response would've been very different, and it should have been.

But more to the point, Rock was right, in that the line between acceptable and not acceptable, between "Appropriate Minority We'll Support (but not too much)" and "Inappropriate Minority Who Can Be Belittled" is entirely in the eye of the beholder. But I'm not particularly willing, especially when that belittling is happening in a public forum, to stand idly by and let it happen without speaking up. And that's what I did today, and yet, I don't feel any better for it. Probably because Rob's response to me was:
@ AmadiTalks careful. that chip on your shoulder may tip you over. (link)

Ignore, deflect, make it about me and not about him, the typical behavior of someone who has been called out and told that they've said something bigoted. (As we've seen time and again during RaceFail '09.)

At that point, [journalfen.net profile] jackandahat [JournalFen] got involved and went back and forth with Rob a bit, defending me and the point, and eventually got a pseudo-apology out of Rob (and no admission that he was wrong) but not before Rob said:
@JackAndAHat you DON'T choose to be gay. you DON'T choose your ethnicity. you CHOOSE to put on high heels. medgar evers rolls in grave. (link)

Do you see what he did there? Because I brought, for better or worse, race into the mix, he decided to namecheck Medgar Evers, a Black civil rights leader who was assassinated in 1963 for his work for the cause of equality.

As if Medgar Evers would be on the side of someone using disparaging language to denigrate a marginalized person.

FAIL.


My follow-up response to his last reply to me got eaten by Twitter (some things are being "eaten" by the database in the last 36 hours or so) but it still lives in my Twhirl buffer. I said:
I do have a huge chip on my shoulder. It comes from privileged people who use their power to aid oppression of disadvantaged minorities.

And now I'm sitting here with a very sour taste in my mouth. I liked Rob. I liked his silly, peek into the every day life, occasionally overly-revelatory twitterings. I've liked his music. But now? I'm not following him on twitter any more and I've moved his songs out of my main playlist. Maybe one day I'll be able to come back to them. Maybe even one day I'll come back to him. But for the moment, I don't want anything to do with him. Such is the downside of having "too much" access to someone essentially inaccessible. You find out that they're a bit too human, and all the shine is immediately extinguished.

Eddie Izzard is, himself, on Twitter now. I was very tempted to @reply to him asking him if he approves of cisgendered people using that slur and then invoking his name in the way that Thomas did, but I didn't think it was a good idea to drag him into the middle of it, and if I'm honest, I was afraid of his answer. Back to main text.

Date: 2009-03-18 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackandahat [journalfen.net]
*Sigh*. Just... sigh. You put it a lot better than I did. But this has pissed me off.

But the thing is, it's not about someone being "too human". Because acting in a manner that says "I'm OK with prejudice going on" isn't human, it's wankerish.

I do see what you mean there - we learn way more than we would in other ways. Not that I don't think people "consider" what they have to say on Twitter, but maybe less so than an interview, and maybe more importantly, on a lot of different topics as and when they come up.

Unfortunately, this then reveals just how many people do feel/think/act this way.

I'm still reading because I'm curious if anything further will come up - for example, if he'll reply to my reply to his "apology". But yeah, it's a real turn-off to find out someone thinks that way.

As for Eddie Izzard, I like to think he would have a cool response (a) Because he's intelligent, and b) because seriously, glass houses), but... there's always the off chance, and so you do end up afraid of the answer.

Date: 2009-03-18 08:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amadi [journalfen.net]
My fear with Eddie is that he'd be indifferent on the grounds of "people will call me/us whatever they want, you have to let it go" line of thinking, and in that indifference, people who have the huge blind spot that Rob does will think that it's okay because someone who should/could be insulted by the word doesn't care.

I just thought it was very uncool for him to namecheck Eddie that way, though. And 20/20 hindsight/l'esprit d'escalier is making me want to back up and take the tack "I honestly dare you, if you think saying that is okay, to walk up and say it to the face of the next person you see who makes you think it." Put your money where your mouth is.

Date: 2009-03-18 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackandahat [journalfen.net]
Yeah - the danger with people who "don't care" is that others take them as speaking for everyone.

Also... I don't think you can compare the two things. I mean, Eddie could choose not to dress up. Someone who has a medical condition can't choose not to have it (and that's how I view transsexuality, I know other people have different views). So being called out on something you can change/did choose is different to when it's something you can't help. (That's come up before - the reason I dressed like I did in high school was because it was much less painful to have someone calling me a goth, and harassing me for that, than calling me a cripple.)

But yeah - a lot of people are amazingly brave when they're with friends/behind a computer screen/whispering. But face to face, it's very different.

Date: 2009-03-18 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amadi [journalfen.net]
Right, in fact, Eddie twittered a few hours ago about how he's not dressing up right now, he's in "boy mode" and is staying there for "strategic" (read: political, he's probably going to run for Parliament) reasons. There is a lot of murky area in the world of gender, but the thing which makes transsexual people transsexual is the fact that they can't make that choice any more than I can stop being black or queer.

And in this instance, we don't know how the person in that photo identifies. We don't know who the person in that photo is. Someone who knows them/had access to their picture held them up for ridicule and Rob went right along with it. Encouraged it. It's all a fuck-up of pretty serious proportions when you think about it from their perspective. They've been publicly made sport of and don't even know it.

Date: 2009-03-18 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackandahat [journalfen.net]
*Nods* My guess from the photo was that it was a joke thing. But we don't know that. All we know is how people have reacted to it - and in this case, in a very uncool manner.

But yeah - being able to make a choice about how you are seen (and thus control people's reactions to you) gives you power. Not having that choice... yeah.

Date: 2009-03-18 09:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darknightjess [journalfen.net]
It sucks when someone you like/admire/look up to/or just enjoy their craft turns out to be a tool, even if they're just acting like one.

Gah..

Date: 2009-03-18 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amadi [journalfen.net]
As I said elsewhere, I like his music. I'd like to like him as a person, but now that's pretty much impossible, and in the bargain I'm not much interested in his music right now either. But I'm not holding him to a higher standard, though, than I hold anyone. If I found out that someone on JF or one of my neighbors or family members used that kind of language, I'd school them too. And if they were as recalcitrant about their right to show their ass as Rob was, I'd be done with them too.

Date: 2009-05-09 12:05 am (UTC)
parlance: (timb)
From: [personal profile] parlance
I'm generally on hiatus, but as we've just friended each other, I browsed through a couple of your older posts. And holy steaming piles of *crap*, Rob Thomas!

I've had my share of FailInteractions with a celeb, including TwitterFail, so I get the disappointment and anger. There's both good and bad in these celebs posting without the aid of a filter.

Date: 2009-05-09 12:21 am (UTC)
parlance: (timb)
From: [personal profile] parlance
I hear you. Sometimes I want to yell, "he's not who you think he is!"

The Medgar Evers name-check just makes me want to punch him in the throat.
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